Tolkien Gateway - User contributions [en]

Talk:Orcs

2015-03-04T11:55:17Z

58.174.17.138:

The following external links no longer work:

The Origin of the Orcs (htm version)
The Origin of the Orcs (doc version)
The Origin of the Orcs (pdf version)

I got: The webpage cannot be found {{unsigned|71.173.181.175}}

:I solved the problem by deleting it :). It was inappropriate anyway, and the whole article needs to be rewritten. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 10:51, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
::Which article? [[User:Sage|Sage]] 12:25, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
:::Oh this article. Too much work to be done by 1.5 persons (= I am doing 0.4 of your work and the rest 0.1 belongs to occasional contributors) [[User:Sage|Sage]] 12:27, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
::::I won't be doing much either. Just got an angry email that there was a deadline last week. So I got to focus on that first -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 12:51, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
:::::That's my point... where can we find more contributors? :) [[User:Sage|Sage]] 17:55, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I edited the "Orcs and Goblins" section heavily to remove unfounded comments about "goblins" being a Hobbitish term when it is, in fact, an English word. I also cut down on some unfounded claims in the "Controversy" section. [[User:Eldorion|Eldorion]]

There needs to be a serious section in this article about the culture and ethics of Orcs, and whether Orcs are ultimately free to choose good or evil. I've seen other wikis touch on this issue, but this article barely does. A lot of people (myself included) have never been thrilled about the whole "evil race" concept played completely straight. 
As an entirely personal belief (not something I would expect to put in the article), I think Orcs have the ability to live as good [[Avari]], and that it's the established traditions of Orc culture that inspire evil, and that Elves who do evil and ill-inspired acts (such as [[Fëanor]] and [[Sons of Fëanor|his sons]] along with [[Eöl]] and [[Maeglin]]) essentially make themselves Orcs, and that the difference of appearance between Elves and Orcs ("fair" vs. "ugly") is ultimately meaningless. The [[Silmarils]] knew the difference, and they burned evil and corruption when it touched them. I'm not sure Tolkien would completely disagree, as he once said, "We were all Orcs in the Great War." But I digress... - [[User:Gilgamesh|Gilgamesh]] 12:12, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

:I just (4/5/2011) summarized Letter 153 (a very long summary) for the Tolkien Gateway, wherein Tolkien dug very deeply into the metaphysics of Middle-earth. On the subject of Orcs, innate Free Will, their "evil race" status, and such, this letter probably gives Tolkien's "clearest" answers. -- Gamling 01:07, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

== Origin ==

I just would like to ask an question in regards to the origin of the orcs. First off I have no preferance either way, be it men or elves, but I would like to raise the point of time. Men awoke at the rising of the sun, so wouldn't this then pose a problem for Melkor when he made the orcs in the first war in Beleriand, for the sake of the elves.? Unless he can time shift and or travel. So then we are left with a rather interesting situation, any thoughts? {{unsigned|GaiusMarius}}

:Sorry, you've lost me? Do you mean that as Melkor created orcs in opposition to elves he had no "opposite" to men? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:09, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

: This is not an issue. In Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed (where Tolkien writes at length concerning the cosmology of Arda, and the origins of Orcs), Tolkien shifts the timeline to move the awakening of Men to be not long after that of Elves - during the Great March. This is actually done for other reasons, but serves to enable Men as a legitimate source for Orcs. Sorry for being anon, but I don't feel like signing up for an account. Find me as Túrin at lotrplaza.com if you want. {{unsignedAnon|24.176.44.61}}

: Sorry, but this is still a GREAT issue, not resolved by just simply changing the timeline. If men awoke at such an early time, it makes no sense that when the Noldor returned to Middle-Earth, Beleriand wasn't full of human kingdoms already, and that men had such a primitive culture. The episode of Finrod being the first Noldo to befriend men would make no sense, for example, neither his special bond with Beor's house (with all the consequences that would have in later tales). A major reworking of the legends would be needed just to fit this version of the origin of the orcs. {{unsignedAnon|95.22.52.196}}

::It is indeed an issue that this article makes the unequivocal statement it does. As pointed out above, Tolkien's changing ideas about the origins of orcs are discussed in Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, and the article needs to mention these various ideas.--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 22:48, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

==Etymology and Names==

JRRT notes the Nandorin word for orcs in PE17 (p. 54) '''''ūriƒ'''''. However, I'm uncertain about how to the render the last letter in the word - the original form of the letter is similar, but does not carry the small horizontal line. Is this a letter of its own, or merely a variant rendering of ƒ? --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 01:24, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

:There is the "[[wikipedia:Long s|long s]]" ''ſ'' (and [[wikipedia:Esh (letter)|the similar Esh]] ''ʃ''). Do these seem likely? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:41, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

::Many thanks, Mith! It's the Esh (''ʃ'') - could you please add it to the insert box? --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 09:43, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

:::Added both.--{{User:Mith/sig}} 10:07, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

== Orc - Rohirric or Westron ==

Quote: "This '''spelling''' was taken from Old English. The word seemed, in itself, very suitable to the creatures that I had in mind. But the Old English orc in meaning - so far as that is known - is not suitable. Also the spelling of what, in the later more organized linguistic situation, must have been a '''Common Speech''' form of a word or group of similar words should be ork."

Quote: "Orc. This is supposed to be the '''Common Speech''' name of these creatures at that time; it should therefore according to the system be translated into English, or the language of translation. It was translated 'goblin' in The Hobbit, except in one place; but this word, and other words of similar sense in other European languages (as far as I know), are not really suitable. The orc in The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion, though of course partly made out of traditional features, is not really comparable in supposed origin, functions, and relation to the Elves. In any case orc seemed to me, and seems, in sound a good name for these creatures. It should be '''retained'''."

Orc, or rather, the spelling of Orc is '''FROM''' Old English in reality, and the word itself was Westron in Middle-earth, '''NOT''' Rohirric, so I conclude.

It´s not like the other OE-for-Rohirric words in the LotR. Tolkien just '''retained''' this word from Westron, and where he did translate this 3rd age word, he translated it into Modern English.--[[User:SUM EGO|SUM EGO]] 06:37, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

:I just found the quote for orc being (also?) Rohirric, "Orc is the form of the name that other races had for this foul people as it was in the language of Rohan."
:I undid my previous edit, and I'm sorry for it, but still I think the '''Orcs and Goblins''' section need to be improved.--[[User:SUM EGO|SUM EGO]] 07:25, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

::OK, good.--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 13:01, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Seems like I have to put more source to support my argument.

"Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin ... Orc is the hobbits' form of the name given at that time to these creatures, and it is not connected at all with our orc, ork..." --- The Hobbit

Still no one try to rewrite the '''Orcs and Goblins''' section?

== "Gong" redirect link ==
Since the [[Gongs]] have their own article, could it be possible to change the redirect link on [[Gong]] to lead to ''that'' page, instead? [[User:Bauglir100|Bauglir100]] 12:50, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

:Done. Although whether Gongs needs a separate article needs to be established, but in the meantime we should be consistent in any case. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 13:08, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

== Removed something unsourced ==

I have removed the following:

"This was evidently mainly to avoid the form ''Orcish'', which would be naturally pronounced with the c as /s/ instead of /k/. (In [[Languages|Tolkien's languages]] the letter ''c'' was always pronounced /k/.) "

Proclaiming the Orcish should be pronounced with an /s/ is, I think, wrong. That may be the common pronunciation in Latin-derived English words, but Orc is supposed to be a Sindarin word and Tolkien can transliterate it however he likes.

Talk:Orcs

2015-03-04T11:53:35Z

58.174.17.138:

The following external links no longer work:

The Origin of the Orcs (htm version)
The Origin of the Orcs (doc version)
The Origin of the Orcs (pdf version)

I got: The webpage cannot be found {{unsigned|71.173.181.175}}

:I solved the problem by deleting it :). It was inappropriate anyway, and the whole article needs to be rewritten. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 10:51, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
::Which article? [[User:Sage|Sage]] 12:25, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
:::Oh this article. Too much work to be done by 1.5 persons (= I am doing 0.4 of your work and the rest 0.1 belongs to occasional contributors) [[User:Sage|Sage]] 12:27, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
::::I won't be doing much either. Just got an angry email that there was a deadline last week. So I got to focus on that first -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 12:51, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
:::::That's my point... where can we find more contributors? :) [[User:Sage|Sage]] 17:55, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I edited the "Orcs and Goblins" section heavily to remove unfounded comments about "goblins" being a Hobbitish term when it is, in fact, an English word. I also cut down on some unfounded claims in the "Controversy" section. [[User:Eldorion|Eldorion]]

There needs to be a serious section in this article about the culture and ethics of Orcs, and whether Orcs are ultimately free to choose good or evil. I've seen other wikis touch on this issue, but this article barely does. A lot of people (myself included) have never been thrilled about the whole "evil race" concept played completely straight. 
As an entirely personal belief (not something I would expect to put in the article), I think Orcs have the ability to live as good [[Avari]], and that it's the established traditions of Orc culture that inspire evil, and that Elves who do evil and ill-inspired acts (such as [[Fëanor]] and [[Sons of Fëanor|his sons]] along with [[Eöl]] and [[Maeglin]]) essentially make themselves Orcs, and that the difference of appearance between Elves and Orcs ("fair" vs. "ugly") is ultimately meaningless. The [[Silmarils]] knew the difference, and they burned evil and corruption when it touched them. I'm not sure Tolkien would completely disagree, as he once said, "We were all Orcs in the Great War." But I digress... - [[User:Gilgamesh|Gilgamesh]] 12:12, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

:I just (4/5/2011) summarized Letter 153 (a very long summary) for the Tolkien Gateway, wherein Tolkien dug very deeply into the metaphysics of Middle-earth. On the subject of Orcs, innate Free Will, their "evil race" status, and such, this letter probably gives Tolkien's "clearest" answers. -- Gamling 01:07, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

== Origin ==

I just would like to ask an question in regards to the origin of the orcs. First off I have no preferance either way, be it men or elves, but I would like to raise the point of time. Men awoke at the rising of the sun, so wouldn't this then pose a problem for Melkor when he made the orcs in the first war in Beleriand, for the sake of the elves.? Unless he can time shift and or travel. So then we are left with a rather interesting situation, any thoughts? {{unsigned|GaiusMarius}}

:Sorry, you've lost me? Do you mean that as Melkor created orcs in opposition to elves he had no "opposite" to men? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:09, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

: This is not an issue. In Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed (where Tolkien writes at length concerning the cosmology of Arda, and the origins of Orcs), Tolkien shifts the timeline to move the awakening of Men to be not long after that of Elves - during the Great March. This is actually done for other reasons, but serves to enable Men as a legitimate source for Orcs. Sorry for being anon, but I don't feel like signing up for an account. Find me as Túrin at lotrplaza.com if you want. {{unsignedAnon|24.176.44.61}}

: Sorry, but this is still a GREAT issue, not resolved by just simply changing the timeline. If men awoke at such an early time, it makes no sense that when the Noldor returned to Middle-Earth, Beleriand wasn't full of human kingdoms already, and that men had such a primitive culture. The episode of Finrod being the first Noldo to befriend men would make no sense, for example, neither his special bond with Beor's house (with all the consequences that would have in later tales). A major reworking of the legends would be needed just to fit this version of the origin of the orcs. {{unsignedAnon|95.22.52.196}}

::It is indeed an issue that this article makes the unequivocal statement it does. As pointed out above, Tolkien's changing ideas about the origins of orcs are discussed in Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, and the article needs to mention these various ideas.--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 22:48, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

==Etymology and Names==

JRRT notes the Nandorin word for orcs in PE17 (p. 54) '''''ūriƒ'''''. However, I'm uncertain about how to the render the last letter in the word - the original form of the letter is similar, but does not carry the small horizontal line. Is this a letter of its own, or merely a variant rendering of ƒ? --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 01:24, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

:There is the "[[wikipedia:Long s|long s]]" ''ſ'' (and [[wikipedia:Esh (letter)|the similar Esh]] ''ʃ''). Do these seem likely? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:41, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

::Many thanks, Mith! It's the Esh (''ʃ'') - could you please add it to the insert box? --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 09:43, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

:::Added both.--{{User:Mith/sig}} 10:07, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

== Orc - Rohirric or Westron ==

Quote: "This '''spelling''' was taken from Old English. The word seemed, in itself, very suitable to the creatures that I had in mind. But the Old English orc in meaning - so far as that is known - is not suitable. Also the spelling of what, in the later more organized linguistic situation, must have been a '''Common Speech''' form of a word or group of similar words should be ork."

Quote: "Orc. This is supposed to be the '''Common Speech''' name of these creatures at that time; it should therefore according to the system be translated into English, or the language of translation. It was translated 'goblin' in The Hobbit, except in one place; but this word, and other words of similar sense in other European languages (as far as I know), are not really suitable. The orc in The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion, though of course partly made out of traditional features, is not really comparable in supposed origin, functions, and relation to the Elves. In any case orc seemed to me, and seems, in sound a good name for these creatures. It should be '''retained'''."

Orc, or rather, the spelling of Orc is '''FROM''' Old English in reality, and the word itself was Westron in Middle-earth, '''NOT''' Rohirric, so I conclude.

It´s not like the other OE-for-Rohirric words in the LotR. Tolkien just '''retained''' this word from Westron, and where he did translate this 3rd age word, he translated it into Modern English.--[[User:SUM EGO|SUM EGO]] 06:37, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

:I just found the quote for orc being (also?) Rohirric, "Orc is the form of the name that other races had for this foul people as it was in the language of Rohan."
:I undid my previous edit, and I'm sorry for it, but still I think the '''Orcs and Goblins''' section need to be improved.--[[User:SUM EGO|SUM EGO]] 07:25, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

::OK, good.--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 13:01, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Seems like I have to put more source to support my argument.

"Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin ... Orc is the hobbits' form of the name given at that time to these creatures, and it is not connected at all with our orc, ork..." --- The Hobbit

Still no one try to rewrite the '''Orcs and Goblins''' section?

== "Gong" redirect link ==
Since the [[Gongs]] have their own article, could it be possible to change the redirect link on [[Gong]] to lead to ''that'' page, instead? [[User:Bauglir100|Bauglir100]] 12:50, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

:Done. Although whether Gongs needs a separate article needs to be established, but in the meantime we should be consistent in any case. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 13:08, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

== Removed something unsourced ==

I have removed the following:

"This was evidently mainly to avoid the form ''Orcish'', which would be naturally pronounced with the c as /s/ instead of /k/. (In [[Languages|Tolkien's languages]] the letter ''c'' was always pronounced /k/.) "

Proclaiming the Orcish should be pronounced with an /s/, that may be the common pronunciation in Latin-derived English words, but Orc is supposed to be a Sindarin word and Tolkien can transliterate it however he likes.

Orcs

2015-03-04T11:48:50Z

58.174.17.138: This does not make sense, I will elaborate on the talk page.

{{rewrite}}{{sources}}
{{race
| image=[[File:John Howe - In Mordor.jpg|250px]]
| name= Orcs
| dominions=[[Mordor]], [[Angband]], [[Misty Mountains]], [[Mount Gundabad]], [[Angmar]], [[Utumno]]
| languages= [[Black Speech]]; numerous [[Orkish]] languages of their own
| height= generally around 3 1/2' or 4',<ref>{{FR|II5}} The ''Huge'' orc-chieftain is described as ''almost man high''</ref>
| length=
| skincolor= Sallow, Green, Brown, Grey
| haircolor=
| feathers=
| distinctions= Short, sallow
| lifespan= Unknown, but probably immortal or at least very long lives <ref>{{S|3}}</ref><ref>http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Orcs#Lifespan</ref>
| members=[[Othrod]], [[Azog]], [[Bolg]], [[Gorbag]]
}}
'''Orcs''' (also called '''[[Orcs#Orcs and Goblins|Goblins]]''') were the footsoldiers of evil overlords - [[Morgoth]], [[Sauron]] and the [[Witch-king]] of [[Angmar]].

==History==
===Origins and early Years===

The Orcs were bred by [[Morgoth|Melkor]] in mockery of the [[Elves]], sometime during the [[The Darkness#The Great Darkness|Great Darkness]].<ref>{{S|3}}</ref><ref>{{TT|III4}}</ref>

[[File:John Howe - Orc Swordsman.jpg|thumb|200px|right|[[John Howe]] - ''Orc Swordsman'']]

It is unclear exactly when Orcs were created, but it certainly happened before the [[War for Sake of the Elves]] in his stronghold of Utumno. Whether the Orcs were at this time a capable fighting force against the host of Valinor is not known. But at least some of them survived this war, probably hidden in the deep vaults of [[Angband]], and multiplied, waiting for their master.

When Melkor (now known as [[Morgoth]]) returned to Middle-earth, he created new hordes of Orcs and invaded [[Beleriand]], where the [[First Battle of Beleriand]] took place. Orcs also fought in [[Dagor-nuin-Giliath]].

===First Age===
Orcs appear in the [[First Age]] as the core force of [[Morgoth]]. Hundreds of thousands of Orcs were bred in [[Angband]] to participate in the [[Battles of Beleriand]], which lasted 587 years.

Orcs first appear in the [[First Age]] in the [[Battle of the Lammoth]], where they were defeated by [[Fingolfin]] and his [[Noldor]]. Orcs participated in battles such as the [[Dagor Aglareb]], [[Dagor Bragollach]], [[Nirnaeth Arnoediad]], [[Fall of the Falas]], and finally in the [[War of Wrath]], where they were almost extinguished. Those that survived the defeat fled eastwards and hid probably in the Mountains of [[Angmar]] and the [[Ered Mithrin]].

===Second Age===
Around the year {{SA|1000}} Sauron reappeared, took the land of [[Mordor]] as his realm and started the construction of [[Barad-dûr]]. It is likely that most of his servants were Orcs at this time that he had gathered under his command. Still for a long time Sauron's foul servants did not play an important role, for the Dark Lord had chosen a more subtle way to overthrow the free people by creating the [[Rings of Power]].

During the [[War of the Elves and Sauron]], in {{SA|1700}} Orcs formed the main power of Sauron's host. Despite the immeasurable number of Orcs, Sauron was defeated by the united hosts of Elves and [[Númenóreans]]. Still Sauron was powerful east of the [[Misty Mountains]] and the Orcs that inhabited the mountains and the eastern lands multiplied.

The [[Orcs of the Misty Mountains]] started a war against the [[Dwarves]], resulting in the [[First Sack of Gundabad]] and its occupation by the Orcs. Finally, Orcs were the core force of [[Sauron]] during the [[War of the Last Alliance]], and fought in great battles such as the [[Battle of Dagorlad]] and the [[Siege of Barad-dûr]].

===Third Age===
[[File:Richard Sullivan - Orc.jpg|thumb|left|Richard Sullivan - ''Orc'']]
During the [[Third Age]], Orcs were the standard troops of the [[Witch-king]] of [[Angmar]] and [[Sauron]] (both in [[Mordor]] and in [[Dol Guldur]]).

In [[Angmar]], Orcs fought in the [[Angmar War]]. Years later, they invaded [[Eriador]] under the leadership of the [[Necromancer]].

The [[Orcs of the Misty Mountains]], one of the few (more or less) independent Orcish societies, and their leader [[Azog]] started out the [[War of the Dwarves and Orcs]], and after their defeat they retreated in their caves. They appeared again in {{TA|2941}}, when the [[Battle of Five Armies]] took place.

The [[Orcs of Mordor]] fought in major battles during the [[War of the Ring]], such as the [[Battle of the Pelennor Fields]], but the majority of [[Mordor]]'s forces were destroyed or scattered at the [[Battle of the Morannon]]. Sporadic fighting in the following weeks led to the Orcs finally being driven out of the western end of Mordor, though it is unclear how many Orcs Sauron had in his armies, and it is also unclear how many survived after his defeat.

The Orcs in [[Dol Guldur]] remained in [[Mirkwood]] until the [[Fall of Dol Guldur]], one of the last battles of the War of the Ring.

===Fourth Age and beyond===
The fate of the Orcs after the Third Age is unknown. Though many of Sauron's Orcs fought on and were slain in the weeks following the Battle of the Morannon, the true number of Sauron's hosts is unclear, as are the numbers of Orcs not within Mordor that may still inhabit the rest of Middle-earth. It is at least known that the Orcs of Moria either fled or were slain by the Fourth Age, as it is mentioned that the Dwarves managed to retake Moria and the mines within it.

==Characteristics==

===Culture===

It is certain all Orcs were dependent on the Dark Lord in various ways: after their leader was defeated, the Orcs were confused and dismayed, and easily scattered by their enemies. In the millennia after Morgoth's defeat and banishment from Arda, they were without a leader and they degenerated to small, quarrelsome tribes hiding in the [[Misty Mountains]]. Only when Sauron returned to power did they begin to reclaim some of their old power. The same happened after Sauron's defeat by the [[Last Alliance of Elves and Men]]: only when Sauron returned as the Necromancer of [[Mirkwood]] did the Orcs become a real danger for Middle-earth again.

It is interesting to note that to an extent, Tolkien did not regard Orcs as evil in their own right, but only as tools of Melkor and Sauron.

===Lifespan===

It is unknown if the Orcs were immortal like the Elves. There is, in any case, a hint for a long lifespan in the story of two of the most famous Orc-chieftains: [[Azog]] and [[Bolg]]. Bolg, being the son of Azog, was the chieftain of the Orcs who attacked Erebor in the Battle of Five Armies in {{TA|2941}}. Azog himself was killed in the Battle of Azanulbizar in {{TA|2799}}, so Bolg was aproximately 150 years old.

===Appearance===

In Tolkien's writing, Orcs are smaller in stature than Men. One "huge orc-chieftain" is "almost Man-high", but others must have been of a similar size to Hobbits (Frodo and Sam succeeded in disguising themselves as Orcs in Mordor). They had long arms and fanged mouths. Some had black skin. Some had short, crooked legs. They had black blood.{{fact}}

===Kinds of Orcs===
The Fellowship usually encountered the large soldier-Orcs bred for war, and sometimes the "snaga" variety which were more geared towards being labourers. Another type is referred to as "snufflers", smaller, black-skinned Orcs with wide nostrils, who excelled in tracking. Despite the smaller size, one snuffler was able to skillfully kill a soldier-orc when they got into a disagreement.<ref name="Cirith">{{RK|VI1}}</ref>

*[[Snaga]]
*[[Snufflers]]
*[[Orcs of Mordor]]
*[[Orcs of the Misty Mountains]]
*[[Half-orcs]] (and [[Goblin-men]])
*[[Uruk-hai]]
*[[Hobgoblins]]

[[File:Darek Zabrocki - Goblins.jpg|thumb|250px|'''Goblins''' by Darek Zabrocki.]]

===Orcs and Goblins===

The term ''goblin'' was used primarily in ''[[The Hobbit]]'' but also in ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' where it is used synonymously with "Orc".<ref>{{TT|III1}}</ref><ref>{{HM|RC}}, p. 24</ref>

"Goblin" is an English word, whereas "Orc" is Old English, the language used by Tolkien to represent Rohirric.<ref>{{App|F1iv}}</ref> Thus, there is no difference between Orcs and Goblins.

The original edition of ''The Hobbit'' and early drafts of ''The Lord of the Rings'' first used "goblin" everywhere and used "[[Hobgoblins|hobgoblin]]" for larger, more evil goblins: when goblins were replaced with Orcs Tolkien invented the term Uruk-hai for his more evil Orcs.

==Etymology==
{{quote|The word as far as I am concerned actually derived from [[Old English]] ''orc'', demon, but only because of its phonetic suitability.|[[J.R.R. Tolkien]]<ref name=L144/>}}
===Orc===
The word '''''Orc''''' is said to be the "''form of the name that other races had for this foul people as it was in the [[Rohirric|language of Rohan]]''".<ref name=App|F1iv/>

In his late, post-''Lord of the Rings'' writings, Tolkien preferred the spelling '''''Ork'''''.<ref>{{HM|PM}}</ref> It is also possible that the word is a Common Tongue Version of 'orch', the [[Sindarin]] word for Orc. The original sense of the word seems to be "bogey", "bogeyman", that is, something that provokes fear, as seen in the Quenya cognate ''urko'', pl. ''urqui''.{{fact}}

Tolkien derived the word ''orc'' from [[Old English]] believing it refers to a kind of evil spirits,<ref name=L144/><ref>[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], "[[Letter to Gene Wolfe]]" (letter)</ref> which in turn derives from Latin ''Orcus'' "Hades". He also thought it survives in the modern language for sea-beasts,<ref>{{HM|N}}, p. 762</ref> such as the [[Wikipedia:Orca Whale|Orca Whale]].

''Orc'' is an [[Old English]] word that refers mainly to a kind of metal cup (from Latin ''Urceus'').<ref group="note">The word ''Orc'' occurs twice in ''[[Beowulf (poem)|Beowulf]]''.</ref> However, in a 11th century glossary, this entry was conflated with another entry which refers to evil giants such as ''[[Wikipedia:Jötunn|þyrs]]'' and other monsters, also glossed in Latin as ''Orcus''. This merge of the two entries made many philologists of the previous centuries, like Tolkien, to believe that ''Orc'' was an actual Old English word that refers to any kind of evil creature from the underworld.<ref>Bosworth and Toller's ''An Anglo-Saxon Dictionary'' (1898), corrected in later editions</ref>

The word ''Orcnéas'' is once found only in ''[[Beowulf (poem)|Beowulf]]'' (lines 112-113) and is cited as an example of the word "Orc" in Old English text. Actually its meaning is not clear, and it is thought to refer to corpses (''néas'') from the Underworld.

However, it is also mentioned that the word ''Orc'' is Anglo-Saxon for "Foreigner, Monster, Demon" and was used to refer to the Normans invading the Anglish in 1066.<ref>"[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1329539/ 1066 The Battle for Middle Earth]" 2009 (documentary)</ref>
==="Orcs" in Tolkien's languages===
Tolkien said that one of the reason of choosing "Orc" over "Goblin" was the similarity with his fictional languages.<ref name=WJAC>{{WJ|AC}}, pp. 389-91</ref> Indeed most [[Elvish]], [[Mannish]] and other words for Orc, are similar to the English word.

The basic [[Primitive Quendian]] [[Sundocarme|root]], from which the words for Orc derive, is [[RUKU]] (said to refer to any "bogey" that scared the Elves)<ref name=WJAC/>:

*[[Quenya]] '''''orco'''''<ref name=PE17_47/> (pl. '''''Orkor'''''<ref>{{GA|27}}, p. 12</ref><ref>{{HM|MR}}, pp. 74, 194</ref>); [[Exilic Quenya]] '''''urko''''' (pl. '''''orkor''''' and '''''orqui''''')<ref name=WJAC/>
*[[Sindarin]]: '''''orch'''''/'''''Orch''''' (pl. '''''yrch'''''/'''''Yrch''''', class pl. '''''Orchoth'''''/'''''orchoth'''''<ref group="note">''Orchoth'' is likely a compound of ''orch'' + ''[[hoth]]''.</ref>)<ref name=WJAC/><ref name=L144/><ref name=PE17_52-4/><ref name=PE17_47/><ref name=App|F1iv/>; '''''[[glamhoth]]'''''
*[[Nandorin]]: '''''ūriʃ'''''<ref name=PE17_52-4>{{PE|17}}, pp. 52-4</ref>

*[[Adûnaic]]: '''''urku''''', '''''urkhu'''''<ref name=WJAC/>
*[[Westron]]: '''''orka'''''<ref name=PE17_47>{{PE|17}}, p. 47</ref>
*[[Black Speech]]: '''''[[Uruk-hai#Etymology|uruk]]'''''<ref name=App|F1iv>{{App|F1iv}}</ref><ref name=WJAC/><ref name=L144>{{L|144}}</ref><ref name=PE17_47/>
*[[Khuzdul]]: '''''Rukhs''''' (pl. '''''Rakhās'''''), possibly derived from an unknown [[Avarin]] word of the same meaning<ref name=WJAC/><ref group="note">''Rukhs'' appears to contain the radical R-Kh-S.</ref>
*[[Drúadan language]]: '''''gorgûn''''' ("orc-folk"; the form ''gorgûn'' is perhaps plural of an unknown singular form)<ref name=PE17_99>{{PE|17}}, p. 99</ref><ref>{{RK|V5}}</ref><ref name=WJAC/>

In the earliest versions of [[Qenya]], Tolkien had words such as "'''Ork (orq-)''' pl. '''Orqi''' and fem. "'''orqindi'''".{{fact}}

In [[Noldorin]], the earlier version of Sindarin, the word for Orc is the same: ''orch'' (pl ''yrch'').<ref name=LR379>{{LR|Etymologies}}, p. 379 (entry for ÓROK)</ref><ref>{{MR|P3I7}}, p. 195</ref><ref>{{MC|Secret}}, p. 217</ref> The [[Gnomish]] word for "one of a tribe of the orcs. a goblin" is said to be '''''Gong'''''.<ref>{{PE|11}}, p. 41</ref>

*''See also: [[Entish]] ''[[burárum]]''
===Goblin===
''[[Wiktionary:Goblin|Goblin]]'' is a folk word which according to ''The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Current English'' is probably derived from the Anglo-French ''[[Wiktionary:gobelin|gobelin]]'' a diminutive of ''gobel'' (cf. ''[[Wiktionary:kobold|kobold]]''). William D.B. Loos notes that ''goblin'' is a Romance-derived word, unlike other Germanic words preferred by [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]].<ref>William D.B. Loos, [http://tolkien.slimy.com/tfaq/EnemyMisc.html#Orcs Enemies and Miscellaneous: What was the relationship between Orcs and Goblins?] at [http://tolkien.slimy.com/tfaq/ The Tolkien Frequently Asked Questions List] (accessed 3 July 2011)</ref>

==="Goblin" in Tolkien's languages===

In the [[The Etymologies|''Etymologies'']], the Elvish names used to translate "goblin" derive from root [[RUKU#Other versions|ÓROK]] and are:<ref name=LR379>{{LR|Etymologies}}, p. 379 (entry for ÓROK)</ref>

*[[Quenya]]: '''''orko''''' (pl. '''''orqi''''')
*[[Noldorin]]: ''orch'' (pl ''yrch'', archaic ''yrchy''<ref>{{VT|46a}}, p. 7</ref>)
*[[Nandorin|Danian]]: '''''urc''''' (pl. '''''yrc''''')
*[[Doriathrin]]: '''''urch''''' (pl. '''''urchin''''')

In an early linguistic writing, Tolkien translated the [[Gnomish]] word ''Gong'' as "one of a tribe of the orcs. a goblin."<ref>{{PE|11}}, p. 41</ref>

==Other Versions of the Legendarium==

===Origin===
According to the oldest "theory" proposed by Tolkien, Orcs were made of "subterranean heat and slime", and their hearts were stones like granite, through the sorcery of Morgoth.<ref>{{LT2 | III}}, p.159</ref> But, Tolkien later changed the legendarium so that Morgoth could no longer produce life on his own.

While Tolkien originally saw all Orcs as descended from tortured Elves, later comments of his indicate, according to [[Christopher Tolkien]] in ''Morgoth's Ring'' ("Myths Transformed, text X"), that he began to feel uncomfortable with the theory that orcs were descending from Elves. However, Tolkien died before he could complete his upheaval of the cosmology, and in the published version of ''The Silmarillion'', the Elf origin of Orcs was adopted. It does not appear that the elder Tolkien ever decided on a definitive answer. Different origins proposed were: animals that Morgoth infused with reason (Myths Transformed, text VIII), Elves and (later) Men (M.T.,text IX) and "probably" Men (text X).

The origin of Orcs is an open question. In Tolkien's writings, evil is not capable of independent creation, making it unlikely that the [[Valar|Vala]] [[Morgoth|Melkor]], who was obviously the first to produce them, could do that ''ex nihilo''. In ''[[The Silmarillion]]'' is mentioned that the Orcs were transformed from Elves — the purest form of life on [[Arda]] (the Earth) — by means of torture and mutilation; and this "theory" would then become the most popular. There are hints in the ''[[The History of Middle-earth|History of Middle-earth]]'' series of books, (especially in ''[[Morgoth's Ring]]'' in the section "Myths Transformed"), that some Orc leaders, such as the First Age's [[Boldog]], or the [[Great Goblin]] encountered by [[Bilbo Baggins|Bilbo]] and the Dwarves, may in fact have been fallen [[Maiar]] which had taken Orc form.

Yet other Orcs may have begun as animals of vaguely humanoid shapes, empowered by the will of the Dark Lord (first [[Morgoth]], later Sauron): this may explain the references to their "beaks and feathers"{{fact}} in Tolkien's writings.

: ''The Orcs were beasts of humanized shape (…).'' ('Morgoth's Ring', "Myths transformed", text VIII')

==Controversy==
Tolkien's Orcs have been a subject of criticism of [[racism]]. Tolkien described Orcs as "squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types".<ref>{{L|210}}</ref>

==Other writings==
In ''[[The Father Christmas Letters]]'', goblins appear as the enemies of [[Father Christmas]] and the [[Red Elves]].

==Portrayal in Adaptations==
===Orcs===
{{stub}}<gallery>File: The Lord of the Rings (1978 film) - Orcs.jpg|Orcs in [[The Lord of the Rings (1978 film)|''The Lord of the Rings'' (1978 film)]]
File:The Return of the King (1980 film) - Orcs.jpg|Orcs in [[The Return of the King (1980 film)|''The Return of the King'' (1980 film)]]
File:The Lord of the Rings- The Treason of Isengard - Ork.jpg|Concept art of an orc in ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Treason of Isengard]]''
File:The Lord of the Rings War in the North - Orc3.jpg|An Orc in [[Fornost]] in ''[[The Lord of the Rings: War in the North]]''.</gallery>

'''2007: ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]'':'''
:Orc-kind is a genus that include the species of Orc, Goblins, [[Half-orcs]], [[Boggarts]], [[Bugans]] and [[Uruk-hai]].

:Orcs are very common in Middle-earth. They are about the size of a man with a hunchback.

''''2011: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: War in the North]]'':'''
:Orcs are first seen in [[Fornost]], where they immediately attack [[Eradan (video game character)|Eradan]], [[Andriel]] and [[Farin (video game character)|Farin]] on their aproach.<ref>[[The Lord of the Rings: War in the North]], Chapter 1: Fornost, ''Main Gate''</ref> ''Orc wariors'' are stronger then normal Orcs. Some Orcs have been taught [[Magic|sorcery]] by [[Agandaûr]], these are known as ''Orc Sorcerers''.

===Goblins===
<gallery>File:The Hobbit (1977 film) - Goblins.jpg|Goblins in [[The Hobbit (1977 film)|''The Hobbit'' (1977 film)]]
File:The Lord of the Rings War in the North - Goblins1.jpg|Goblins in the pits of [[Fornost]] in ''[[The Lord of the Rings: War in the North]]''
File:The Hobbit - An Unexpected Journey - Goblins.jpg|Goblins in ''[[The Hobbit (film series)|''The Hobbit'' (film series)]]''</gallery>

'''2003: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: War of the Ring]]'':'''
:Goblins have been made clearly distinct from Orcs.

'''2006: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth II]]'':'''
:Goblins have been made clearly distinct from Orcs.

'''2007: ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]'':'''
:Goblins are a separate race and can be found in [[Evendim]], [[the Shire]], [[Ered Luin]], [[Bree-land]], [[Lone-lands]], [[North Downs]], [[Misty Mountains]], [[Angmar]] and [[Moria]]. They are small in stature; a little shorter than [[Hobbits]]. In contrast, Orcs are about the size of [[Men]]. Goblins are also weaker than the orcs.

'''2011: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: War in the North]]'':'''
:Goblins first appear in [[Fornost]], where they attack [[Eradan (video game character)|Eradan]], [[Andriel]] and [[Farin (video game character)|Farin]] immediately when they reach the city.<ref>[[The Lord of the Rings: War in the North]], Chapter 1: Fornost, ''Main Gate''</ref> Goblins are weaker than Orcs.

'''2012: ''[[The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey]]'':'''
:Goblins are again made clearly distinct from Orcs in the film series. They are possibly lesser relatives of Orcs; they are smaller (the very large Great Goblin notwithstanding), less powerful, and generally have pale, diseased skin.

'''2014: ''[[The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies]]'':'''
:A band of "Goblin mercenaries" appear on [[Ravenhill]] during the [[Battle of Five Armies]], but are taken care of by the Dwarves without much trouble.

==See also==
*[[Gongs]]
*[[:Category:Images of Orcs|Images of Orcs]]
*[[:Category:Images of Goblins|Images of Goblins]]

{{references|note}}
[[Category:Orcs| ]]
[[Category:Races]]
[[de:Orks]]
[[fr:encyclo/peuples/orques/orques]]
[[fi:Örkit]]