Forums:About the Eotheod, Vidumavi etc.

2022-03-21T21:45:10Z

141.101.76.52:

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== Lords of the Eotheod, Vidumavi, etc. ==

1) I see that in the article about [[Frumgar]], the assumption that Frumgar is a grandson of Forthwini seems to be taken as a given, even though I was unable to find a source to corroborate this.

:It was understandable that you could not find a source in works that were written by J.R.R. Tolkien for the statement that Frumgar was the grandson of Forthwini, because J.R.R. Tolkien never wrote who his father or grandfather were. I added an article by Michael Martinez from his Middle-earth blog where he explains based on which sources he bases his speculation on that Frumgar could have been the grandson of Forthwini. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhorahil]] 17:24, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

2) [[Vidumavi]]'s death date is given as {{TA|1344}}, even though it was emended to {{TA|1332}} (which also makes far more sense, since the former date would have her live to probably about 110+, even though she is not a Numenorean).

:I could not find a source for year of birth of Vidumavi in works that were written by J.R.R. Tolkien. There are only two versions of her year of death in The Peoples of Middle-earth. As a consequence, any speculation how many years she was old when she died is just a speculation. We only know from POME that "she lived to a great age, as such was reckoned among her people". We know from appendix A that Valacar was sent to Rhovanion in 1250. We know from manuscript C of The Heirs of Elendil from POME that Eldacar, the son of Valacar and Vidumavi was born in 1255. Assuming when a woman is able to conceive children we can only guess how old Vidumavi was when she married Valacar. The two years of death of Vidumavi are from The Making of Appendix A from POME from the Note on the expansion of the tale of the Kin-strife in the Second Edition. Based on the later year of death, Vidumavi died 89 years after the year of birth of her son Eldacar and based on the earlier year of death, Vidumavi died 77 years after the year of birth of her son Eldacar. I agree, that the year 1332 is probably more realistic, if one takes the above average age of death of women in our age as a guideline. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhorahil]] 17:24, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

3) It seems generally assumed that [[Marhari]], the father of the first Lord of the Eotheod, is a descendant of some '''other''' child of [[Vidugavia]]. However, it is stated in ''[[The Peoples of Middle-earth]]'' that Vidumavi and Valacar had, in addition to [[Eldacar]], other children; and given the fact that as evidenced by the kingship of [[Rohan]] being able to pass on to the children of the previous king's sister (for example, in the case of Frealaf and Eomer), is it not reasonable to assume that such a custom existed during the time of the Rohirrim's ancestors as well?

: Long story short, Marhari (and the rest of his descendants - i.e. Lords of the Eotheod and the Kings of Rohan) could be the descendants of Vidumavi's other children, even though they usually seem to be presented as descendants of some other child of Vidugavia (as is the case here at TG, as well as on Encyclopedia of Arda).

::P.S. If I have missed something, some quote or reference, please feel free to correct me! [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] 17:39, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

:: I agree with Michael Martinez, that J.R.R. Tolkien would have probably mentioned it, if a king or chieftain of the Éothéod would not have been the son of the king or chieftain that he succeeded. We know from the first paragraph of II The House of Eorl from Appendix A that "the forefathers of Eorl claimed descent from kings of Rhovanion, whose realm lay beyond Mirkwood before the invasions of the Wainriders, and thus they accounted themselves kinsmen of the kings of Gondor descended from Eldacar". They could still consider themselves kinsmen of the kings of Gondor, descended from Eldacar, if they were descended from another child of Vidugavia and not from Vidumavi, because they would still be related to Eldacar and thus would still be "kin" (i.e. part of the same family). The lords of the Éothéod could be descended from another son of daugther of Vidumavi and still be kinsmen of the descendants of Eldacar. I think that J.R.R. Tolkien would have explicitly mentioned if the lords of the Éothéod would claim descent from a king of Gondor and thus descent from a Númenorean or half-Númenorean. For example J.R.R. Tolkien mentioned that the father of Théoden married Morwen of Lossarnach who was from Gondor and even descended from the Númenoreans of Dol Amroth. In Appendix A and in The Line of Elros in UT he usually mentions if a king died childless and if the next king was the nephew or some other relative. I believe, if he did not mention anything else about a king (e.g. Kings of Gondor or Kings of Númenor), then the king was the son of the king that he succeeded. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhorahil]] 17:24, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

::: Descent from Elendil is ''always'' a big deal for JRRT. I concur with Akhorahil that JRRT would have described Marhari as a descendant of Valacar if he were intended to be so. I took the liberty of clarifying that the familial relationship between Forthwini and Frumgar is a matter of speculation in their respective articles. --[[Special:Contributions/Mord|Mord]] 07:23, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

::::I agree. J.R.R. Tolkien was very clear in matters of genealogy and especially related to royal families. For example take [[Angamaitë]] and [[Sangahyando]], even though they do not play large roles in the lengendarium but still they were descrided as members of [[House of Anarion]] then how can he forget ancestors of the great [[Kings of Rohan]]. Either way they were descendents of [[Vidugavia]] and akin to the [[Kings of Gondor]] and thus akin to [[Chieftains of the Dunedain]].--Shivam 11:57, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

== Eotheod Location ==
I hope it's okay I use this thread. The entry on the [[Éothéod]] states that the Éothéod settle on the eastern bank of the River Anduin (after their expulsion from Rhovanion). However, if my edition of the "Unfinished Tales" is correct, they settle mainly on the western bank. Am I missing something? Or is that an error in the entry? [[Special:Contributions/141.101.76.52|141.101.76.52]] 21:45, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

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Forums:About the Eotheod, Vidumavi etc.