Tolkien Gateway - User contributions [en]

Fourth Age

2020-11-25T12:11:45Z

75.118.149.152: minor cleanup elsewhere, ref fixes

{{History of Arda}}
The '''Fourth Age''' began after [[Sauron]] was finally defeated, when his [[The One Ring|Ruling Ring]] was destroyed, and the [[Keepers of the Three Rings]] left Middle-earth for the [[Valinor|Uttermost West]].
==Start of the Fourth Age==
The [[Third Age]] was held to have ended when Master Elrond left Middle-earth on [[29 September]] of {{TA|3021}}.<ref name=Calendars>{{App|Calendars}}</ref> However, not all calendars in use in Middle-earth at that time reset their count of years to {{FoA|1}} in the same year, on the same date, or indeed at all. As such, years given for certain events in the Fourth Age differ according to the calendar used.<ref group=note> The discrepancy is noted in the [http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/f/fourthage.html Encyclopedia of Arda]</ref> [[Tolkien Gateway]] follows [[Shire]] usage for all Fourth Age dates.

==Reckoning of years==
The [[Shire Reckoning]] is the calendar system used for all dates in the [[Red Book]]; its epoch {{SR|1}} corresponds to {{TA|1601}}.<ref name=Hobbits>{{FR|Hobbits}}</ref> The Shire Reckoning did not reset its count of years with the end of the Third Age, rather it continued uninterrupted from {{SR|1421}} to {{SR|1422}}, and "in so far as the Hobbits took any account of the change of Age, they maintained that it began with [[2 Yule]] 1422."<ref name=Calendars/> This means that S.R. 1422 is also {{TA|3022}} and Fo.A. 1 as far as dates in the Red Book are concerned.

In [[Gondor]] and the rest of the [[Reunited Kingdom]] outside the Shire, the [[New Reckoning]] calendar entered use starting in {{TA|3019}}. Under this calendar, the year that began on [[25 March]] as T.A. 3021 is also Fo.A. 1.<ref name=Calendars/> As such, T.A. 3022 corresponds to {{FoA|2}} in the New Reckoning, so oftentimes a given date in the Shire will be accounted part of the following year elsewhere in the Reunited Kingdom.

This partial overlap is due to the fact that the [[Shire Calendar]] and the [[New Reckoning]] begin their years on different days: 2 Yule for the Shire and 25 March for the rest of the Reunited Kingdom (as these days are named in the Shire Calendar; their New Reckoning equivalents are 7 [[Narvinyë]] and [[Yestarë]] respectively). Dates on or after 2 Yule and before 25 March count as taking place in the same year of the Fourth Age according to either calendar, but dates on and after 25 March belong to the next year outside the Shire. As such, the death of King [[Elessar]] recorded in the Red Book on [[1 March]] {{SR|1541}} is accounted as having taken place in {{FoA|120}} in both calendars (the New Reckoning names that day 8 [[Súlimë]]).

There are few dates given in the [[Legendarium]] that require the reader to account for this difference, because most dates of the Fourth Age are already explicitly expressed in terms of the Shire Reckoning. For example, [[Legolas]] and [[Gimli]]'s departure from Middle-earth is given as S.R. 1541,<ref name="Later"/> so it can be stated with confidence that their departure took place in Fo.A. 120. (There is ambiguity when determining the year of their departure under the New Reckoning because the day is unknown, but we have no need to make that determination.) The exceptions are both from the [[Note on the Shire Records]] and are as follows:
* Tolkien explains that the text of ''The Lord of the Rings'' descends from a copy of the Red Book made in Gondor that bore the note "Findegil, King’s Writer, finished this work in IV 172."<ref name=Records>{{FR|Records}}</ref> This is presented as a verbatim quote from a Gondorian scribe and the year is not converted to the Shire Reckoning elsewhere in the text. It is therefore assumed that this note was written in regards to the New Reckoning calendar before 7 Narvinyë and accordingly the year is converted to {{FoA|171}}.
* In the same paragraph, Tolkien refers to [[Peregrin Took]]'s retirement to Gondor in "IV 64."<ref name=Records>{{FR|Records}}</ref> We are told elsewhere that Peregrin and his companion [[Meriadoc Brandybuck]] arrived in Gondor sometime between the autumn and the ending of {{SR|1484}}, which is {{FoA|63}} in the Shire Reckoning.<ref name="Later">{{App|Later}}</ref> As such, "IV 64" must refer to a year in the New Reckoning and is accordingly converted to Fo.A. 63.

==History==
There is no information on more than the first few centuries of this age, so it is not known when it ended, if it ever did, although it was probably shorter than 3 millennia.<ref name="Letter211"/>

This age was (presumably) marked by the recovery of the [[Númenor]]ean kingdoms of [[Arnor]] and [[Gondor]], and a flourishing of their subjects, including [[the Shire]] and the [[Hobbits]], while the [[House of Durin]] retook [[Moria]] until the race of [[Dwarves]] failed.<ref>{{PM|Dwarves}}</ref> Eventually that would lead to the final [[Dominion of Men]] over [[Arda]], coming together with the total waning of the [[Elves]] and other dwindling races, such as the [[Ents]] and probably the Dwarves.

The [[Last Ship]] of the [[Elves]], carrying [[Círdan]], [[Celeborn]], and all remaining Elves of the [[First Age]] left Middle-earth some time after {{FoA|171}}.<ref name=Records/>

In a 1972 letter concerning ''[[The New Shadow]]'', Tolkien mentioned that Eldarion's reign would have lasted for about 100 years after the death of Aragorn.<ref name="L338">{{L|338}}</ref>

==Further future?==
Tolkien said that he thought the distance between the end of the Third Age and the 20th century A.D. was about 6000 years, and that in [[1958]] it should have been around the end of the Fifth Age if the Fourth and Fifth Ages were about the same length as the Second and Third Ages. He said, however, in a letter written in 1958 that he believed the Ages had quickened and that it was about the end of the Sixth Age/beginning of the Seventh.<ref name="Letter211">{{L|211}}.</ref>

==See also==
* [[Timeline/Fourth Age|Timeline of the Fourth Age]]
* ''[[The New Shadow]]''

{{references|note}}
[[Category:Ages]]
[[de:Das Vierte Zeitalter]]
[[fr:encyclo/chronologie/quatrieme_age]]
[[fi:Neljäs Aika]]

Fourth Age

2020-11-25T12:03:10Z

75.118.149.152: /* Starting of the Fourth Age */ total rewrite, new section

{{History of Arda}}
The '''Fourth Age''' began after [[Sauron]] was finally defeated, when his [[The One Ring|Ruling Ring]] was destroyed, and the [[Keepers of the Three Rings]] left Middle-earth for the [[Valinor|Uttermost West]].
==Start of the Fourth Age==
The [[Third Age]] was held to have ended when Master Elrond left Middle-earth on [[29 September]] of {{TA|3021}}.<ref name=Calendars>{{App|Calendars}}</ref> However, not all calendars in use in Middle-earth at that time reset their count of years to {{FoA|1}} in the same year, on the same date, or indeed at all. As such, years given for certain events in the Fourth Age differ according to the calendar used.<ref group="Notes"> The discrepancy is noted in the [http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/f/fourthage.html Encyclopedia of Arda]</ref> [[Tolkien Gateway]] follows [[Shire]] usage for all Fourth Age dates.

==Reckoning of years==
The [[Shire Reckoning]] is the calendar system used for all dates in the [[Red Book]]; its epoch {{SR|1}} corresponds to {{TA|1601}}.<ref name=Hobbits>{{FR|Hobbits}}</ref> The Shire Reckoning did not reset its count of years with the end of the Third Age, rather it continued uninterrupted from {{SR|1421}} to {{SR|1422}}, and "in so far as the Hobbits took any account of the change of Age, they maintained that it began with [[2 Yule]] 1422."<ref name=Calendars/> This means that S.R. 1422 is also {{TA|3022}} and Fo.A. 1 as far as dates in the Red Book are concerned.

In [[Gondor]] and the rest of the [[Reunited Kingdom]] outside the Shire, the [[New Reckoning]] calendar entered use starting in {{TA|3019}}. Under this calendar, the year that began on [[25 March]] as T.A. 3021 is also Fo.A. 1.<ref name=Calendars/> As such, T.A. 3022 corresponds to {{FoA|2}} in the New Reckoning, so oftentimes a given date in the Shire will be accounted part of the following year elsewhere in the Reunited Kingdom.

This partial overlap is due to the fact that the [[Shire Calendar]] and the [[New Reckoning]] begin their years on different days: 2 Yule for the Shire and 25 March for the rest of the Reunited Kingdom (as these days are named in the Shire Calendar; their New Reckoning equivalents are 7 [[Narvinyë]] and [[Yestarë]] respectively). Dates on or after 2 Yule and before 25 March count as taking place in the same year of the Fourth Age according to either calendar, but dates on and after 25 March belong to the next year outside the Shire. As such, the death of King [[Elessar]] recorded in the Red Book on [[1 March]] {{SR|1541}} is accounted as having taken place in {{FoA|120}} in both calendars (the New Reckoning names that day 8 [[Súlimë]]).

There are few dates given in the [[Legendarium]] that require the reader to account for this difference, because most dates of the Fourth Age are already explicitly expressed in terms of the Shire Reckoning. For example, [[Legolas]] and [[Gimli]]'s departure from Middle-earth is given as S.R. 1541,<ref name="Later"/> so it can be stated with confidence that their departure took place in Fo.A. 120. (There is ambiguity when determining the year of their departure under the New Reckoning because the day is unknown, but we have no need to make that determination.) The exceptions are both from the [[Note on the Shire Records]] and are as follows:
* Tolkien explains that the text of ''The Lord of the Rings'' descends from a copy of the Red Book made in Gondor that bore the note "Findegil, King’s Writer, finished this work in IV 172."<ref name=Records>{{FR|Records}}</ref> This is presented as a verbatim quote from a Gondorian scribe and the year is not converted to the Shire Reckoning elsewhere in the text. It is therefore assumed that this note was written in regards to the New Reckoning calendar before 7 Narvinyë and accordingly the year is converted to {{FoA|171}}.
* In the same paragraph, Tolkien refers to [[Peregrin Took]]'s retirement to Gondor in "IV 64."<ref name=Records>{{FR|Records}}</ref> We are told elsewhere that Peregrin and his companion [[Meriadoc Brandybuck]] arrived in Gondor sometime between the autumn and the ending of {{SR|1484}}, which is {{FoA|63}} in the Shire Reckoning.<ref name="Later">{{App|Later}}</ref> As such, "IV 64" must refer to a year in the New Reckoning and is accordingly converted to Fo.A. 63.

==History==
There is no information on more than the first few centuries of this age, so it is not known when it ended, if it ever did, although it was probably shorter than 3 millennia.<ref name="Letter211"/>

This age was (presumably) marked by the recovery of the [[Númenor]]ean kingdoms of [[Arnor]] and [[Gondor]], and a flourishing of their subjects, including [[the Shire]] and the [[Hobbits]], while the [[House of Durin]] retook [[Moria]] until the race of [[Dwarves]] failed.<ref>{{PM|Dwarves}}</ref> Eventually that would lead to the final [[Dominion of Men]] over [[Arda]], coming together with the total waning of the [[Elves]] and other dwindling races, such as the [[Ents]] and probably the Dwarves.

The [[Last Ship]] of the [[Elves]], carrying [[Cirdan]] and [[Celeborn]],<ref>{{FR|Prologue}}</ref> apparently sailed before {{FoA|120|n}}<ref name=AppTale>{{App|Tale}}</ref>

In a 1972 letter concerning ''[[The New Shadow]]'', Tolkien mentioned that Eldarion's reign would have lasted for about 100 years after the death of Aragorn.<ref name="L338">{{L|338}}</ref>

==Further future?==
Tolkien said that he thought the distance between the end of the Third Age and the 20th century A.D. was about 6000 years, and that in [[1958]] it should have been around the end of the Fifth Age if the Fourth and Fifth Ages were about the same length as the Second and Third Ages. He said, however, in a letter written in 1958 that he believed the Ages had quickened and that it was about the end of the Sixth Age/beginning of the Seventh.<ref name="Letter211">{{L|211}}.</ref>

==See also==
* [[Timeline/Fourth Age|Timeline of the Fourth Age]]
* ''[[The New Shadow]]''

{{references}}
[[Category:Ages]]
[[de:Das Vierte Zeitalter]]
[[fr:encyclo/chronologie/quatrieme_age]]
[[fi:Neljäs Aika]]

User talk:Sage

2020-11-25T09:49:31Z

75.118.149.152: /* F.O. 171 or F.O. 172? */

{{w|Hyarion|[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]]}}
==Tale of Years==
It's a known fact that the Tale of Years is full of mistakes, however, most of these were corrected in the [[The Lord of the Rings (50th Anniversary Edition)|50th anniversary edition]]. That should be included as well. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 04:54, 30 July 2008 (EDT)

==Standards==
We should really include this in the welcome message, but just FYI: [[Tolkien Gateway:Manual of Style]]. This is in reference to your use of "LotR" in [[Gildor|Gildor Inglorion]]. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 05:39, 30 July 2008 (EDT)

== Elves ==

What published works say that elves are taller?

[[User:Ælfwine|Ælfwine228]] 20:58, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

:from the Appendices:
*the People of the Great Journey, the People of the Stars. They were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed

:Since the writer of the Appendices is a Man, and his readers are also Men, why would he describe the Eldar as tall and not as short?

:Some characters, both Elves and Men are mentioned to be tall, and I understand these can be understood as 'relativistic'; for example you can say that the Eldar were tall relative to the other Elves, but still shorter than Men (although this explanation is quite tentative, and plausible only if you ''want'' to prove that Elves were shorter). I skimmed through the Silmarillion and saw that while the people of Marach are said to be tall, and while other men described as tall such as Galdor the Tall, most references were about Elves.
:*Ingwë the High King, golden-haired and tall
:*The seven sons of Fëanáro were Maedhros the tall...
:*their sister was Ar-feiniel the White. She was younger in the years of the Eldar than her brothers; and when she was grown to full stature and beauty she was tall and strong
:*[Thingol] tallest of all the Children of Ilúvatar
:*But Eöl, though stooped by his smithwork, was no Dwarf, but a tall Elf of a high kin of the Teleri
:*[Maeglin] was tall and black-haired; his eyes were dark

:I don't argue that the assumption that more Elves than Men tended to be tall, can be proben by a statistical analysis. However if Elves are shorter, why Thingol was to be the tallest of all Elves and Men, and not some Man? [[User:Sage|Sage]] 05:56, 3 August 2008 (EDT)

Well, Tolkien stated that elves and men were at first "of a like size" (that is probably the best description in the whole legendarium for their size difference) in the BOLT2. If this is true, whether they became smaller in later ages or not, Thingol could easily be the tallest of all the Children of Iluvatar, but that doesn't mean that most elves were taller than men. Also, more elves are described as tall in the Silmarillion than men because the Silmarillion was almost all about elves, and the very few central character men that were in it were often described as tall, such as Tuor and Turin, as were many men of later ages, especially of Numenorian decent.

While the elves may not be shorter than men in general, I do not think it can be said with certainty that they are taller. By the way, can we make a real talk page/forum for this?
[[User:Ælfwine|Ælfwine228]] 17:48, 3 August 2008 (EDT)
:I am new here, I don't know the process so be my guest. But as a last note, I also remember in BOLT 1 that Elves are shorter, and I was shocked. Furthermore, I think I also read a comment that this idea was later dropped. Anyway I hope you are aware that the BOLT books take place in a different 'continuity' and shouldn't be considered as guides for the general canon. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 17:51, 3 August 2008 (EDT)

Perhaps they shouldn't be considered canon, but from '''''Tolkien's Legendarium; Essays on The History of Middle-earth'''''; "...there are Tolkien's latest thoughts, his best thoughts, and his published thoughts and these are not necessarily the same."
That is probably the wisest analysis that I have ever read about the world of Middle earth.
[[User:Ælfwine|Ælfwine228]] 18:31, 3 August 2008 (EDT)

==Amras==

Hi and welcome to TG (I never "officially" got to greet you). [[Amras]] now. I know it is not much what you wrote, but please don't do it again in the future when you see that "claimed" tag. I am asking this of you as nice as I can and I can only hope that you'll understand it. I know you saw a mistake and wanted to correct it, but keep in mind that all the Sons will get rewritten by me to the last word in those articles, so all the errors will be fixed. It is just a matter of time. There are over 7000 articles here. I'm sure there's plenty of work for all of us. All the best! :) ~~ [[User:Þelma|Þelma]] 05:24, 4 August 2008 (EDT)
:Yes I know you are asking it nicely (I am not of those hot-tempered people who frown at each scolding :P) and I understand. But last time I asked I was told its usage was mainly to avoid edit conflicts and loss of data, therefore it's not always that ''bad'' to edit minimally those articles in the meantime (of course there is a problem with larger edits). So my edit was to make sure that you wouldn't miss that mistake and leave it there intact. Anyway I won't do this again (at least with your claimed articles :)). I trust you will do a good work. Namarie :) [[User:Sage|Sage]] 06:41, 4 August 2008 (EDT)

::My bad for that. I voiced my personal opinion. Like I said, guidelines are too grey. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 06:58, 4 August 2008 (EDT)

::: Sage - It's a good thing at least one of us isn't from that kind of hot-tempered people :)) If you won't agree with something I'll write in future articles (for various reasons, like better knowledge of the text), feel free to drop me a message and corrections will be made, promise. Ederchil - There's no such thing as "my bad" here. :) Thank you both for understanding. ~~ [[User:Þelma|Þelma]] 13:52, 4 August 2008 (EDT)

==Dwarf names==
A couple of things... there are several etymological theories about the Dwarf-names in the ''Dvergatal''. Therefore, I think it's important to state the source of the translation, and add others as well. Also, place Etymolgies above Genealogies, and use double ", not '. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 03:49, 5 August 2008 (EDT)
:Right away [[User:Sage|Sage]] 04:50, 5 August 2008 (EDT)

::And maybe it's handy to mention the language as well, re: [[Arkenstone]]. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 10:20, 5 August 2008 (EDT)

== Meetings ==

Hi Sage! I just wanted to draw your attention to [[Forum:Meetings|here]]. We are currently discussing the idea of a weekly site meeting. Thanks!--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 18:11, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

==Individual Tengwar==
Since you're listing the Westron names, you should really mention ''Report from Marquette'' by Jim Allan among the references. Even if you haven't read it. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 05:07, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

==References==
Hiya. Just a note: <nowiki><ref> tags don't work unless you include a <references/> section at the end (or rather, a <references> section). </nowiki>-- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 08:02, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

==[[:Template:HM]]==
Any thoughts? Other than "Expand to include LotR, S, H and UT" and "Add chapters"? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 12:45, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

== Next Meeting ==

It is planned that we hold our next meeting on the [[Tolkien Gateway:Meetings/5 April 2009|5th of April 2009]], please inform us if you can attend [[Tolkien Gateway talk:Meetings/5 April 2009|here]].--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 18:40, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

== Re: Geia!==
Geia sou kai esena! dystyxws den to exw to allo vivlio tou Tsouli alla to xw diavasei... o typos einai kamenos.

Xairomai pou kai alloi ellhnares diavazoun Tolkien kai grafoun so Tolkien Gateway. Kai se eixa dei polles fores sto Recent changes kai den hxera oti eisai ellhnas... nomizw pws sou eixa grapsei ena talk page se kapoio athro sta agglika... [[User:Mthomas|mthomas]] 15:30, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

==Next Meeting==

Sorry to clutter up your talk page, but just informing you about the next meeting. It is planned that we hold our next meeting on '''Monday''' the [[Tolkien Gateway:Meetings/13 April 2009|13th of April 2009]], please inform us if you can attend [[Tolkien Gateway talk:Meetings/13 April 2009|here]]. Remember that it's on Easter Monday, not Easter Sunday. Thanks!--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 13:21, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
==Xristos Anesth==
Xristos Anesth re patriwth! xronia polla![[User:Mthomas|mthomas]] 08:14, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

==Multiple language words==
Just a question how to deal with words that exist in multiple languages - [[Tur]], [[Tûr]], [[Aran]] for example. What layout do we use? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 11:35, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
==Orcs==
Exw dei edw kai kairo oti psaxnete gia contributors stin selida twn Orcs. Loipon, ama psaxnete akomh endiaferomai egw na voithisw giati ta goustarw poly ta Orcs. Oti idees exeis pes mou. [[User:Mthomas|mthomas]] 14:48, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

==Tengwar==
A lot of the tengwar pages require specific fonts, and people that don't have those fonts installed get gibberish. How about a template at the top, saying "for optimal reading, this page requires any of the following fonts"? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 18:47, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

==[[Common Eldarin|CE]] "3"==
I see you use the 3 to represent the [[wikipedia:Yogh|yogh]]/ʒ. If you look at the edittools bar ("Insert:") at the bottom, you can see the actual symbol next to the dagger symbol. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 11:28, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

== [[Amrod]] (and [[Amras]]) ==

You’re not wrong in what you added to the etymology of that name (although ''Ambaráto'' is the Telerin form, appropriate for Aegnor, whereas Amrod would of course have the Quenya form ''Ambarto''), but unfortunately it makes the messed up alignment of names that was already there even worse. Have a look at what I wrote on the Talk pages of both twins, and see if you can follow what I argue. Feel free to get back to me (or add to the Talk pages) when you got problems. But I think probably the time has come to untangle the mess and reorganise both articles (on the twins). I would be glad of your opinion on that. — [[User:Mithrennaith|Mithrennaith]] 04:40, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

== Upcoming Meeting ==

Hi Sage, I was wondering if you wanted to attend an upcoming meeting this Sunday. If you can make, please [[Tolkien Gateway talk:Meetings/27 June 2010|sign up]]. Thanks! --{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 16:21, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

== Cirth/Angerthas ==

Hi Sage, I was wondering why you moved Angerthas Daeron, Angerthas Erebor and Angerthas Moria to [[Cirth/Angerthas Daeron]], [[Cirth/Angerthas Erebor]] and [[Cirth/Angerthas Moria]] respectively? It seems somewhat counter-intuitive to me (especially as no article links directly to these three), and I'm not sure what they mean as subtitles: are they meant to be subpages of [[Cirth]] or are you just indicating in the titles that "''cirth''" can be used as another name for "''angerthas''"? Would you object if I were to move them back to their original articles? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 15:22, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

==New words==
Hi Sage! Sorry to trespass your linguistic ground by creating an article for ''[[Mae]]''. Since you have more experience on this field, do you have any thoughts on what I did on the page? --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 16:31, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

== Meeting - Sunday 5th September ==

Hi, Sage! Just a quick message to inform you that we are holding our next [[Tolkien Gateway:Meetings|Meeting]] on [[Tolkien Gateway:Meetings/5 September 2010|Sunday, 5th September 2010]] at 7pm [[wikipedia:UTC|UTC]]. Whether you are or aren't able to attend, please sign your name on the [[Tolkien Gateway talk:Meetings/5 September 2010|here]]. Hope to see you on Sunday! --{{User:Mith/sig}} 18:16, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

== Meeting - Sunday 3rd October ==

Hi Sage - do you reckon you'll be available for [[Tolkien Gateway talk:Meetings/3 October 2010|tomorrow's meeting]]? It would be good to see you there! --{{User:Mith/sig}} 20:18, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

== A Few Issues ==

Just a few things I think you should know about:
* This may seem trivial, but could you make sure that you end your sentences in a full-stop?
* When quoting, you should indicate such with quotation marks, otherwise it is technically plagiarism.
* With regards to references, [[Template:References]] has to be at the bottom of the article, or else they won't work (see [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Amon_Amarth&curid=1115&oldid=128927 this], for example).
* Also re: referencing, could you make sure you include page numbers for all publications save for ''The Hobbit'', ''The Lord of the Rings'', ''The Silmarillion'' and ''The Unfinished Tales''; in particular, '' A Readers' Companion'' has only one pagination so there is no need to omit page numbers.
**I am using a copy of ''Nomenclature'' that was handed to me before the Companion was published, so I can't know the pages. In any case I think it is not necessary, since the Nomenclature is arranged like a dictionary. If that's a problem, then I should reference simply "Nomenclature" instead. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 00:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
* There's no need to remove interwiki links (unless they are incorrect).
**You mean the links to other languages? That must be by accident, I didn't meddle with those. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 00:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
* Also, I really must ask that you don't move articles unless there is clear reason, and when you do, use the Move button at the top of the page, and don't copy and paste. The problem with copying and pasting is that it separates an article from its history and therefore obscures its development. Obviously, if the article is spelt incorrectly, is clearly under an under-used name, or uses our old verbose disambiguation system, you can move it without debate, but otherwise it's best to just do a quick message on the talk page (and if no one replies assume it's safe to proceed).
**I try to separate English-named articles from Elvish-named articles. My personal rule of thumb is that the main article is under the English name; the Elvish articles have a link to the main article, and linguistic/etymological notes. When I see e.g. both Silvertine and Zirakzigil redirect to Celebdil, the best thing I can do is replace the redirects with actual content, and copy the bulk of the text to the one that fits most; I can't put an explanation of "tine" in the article for Celebdil, and I can't create an article for Silvertine only to put this explanation. The 'Move' action was unavailable because the target was occupied by the redirects. I understand that copying instead of moving must cause such issues, but while in the fever of adding etymologies and encountering these obstacles, I confess that the issues you mentioned seemed trivial at that moment *blush* [[User:Sage|Sage]] 00:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
* Disambiguation pages should only include the actual articles which require disambiguating - etymological information (other than a brief description in the opening line) should be seeded into the individual articles.
**I fail to understand the reason. Why should the etymology of the name "Hurin" be copied to the five articles of the five individuals called Hurin and not in the single disambiguation page? In similar cases I'd write the full etymology in the disambig page and in the individual articles put a "See Hurin (disambiguation)" link under "Etymology". It seems cleaner and tidier that way. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 00:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
* Re: categorisation. There is no point categorising articles in categories which don't exist; it does nothing and just puts a redlink at the bottom of the page. Creation categories (and categorising them), is exactly the same as creation (and categorising) articles. (See [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Oathbreakers&oldid=128044 this] for the redlink.)
None of the above is meant in vitriol, rudeness, admonition or patronisation: it's just a few pointers to make sure that TG conforms to the very highest standards to be something we can all be proud of. Do keep up the work, here - you are a ''very'' valued contributor. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 17:08, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

:Also, be sure to follow the advice given {{Redlink|[[Portal:Locations/Category tree|here]]}} on the Locations category structure. It seems a lot of editors don't understand the structure I put in place, that page should go some way in explaining what to do (if unsure, just ask me :) ). --{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 17:56, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

== File:Beleriand-eriador-fonstad.png ==
[[File:Steven White Jr. - ME FA 02.gif|thumb|right|150px]]
Hi there. Can you please tell me whose maps you used to create the compound map? The basic Beleriand map is obviously the one derived by me (with the cut-outs where the forst labels are in CT's original map) when I first attempted to join CT's maps at Mount Himring. See an earlier sketch of said map on the right. I wonder how that ended up on the web at all...
[[User:Smeagol|Smeagol]] 23:28, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

:Hi there. I made this composition some years ago, using elements from various maps I had found online. My purpose was to portray a "sunken" Beleriand with the 3rd Age outline of Lindon, and Fonstad's North. It seems that I used your composite map as a base (yes, the one where you have Himring marked in red). When I edited the map recently in order to upload it, I had a [[Wikipedia:false memory|false memory]] that my base had been Fonstad's Arda map, including the shores and outlines; but now that you made me check again, I saw that the southern shoreline as she envisioned it, differs greatly from this one. It turns out that the greater part of this map is your work. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 01:29, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

::You mean the one on the right? Where did you find that? The file is almost 10 years old and I had forgotten about it. I later adjusted the southern coastline, as can be seen on the map in my user page. Those were the days before Photoshop :-) Maybe I should get into the mapmaking business again. My clash with the Tolkien Estate is 6 years back, after all. [[User:Smeagol|Smeagol]] 07:05, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
:::I had a newer version of that map of yours, part of a big collection of fan-made maps I had downloaded from fansites. I think this one was on Tolkienion.com? [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:20, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

::::Ah, that may be. I had to remove the maps section of the Tolkienion when I got in trouble over the maps. However, the maps still exist [http://7a6972656f5f74637568.killerhor.net/index2.php?framesource=indexframe.php here]. But the map you used is not there. I have lost a couple of maps when I had a hard drive failure a few years back. [[User:Smeagol|Smeagol]] 13:45, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

==Elvish roots/stems==

Hello Sage. I have a question about how to interpret a specific form often occurring in the ''Etymologies''. For example, for the base AK-, the form *''akrā'' appears, after which follows the Quenya and Noldorin forms. Now, my question is: what is the form *''akrā'' supposed to signify? Primitive Quendian? --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 13:28, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

:Thanks for the quick answer (for other editors, see [[User talk:Morgan#Roots]])! I hope you don't mind that I have some related questions (I suggest that you answer here, since that makes it easier to follow the conversation):
#Which form should we use as title for these articles? ÁLAT- or just ÁLAT? I've noticed that earlier root articles omit the hyphen. Is this intentional? I started to include the hyphens in the articles I just created, since this is how they appear in the ''Etymologies''.
**I guess the hyphens indicate that the roots are not complete words. Since this is one of the definitions of a root, and '''all''' roots have one, I consider trivial such an indication. If you look at Ardalambion or linguistic discussions in the mailing lists, there is no hyphen. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 08:03, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
#How should we think about the e/ë question in Quenya words? Should the name of the article be, for example, aiwe or aiwë?
**I am against using the diaereses for several reasons, but I think the TG prefers to include them. A couple of Quenya articles I wrote were renamed by some other editor. In any case, I never use them :D [[User:Sage|Sage]] 08:03, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
***According to Fauskanger, "''Tolkien often uses the diaeresis (two dots as in Manwë) to clarify the pronunciation of Elvish names for readers of English, but it is hardly ever used in the Etymologies, a work that was never intended for wider circulation.''" ([http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/index/indexs.htm]). Perhaps this is a good reason to actually use the diaereses? Or is it possible for you to explain the reasons against using them? I just noticed the issue in the article on ''[[yáve]]''. I found out that the spelling ''yávë'' is used in ''The Silmarillion'' (appendix) - isn't then this the more "proper" (canonical?) spelling? --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 20:13, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
#A general linguistic remark: right now, the standard on TG is to use the past tense in article text which is "inside" the legendarium. However, in linguistic texts (such as etymology sections and "dictionary" articles on specific words) we always use the present tense. Is there a reason behind these different uses? --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 14:51, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
**I see that languages, as abstract entities, are outside of time. Once a language exists, its vocabulary and rules will always "exist", even if the language itself is dead or ancient. For example everyone says "Amor in Latin means love" rather than "meant". [[User:Sage|Sage]] 08:03, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
***Good point. --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 20:13, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
===Dots===
The dots signify nothing to Quenya itself. Tolkien in his personal writings (and the Elves) did not use dots. Its quite different from the accents which '''are''' significant to the language and denote a long vowel; yave and yáve would be two different words, with different pronunciation, and different Tengwar spelling. 
On the contrary, the dots don't exist in the language and are of course not represented in tengwar. Tolkien invented them for the published books only to visually assist the occasional English readers to remember that ''e'' is pronounced. In fact, all ''e''s in Quenya are pronounced but the English (or French, who also has silent ''e''s) reader perhaps needs such a reminder. yáve and yávë are not different spellings, they are exactly the same thing, only that yávë is perhaps more visually helpful for the English (or the French). 
The reason '''not''' to use the dots, besides being not a part of the language, is that it's quite more complicated to write and search in the wiki for ''yávë'' than ''yáve''. 
And if I may mention, in Albanian ''ë'' signifies a silent ''e'', so it would have the contrary effect to an Albanian reader :) [[User:Sage|Sage]] 12:08, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

:I am personally in favour of the diaereses: this is an English-language website aimed at those who know English - diaereses have a clear meaning in English which I think it is important to maintain. Furthermore, should we be over-ruling the Professor's use of diaereses?

:The problem of typing/searching can be solved by redirects. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 01:31, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

::I agree with Mith, I think we should use Yávë, with Yáve as redirects. --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]]
::I'd argue that the Professor used the diaereses with publication in mind, not as a rule-not-to-be-over-ruled; or else such forms would be seen in HoMe. It would be interested to bring the matter up in the forum, what do you say? [[User:Sage|Sage]] 20:03, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

:::I don't know if a publication post-mortem can really be conclusive evidence either way of the professor's intentions. However, as you point out, the Professor included diaereses with publication in mind and he never had HOME in mind for publication (and if he did we can't know that he wouldn't have gone through adding diaereses). I think it's a moot point, really.
:::Furthermore, is it not confusing to readers not so well-versed in Tolkienian linguistics to encounter words lacking diaereses where they think they should see them? (I notice, for instance, that many scholars retain diaereses where Tolkien uses them.)
:::I know it can be hard for non-native speakers of English to understand, but the diaereses really is a valuable tool in aiding pronunciation amongst native speakers (remember Cate Blanchett's "''The light of Erendil''"!), and, contrary to popular belief amongst some (non-native speakers) scholars, it is understand by many: words such as coöperate, continuüm, reëlect, zoölogy and naïve as well as names like Chloë, Zaïre, Boötes, and the Brontë Sisters. Notwithstanding the above, I would still support the use of diaereses as a distinguishing feature of unusualness: in English, any form of diacritic signifies "''I am a foreign word.''" - it creates an aura of intrigue and mystery which I wouldn't wish to lose.
:::It would be good if you could attend [[Tolkien Gateway talk:Meetings/5 December 2010|the meeting today]], I've added this issue on the list of things to discuss. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 01:44, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

==Elvish/PQ==
Hi Sage! I just wanted to draw your attention to this question of mine: [[Talk:ÁS-AT]] --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 19:36, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

== Second Age Globe ==

As you pointed out, I completely forgot that Arda wasn't made round until the end of the Second Age. I really like the images you put together for the First Age and Third Age globes as I used in my [[User:KingAragorn/Sandbox|sandbox]] for the location portal. Would it be possible for you to create a Second Age globe in the same style? --{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 23:00, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

==Boromir and Beornings==
Hello Sage! Just drawing you attention to [[Talk:Boromir#Etymology]] and [[Talk:Beornings]], where I discuss your edits.--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 01:54, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

==Use of asterisk==
I noted that you use both single and double asterisks in the article on [[Valaraukar]]. I think the use needs to be explained, either by making the asterisks into links (as was my initial idea), or, as can be seen here [[Talk:*]], where [[User:Mith]] is of the opinion that we should avoid the use of asterisk altogether. --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 15:04, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

:I am not sure on what you want me to comment [[User:Sage|Sage]] 09:36, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

::What does the double asterisk (**) signify? --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 20:16, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

:::The double asterisk is explained in [[asterisk]] :) [[User:Sage|Sage]] 21:00, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

::::Oh, thank you! :) Then I'll go ahead and make internal links for the asterisks (at least for the time being - since there is a debate on wether we should use asterisks or not). (BTW, don't you find it more convenient to keep a conversation to one talk page? It tends to get confusing having to switch between talk pages when following a conversation.) /Cheers --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 21:04, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

== Taniquetil ==

Hi Sage! On this article I removed the redlinks as I find redlinks ugly whilst showing to the reader where our holes are (and giving false hope that those articles may exist); I personally think redlinks shouldn't be created unless you expect to create the article ''yourself'' or have a realistic expectation that someone else will do so soon. Are you intending on creating articles for ''TĀ'', ''nique'' and ''til''? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 11:13, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
:Hi, personally I don't think redlinks ugly and I consider them only 'work to be done in the future'. For example, if someone ever will create an article for "nique", he will have to manually trace every page containing the word and wikify it. I believe redlinks can be useful by the "Wanted Pages" of the "What links here" features. But I respect the different aesthetics about the wiki. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 12:02, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

::I accept that - and indeed agree - so long as it ''is'' "work to be done in the future" and not just "work someone else ''might'' do at some point"; if an article never gets created the redlink serves no useful function. We have 6690 wanted pages (of which a good chunk are linguistic ones) - a figure which is increasing and not decreasing - so the work isn't really getting done; in the meeting last September I argued, "''let's be honest, they probably aren't all articles waiting to happen''".
::The problem is especially true for linguistic articles because it's such a specialised area there are very few people who know enough to edit those articles and even fewer who are happy to do so, therefore you can't ever realistically expect anyone to ever create those articles. Are you planning on creating links to ''TĀ'', ''nique'' and ''til''? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 12:23, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
:::Well I will have in mind to complete immediately the articles I wikify from now on. I will try to work on complete trees and their related pages when possible. Don't worry about that. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 12:46, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

==PQ/PE==

Hello Sage! I need help on the following: should "Proto-Eldarin" be redirected to Primitive Quendian or Common Eldarin? Or do you think Proto-Eldarin have its own article ([http://reocities.com/athens/parthenon/9902/langlst.html Lisa Star] says that it sometimes seem to refer to PQ and sometimes to CE)? I've tried (without success) to find this term in Tolkien's writings.--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 21:24, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
:Obviously Proto-Eldarin is not an attested form, but a term originating before Tolkien's writings about Primitive Quendian were published, and before any details about the Eldar vs Avari were known. I think it is safe to redirect it to Common Eldarin. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 12:37, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

==Etymology of ''Sauron''==
Sage, do you have ideas/comments on how we should present the etymology of the name ''Sauron'' on Tolkien Gateway? Having investigated it a bit, a complete version is [[User:Morgan/Sandbox6|more complicated]] than what I think could be presented on a general wiki article. As I understand it, Tolkien struggled with deriving ''Sauron'' either from Sindarin ''thaur'' (PE:17, p. 183; EQS), or giving the name a Quenya derivation (''saura'' "cruel") ultimately deriving from a base THAW (PE:17, p. 184; Letter 297). --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 02:11, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
:We can mention both derivations from ''saura'' and ''thaur''. It seems like it is needed an entry on the word ''[[saura]]'' which seems to have suffered most under Tolkien's revisions, and provide them in its article. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 14:17, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
::Thanks - I've added the info to our Sauron etymology section.--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 02:44, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

==Letter 427==
Hi Sage, I just saw you added {{redlink|[[Letter 427]]}} as a reference to [[-nguo]]. This letter does however not exist, could you look into this and add the correct letter? --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 14:53, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

==Legendary locations==
Ah! I had forgotten about the Last Desert - it's a good addition to the template. I'm sure there are some others I haven't thought about.--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 17:14, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

== Images ==

Hello Sage. As you probably know, I've been sorting out images on TG and making sure that they all have the proper file licensing templates. I'm sure that you will agree that this is a mammoth task; therefore I would like to ask for your help sorting out the images that you've uploaded. Please see below for a list of files that need sorting and/or checking.

You noted on these images that they were public domain, so I've put a PD template on them. However, we need to know the author's name so that they can be categorised and named properly.
*{{Redlink|[[File:Rumil2.gif.jpg]]}}
*{{Redlink|[[File:Elemm.gif]]}}
:The author made those as spontaneous doodles. He is not a professional and doesn't pursue any credit, and as far as I know he wouldn't like to have his name published online either. I wonder if we can support the option to name some files as "Anonymous" [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Please check these maps and decide whether you, [[Karen Wynn Fonstad]] (her estate or publisher, I don't know), or someone else owns the copyright. You'll notice that on some I've guessed and put on a file licensing template, but please check them.
:The maps I have marked with an asterisk are derivatives of (usually) Fonstad's works, therefore I don't have the authority to grant any permission to publish them under any term. I think that we should track Fonstad's copyright holders. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
*[[:File:Sage - Almaren.png]]
*[[:File:Sage - Evolution of Arda.jpg]]*
*[[:File:Sage - Reunited Kingdom.png]]
*[[:File:Sage - Middle-earth.jpg]]*
*[[:File:1050.png]]*
*[[:File:1105.png]]*
*[[:File:1115.png]]*
*[[:File:1125.png]]*
*[[:File:1132.png]]*
*[[:File:1149.png]]*
*[[:File:1150.png]]*
*[[:File:1200.png]]*
*[[:File:1300.png]]*
*[[:File:1350.png]]*
*[[:File:1498.png]]*
*[[:File:1129.png]]*
*{{redlink|File:Belfalas 2nd Age.jpg}} (NB: I tried to contact [[Andreas Möhn]] but his e-mail bounced)
*[[:File:Sage - Beleriand and Eriador collage.png]]
:this is a collage of maps by Fonstad, Raw and User:Smeagol [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
*[[:File:Sage - Location of Numenor.png]]*
*[[:File:Sage - Great Plague.png]]
*{{Redlink|[[File:Pan-route.png]]}}*
*{{Redlink|[[File:Overhill-route.png]]}}*
*[[:File:Pauline Baynes - The Little Kingdom.jpg]]
:this is a map by Pauline Baynes, therefore it should take the template that other Baynes' images do. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

I've put an unknown copyright status on these miscellaneous images. Please identify the copyright holder and conact them for permission. If you want me to contact them, just ask.
:I do believe that it would be better if you include these in your existing work. You have better experience in this and you will do quicker and better than if we shared the work. However I will put notes to help you [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
*[[:File:PP banner.jpg]]
:this is a derivative of collective work by members of the GTS. You can contact them from their Facebook page. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
*{{redlink|[[File:Michael Gaydos - TolkienWilliamsLewis.jpg]]}}
*{{redlink|[[File:Daniel reeve.jpg]]}}
:the picture was taken from a package of maps by Decipher. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
*{{redlink|File:Dwafrune.gif}}
*{{redlink|File:Dwarfrunes.JPEG}}
*{{redlink|File:Dansmith.png}}
:these pictures were taken by Dan Smith's font site. FYI I contacted him once but he didn't reply [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
*[[:File:Mani and Sol.jpg]]
:I took the image from [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:M%C3%A1ni_and_S%C3%B3l_by_Lorenz_Fr%C3%B8lich.jpg here]. It belongs in the PD. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
*{{redlink|[[File:Alex lewis.jpg]]}}
:this picture was taken by members of the GTS at Oxonmoot (I think 2002). [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
*{{redlink|[[File:Idril.gif]]}}
:I will try to contact MB and ask him if we can use his heraldry here. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
*{{redlink|[[File:Steve Notley - Bob the Angry Flower's Lord of the Ringz.gif]]}}
*{{redlink|[[File:Gift.jpg]]}}
:This was made by the Hildebrandts [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
*{{redlink|[[File:Brothers Hildebrandt - Return of the King.jpg]]}} (NB: I will try to contact Greg Hildebrandt)
*{{Redlink|[[File:Cave.jpg]]}}
:Made by Wenzel, however I don't know what's the copyright and if he gave permission for this [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Many thanks for your help!--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 10:50, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

::Thanks for the info. I shall grow through them at some point.--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 18:03, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

==Buckland==
See [[Talk:Buckland]]. In no primary source does it talk about Buckland becoming part of the Shire (it does for the Westmarch, however). Indeed "Eastmarch" is not mentioned, but "East March" is (only once).--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 18:03, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

== Category:Greco-Romance names ==

Hey Sage. [[Tolkien Gateway:Meetings/5 August 2012|At the meeting just gone]] we discussed your [[:Category:Greco-Roman names|Category:Greco-Romance names]]. You may have noticed that I moved it (because I thought that you have made a spelling mistake). You can read the discussion [[Tolkien Gateway:Meetings/5 August 2012/Transcript|here]]. As you can see, we decided that it would be best to diffuse the category into "Romanic names" and "Ancient Greek names". Are you happy with this? If so, could you sort it out?--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 21:23, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
:Please have a look at [[Category talk:Greco-Roman names]] [[User:Sage|Sage]] 23:49, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

==Westlands==
I just noticed that your reference in [[Westlands]] didn't work as the parameter "X1" doesn't exist in [[Template:SD]]. I've changed it to "XI" (Epilogue). Was this correct or did you use another chapter as source? --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 16:39, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
:Oops! yes, that's correct :) [[User:Sage|Sage]] 19:09, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

==Alatar and Pallando==

Sage, do you know of any good linguistic analysis of the names ''Alatar'' and ''Pallando''? I made a quick search, but couldn't find any -- surely it must have been discussed in VT or PE? --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 20:19, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

:No, other than the lotr.wikia.com speculates that Pallando is related to palan/palla [[User:Sage|Sage]] 06:54, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

::{{UT|Istari}}, Note 6 says: "''Pallando'', despite the spelling, perhaps contains ''palan'' 'afar', as in ''palantír'' and in ''Palarran'' 'Far Wanderer', the name of Aldarion's ship." This is C.R.T.'s speculation for Pallando, could we speculate Alatar's etymology? Or should we just say that it's unknown?--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 11:10, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

:::Yes we could. There is ''alata'' "great", ''al(a)-'' "blessed" with ''atar'' "father" or ''tar'' "high one" and so on. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 21:20, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

::::Right. Just to make a note of it, Encylopedia of Arda also suggests that ''Alatar'' can be interpreted as "after-comer" [http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/a/alatar.html].--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 21:43, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

== Category:Angicised Westron words ==

Are you going to make ''[[Special:WantedCategories|Category:Angicised Westron words]]''?--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 19:37, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

==Maps==
Who made these maps?
*{{redlink|[[Media:At the crossroads map.png]]}}
*{{redlink|[[Media:Over hill.png]]}}
*{{redlink|[[Media:Short Rest.png]]}}
*{{redlink|[[Media:Roast Mutton.png]]}}--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 23:32, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
:They are croppings from [[:File:Mith01.jpg|this map]] but since they would take the unknown-copyright tag anyway, I didn't bother to add more information for that moment. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 08:35, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

==Lenition/Mutation==
Hello Sage! I noticed that we have no separate page for mutation in Sindarin (like we have for [[lenition]]). Do you reckon such a page could be useful, or do you know if we have any other article to which mutation can be redirected? Thanks --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 18:23, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

==The "Hobbit" week==
Sage, do you have any thoughts about this: can the "archaic" names of the days of the week be said to be Westron, and the later names to be Hobbitish (Kuduk)? I'm just thinking of how to categorize the names according to language.--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 23:53, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
:The names ''Monendei'' and so are Middle English and can be considered "Middle Westron" according to [https://sites.google.com/site/endorenya/language-periodizations this project]. The modern day names ''Monday'' etc can be considered regular developments in "modern" Westron, but I don't think we can tell how much they are proper, or Hobbitish Westron. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 14:34, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
:For example, I am not sure if "Trewsday" was the name also used by the Rangers, Gondorians, Gandalf, etc, or whether they would say *"Treesday". [[User:Sage|Sage]] 14:37, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

==Wintring==
Thanks for correcting my silly edit at the Wintring article, Sage! :-) --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 21:41, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

== Bain pic ==

Since there don't seem to be any other images of Bain on the site (yet), is there really any harm in keeping the shot from "The Desolation of Smaug" as his 'profile pic,' so to speak? --[[User:BalrogTrainer|BalrogTrainer]] 03:24, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

:According to my own personal understanding I wouldn't use it as a main picture of a canonical article, but other than that there isn't any harm keeping it as a profile pic :) [[User:Sage|Sage]] 05:57, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

== Articles needed citations ==

I don't know if you've ever looked through [[:Category:Articles needing citation|Articles needing citation]], but it contains 246 articles to which the <nowiki>{{fact}}</nowiki> template has been applied. For the majority of these it appears to be on etymologies; with this is mind, I was wondering whether you (perhaps with [[User:Morgan]]'s help?) might be willing to go through these articles and either add sources or remove/amend the articles as appropriate? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 19:52, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

== Wereworms ==

There is no image with the wereworms as they appeared in [[The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies]] in tolkien gateway at all.Someone should upload at least an image on tolkien gateway with the wereworms as they appeared in the third Hobbit film.What do you think?

:Good idea! Go on, as I don't have any pictures from that film. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 10:00, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

As i have said, there is no image with the were-worms as they appeared in [[The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies]] in Tolkien Gateway.Can you upload at least an image on Tolkien Gateway with the were-worms as they appeared on the third Hobbit film? You can find on Internet.I don't have the ability to upload images on Tolkien Gateway generally, but you do have this ability.

:I haven't even watched the film. Find me an image and I will consider it. Also, consider creating an account here. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 21:13, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Yes.I already found not only one, but two images:[http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/BotFAWereWorms01.jpg this one] and [http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/8/85/BOTFA_Wereworm.PNG/revision/latest?cb=20150306211236 this one].What do you think? Are these images good or not?

== Discussion ==

I would like to be discussed something generally.Read [[User talk:2.86.255.128#Tolkien Gateway and The Hobbit film|here]].
This place, Trollshaws,appears in the First Hobbit film.You can check it by seeing the movie.I am telling that because [[User:Ederchil]] removes my editing about the Trollshaws in which i say that Trollshaws do appear in the First Hobbit film.You can see it [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Trollshaws&action=history here] or [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Trollshaws&oldid=291125 here]. {{unsignedanon| 2.86.255.128}}
:Please check the others's replies to you, their comments and the edits they do to your edits. The administrators's obligations do NOT include discussing and explaining again ana again their points and correcting the grammar and spelling of our edits. Ederchil said he did this for most of your edits but that can't go on for ever; from a point they will start just reverting your edits, and if you insist, they will block you. As for your edit on Trollshaws, you don't add any useful information (just appearing as in the book isn't something worth to be mentioned) and also you have a grammar mistake, as in almost all of your edits (should be "its role" instead of "'''it's''' role"). [[User:Sage|Sage]] 10:21, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

::The IP address of this anon is in Athens. Would you be able to explain in Greek so the user can better understand why their edits are being undone/reverted/amended? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 23:16, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Yes I am Greek.I am from Athens.{{unsignedanon| 2.86.255.128}}

In case you don't know it,I have already found not one, but two images about the wereworms as they were depicted in the Hobbit film Trilogy:[http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/BotFAWereWorms01.jpg this one] and [http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/8/85/BOTFA_Wereworm.PNG/revision/latest?cb=20150306211236 this one].I found these images a week ago.So, what do you think? Are these images good or not? --[[User talk:2.86.255.128|2.86.255.128]] 00:26, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
:Oi sygkekrimenes den einai poly kales. Na ftiaxeis logariasmo melous wste na mporeis na dhmiourgeis arthra kai na anevazeis eikones. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 11:56, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

OK.I have seen that there is no image uploaded on page [[Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor]] about the game with the same name.I have also seen that only a single image about that game is uploaded here on Tolkien Gateway.Can you upoad at least two images (images-posters I suggest) about that game on Tolkien Gateway? I don't have the ability to upload inages in Tolkien Gateway, but you do have this ability. --[[User talk:2.86.255.128|2.86.255.128]] 21:47, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

:Den kanw tipota mexri na dw oti diavazeis ti sou grafw. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 22:04, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

== Proposition ==

I would like to propose something.I would like not to blog me again from Tolkien Gateway if I did something wrong about the image that I just uploaded.What do you say? [[User:Gegou|Gegou]]

== Evil or Servants of Melkor ==

I am not so sure Sauron and Ungoliant should be in the Servants of Melkor category. Why? They both 'betrayed' him in their own ways: Ungoliant turned on him and attempted to devour him, while Sauron forsook his ties to him before Eonwe (sure he was afraid of the wrath of the Valar, but it's still treachery) and rose as the Enemy of Middle-earth, but pursued his own agenda instead of continuing Morgoth's work.
Both Sauron and Ungoliant served Morgoth (the former more so than the latter), but they ultimately had their own purposes in mind. They joined him and carried out his bidding, but at those respective times it suited them as well: Morgoth undermined the influence of the Valar which later proved useful in Sauron's rise; Morgoth destroyed the Two Trees, allowing Ungoliant to feed on their Light and briefly sate her hunger.
What I'm saying is neither is a truly loyal ally/servant. We don't even know if Sauron returned to Morgoth after his defeat by Huan and Luthien. He fled to Taur-nu-Fuin, not Angband. He might not have participated at all in the War of Wrath, explaining why he escaped the triumph of Valinor's host and why Eonwe even bothered to listen to his (un)genuine repetance.
Also, on the Evil Category page it says: "Articles about evil. Evil individuals, evil places, evil objects, etc. For people, this includes the Dark Lords, evil chieftains, or otherwise doers of great evil. Servants." Sauron is a Dark Lord and Ungoliant is a doer of evil. --[[User:LordoftheEarth|LordoftheEarth]] 10:10, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

:I agree with removing the 'Servant of Melkor' category for Ungoliant. It is never mentioned that Ungoliant served Morgoth, they were temporal allies; and what kind of servant tries to eat his master? However, Sauron was faithful to Morgoth and his porpouses even after the First Age (both in promoting the dark cult in Númenor and becoming the new Dark Lord). He deserves to be in the 'Evil' category, though. --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 10:22, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

It was not loyalty that made Sauron promote the worship of Morgoth. Think of his situation. He is a master of Darkness, but he is now something between a prisoner and an adviser. He could hardly propound himself as a God at that time. Morgoth's name, however, and its association with evil could be used on the other hand to great effect. Let's hear J.R.R. himself:

Sauron was not a ‘sincere’ atheist, but he preached atheism, because it weakened resistance to himself (and he had ceased to fear God’s action in Arda) [...] he spoke of Melkor in Melkor’s own terms: as a god, or even as God. This may have been the residue of a state which was in a sense a shadow of good [...] Melkor, and still more Sauron himself afterwards, both profited by this darkened shadow of good and services of ‘worshippers’. '''But it may be doubted whether even such a shadow of good was still sincerely operative in Sauron by that time'''. '''His cunning motive is probably best expressed thus. To wean one of the God-fearing from their allegiance it is best to propound another unseen object of allegiance and another hope of benefits; propound to him a Lord who will sanction what he desires and not forbid it. Sauron, apparently a defeated rival for world-power, now a mere hostage, can hardly propound himself; but as the former servant and disciple of Melkor, the worship of Melkor will raise him from hostage to high priest.''' --[[User:LordoftheEarth|LordoftheEarth]] 10:29, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
::Sauron's categorization as "servant of M" is not because of his situation on Numenor, but being his lieutenant and minion during the First Age, as all the Maiar who followed him. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 18:56, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

==Lost Tales==
Hi Sage! On the matter you told me early this year, about making a subwiki for the "LT-continuity", maybe we could begin creating categories and templates for Gnomes? You said to make "Lost Tales characters" categories, but many of them exist beyond the LT, but categorizing them as "Gnomes" could be a step further and will remove the anachronical "Noldo" categories/templates that many have. What do you think? --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 21:47, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

== [[Melian]] <nowiki><ref name=s4/></nowiki> [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Melian&diff=next&oldid=311926] ==

It seems that you did not add text for this reference in April. Is it {{[[Template:S|S]]|4}}: {{S|4}}? [[User:BartekChom|BartekChom]] 16:45, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
: Excuse me, it seems that you overlooked this question. Is your s4 "Of Thingol and Melian"? [[User:BartekChom|BartekChom]] 18:23, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
: I'm sorry, yes. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 09:30, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
: Thank you. [[User:BartekChom|BartekChom]] 16:36, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

== Battle under the trees ==

Hi Sage. I just wanted to say thank you for reviewing and editing my page: Battle Under Tress. (or 'battle under the trees' as you rightly corrected me) I've been part of Tolkien Gateway for a few months now and only made minimum edits to some fairly obscure pages. You editing my page on the battle under the trees has made me feel like a part of a community for the first time here. so, nothing but, Thank You.

== Category:Races in The Book of Lost Tales ==

What is your plan with [[:Category:Races in The Book of Lost Tales]]? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 19:25, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

P.S. You've got a non-existent template on your user page. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 19:25, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

== First Edition of The Lord of the Rings ==
Did you see my entries in the talk page of your user page for the first edition of The Lord of the Rings? I did a search for the keyword "edition" in all volumes of the History of Middle-earth that deal with the history of The Lord of the Rings and its appendices and also read the 50th anniversary edition. I do not own a copy of the first edition of The Lord of the Rings, so it could be that a manual comparison between the first edition and the second edition will show further differences. I did not check the prologue or any of the other appendices than Appendix A and Appendix B. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhorahil]] 13:44, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
:Thank you very much, all contributions are welcome, I am very happy that you find this "collection" interesting. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 17:04, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

== F.O. 171 or F.O. 172? ==

Hi Sage! I tried asking this same question on Mith's Talk but got no answer. Hoping you might be able to share some insight.

I noticed that references to [[Fourth Age 172|F.O. 172]] across the wiki have been mostly corrected to [[Fourth Age 171|F.O. 171]]. I can't find a reason for this that wouldn't also apply to other Fourth Age years; the note on F.O. 171 states only that the Gondor reckoning of the date of copying of the Red Book of Westmarch from the Thain's Book is F.O. 172 without getting into the ''why'' of the matter. Can you shed some light on this? I'd like to add a more robust explanation on [[Fourth Age 171|F.O. 171]] for the discrepancy if possible. Thanks! --[[Special:Contributions/75.118.149.152|75.118.149.152]] 08:51, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

:Thanks for the reply on my Talk; I'm working on expanding the main [[Fourth Age]] article with an in-depth explanation of the difference. Perhaps pedantic, but if we're going to make year adjustments, we may as well make a good accounting of it. --[[Special:Contributions/75.118.149.152|75.118.149.152]] 09:49, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Talk:Timeline/Fourth Age

2020-11-24T09:18:34Z

75.118.149.152:

The entry for F.A. 220 with The New Shadow should be removed to an Other versions of the legendarium section. I have done so on the Reunited Kingdom and Eldarion pages. From The Peoples of Middle-earth and two Letters from J.R.R. Tolkien about bis writings concerning the Fourth Age, especially the Second letter he abandoned The New Shadow, because he thought that the Story was not worth to be told. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhorahil]] 13:09, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

:I don't think a Timeline article is the right place for discussions of alternate continuities, given its necessarily abbreviated nature. If consensus is that events described in The New Shadow "didn't happen," then I think the reference to it should be removed from the year entry for 220 entirely. In either case, I think we should still retain the 220 date entry for the end of Eldarion's reign and presumable life, since there's no reason to think that Tolkien would have seen fit to change that detail even if he otherwise intended to disavow the events of The New Shadow entirely. Eldarion had to die sometime, after all, and F.O. 220 is the last word Tolkien gave on the subject. --[[Special:Contributions/75.118.149.152|75.118.149.152]] 09:18, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Talk:Reunited Kingdom

2020-11-24T09:00:32Z

75.118.149.152: /* Geography */

==Map in the Infobox==
The map in the infobox is not canoncial. The map incorrectly does not show Anórien to be a part of the Reunited Kingdom of Arnor and Gondor. Anórien was still a part of Gondor during the War of the Ring and was never a part of Rohan. Although The Lord of the Rings does never mention the borders of the reunited kingdom it is unlikely that it did not include Anórien, which was still a part of Gondor during the War of the Ring. The Mering stream is mentioned as the eastern border of Rohan in Unfinished Tales Cirion and Eorl and the Friendship of Gondor and Rohan (iii) Cirion and Eorl in the paragraph with the footnotes 45 and 46 and on the dotted red line with the label "Border of Rohan" on the Map of Rohan, Gondor and Mordor that is included in some editions of The Return of the King. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhorahil]] 16:43, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

:I created that map many years ago, based on one by Fonstad. Note that "many years ago" means that I also had different understanding about canon and accuracy of information and I wasn't much concerned about how accurate to canon was. I am not sure if Fonstad's text accompanying the map give some textual evidence or rationale about her layout. If the map contradicts canonical information, I don't have anything to say in favor of the map. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 08:55, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

::I'm looking at my copy of the ''Atlas'' right now and I suspect that what happened is that at the time you created the page map, you may have confused the placement of the label "Druadan" for the indicated location of the enclave on the map itself, which is very small, partially overlapping the mountains, and quite easy to miss. (I never noticed it before until now, when I was specifically looking for it.) I'll see if I can gin up a new map sometime in the next week or so that conforms more closely to the known facts. --[[Special:Contributions/75.118.149.152|75.118.149.152]] 16:25, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

:::Oh to be exact the base map is a fan-made map I found on Wikipedia. What I did was defining the "Kingdom" according to Fonstad, as I didn't want to use the canonical one for copyright reasons. So the labels and other features of the map aren't mine. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 17:50, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

==Geography==
The information about the borders of the Reunited Kingdom during the reign of Elessar is partly wrong and partly speculative. It is wrong that they correspond to Gondor's borders at its largest extension and it is wrong that the field of Celebrant or the river Limlight is the northern border of the Reunited Kingdom, because that is the northern border of Rohan and Aragorn renewed the grant of Rohan to Éomer. In the Lord of the Rings the borders of the reunited kingdom of Arnor and Gondor during the reign of Elessar are not mentioned (especially not in Appendix A II The Kings of the Mark Third Line). The exact status of the Shire, of the Treegarth of Isengard and of Drúadan Forest are not known from the wording of the grants. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhorahil]] 16:43, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

:I took a stab at remaking the map, but I could use some feedback on the northern border of Arnor and the northeastern border of Gondor. WIP viewable here: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/286081897925312512/779616303756869682/fourth-age.png

:Note: not final quality; I plan to apply an airbrush effect to the border fills to smooth them out a bit and also add the kingdoms in the northeast (East Lórien, Beornings & Woodmen, Woodland Realm, Dale, Erebor & Iron Hills) just for completeness' sake. My current intention is to depict hard borders at rivers and other clear landmarks, while having somewhat airbrushed borders at mountain ranges, and very soft airbrushed borders at stretches of empty land (such as at the aforementioned northern edge of Arnor and the northeastern edge of Gondor).

:I don't feel at all troubled at the idea of simply showing the enclaves of the Shire & Westmarch, Drúadan Forest, and Nan Curunír/Watchwood in different colors and leaving it to the reader to determine exactly to what extent the authority of the King applied in each.

:The difficulty I'm having is that I genuinely don't know how far Aragorn pushed Gondor's claims. Nothing in the references cited in the Atlas of ME suggests to me that the borders shown on the Fonstad map of the Fourth Age that informed the previous version of the map is supported by text. RK/Steward<ref>{{RK|Steward}}</ref> merely states that Aragorn "pardoned" the Easterlings and "made peace" with the Haradrim, and AppA/Gondor<ref>{{App|Gondor}}</Ref> states that Elessar "subdued" Umbar. We know from AppA/Mark<ref name=Mark>{{App|Mark}}</ref> that Aragorn and Éomer rode to war far in the south and east of the Sea of Rhȗn, but we don't know if these wars had anything to do with enforcing border claims. When Tolkien meant "conquered" in other contexts he was usually very clear in his diction, but the wording relating to Gondor's relations with the former allies of Sauron seems to deliberately fall short of that.

:I don't think it likely that Tolkien intended Elessar to claim the absolute maximum extent of the lands ever claimed in the imperial dominion of Gondor. This is both based on his choice of words and on the fact that the lands of the east never appear to have been meaningfully settled or governed by Gondor even in the short time in which they were nominally within the borders of the Kingdom, which was in any case many centuries before the Fourth Age. Moreover, there's already a lot of repopulation to be done in Ithilien, Annúminas, Fornost, and Arnor more generally, so I don't know where Aragorn would find the numbers of people necessary to also settle the East.

:That said, I can't justify with explicit references my choice to assign Harondor or Enedwaith to the Reunited Kingdom either, so this may ultimately be a matter of opinion. Perhaps it would be for the best if I marked debatable or questionable claim areas with a cross-hatch or lighter shade as compared to the core regions of the RK? I would consider the core regions of the RK that we know were reclaimed to consist of Gondor, Ithilien, and the known settlement zone of Arnor centered around the cities of former Arthedain. All other areas - Cardolan, Rhudaur, parts of Arthedain, Enedwaith, Harondor, southern Rhovanion - would be depicted as "questionable claims." --[[Special:Contributions/75.118.149.152|75.118.149.152]] 07:53, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

::I think that Tolkien deliberately left the question of the extent of the borders of the Reunited Kingdom during the reign of Elessar and Eldarion open like he left many things in the appendices vague and open. Personally, since Aragorn based his claim on his descent from Isildur and decided to also have a seat in an area that was depopulated (Annuminas) and referred to the Corsairs of Umbar to Ecthelion as "rebels" that he would at least de iure claim the territory that Gondor held a claim to at its largest extension with the exception of Rohan (independent but allied).

::I would go with Fonstad's map of the Fourth Age as far as it can be backed up by statements about the historic borders of Gondor and Arnor (or Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur) at its largest extent and the ones of Rohan (from Cirion and Eorl). Fangorn Forest should not be part of the Reunited Kingdom and not be part of Rohan. Based on the description of the borders of Rohan in Cirion and Eorl, it seems that Fangorn Forest was not a part of Rohan and it probably was not a part of Gondor before and the former northern border of Gondor only mentioned the river Limlight (as the border of the field of Celebrant) on the west side of the Anduin and did not mention where the western border of Gondor was on the east side of the Misty Mountains. In the case of the Shire, the Treegarth of Orthanc and Drúadan forest, we do not know the exact status. The text says nothing that the dwarves in the glittering caves were not part of Rohan or had self-governance, so I would not give it a different colour than Rohan.

::I think from a strategic and opportunistic point of view claiming the territory at Gondor's largest extent makes sense, because his enemies have suffered a strong defeat and those who have fled or wwere captured and released made terrifying experiences that they probably told their countrymen when they returned home (major earthquakes, probable destruction of Sauron, an attack by an army of the dead). Enemies that were living within or near this territory were probably decimated and demotivated from attacking again (with teffifying stories told and no Sauron to motivate them to attack). It does not hurt to claim a territory even if you know that it will take a long time to atually settle it and to effectively control it with military garrisons. Why give anything away if you are not forced to do so and if you think that you can live in peace with any local population that is left there.

::The territories that he gave self governance or where he re-newed a grant of the land were territories whose inhabitants or parts of its inhabitants had helped the Dúnedain of the North and Gondor to win the war (some Hobbits from the Shire, the Woses of Drúadan forest had helped the army of Rohan to circumvent the enemy, the Ents had helped to destroy the remains of Saruman's troops in Isengard). I would use a colour that is a lighter shade of the colour of the Reunited Kingdom for the Shire (no distinction between the former Shire and the Westmarch), for the Treegarth of Orthanc (with the exception of the tower of Orthanc itself) and for Drúadan Forest.

::In my opinion going with Gondorian troops and troops from Rohan to the south and to the east was to show the remaining local population there how powerful and numerous they were from a military point of view and to declare their claim that this was still the territory of Gondor and to accept oaths of fealty by local leaders and to depose and defeat anybody who did not want to swear an oath of fealty. Umbar was simply to much of a historic risk of being attacked by its fleet if Umbar was not brought under the permanent control of Gondor aagain and it was also a question of Tradition and pride because of the white pillar and the surrender of Sauron to the might of Númenor. It is a pity that Umbar is not on the map. If you want to show the full extent of the Reunited Kingdom which includes Umbar and its surroundings, you will have to use the General Map of Middle-earth as a basis. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhorahil]] 14:37, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

:::Regarding the RK's borders, the crux of the issue is how one chooses to interpret this quote: "In Gondor the King Elessar now ruled, and in Arnor also. In all the lands of those realms of old he was king, save in Rohan only; for he renewed to Éomer the gift of Cirion, and Éomer took again the Oath of Eorl. Often he fulfilled it. For though Sauron had passed, the hatreds and evils that he bred had not died, and the King of the West had many enemies to subdue before the White Tree could grow in peace. And wherever King Elessar went with war King Éomer went with him; and beyond the Sea of Rhûn and on the far fields of the South the thunder of the cavalry of the Mark was heard, and the White Horse upon Green flew in many winds until Éomer grew old."<ref name=Mark />

:::It depends on how literally you want to take the statement "'''all the lands''' of those realms '''of old'''." It also depends on whether, given the entire context of the quote, you believe that Elessar required territorial expansion in order to "subdue" his "many enemies" and resolve those "hatreds and evils that [Sauron] bred" that were an obstacle to "peace." I'm going to have to give the matter further thought and come up with a few alternatives. In any case, I will note the maximum historical borders of Gondor + Arnor in some manner. I'm also currently working on grafting Umbar onto the south of this map by tracing from the General Map; we'll see how that goes.

:::As for the rest:
::: * Excluding Fangorn from both the RK and Rohan seems justified to me given that no Men ever lived there (or likely ''could'' live there, on account of the Huorns).
::: * As you suggest, I plan to use a lighter shade of whatever color I use to show the RK proper to depict the Shire, Drúadan Forest, and Watchwood. Probably deep blue for the RK, lighter blue for the enclaves.
::: * I think that depicting the Shire and the Westmarch separately in some way is appropriate because the Westmarch was only gifted in F.O. 31. I don't know if a third shade or a pattern of some kind would look better; we'll see how it shakes out.
::: * It's plausible to me that Gimli and the Dwarves of the Glittering Caves owed some kind of responsibility to the King of Rohan. Whatever the specifics of their relationship, I think it's still worth differentiating Aglarond from the rest of Rohan because the Dwarves aren't ordinary Rohirrim and their migration was a new thing in the Fourth Age.
:::--[[Special:Contributions/75.118.149.152|75.118.149.152]] 09:00, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

===Shire===
It is only mentioned that the Shire was made a "King Elessar issues an edict that Men are not to enter the Shire, and he makes it a Free Land under the protection of the Northern Scepre" in Appendix B Later Events concerning the Members of the Fellowship of the Ring S.R. 1427, but not whether this means autonomy and self-rule as part of Arnor or it not being a part of Arnor. However it is mentioned that the Hobbits say "Our King, we call him" about Elessar in Appendix A I (iii) The North-kingdom and the Dúnedain. It appears odd to calle somebody "our" King if one's Country is not part of the Kingdom. It is also mentioned that King Elessar made the Thain of the Shire, the Master (of Buckland) and the Mayor (of the Shire) "Counsellors of the North-kingdom" that Appendix B Later Events concerning the Members of the Fellowship of the Ring S.R. 1434. It would seem odd to make leaders of a realm councillors of a kingdom if the leaders of that realm are not part of the Kingdom. In addition, the Shire used to be part of the Kingdom of Arnor and of the Kingdom of Arthedain before. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhorahil]] 16:43, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

===Drúadan forest===
It is only stated that Aragorn has his heralds announce "The Forest of Drúadan he gives to Ghân-buri-Ghân and his folk, to be their own forwever; and hereafter let no man enter it without their leave" in The Return of the King, Many Partings. "to be their own forever" and "let no man enter it without their leave" sounds very much like Drúadan forest is not part of the Reunited Kingdom, because otherwise he could have said that he as the King issues an edict that Men are not to enter the Forest of Drúadan like the edict that he issued for the Shire.

===Valley of Orthanc===
"But I will give to Ents all this valley to do with it as they will, so long as they keep a watch upon Orthanc and see that none enter it without my leave". This sounds like the valley of Orthanc is not part of the Reunited Kingdom, but that the tower of Orthanc was still part of the Reunited Kingdom, because the King wanted no one to enter without his leave.

===Fangorn Forest===
I deleted Fangorn Forest from the list of areas that were excluded from the Reunited Kingdom with the implication in the article that they had self-governance. I believe that Fangorn Forest was not part of Gondor before the grant of Rohan to the Éotheod. From the description of the borders of Rohan in Cirion and Eorl it seems clear that Fangorn Forest was not part of Rohan and that the northern border of Rohan is the same as the former northern border of Gondor on the western side of the Anduin. If Fangorn Forest ever was a part of Gondor then I can not think of a reason why Gondor would retain Fangorn Forest when the rest was granted to the Éotheod. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhorahil]] 14:37, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

<noinclude>
{{references}}
</noinclude>

Treegarth of Orthanc

2020-11-23T16:51:05Z

75.118.149.152: ref cleanup

{{location infobox
| name=Treegarth of Orthanc
| image=
| caption=
| pronun=
| othernames=Watchwood<ref name=voice>{{TT|Voice}}</ref>
| location=[[Nan Curunír]]
| type=Forest
| description=
| regions=
| towns=
| inhabitants=[[Ents]], [[Huorns]], [[Trees]]
| created=[[22 August]] {{TA|3019}}<ref name=great>{{App|B4}}</ref>
| destroyed=
| events=
}}
{{quote|Welcome to the Treegarth of Orthanc!|[[Treebeard]]<ref name="RKPartings">{{RK|Partings}}</ref>}}

The '''Treegarth of Orthanc''' was the name of the forest established around the tower of [[Orthanc]] in the valley of [[Nan Curunír]].

==History==
Following the [[Ents|Entish]] victory at the [[Battle of Isengard]], many trees stayed around Orthanc to guard [[Saruman]].<ref name="RKPartings" /> Shortly before [[Gandalf]], [[Théoden]] and company departed [[Isengard]] on [[5 March]] {{TA|3019}}, [[Treebeard]] declared that trees would return and that the new forest would be called the "Watchwood".<ref>{{App|B3}}</ref><ref name=voice/>

When Gandalf and company returned on [[22 August]] {{TA|3019}} Treebeard welcomed them to the "Treegarth of Orthanc". The Ents had destroyed the [[Ring of Isengard]] and filled the land with orchards and trees. A stream ran into a clear lake, in the middle of which stood Orthanc the impregnable tower.<ref name=great /><ref name="RKPartings" /> However despite the "watch", Treebeard allowed Saruman to leave the Watchwood.<ref name="RKPartings" />

Within the [[Reunited Kingdom]], [[Aragorn|King Elessar]] granted the Ents complete self-governance of the Treegarth of Orthanc.<ref name="RKPartings" />

{{References}}

[[Category:Entish realms]]
[[Category:Forests]]

Talk:Reunited Kingdom

2020-11-23T09:29:19Z

75.118.149.152: fixed refs

Timeline/Fourth Age

2020-11-23T09:26:23Z

75.118.149.152: style, misc corrections and additions

{| class="TGtable" style="border-collapse: collapse; margin: 0 auto;" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="100%"
! colspan="3" style="background:#e7d1a6;" | Fourth Age
|-
! style="background:#F2E6CE;" | [[Fourth Age|Fo.A.]]
! style="background:#F2E6CE;" | [[Shire Calendar|S.R.]]
! style="background:#F2E6CE;" | Events
|-
| [[Fourth Age 1|1]] || 1422 || The Fourth Age begins in the reckoning of the Shire.<ref name="Chief">{{App|Chief}}</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 2|2]] || 1423 || Death of [[Adelard Took]].<ref name="C2">{{App|C2}}</ref> Birth of [[Frodo Gardner]].<ref name="C4">{{App|C4}}</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 4|4]] || 1425 || Birth of [[Rose Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 6|6]] || 1427 || [[Will Whitfoot]] resigns and [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]] is elected Mayor.<ref name="B5">{{App|B5}}</ref> [[Merry Gardner]] born.<ref name="C4"/> [[Peregrin Took]] marries [[Diamond of Long Cleeve]].<ref name="B5"/> King [[Aragorn|Elessar]] issues an edict that [[Men]] are not to enter the [[Drúadan Forest]] and [[The Shire|Shire]], and he makes it a Free Land under the protection of the Northern Sceptre.<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 7|7]] || 1428 || Death of [[Gaffer Gamgee]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 8|8]] || 1429 || Birth of [[Pippin Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 9|9]] || 1430 || Birth of [[Faramir Took I]] son of [[Peregrin Took]].<ref name="C2"/> Deaths of [[Merimac Brandybuck]]<ref name="C3"/> and [[Vigo Boffin]].<ref name="C6">{{App|C6}}</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 10|10]] || 1431 || Birth of [[Goldilocks Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/> Death of [[Odovacar Bolger]].<ref name="C5">{{App|C5}}</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 11|11]] || 1432 || Death of the [[Saradoc Brandybuck]].<ref name="C3">{{App|C3}}</ref> Meriadoc becomes [[Master of Buckland]] and great gifts are sent to him by King [[Éomer]] and Lady [[Éowyn]] of [[Ithilien]].<ref name="B5"/> Birth of [[Hamfast Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 12|12]] || 1433 || Birth of [[Daisy Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 13|13]] || 1434 || Death of [[Paladin Took II]].<ref name="C2"/> [[Peregrin Took]] becomes the [[Thain]] and King [[Aragorn|Elessar]] makes the Thain, the Master of Buckland and the Mayor to be Counsellors of the North-kingdom.<ref name="B5"/> [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]] elected Mayor for the second time.<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 14|14]] || 1435 || Death of [[Olo Proudfoot]].<ref name="C1">{{App|C1}}</ref>Birth of [[Primrose Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 15|15]] || 1436 || King [[Aragorn|Elessar]] rides north and dwells for a while in [[Annúminas]] by [[Lake Evendim]]. He comes to the [[Brandywine Bridge]], and there greets his friends. He gives the [[Star of the Dúnedain]] to Master [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]], and [[Elanor Gardner|Elanor]] is made a maid of honour to [[Arwen|Queen Arwen]].<ref name="B5"/> Death of [[Glóin]].<ref name="A3"/> Birth of [[Bilbo Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 17|17]] || 1438 || Birth of [[Ruby Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 19|19]] || 1440 || Birth of [[Robin Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/> Death of [[Farmer Cotton]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 20|20]] || 1441 || [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]] elected Mayor for the third time.<ref name="B5"/> [[Legolas]] brought south [[Elves of Mirkwood|Elves out of Greenwood]], and they dwelt in [[Ithilien]], and it became once again the "fairest country in all the westlands."<ref>{{RK|Cormallen}}</ref><ref>{{App|Durin}}</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 21|21]] || 1442 || [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]], [[Rose Cotton|Rose]] and [[Elanor Gardner|Elanor]] ride to [[Gondor]]; Master [[Tolman Cotton Junior|Tolman Cotton]] acts as deputy Mayor.<ref name="B5"/>Birth of [[Tolman Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
|[[Fourth Age 22|22]] || 1443 || [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]], [[Rose Cotton|Rose]] and [[Elanor Gardner|Elanor]] leave [[Gondor]].<ref name="B5"/> Death of [[Filibert Bolger]].<ref name="C5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 27|27]] || 1448 || [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]] elected Mayor for the fourth time.<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 30|30]] || 1451 || [[Elanor Gardner]] weds [[Fastred of Greenholm]] on the Far Downs.<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 31|31]] || 1452 || The [[Westmarch]] becomes a part of [[the Shire]] by the gift of the King. Many hobbits remove to it.<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 33|33]] || 1454 || Birth of [[Elfstan Fairbairn]] son of Fastred and Elanor.<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 34|34]] || 1455 || Death of [[Imrahil]]. [[Elphir]] becomes [[Prince of Dol Amroth]].<ref name="Elendil-221"/> Fastred and Elanor make their dwelling at [[Undertowers]] on the Tower Hills, where their descendants, the [[Fairbairn Family|Fairbairns of the Towers]], dwell for many generations.<ref name="B5"/> [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]] elected Mayor for the fifth time. At his request the [[Thain]] makes Fastred [[Warden of Westmarch]].<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 41|41]] || 1462 || Birth of [[Holfast Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/> [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]] elected Mayor for the sixth time.<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 42|42]] || 1463 || [[Faramir Took I]] weds [[Goldilocks Gardner]].<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 48|48]] || 1469 || [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]] becomes Mayor for seventh and final time.<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 55|55]] || 1476 || [[Samwise Gamgee]] ends his seventh and last term as [[Mayor of Michel Delving]].<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 61|61]] || 1482 || Death of [[Rose Cotton|Rose Gamgee]] on Midyear's Day.<ref name="B5"/> On [[22 September]] [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]] rides out from [[Bag End]] and he comes to the [[Tower Hills]], where he is last seen by [[Elanor]]. He gives her the [[Red Book]] afterwards kept by the [[Fairbairn Family|Fairbairns]]. Samwise passes the Towers, goes to the [[Grey Havens]] and passes over the [[Belegaer|Sea]], last of the Ring-bearers.<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 63|63]] || 1484 || [[Peregrin Took]] commissions a copy of the original [[Red Book|Red Book of the Periannath]], later known as the [[Thain's Book]], at the request of King Elessar. [[Meriadoc Brandybuck]] and Peregrin depart from [[the Shire]] and travel south carrying the book. [[Faramir Took I]] succeeds his father Peregrin as [[Thain]] of [[the Shire]]. Meriadoc comes to [[Edoras]] and is with King [[Éomer]] before he dies in the autumn. Meriadoc and Peregrin come to [[Gondor]] and pass what short years are left to them in that realm, until they die and are laid in [[Rath Dínen]] among the great of [[Gondor]].<ref name="B5"/> [[Elfwine]] becomes [[King of Rohan]].<ref name="A2">{{App|A2}}</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 67|67]] || 1488 || Death of Prince [[Elphir]]. [[Alphros]] becomes [[Prince of Dol Amroth]].<ref name="Elendil-223"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 80|80]] || 1501 || Birth of [[Harding of the Hill]] (Harding Gardner), [[Samwise Gamgee]]'s great-grandson and the last head of the [[Gardner Family]] named in the histories.<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 82|82]] || 1503 || Death of [[Faramir]].<ref name="South">{{App|South}}</ref> [[Elboron]] becomes [[Prince of Ithilien]] and Steward of the [[Reunited Kingdom]].<ref name="Elendil-221">{{PM|Elendil}}, p. 221</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 91|91]] || 1512 || Death of [[Dwalin]] at 340 years of age.<ref name="A3">{{App|A3}}</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 95|95]] || 1516 || Death of [[Alphros]].<ref name="Elendil-223">{{PM|Elendil}}, p 223</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 120|120]] || 1541 || [[1 March]]: King [[Aragorn|Elessar]] dies. It is said that the beds of Meriadoc and Peregrin are set beside the bed of the great king. [[Eldarion]] becomes King of the Reunited Kingdom.<ref name="B5"/> [[Legolas]] builds a grey ship in [[Ithilien]], and with [[Gimli]] sails down [[Anduin]] and so over the [[Belegaer|Sea]]. End in [[Middle-earth]] of the [[Fellowship of the Ring]].<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 121|121]] || 1542 || Death of [[Arwen|Arwen Undómiel]] in [[Lothlórien|Lórien]].<ref>{{App|Tale}}</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 171|171]] || 1592 || A copy of the [[Thain's Book]] is completed in [[Minas Tirith]] by [[Findegil]], the [[King's Writer]]; probably commissioned by an unnamed great-grandson of Peregrin Took. The copy is sent to the Shire, where it is kept in the library at [[Great Smials]].<ref>{{FR|Records}}</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 185|185]] || 1606 || Death of [[Harding of the Hill]].<ref name="Trees">{{PM|Trees}}</ref>{{rp|115}}
|-
| [[Fourth Age 220|220]] || 1641 || [[The New Shadow]] arises.<ref name="Shadow">{{PM|Shadow}}, p. 420</ref> About this time, [[Eldarion]]'s reign comes to an end, presumably with his death.<ref>{{L|338}}</ref>
|-
| ''After 171'' || ''After 1592'' || [[Celeborn]], [[Círdan]], and any other Elves in Middle-earth who remember the First Age depart the Grey Havens on the [[Last Ship]].<ref name=prologue>{{FR|Records}}</ref>
|-
| ''After 171'' || ''After 1592'' || [[Durin VII]] is born, grows to adulthood, and retakes [[Khazad-dûm]] for the Dwarves of [[Durin's Folk]].<ref name="A3"/>
|}
<noinclude>
{{references}}
[[Category:Timelines]]</noinclude>

User talk:Sage

2020-11-23T08:51:14Z

75.118.149.152: /* F.O. 171 or F.O. 172? */ new section

{{w|Hyarion|[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]]}}
==Tale of Years==
It's a known fact that the Tale of Years is full of mistakes, however, most of these were corrected in the [[The Lord of the Rings (50th Anniversary Edition)|50th anniversary edition]]. That should be included as well. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 04:54, 30 July 2008 (EDT)

==Standards==
We should really include this in the welcome message, but just FYI: [[Tolkien Gateway:Manual of Style]]. This is in reference to your use of "LotR" in [[Gildor|Gildor Inglorion]]. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 05:39, 30 July 2008 (EDT)

== Elves ==

What published works say that elves are taller?

[[User:Ælfwine|Ælfwine228]] 20:58, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

:from the Appendices:
*the People of the Great Journey, the People of the Stars. They were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed

:Since the writer of the Appendices is a Man, and his readers are also Men, why would he describe the Eldar as tall and not as short?

:Some characters, both Elves and Men are mentioned to be tall, and I understand these can be understood as 'relativistic'; for example you can say that the Eldar were tall relative to the other Elves, but still shorter than Men (although this explanation is quite tentative, and plausible only if you ''want'' to prove that Elves were shorter). I skimmed through the Silmarillion and saw that while the people of Marach are said to be tall, and while other men described as tall such as Galdor the Tall, most references were about Elves.
:*Ingwë the High King, golden-haired and tall
:*The seven sons of Fëanáro were Maedhros the tall...
:*their sister was Ar-feiniel the White. She was younger in the years of the Eldar than her brothers; and when she was grown to full stature and beauty she was tall and strong
:*[Thingol] tallest of all the Children of Ilúvatar
:*But Eöl, though stooped by his smithwork, was no Dwarf, but a tall Elf of a high kin of the Teleri
:*[Maeglin] was tall and black-haired; his eyes were dark

:I don't argue that the assumption that more Elves than Men tended to be tall, can be proben by a statistical analysis. However if Elves are shorter, why Thingol was to be the tallest of all Elves and Men, and not some Man? [[User:Sage|Sage]] 05:56, 3 August 2008 (EDT)

Well, Tolkien stated that elves and men were at first "of a like size" (that is probably the best description in the whole legendarium for their size difference) in the BOLT2. If this is true, whether they became smaller in later ages or not, Thingol could easily be the tallest of all the Children of Iluvatar, but that doesn't mean that most elves were taller than men. Also, more elves are described as tall in the Silmarillion than men because the Silmarillion was almost all about elves, and the very few central character men that were in it were often described as tall, such as Tuor and Turin, as were many men of later ages, especially of Numenorian decent.

While the elves may not be shorter than men in general, I do not think it can be said with certainty that they are taller. By the way, can we make a real talk page/forum for this?
[[User:Ælfwine|Ælfwine228]] 17:48, 3 August 2008 (EDT)
:I am new here, I don't know the process so be my guest. But as a last note, I also remember in BOLT 1 that Elves are shorter, and I was shocked. Furthermore, I think I also read a comment that this idea was later dropped. Anyway I hope you are aware that the BOLT books take place in a different 'continuity' and shouldn't be considered as guides for the general canon. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 17:51, 3 August 2008 (EDT)

Perhaps they shouldn't be considered canon, but from '''''Tolkien's Legendarium; Essays on The History of Middle-earth'''''; "...there are Tolkien's latest thoughts, his best thoughts, and his published thoughts and these are not necessarily the same."
That is probably the wisest analysis that I have ever read about the world of Middle earth.
[[User:Ælfwine|Ælfwine228]] 18:31, 3 August 2008 (EDT)

==Amras==

Hi and welcome to TG (I never "officially" got to greet you). [[Amras]] now. I know it is not much what you wrote, but please don't do it again in the future when you see that "claimed" tag. I am asking this of you as nice as I can and I can only hope that you'll understand it. I know you saw a mistake and wanted to correct it, but keep in mind that all the Sons will get rewritten by me to the last word in those articles, so all the errors will be fixed. It is just a matter of time. There are over 7000 articles here. I'm sure there's plenty of work for all of us. All the best! :) ~~ [[User:Þelma|Þelma]] 05:24, 4 August 2008 (EDT)
:Yes I know you are asking it nicely (I am not of those hot-tempered people who frown at each scolding :P) and I understand. But last time I asked I was told its usage was mainly to avoid edit conflicts and loss of data, therefore it's not always that ''bad'' to edit minimally those articles in the meantime (of course there is a problem with larger edits). So my edit was to make sure that you wouldn't miss that mistake and leave it there intact. Anyway I won't do this again (at least with your claimed articles :)). I trust you will do a good work. Namarie :) [[User:Sage|Sage]] 06:41, 4 August 2008 (EDT)

::My bad for that. I voiced my personal opinion. Like I said, guidelines are too grey. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 06:58, 4 August 2008 (EDT)

::: Sage - It's a good thing at least one of us isn't from that kind of hot-tempered people :)) If you won't agree with something I'll write in future articles (for various reasons, like better knowledge of the text), feel free to drop me a message and corrections will be made, promise. Ederchil - There's no such thing as "my bad" here. :) Thank you both for understanding. ~~ [[User:Þelma|Þelma]] 13:52, 4 August 2008 (EDT)

==Dwarf names==
A couple of things... there are several etymological theories about the Dwarf-names in the ''Dvergatal''. Therefore, I think it's important to state the source of the translation, and add others as well. Also, place Etymolgies above Genealogies, and use double ", not '. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 03:49, 5 August 2008 (EDT)
:Right away [[User:Sage|Sage]] 04:50, 5 August 2008 (EDT)

::And maybe it's handy to mention the language as well, re: [[Arkenstone]]. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 10:20, 5 August 2008 (EDT)

== Meetings ==

Hi Sage! I just wanted to draw your attention to [[Forum:Meetings|here]]. We are currently discussing the idea of a weekly site meeting. Thanks!--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 18:11, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

==Individual Tengwar==
Since you're listing the Westron names, you should really mention ''Report from Marquette'' by Jim Allan among the references. Even if you haven't read it. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 05:07, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

==References==
Hiya. Just a note: <nowiki><ref> tags don't work unless you include a <references/> section at the end (or rather, a <references> section). </nowiki>-- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 08:02, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

==[[:Template:HM]]==
Any thoughts? Other than "Expand to include LotR, S, H and UT" and "Add chapters"? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 12:45, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

== Next Meeting ==

It is planned that we hold our next meeting on the [[Tolkien Gateway:Meetings/5 April 2009|5th of April 2009]], please inform us if you can attend [[Tolkien Gateway talk:Meetings/5 April 2009|here]].--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 18:40, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

== Re: Geia!==
Geia sou kai esena! dystyxws den to exw to allo vivlio tou Tsouli alla to xw diavasei... o typos einai kamenos.

Xairomai pou kai alloi ellhnares diavazoun Tolkien kai grafoun so Tolkien Gateway. Kai se eixa dei polles fores sto Recent changes kai den hxera oti eisai ellhnas... nomizw pws sou eixa grapsei ena talk page se kapoio athro sta agglika... [[User:Mthomas|mthomas]] 15:30, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

==Next Meeting==

Sorry to clutter up your talk page, but just informing you about the next meeting. It is planned that we hold our next meeting on '''Monday''' the [[Tolkien Gateway:Meetings/13 April 2009|13th of April 2009]], please inform us if you can attend [[Tolkien Gateway talk:Meetings/13 April 2009|here]]. Remember that it's on Easter Monday, not Easter Sunday. Thanks!--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 13:21, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
==Xristos Anesth==
Xristos Anesth re patriwth! xronia polla![[User:Mthomas|mthomas]] 08:14, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

==Multiple language words==
Just a question how to deal with words that exist in multiple languages - [[Tur]], [[Tûr]], [[Aran]] for example. What layout do we use? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 11:35, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
==Orcs==
Exw dei edw kai kairo oti psaxnete gia contributors stin selida twn Orcs. Loipon, ama psaxnete akomh endiaferomai egw na voithisw giati ta goustarw poly ta Orcs. Oti idees exeis pes mou. [[User:Mthomas|mthomas]] 14:48, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

==Tengwar==
A lot of the tengwar pages require specific fonts, and people that don't have those fonts installed get gibberish. How about a template at the top, saying "for optimal reading, this page requires any of the following fonts"? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 18:47, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

==[[Common Eldarin|CE]] "3"==
I see you use the 3 to represent the [[wikipedia:Yogh|yogh]]/ʒ. If you look at the edittools bar ("Insert:") at the bottom, you can see the actual symbol next to the dagger symbol. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 11:28, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

== [[Amrod]] (and [[Amras]]) ==

You’re not wrong in what you added to the etymology of that name (although ''Ambaráto'' is the Telerin form, appropriate for Aegnor, whereas Amrod would of course have the Quenya form ''Ambarto''), but unfortunately it makes the messed up alignment of names that was already there even worse. Have a look at what I wrote on the Talk pages of both twins, and see if you can follow what I argue. Feel free to get back to me (or add to the Talk pages) when you got problems. But I think probably the time has come to untangle the mess and reorganise both articles (on the twins). I would be glad of your opinion on that. — [[User:Mithrennaith|Mithrennaith]] 04:40, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

== Upcoming Meeting ==

Hi Sage, I was wondering if you wanted to attend an upcoming meeting this Sunday. If you can make, please [[Tolkien Gateway talk:Meetings/27 June 2010|sign up]]. Thanks! --{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 16:21, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

== Cirth/Angerthas ==

Hi Sage, I was wondering why you moved Angerthas Daeron, Angerthas Erebor and Angerthas Moria to [[Cirth/Angerthas Daeron]], [[Cirth/Angerthas Erebor]] and [[Cirth/Angerthas Moria]] respectively? It seems somewhat counter-intuitive to me (especially as no article links directly to these three), and I'm not sure what they mean as subtitles: are they meant to be subpages of [[Cirth]] or are you just indicating in the titles that "''cirth''" can be used as another name for "''angerthas''"? Would you object if I were to move them back to their original articles? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 15:22, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

==New words==
Hi Sage! Sorry to trespass your linguistic ground by creating an article for ''[[Mae]]''. Since you have more experience on this field, do you have any thoughts on what I did on the page? --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 16:31, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

== Meeting - Sunday 5th September ==

Hi, Sage! Just a quick message to inform you that we are holding our next [[Tolkien Gateway:Meetings|Meeting]] on [[Tolkien Gateway:Meetings/5 September 2010|Sunday, 5th September 2010]] at 7pm [[wikipedia:UTC|UTC]]. Whether you are or aren't able to attend, please sign your name on the [[Tolkien Gateway talk:Meetings/5 September 2010|here]]. Hope to see you on Sunday! --{{User:Mith/sig}} 18:16, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

== Meeting - Sunday 3rd October ==

Hi Sage - do you reckon you'll be available for [[Tolkien Gateway talk:Meetings/3 October 2010|tomorrow's meeting]]? It would be good to see you there! --{{User:Mith/sig}} 20:18, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

== A Few Issues ==

Just a few things I think you should know about:
* This may seem trivial, but could you make sure that you end your sentences in a full-stop?
* When quoting, you should indicate such with quotation marks, otherwise it is technically plagiarism.
* With regards to references, [[Template:References]] has to be at the bottom of the article, or else they won't work (see [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Amon_Amarth&curid=1115&oldid=128927 this], for example).
* Also re: referencing, could you make sure you include page numbers for all publications save for ''The Hobbit'', ''The Lord of the Rings'', ''The Silmarillion'' and ''The Unfinished Tales''; in particular, '' A Readers' Companion'' has only one pagination so there is no need to omit page numbers.
**I am using a copy of ''Nomenclature'' that was handed to me before the Companion was published, so I can't know the pages. In any case I think it is not necessary, since the Nomenclature is arranged like a dictionary. If that's a problem, then I should reference simply "Nomenclature" instead. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 00:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
* There's no need to remove interwiki links (unless they are incorrect).
**You mean the links to other languages? That must be by accident, I didn't meddle with those. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 00:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
* Also, I really must ask that you don't move articles unless there is clear reason, and when you do, use the Move button at the top of the page, and don't copy and paste. The problem with copying and pasting is that it separates an article from its history and therefore obscures its development. Obviously, if the article is spelt incorrectly, is clearly under an under-used name, or uses our old verbose disambiguation system, you can move it without debate, but otherwise it's best to just do a quick message on the talk page (and if no one replies assume it's safe to proceed).
**I try to separate English-named articles from Elvish-named articles. My personal rule of thumb is that the main article is under the English name; the Elvish articles have a link to the main article, and linguistic/etymological notes. When I see e.g. both Silvertine and Zirakzigil redirect to Celebdil, the best thing I can do is replace the redirects with actual content, and copy the bulk of the text to the one that fits most; I can't put an explanation of "tine" in the article for Celebdil, and I can't create an article for Silvertine only to put this explanation. The 'Move' action was unavailable because the target was occupied by the redirects. I understand that copying instead of moving must cause such issues, but while in the fever of adding etymologies and encountering these obstacles, I confess that the issues you mentioned seemed trivial at that moment *blush* [[User:Sage|Sage]] 00:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
* Disambiguation pages should only include the actual articles which require disambiguating - etymological information (other than a brief description in the opening line) should be seeded into the individual articles.
**I fail to understand the reason. Why should the etymology of the name "Hurin" be copied to the five articles of the five individuals called Hurin and not in the single disambiguation page? In similar cases I'd write the full etymology in the disambig page and in the individual articles put a "See Hurin (disambiguation)" link under "Etymology". It seems cleaner and tidier that way. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 00:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
* Re: categorisation. There is no point categorising articles in categories which don't exist; it does nothing and just puts a redlink at the bottom of the page. Creation categories (and categorising them), is exactly the same as creation (and categorising) articles. (See [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Oathbreakers&oldid=128044 this] for the redlink.)
None of the above is meant in vitriol, rudeness, admonition or patronisation: it's just a few pointers to make sure that TG conforms to the very highest standards to be something we can all be proud of. Do keep up the work, here - you are a ''very'' valued contributor. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 17:08, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

:Also, be sure to follow the advice given {{Redlink|[[Portal:Locations/Category tree|here]]}} on the Locations category structure. It seems a lot of editors don't understand the structure I put in place, that page should go some way in explaining what to do (if unsure, just ask me :) ). --{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 17:56, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

== File:Beleriand-eriador-fonstad.png ==
[[File:Steven White Jr. - ME FA 02.gif|thumb|right|150px]]
Hi there. Can you please tell me whose maps you used to create the compound map? The basic Beleriand map is obviously the one derived by me (with the cut-outs where the forst labels are in CT's original map) when I first attempted to join CT's maps at Mount Himring. See an earlier sketch of said map on the right. I wonder how that ended up on the web at all...
[[User:Smeagol|Smeagol]] 23:28, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

:Hi there. I made this composition some years ago, using elements from various maps I had found online. My purpose was to portray a "sunken" Beleriand with the 3rd Age outline of Lindon, and Fonstad's North. It seems that I used your composite map as a base (yes, the one where you have Himring marked in red). When I edited the map recently in order to upload it, I had a [[Wikipedia:false memory|false memory]] that my base had been Fonstad's Arda map, including the shores and outlines; but now that you made me check again, I saw that the southern shoreline as she envisioned it, differs greatly from this one. It turns out that the greater part of this map is your work. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 01:29, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

::You mean the one on the right? Where did you find that? The file is almost 10 years old and I had forgotten about it. I later adjusted the southern coastline, as can be seen on the map in my user page. Those were the days before Photoshop :-) Maybe I should get into the mapmaking business again. My clash with the Tolkien Estate is 6 years back, after all. [[User:Smeagol|Smeagol]] 07:05, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
:::I had a newer version of that map of yours, part of a big collection of fan-made maps I had downloaded from fansites. I think this one was on Tolkienion.com? [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:20, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

::::Ah, that may be. I had to remove the maps section of the Tolkienion when I got in trouble over the maps. However, the maps still exist [http://7a6972656f5f74637568.killerhor.net/index2.php?framesource=indexframe.php here]. But the map you used is not there. I have lost a couple of maps when I had a hard drive failure a few years back. [[User:Smeagol|Smeagol]] 13:45, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

==Elvish roots/stems==

Hello Sage. I have a question about how to interpret a specific form often occurring in the ''Etymologies''. For example, for the base AK-, the form *''akrā'' appears, after which follows the Quenya and Noldorin forms. Now, my question is: what is the form *''akrā'' supposed to signify? Primitive Quendian? --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 13:28, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

:Thanks for the quick answer (for other editors, see [[User talk:Morgan#Roots]])! I hope you don't mind that I have some related questions (I suggest that you answer here, since that makes it easier to follow the conversation):
#Which form should we use as title for these articles? ÁLAT- or just ÁLAT? I've noticed that earlier root articles omit the hyphen. Is this intentional? I started to include the hyphens in the articles I just created, since this is how they appear in the ''Etymologies''.
**I guess the hyphens indicate that the roots are not complete words. Since this is one of the definitions of a root, and '''all''' roots have one, I consider trivial such an indication. If you look at Ardalambion or linguistic discussions in the mailing lists, there is no hyphen. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 08:03, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
#How should we think about the e/ë question in Quenya words? Should the name of the article be, for example, aiwe or aiwë?
**I am against using the diaereses for several reasons, but I think the TG prefers to include them. A couple of Quenya articles I wrote were renamed by some other editor. In any case, I never use them :D [[User:Sage|Sage]] 08:03, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
***According to Fauskanger, "''Tolkien often uses the diaeresis (two dots as in Manwë) to clarify the pronunciation of Elvish names for readers of English, but it is hardly ever used in the Etymologies, a work that was never intended for wider circulation.''" ([http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/index/indexs.htm]). Perhaps this is a good reason to actually use the diaereses? Or is it possible for you to explain the reasons against using them? I just noticed the issue in the article on ''[[yáve]]''. I found out that the spelling ''yávë'' is used in ''The Silmarillion'' (appendix) - isn't then this the more "proper" (canonical?) spelling? --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 20:13, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
#A general linguistic remark: right now, the standard on TG is to use the past tense in article text which is "inside" the legendarium. However, in linguistic texts (such as etymology sections and "dictionary" articles on specific words) we always use the present tense. Is there a reason behind these different uses? --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 14:51, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
**I see that languages, as abstract entities, are outside of time. Once a language exists, its vocabulary and rules will always "exist", even if the language itself is dead or ancient. For example everyone says "Amor in Latin means love" rather than "meant". [[User:Sage|Sage]] 08:03, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
***Good point. --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 20:13, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
===Dots===
The dots signify nothing to Quenya itself. Tolkien in his personal writings (and the Elves) did not use dots. Its quite different from the accents which '''are''' significant to the language and denote a long vowel; yave and yáve would be two different words, with different pronunciation, and different Tengwar spelling. 
On the contrary, the dots don't exist in the language and are of course not represented in tengwar. Tolkien invented them for the published books only to visually assist the occasional English readers to remember that ''e'' is pronounced. In fact, all ''e''s in Quenya are pronounced but the English (or French, who also has silent ''e''s) reader perhaps needs such a reminder. yáve and yávë are not different spellings, they are exactly the same thing, only that yávë is perhaps more visually helpful for the English (or the French). 
The reason '''not''' to use the dots, besides being not a part of the language, is that it's quite more complicated to write and search in the wiki for ''yávë'' than ''yáve''. 
And if I may mention, in Albanian ''ë'' signifies a silent ''e'', so it would have the contrary effect to an Albanian reader :) [[User:Sage|Sage]] 12:08, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

:I am personally in favour of the diaereses: this is an English-language website aimed at those who know English - diaereses have a clear meaning in English which I think it is important to maintain. Furthermore, should we be over-ruling the Professor's use of diaereses?

:The problem of typing/searching can be solved by redirects. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 01:31, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

::I agree with Mith, I think we should use Yávë, with Yáve as redirects. --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]]
::I'd argue that the Professor used the diaereses with publication in mind, not as a rule-not-to-be-over-ruled; or else such forms would be seen in HoMe. It would be interested to bring the matter up in the forum, what do you say? [[User:Sage|Sage]] 20:03, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

:::I don't know if a publication post-mortem can really be conclusive evidence either way of the professor's intentions. However, as you point out, the Professor included diaereses with publication in mind and he never had HOME in mind for publication (and if he did we can't know that he wouldn't have gone through adding diaereses). I think it's a moot point, really.
:::Furthermore, is it not confusing to readers not so well-versed in Tolkienian linguistics to encounter words lacking diaereses where they think they should see them? (I notice, for instance, that many scholars retain diaereses where Tolkien uses them.)
:::I know it can be hard for non-native speakers of English to understand, but the diaereses really is a valuable tool in aiding pronunciation amongst native speakers (remember Cate Blanchett's "''The light of Erendil''"!), and, contrary to popular belief amongst some (non-native speakers) scholars, it is understand by many: words such as coöperate, continuüm, reëlect, zoölogy and naïve as well as names like Chloë, Zaïre, Boötes, and the Brontë Sisters. Notwithstanding the above, I would still support the use of diaereses as a distinguishing feature of unusualness: in English, any form of diacritic signifies "''I am a foreign word.''" - it creates an aura of intrigue and mystery which I wouldn't wish to lose.
:::It would be good if you could attend [[Tolkien Gateway talk:Meetings/5 December 2010|the meeting today]], I've added this issue on the list of things to discuss. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 01:44, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

==Elvish/PQ==
Hi Sage! I just wanted to draw your attention to this question of mine: [[Talk:ÁS-AT]] --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 19:36, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

== Second Age Globe ==

As you pointed out, I completely forgot that Arda wasn't made round until the end of the Second Age. I really like the images you put together for the First Age and Third Age globes as I used in my [[User:KingAragorn/Sandbox|sandbox]] for the location portal. Would it be possible for you to create a Second Age globe in the same style? --{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 23:00, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

==Boromir and Beornings==
Hello Sage! Just drawing you attention to [[Talk:Boromir#Etymology]] and [[Talk:Beornings]], where I discuss your edits.--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 01:54, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

==Use of asterisk==
I noted that you use both single and double asterisks in the article on [[Valaraukar]]. I think the use needs to be explained, either by making the asterisks into links (as was my initial idea), or, as can be seen here [[Talk:*]], where [[User:Mith]] is of the opinion that we should avoid the use of asterisk altogether. --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 15:04, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

:I am not sure on what you want me to comment [[User:Sage|Sage]] 09:36, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

::What does the double asterisk (**) signify? --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 20:16, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

:::The double asterisk is explained in [[asterisk]] :) [[User:Sage|Sage]] 21:00, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

::::Oh, thank you! :) Then I'll go ahead and make internal links for the asterisks (at least for the time being - since there is a debate on wether we should use asterisks or not). (BTW, don't you find it more convenient to keep a conversation to one talk page? It tends to get confusing having to switch between talk pages when following a conversation.) /Cheers --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 21:04, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

== Taniquetil ==

Hi Sage! On this article I removed the redlinks as I find redlinks ugly whilst showing to the reader where our holes are (and giving false hope that those articles may exist); I personally think redlinks shouldn't be created unless you expect to create the article ''yourself'' or have a realistic expectation that someone else will do so soon. Are you intending on creating articles for ''TĀ'', ''nique'' and ''til''? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 11:13, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
:Hi, personally I don't think redlinks ugly and I consider them only 'work to be done in the future'. For example, if someone ever will create an article for "nique", he will have to manually trace every page containing the word and wikify it. I believe redlinks can be useful by the "Wanted Pages" of the "What links here" features. But I respect the different aesthetics about the wiki. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 12:02, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

::I accept that - and indeed agree - so long as it ''is'' "work to be done in the future" and not just "work someone else ''might'' do at some point"; if an article never gets created the redlink serves no useful function. We have 6690 wanted pages (of which a good chunk are linguistic ones) - a figure which is increasing and not decreasing - so the work isn't really getting done; in the meeting last September I argued, "''let's be honest, they probably aren't all articles waiting to happen''".
::The problem is especially true for linguistic articles because it's such a specialised area there are very few people who know enough to edit those articles and even fewer who are happy to do so, therefore you can't ever realistically expect anyone to ever create those articles. Are you planning on creating links to ''TĀ'', ''nique'' and ''til''? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 12:23, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
:::Well I will have in mind to complete immediately the articles I wikify from now on. I will try to work on complete trees and their related pages when possible. Don't worry about that. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 12:46, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

==PQ/PE==

Hello Sage! I need help on the following: should "Proto-Eldarin" be redirected to Primitive Quendian or Common Eldarin? Or do you think Proto-Eldarin have its own article ([http://reocities.com/athens/parthenon/9902/langlst.html Lisa Star] says that it sometimes seem to refer to PQ and sometimes to CE)? I've tried (without success) to find this term in Tolkien's writings.--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 21:24, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
:Obviously Proto-Eldarin is not an attested form, but a term originating before Tolkien's writings about Primitive Quendian were published, and before any details about the Eldar vs Avari were known. I think it is safe to redirect it to Common Eldarin. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 12:37, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

==Etymology of ''Sauron''==
Sage, do you have ideas/comments on how we should present the etymology of the name ''Sauron'' on Tolkien Gateway? Having investigated it a bit, a complete version is [[User:Morgan/Sandbox6|more complicated]] than what I think could be presented on a general wiki article. As I understand it, Tolkien struggled with deriving ''Sauron'' either from Sindarin ''thaur'' (PE:17, p. 183; EQS), or giving the name a Quenya derivation (''saura'' "cruel") ultimately deriving from a base THAW (PE:17, p. 184; Letter 297). --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 02:11, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
:We can mention both derivations from ''saura'' and ''thaur''. It seems like it is needed an entry on the word ''[[saura]]'' which seems to have suffered most under Tolkien's revisions, and provide them in its article. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 14:17, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
::Thanks - I've added the info to our Sauron etymology section.--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 02:44, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

==Letter 427==
Hi Sage, I just saw you added {{redlink|[[Letter 427]]}} as a reference to [[-nguo]]. This letter does however not exist, could you look into this and add the correct letter? --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 14:53, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

==Legendary locations==
Ah! I had forgotten about the Last Desert - it's a good addition to the template. I'm sure there are some others I haven't thought about.--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 17:14, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

== Images ==

Hello Sage. As you probably know, I've been sorting out images on TG and making sure that they all have the proper file licensing templates. I'm sure that you will agree that this is a mammoth task; therefore I would like to ask for your help sorting out the images that you've uploaded. Please see below for a list of files that need sorting and/or checking.

You noted on these images that they were public domain, so I've put a PD template on them. However, we need to know the author's name so that they can be categorised and named properly.
*{{Redlink|[[File:Rumil2.gif.jpg]]}}
*{{Redlink|[[File:Elemm.gif]]}}
:The author made those as spontaneous doodles. He is not a professional and doesn't pursue any credit, and as far as I know he wouldn't like to have his name published online either. I wonder if we can support the option to name some files as "Anonymous" [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Please check these maps and decide whether you, [[Karen Wynn Fonstad]] (her estate or publisher, I don't know), or someone else owns the copyright. You'll notice that on some I've guessed and put on a file licensing template, but please check them.
:The maps I have marked with an asterisk are derivatives of (usually) Fonstad's works, therefore I don't have the authority to grant any permission to publish them under any term. I think that we should track Fonstad's copyright holders. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
*[[:File:Sage - Almaren.png]]
*[[:File:Sage - Evolution of Arda.jpg]]*
*[[:File:Sage - Reunited Kingdom.png]]
*[[:File:Sage - Middle-earth.jpg]]*
*[[:File:1050.png]]*
*[[:File:1105.png]]*
*[[:File:1115.png]]*
*[[:File:1125.png]]*
*[[:File:1132.png]]*
*[[:File:1149.png]]*
*[[:File:1150.png]]*
*[[:File:1200.png]]*
*[[:File:1300.png]]*
*[[:File:1350.png]]*
*[[:File:1498.png]]*
*[[:File:1129.png]]*
*{{redlink|File:Belfalas 2nd Age.jpg}} (NB: I tried to contact [[Andreas Möhn]] but his e-mail bounced)
*[[:File:Sage - Beleriand and Eriador collage.png]]
:this is a collage of maps by Fonstad, Raw and User:Smeagol [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
*[[:File:Sage - Location of Numenor.png]]*
*[[:File:Sage - Great Plague.png]]
*{{Redlink|[[File:Pan-route.png]]}}*
*{{Redlink|[[File:Overhill-route.png]]}}*
*[[:File:Pauline Baynes - The Little Kingdom.jpg]]
:this is a map by Pauline Baynes, therefore it should take the template that other Baynes' images do. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

I've put an unknown copyright status on these miscellaneous images. Please identify the copyright holder and conact them for permission. If you want me to contact them, just ask.
:I do believe that it would be better if you include these in your existing work. You have better experience in this and you will do quicker and better than if we shared the work. However I will put notes to help you [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
*[[:File:PP banner.jpg]]
:this is a derivative of collective work by members of the GTS. You can contact them from their Facebook page. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
*{{redlink|[[File:Michael Gaydos - TolkienWilliamsLewis.jpg]]}}
*{{redlink|[[File:Daniel reeve.jpg]]}}
:the picture was taken from a package of maps by Decipher. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
*{{redlink|File:Dwafrune.gif}}
*{{redlink|File:Dwarfrunes.JPEG}}
*{{redlink|File:Dansmith.png}}
:these pictures were taken by Dan Smith's font site. FYI I contacted him once but he didn't reply [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
*[[:File:Mani and Sol.jpg]]
:I took the image from [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:M%C3%A1ni_and_S%C3%B3l_by_Lorenz_Fr%C3%B8lich.jpg here]. It belongs in the PD. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
*{{redlink|[[File:Alex lewis.jpg]]}}
:this picture was taken by members of the GTS at Oxonmoot (I think 2002). [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
*{{redlink|[[File:Idril.gif]]}}
:I will try to contact MB and ask him if we can use his heraldry here. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
*{{redlink|[[File:Steve Notley - Bob the Angry Flower's Lord of the Ringz.gif]]}}
*{{redlink|[[File:Gift.jpg]]}}
:This was made by the Hildebrandts [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
*{{redlink|[[File:Brothers Hildebrandt - Return of the King.jpg]]}} (NB: I will try to contact Greg Hildebrandt)
*{{Redlink|[[File:Cave.jpg]]}}
:Made by Wenzel, however I don't know what's the copyright and if he gave permission for this [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Many thanks for your help!--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 10:50, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

::Thanks for the info. I shall grow through them at some point.--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 18:03, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

==Buckland==
See [[Talk:Buckland]]. In no primary source does it talk about Buckland becoming part of the Shire (it does for the Westmarch, however). Indeed "Eastmarch" is not mentioned, but "East March" is (only once).--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 18:03, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

== Category:Greco-Romance names ==

Hey Sage. [[Tolkien Gateway:Meetings/5 August 2012|At the meeting just gone]] we discussed your [[:Category:Greco-Roman names|Category:Greco-Romance names]]. You may have noticed that I moved it (because I thought that you have made a spelling mistake). You can read the discussion [[Tolkien Gateway:Meetings/5 August 2012/Transcript|here]]. As you can see, we decided that it would be best to diffuse the category into "Romanic names" and "Ancient Greek names". Are you happy with this? If so, could you sort it out?--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 21:23, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
:Please have a look at [[Category talk:Greco-Roman names]] [[User:Sage|Sage]] 23:49, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

==Westlands==
I just noticed that your reference in [[Westlands]] didn't work as the parameter "X1" doesn't exist in [[Template:SD]]. I've changed it to "XI" (Epilogue). Was this correct or did you use another chapter as source? --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 16:39, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
:Oops! yes, that's correct :) [[User:Sage|Sage]] 19:09, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

==Alatar and Pallando==

Sage, do you know of any good linguistic analysis of the names ''Alatar'' and ''Pallando''? I made a quick search, but couldn't find any -- surely it must have been discussed in VT or PE? --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 20:19, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

:No, other than the lotr.wikia.com speculates that Pallando is related to palan/palla [[User:Sage|Sage]] 06:54, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

::{{UT|Istari}}, Note 6 says: "''Pallando'', despite the spelling, perhaps contains ''palan'' 'afar', as in ''palantír'' and in ''Palarran'' 'Far Wanderer', the name of Aldarion's ship." This is C.R.T.'s speculation for Pallando, could we speculate Alatar's etymology? Or should we just say that it's unknown?--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 11:10, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

:::Yes we could. There is ''alata'' "great", ''al(a)-'' "blessed" with ''atar'' "father" or ''tar'' "high one" and so on. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 21:20, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

::::Right. Just to make a note of it, Encylopedia of Arda also suggests that ''Alatar'' can be interpreted as "after-comer" [http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/a/alatar.html].--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 21:43, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

== Category:Angicised Westron words ==

Are you going to make ''[[Special:WantedCategories|Category:Angicised Westron words]]''?--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 19:37, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

==Maps==
Who made these maps?
*{{redlink|[[Media:At the crossroads map.png]]}}
*{{redlink|[[Media:Over hill.png]]}}
*{{redlink|[[Media:Short Rest.png]]}}
*{{redlink|[[Media:Roast Mutton.png]]}}--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 23:32, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
:They are croppings from [[:File:Mith01.jpg|this map]] but since they would take the unknown-copyright tag anyway, I didn't bother to add more information for that moment. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 08:35, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

==Lenition/Mutation==
Hello Sage! I noticed that we have no separate page for mutation in Sindarin (like we have for [[lenition]]). Do you reckon such a page could be useful, or do you know if we have any other article to which mutation can be redirected? Thanks --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 18:23, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

==The "Hobbit" week==
Sage, do you have any thoughts about this: can the "archaic" names of the days of the week be said to be Westron, and the later names to be Hobbitish (Kuduk)? I'm just thinking of how to categorize the names according to language.--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 23:53, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
:The names ''Monendei'' and so are Middle English and can be considered "Middle Westron" according to [https://sites.google.com/site/endorenya/language-periodizations this project]. The modern day names ''Monday'' etc can be considered regular developments in "modern" Westron, but I don't think we can tell how much they are proper, or Hobbitish Westron. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 14:34, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
:For example, I am not sure if "Trewsday" was the name also used by the Rangers, Gondorians, Gandalf, etc, or whether they would say *"Treesday". [[User:Sage|Sage]] 14:37, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

==Wintring==
Thanks for correcting my silly edit at the Wintring article, Sage! :-) --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 21:41, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

== Bain pic ==

Since there don't seem to be any other images of Bain on the site (yet), is there really any harm in keeping the shot from "The Desolation of Smaug" as his 'profile pic,' so to speak? --[[User:BalrogTrainer|BalrogTrainer]] 03:24, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

:According to my own personal understanding I wouldn't use it as a main picture of a canonical article, but other than that there isn't any harm keeping it as a profile pic :) [[User:Sage|Sage]] 05:57, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

== Articles needed citations ==

I don't know if you've ever looked through [[:Category:Articles needing citation|Articles needing citation]], but it contains 246 articles to which the <nowiki>{{fact}}</nowiki> template has been applied. For the majority of these it appears to be on etymologies; with this is mind, I was wondering whether you (perhaps with [[User:Morgan]]'s help?) might be willing to go through these articles and either add sources or remove/amend the articles as appropriate? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 19:52, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

== Wereworms ==

There is no image with the wereworms as they appeared in [[The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies]] in tolkien gateway at all.Someone should upload at least an image on tolkien gateway with the wereworms as they appeared in the third Hobbit film.What do you think?

:Good idea! Go on, as I don't have any pictures from that film. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 10:00, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

As i have said, there is no image with the were-worms as they appeared in [[The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies]] in Tolkien Gateway.Can you upload at least an image on Tolkien Gateway with the were-worms as they appeared on the third Hobbit film? You can find on Internet.I don't have the ability to upload images on Tolkien Gateway generally, but you do have this ability.

:I haven't even watched the film. Find me an image and I will consider it. Also, consider creating an account here. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 21:13, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Yes.I already found not only one, but two images:[http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/BotFAWereWorms01.jpg this one] and [http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/8/85/BOTFA_Wereworm.PNG/revision/latest?cb=20150306211236 this one].What do you think? Are these images good or not?

== Discussion ==

I would like to be discussed something generally.Read [[User talk:2.86.255.128#Tolkien Gateway and The Hobbit film|here]].
This place, Trollshaws,appears in the First Hobbit film.You can check it by seeing the movie.I am telling that because [[User:Ederchil]] removes my editing about the Trollshaws in which i say that Trollshaws do appear in the First Hobbit film.You can see it [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Trollshaws&action=history here] or [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Trollshaws&oldid=291125 here]. {{unsignedanon| 2.86.255.128}}
:Please check the others's replies to you, their comments and the edits they do to your edits. The administrators's obligations do NOT include discussing and explaining again ana again their points and correcting the grammar and spelling of our edits. Ederchil said he did this for most of your edits but that can't go on for ever; from a point they will start just reverting your edits, and if you insist, they will block you. As for your edit on Trollshaws, you don't add any useful information (just appearing as in the book isn't something worth to be mentioned) and also you have a grammar mistake, as in almost all of your edits (should be "its role" instead of "'''it's''' role"). [[User:Sage|Sage]] 10:21, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

::The IP address of this anon is in Athens. Would you be able to explain in Greek so the user can better understand why their edits are being undone/reverted/amended? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 23:16, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Yes I am Greek.I am from Athens.{{unsignedanon| 2.86.255.128}}

In case you don't know it,I have already found not one, but two images about the wereworms as they were depicted in the Hobbit film Trilogy:[http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/BotFAWereWorms01.jpg this one] and [http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/8/85/BOTFA_Wereworm.PNG/revision/latest?cb=20150306211236 this one].I found these images a week ago.So, what do you think? Are these images good or not? --[[User talk:2.86.255.128|2.86.255.128]] 00:26, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
:Oi sygkekrimenes den einai poly kales. Na ftiaxeis logariasmo melous wste na mporeis na dhmiourgeis arthra kai na anevazeis eikones. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 11:56, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

OK.I have seen that there is no image uploaded on page [[Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor]] about the game with the same name.I have also seen that only a single image about that game is uploaded here on Tolkien Gateway.Can you upoad at least two images (images-posters I suggest) about that game on Tolkien Gateway? I don't have the ability to upload inages in Tolkien Gateway, but you do have this ability. --[[User talk:2.86.255.128|2.86.255.128]] 21:47, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

:Den kanw tipota mexri na dw oti diavazeis ti sou grafw. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 22:04, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

== Proposition ==

I would like to propose something.I would like not to blog me again from Tolkien Gateway if I did something wrong about the image that I just uploaded.What do you say? [[User:Gegou|Gegou]]

== Evil or Servants of Melkor ==

I am not so sure Sauron and Ungoliant should be in the Servants of Melkor category. Why? They both 'betrayed' him in their own ways: Ungoliant turned on him and attempted to devour him, while Sauron forsook his ties to him before Eonwe (sure he was afraid of the wrath of the Valar, but it's still treachery) and rose as the Enemy of Middle-earth, but pursued his own agenda instead of continuing Morgoth's work.
Both Sauron and Ungoliant served Morgoth (the former more so than the latter), but they ultimately had their own purposes in mind. They joined him and carried out his bidding, but at those respective times it suited them as well: Morgoth undermined the influence of the Valar which later proved useful in Sauron's rise; Morgoth destroyed the Two Trees, allowing Ungoliant to feed on their Light and briefly sate her hunger.
What I'm saying is neither is a truly loyal ally/servant. We don't even know if Sauron returned to Morgoth after his defeat by Huan and Luthien. He fled to Taur-nu-Fuin, not Angband. He might not have participated at all in the War of Wrath, explaining why he escaped the triumph of Valinor's host and why Eonwe even bothered to listen to his (un)genuine repetance.
Also, on the Evil Category page it says: "Articles about evil. Evil individuals, evil places, evil objects, etc. For people, this includes the Dark Lords, evil chieftains, or otherwise doers of great evil. Servants." Sauron is a Dark Lord and Ungoliant is a doer of evil. --[[User:LordoftheEarth|LordoftheEarth]] 10:10, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

:I agree with removing the 'Servant of Melkor' category for Ungoliant. It is never mentioned that Ungoliant served Morgoth, they were temporal allies; and what kind of servant tries to eat his master? However, Sauron was faithful to Morgoth and his porpouses even after the First Age (both in promoting the dark cult in Númenor and becoming the new Dark Lord). He deserves to be in the 'Evil' category, though. --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 10:22, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

It was not loyalty that made Sauron promote the worship of Morgoth. Think of his situation. He is a master of Darkness, but he is now something between a prisoner and an adviser. He could hardly propound himself as a God at that time. Morgoth's name, however, and its association with evil could be used on the other hand to great effect. Let's hear J.R.R. himself:

Sauron was not a ‘sincere’ atheist, but he preached atheism, because it weakened resistance to himself (and he had ceased to fear God’s action in Arda) [...] he spoke of Melkor in Melkor’s own terms: as a god, or even as God. This may have been the residue of a state which was in a sense a shadow of good [...] Melkor, and still more Sauron himself afterwards, both profited by this darkened shadow of good and services of ‘worshippers’. '''But it may be doubted whether even such a shadow of good was still sincerely operative in Sauron by that time'''. '''His cunning motive is probably best expressed thus. To wean one of the God-fearing from their allegiance it is best to propound another unseen object of allegiance and another hope of benefits; propound to him a Lord who will sanction what he desires and not forbid it. Sauron, apparently a defeated rival for world-power, now a mere hostage, can hardly propound himself; but as the former servant and disciple of Melkor, the worship of Melkor will raise him from hostage to high priest.''' --[[User:LordoftheEarth|LordoftheEarth]] 10:29, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
::Sauron's categorization as "servant of M" is not because of his situation on Numenor, but being his lieutenant and minion during the First Age, as all the Maiar who followed him. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 18:56, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

==Lost Tales==
Hi Sage! On the matter you told me early this year, about making a subwiki for the "LT-continuity", maybe we could begin creating categories and templates for Gnomes? You said to make "Lost Tales characters" categories, but many of them exist beyond the LT, but categorizing them as "Gnomes" could be a step further and will remove the anachronical "Noldo" categories/templates that many have. What do you think? --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 21:47, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

== [[Melian]] <nowiki><ref name=s4/></nowiki> [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Melian&diff=next&oldid=311926] ==

It seems that you did not add text for this reference in April. Is it {{[[Template:S|S]]|4}}: {{S|4}}? [[User:BartekChom|BartekChom]] 16:45, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

== Battle under the trees ==

Hi Sage. I just wanted to say thank you for reviewing and editing my page: Battle Under Tress. (or 'battle under the trees' as you rightly corrected me) I've been part of Tolkien Gateway for a few months now and only made minimum edits to some fairly obscure pages. You editing my page on the battle under the trees has made me feel like a part of a community for the first time here. so, nothing but, Thank You.

== Category:Races in The Book of Lost Tales ==

What is your plan with [[:Category:Races in The Book of Lost Tales]]? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 19:25, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

P.S. You've got a non-existent template on your user page. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 19:25, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

== First Edition of The Lord of the Rings ==
Did you see my entries in the talk page of your user page for the first edition of The Lord of the Rings? I did a search for the keyword "edition" in all volumes of the History of Middle-earth that deal with the history of The Lord of the Rings and its appendices and also read the 50th anniversary edition. I do not own a copy of the first edition of The Lord of the Rings, so it could be that a manual comparison between the first edition and the second edition will show further differences. I did not check the prologue or any of the other appendices than Appendix A and Appendix B. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhorahil]] 13:44, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
:Thank you very much, all contributions are welcome, I am very happy that you find this "collection" interesting. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 17:04, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

== F.O. 171 or F.O. 172? ==

Hi Sage! I tried asking this same question on Mith's Talk but got no answer. Hoping you might be able to share some insight.

I noticed that references to [[Fourth Age 172|F.O. 172]] across the wiki have been mostly corrected to [[Fourth Age 171|F.O. 171]]. I can't find a reason for this that wouldn't also apply to other Fourth Age years; the note on F.O. 171 states only that the Gondor reckoning of the date of copying of the Red Book of Westmarch from the Thain's Book is F.O. 172 without getting into the ''why'' of the matter. Can you shed some light on this? I'd like to add a more robust explanation on [[Fourth Age 171|F.O. 171]] for the discrepancy if possible. Thanks! --[[Special:Contributions/75.118.149.152|75.118.149.152]] 08:51, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Talk:Reunited Kingdom

2020-11-23T07:53:54Z

75.118.149.152: /* Geography */ feedback and discussion on new map, borders of RK

Last Alliance of Elves and Men

2020-11-23T07:13:38Z

75.118.149.152: real fix

{{organization infobox
| name=Last Alliance of Elves and Men
| image=[[File:Jenny Dolfen - The Last Alliance.jpg|250px]]
| caption="The Last Alliance" by [[Jenny Dolfen]]
| pronun=
| othernames=
| founded={{SA|3430}}
| founder=[[Gil-galad]] and [[Elendil]]
| purpose=Prevent conquest by [[Sauron]]
| members=[[Dúnedain]]; [[Elves of Lindon]], [[Rivendell]], [[Elves of Mirkwood|Mirkwood]], and [[Galadhrim|Lothlórien]]; [[Dwarves of Khazad-dûm]]; birds and beasts<ref>{{S|Rings}}</ref>
| location=[[Imladris]], drawn from all parts of northwestern [[Middle-earth]]
| disbanded={{SA|3441}}
| notablefor=Defeating [[Sauron]]
| gallery=the Last Alliance
}}
'''The Last Alliance of Elves and Men''' was formed in {{SA|3430|n}} of the [[Second Age]] in response to the threat of conquest by the Dark Lord [[Sauron]].<ref name=SA>{{App|SA}}</ref>

==History==
Sauron had been contending with the [[Elves]] for mastery of Middle-earth for over 1200 years. Fearing the establishment of the powerful kingdoms in exile — [[Arnor]] and [[Gondor]] — by his hated enemies, the [[Dúnedain]], Sauron launched a pre-emptive attack on Gondor in {{SA|3429}}.

[[Isildur]] left [[Minas Ithil]] for the north to meet his father and [[High King of the Dúnedain]] [[Elendil]], whilst [[Anárion]], Elendil's younger son, defended [[Osgiliath]] against the hosts of [[Mordor]].<ref name=SA/>

In response, Elendil formed an alliance with [[Gil-galad]], the [[High King of the Noldor]], to repel Sauron's assault in {{SA|3430}}.<ref name=SA/> [[Durin's Folk]] also joined. It is said that Elendil bound the Alliance with an oath and invoked the name of [[Eru]] to witness it.<ref name=Cirion>{{UT|Cirion}}</ref> Eru's name was very rarely invoked in oaths, and among the [[Númenóreans]] it was held that only the King could call upon Him. This would happen again only thousands of years later during the [[Oath of Cirion]].<ref name=Cirion/>

It is said that the hosts of Gil-galad joined Elendil at [[Weathertop|Amon Sûl]]<Ref name=Knife>{{FR|Knife}}</ref> and marched towards Imladris in {{SA|3431}} where they camped for three years,<ref name=SA/> forging armour and making plans.{{fact}}
[[File:Angel Falto - Elf Last Alliance.jpg|200px|thumb|left|''Last Alliance'' by [[:Category:Images by Angel Falto|Angel Falto]]]]
Finally in {{SA|3434}} the armies crossed the [[Misty Mountains]] at various locations; Gil-galad and [[Isildur]] crossed the [[Pass of Imladris]] and the [[Pass of Caradhras]], and they were so large, that the [[Orcs of Mordor]] sent by Sauron to harry them, hid themselves.<ref>{{UT|Gladden}}</ref> Their forces were strengthened in the [[Vales of Anduin]] by Elves from [[Lothlórien]] and [[Mirkwood|Greenwood the Great]] under the command of [[Oropher]] and [[Amdír]] and by the Dwarves of [[Moria|Khazad-dûm]].

When Sauron learned of their advance, he burned the former [[Brown Lands|Gardens]] of the [[Entwives]] to hinder them down the [[Anduin]].<ref>{{L|144}}</ref>

Soon they reached [[Dagorlad]] where they met and defeated Sauron's army in the [[Battle of Dagorlad]], breached the [[Morannon]] into [[Mordor]], and besieged the Dark Lord's fortress of [[Barad-dûr]]. The siege lasted for seven years, during which [[Anárion]] was slain. It culminated in Sauron leaving his fortress and engaging in direct combat.<ref name=SA/>

Sauron was felled by Gil-galad and Elendil, who both perished in the assault themselves.<ref name=SA/> Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron's finger.<ref>{{FR|II2}}</ref> Bereft of the power of the One Ring, Sauron's spirit dissipated and would not take form again in Middle-earth for a thousand years.

With the victory over Sauron and the death of Gil-galad and Elendil, the Last Alliance was dissolved. The remaining Númenóreans resettled their [[Realms in Exile|kingdoms]].
{{references}}
[[Category:Armies]]

==See also==
* '''[[War of the Last Alliance]]''' (Military information)
*[[Union of Maedhros]], a similar alliance of the [[First Age]]

[[Category:Gondorians]]
[[Category:Elves]]
[[de:Letztes Bündnis]]
[[fr:encyclo:evenements:2a:derniere_alliance_des_elfes_et_des_hommes]]
[[fi:Haltioiden ja Ihmisten Viimeinen Liitto]]

Last Alliance of Elves and Men

2020-11-23T07:11:37Z

75.118.149.152: fixed broken ref, but I don't think the ref is accurate

{{organization infobox
| name=Last Alliance of Elves and Men
| image=[[File:Jenny Dolfen - The Last Alliance.jpg|250px]]
| caption="The Last Alliance" by [[Jenny Dolfen]]
| pronun=
| othernames=
| founded={{SA|3430}}
| founder=[[Gil-galad]] and [[Elendil]]
| purpose=Prevent conquest by [[Sauron]]
| members=[[Dúnedain]]; [[Elves of Lindon]], [[Rivendell]], [[Elves of Mirkwood|Mirkwood]], and [[Galadhrim|Lothlórien]]; [[Dwarves of Khazad-dûm]]; birds and beasts<ref>{{S|Rings}}</ref>
| location=[[Imladris]], drawn from all parts of northwestern [[Middle-earth]]
| disbanded={{SA|3441}}
| notablefor=Defeating [[Sauron]]
| gallery=the Last Alliance
}}
'''The Last Alliance of Elves and Men''' was formed in {{SA|3430|n}} of the [[Second Age]] in response to the threat of conquest by the Dark Lord [[Sauron]].<ref name=SA>{{App|SA}}</ref>

==History==
Sauron had been contending with the [[Elves]] for mastery of Middle-earth for over 1200 years. Fearing the establishment of the powerful kingdoms in exile — [[Arnor]] and [[Gondor]] — by his hated enemies, the [[Dúnedain]], Sauron launched a pre-emptive attack on Gondor in {{SA|3429}}.

[[Isildur]] left [[Minas Ithil]] for the north to meet his father and [[High King of the Dúnedain]] [[Elendil]], whilst [[Anárion]], Elendil's younger son, defended [[Osgiliath]] against the hosts of [[Mordor]].<ref name=SA/>

In response, Elendil formed an alliance with [[Gil-galad]], the [[High King of the Noldor]], to repel Sauron's assault in {{SA|3430}}.<ref name=SA/> [[Durin's Folk]] also joined. It is said that Elendil bound the Alliance with an oath and invoked the name of [[Eru]] to witness it.<ref name=Cirion>{{UT|Cirion}}</ref> Eru's name was very rarely invoked in oaths, and among the [[Númenóreans]] it was held that only the King could call upon Him. This would happen again only thousands of years later during the [[Oath of Cirion]].<ref name=Cirion/>

It is said that the hosts of Gil-galad joined Elendil at [[Weathertop|Amon Sûl]]<Ref name=knife>{{FR|knife}}</ref> and marched towards Imladris in {{SA|3431}} where they camped for three years,<ref name=SA/> forging armour and making plans.{{fact}}
[[File:Angel Falto - Elf Last Alliance.jpg|200px|thumb|left|''Last Alliance'' by [[:Category:Images by Angel Falto|Angel Falto]]]]
Finally in {{SA|3434}} the armies crossed the [[Misty Mountains]] at various locations; Gil-galad and [[Isildur]] crossed the [[Pass of Imladris]] and the [[Pass of Caradhras]], and they were so large, that the [[Orcs of Mordor]] sent by Sauron to harry them, hid themselves.<ref>{{UT|Gladden}}</ref> Their forces were strengthened in the [[Vales of Anduin]] by Elves from [[Lothlórien]] and [[Mirkwood|Greenwood the Great]] under the command of [[Oropher]] and [[Amdír]] and by the Dwarves of [[Moria|Khazad-dûm]].

When Sauron learned of their advance, he burned the former [[Brown Lands|Gardens]] of the [[Entwives]] to hinder them down the [[Anduin]].<ref>{{L|144}}</ref>

Soon they reached [[Dagorlad]] where they met and defeated Sauron's army in the [[Battle of Dagorlad]], breached the [[Morannon]] into [[Mordor]], and besieged the Dark Lord's fortress of [[Barad-dûr]]. The siege lasted for seven years, during which [[Anárion]] was slain. It culminated in Sauron leaving his fortress and engaging in direct combat.<ref name=SA/>

Sauron was felled by Gil-galad and Elendil, who both perished in the assault themselves.<ref name=SA/> Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron's finger.<ref>{{FR|II2}}</ref> Bereft of the power of the One Ring, Sauron's spirit dissipated and would not take form again in Middle-earth for a thousand years.

With the victory over Sauron and the death of Gil-galad and Elendil, the Last Alliance was dissolved. The remaining Númenóreans resettled their [[Realms in Exile|kingdoms]].
{{references}}
[[Category:Armies]]

==See also==
* '''[[War of the Last Alliance]]''' (Military information)
*[[Union of Maedhros]], a similar alliance of the [[First Age]]

[[Category:Gondorians]]
[[Category:Elves]]
[[de:Letztes Bündnis]]
[[fr:encyclo:evenements:2a:derniere_alliance_des_elfes_et_des_hommes]]
[[fi:Haltioiden ja Ihmisten Viimeinen Liitto]]

Fall of Dol Guldur

2020-11-17T17:31:34Z

75.118.149.152: fixed refs and reworked

{{expansion}}{{unnamed}}
{{disambig-more|The Fall|[[The Fall (disambiguation)]]}}
{{battle
| name=Fall of Dol Guldur
| image=[[Image:Galadriel dol guldur bfmeII.JPG|300px]]
| conflict=[[War of the Ring]]
| date=Began [[28 March|March 28]], ended sometime before [[6 April|April 6]], [[Third Age 3019|TA 3019]]
| place=[[Dol Guldur]]
| result=Destruction of Dol Guldur
| side1=[[Galadhrim]]
| side2=[[Orcs]] and other evil creatures of [[Dol Guldur]]
| commanders1=[[Celeborn]]
| commanders2=Unknown
| forces1=Several thousand?
| forces2=Several thousand?
| casual1=Unknown
| casual2=Almost utter
|}}
{{wotr}}
The '''Fall of Dol Guldur''' was an epic battle of the [[War of the Ring]], culminating the [[Rhovanion]] campaign.
==Prelude==
In [[March]] {{TA|3019}}, Sauron directed his armies in [[Dol Guldur]] to assail the Elves of [[Lórien]] and the [[Woodland Realm]] as part of his northern campaign in the [[War of the Ring]]. These armies made three assaults across the Anduin against Lórien and fought with fire under the trees of Mirkwood, but all these attacks were driven back. It is unknown if [[Khamûl]] or any other [[Ringwraiths]] participated in any of these battles; if so, they were recalled to [[Mordor]] before the [[Battle of the Morannon]] on [[25 March]].<ref name=great>{{App|Great}}</ref>

Upon the destruction of the [[One Ring]] that same day, the [[Shadow]] of [[Sauron]] was lifted from the hearts of his enemies and fear and despair fell upon his servants and allies.<ref name=great />
== The Battle==
On [[28 March]], [[Celeborn]] led the [[Galadhrim]] across the [[Anduin]] on many boats and took Dol Guldur.<ref>{{App|Chief}}</ref> After the battle, [[Galadriel]] came and threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, cleansing the forest.<ref name=great />
== Aftermath ==
On [[6 April|April 6]] Celeborn and [[Thranduil]] met in the midst of the forest and renamed it [[Eryn Lasgalen]], the "Wood of Green Leaves." Celeborn took the land south of [[The Narrows]] for himself and named it [[East Lórien]], while Thranduil took all wood north of the [[Mountains of Mirkwood]]. They gave the middle of the wood to the [[Beornings]] and [[Woodmen]].<ref name=great />
==See also==
*[[Attack on Dol Guldur]]

{{references}}
[[Category:Conflicts of the War of the Ring]]

East Lórien

2020-11-17T16:52:06Z

75.118.149.152: style

'''East Lórien''' was a realm of the Elves founded in southern [[Eryn Lasgalen]] (formerly [[Mirkwood]]) in the wake of the War of the Ring. It was centered around [[Amon Lanc]], the former site of the [[Necromancer]]'s fortress of [[Dol Guldur]]. [[Celeborn]] was its first and last known ruler, and many of its people were [[Galadhrim]], formerly of [[Lothlórien]], who chose to abandon the Golden Wood and resettle in the cleansed eastern Forest.

The borders of East Lórien included all the forest from its southern eaves north to the [[Narrows of the Forest|Narrows]]. At its greatest extent, the realm stretched two hundred miles east to west and over a hundred miles north to south. The forest north of the Narrows was populated by [[Beornings]] and [[Woodmen]].
==History==
During the [[Third Age]], the [[Necromancer]] built [[Dol Guldur]] on the hill of [[Amon Lanc]], which had once held the capital of the [[Woodland Realm]]. During the [[War of the Ring]], [[Galadriel]], Celeborn, and the [[Elves of Lórien]] [[Fall of Dol Guldur|tore down]] Dol Guldur. After the victory, on [[Yestare]], Celeborn met with the Elvenking [[Thranduil]] of the Woodland Realm in the midst of the forest. The two agreed to rename the cleansed Mirkwood to Eryn Lasgalen and divide it between themselves and the Beornings and Woodmen. Thranduil claimed the northern third of the forest, Celeborn claimed the south, and the Beornings and Woodmen were granted the middle.

Celeborn ruled his new realm into the [[Fourth Age]], though he did not remain there long. After a span of only "a few years," he retired to [[Rivendell]] to stay with his grandsons, the sons of Elrond. It is unknown if East Lórien continued as a realm after the departure of its founder, and if so, who may have succeeded him – if anyone. All that is known is that "in the Greenwood the [[Silvan Elves]] remained untroubled" for some time thereafter.<ref>{{App|Great}}</ref>

{{references}}

[[Category:Regions]]
[[Category:Rhovanion]]
[[Category:Elven realms]]

[[de:Ost-Lórien]]
[[fi:Itä-Lórien]]

Mountains of Mirkwood

2020-11-17T16:41:00Z

75.118.149.152: fixed error in borders of re-established Woodland Realm

{{location infobox
| name=Mountains of Mirkwood
| image=
| caption=
| pronun=
| othernames=Emyn Duir, Dark Mountains, Emyn-nu-Fuin
| location=Northern Mirkwood, south of the [[Woodland Realm]]
| type=Mountain range
| description=
| regions=
| towns=
| inhabitants=[[Silvan Elves]]; later other creatures
| created=
| destroyed=
| events=
}}
The '''Mountains of Mirkwood''' lay in the central parts of northern [[Mirkwood]], north of the [[Old Forest Road]]. A jumble of fir-covered, low-lying hills to the west rose to greater heights in the east, together forming a range nearly one hundred miles in length.<ref>{{H|Wilderland}}</ref> Historically, the [[Second Age]] saw these mountains inhabited by [[Silvan Elves]], who knew the range as the ''Emyn Duir'', the Dark Mountains.

During the [[Third Age]], the power of [[Sauron]] spread across the [[Mountains]] as it did throughout the rest of the Forest, they became populated by hideous creatures. Just as [[Mirkwood|Greenwood the Great]] was renamed Mirkwood at this time, its northern hills also took on a new name: ''Emyn-nu-Fuin'', the Mountains of Mirkwood.<ref>{{UT|7}}, Note 14</ref>

After the passing of [[Sauron]] and the [[Fall of Dol Guldur|cleansing]] of Mirkwood that was renamed [[Eryn Lasgalen]], the Mountains became the southern border of the [[Woodland Realm]].<ref>{{app|Great}}</ref>
{{references}}
[[Category:Mountain ranges|Mirkwood]]
[[Category:Rhovanion]]
[[Category:Sindarin locations]]

[[de:Emyn-nu-Fuin]]
[[fi:Tummavuoret]]

Talk:Reunited Kingdom

2020-11-17T16:25:13Z

75.118.149.152: /* Map in the Infobox */

User talk:75.118.149.152

2020-11-17T16:17:30Z

75.118.149.152: /* Welcome */

Hey, I exist, you can leave me notes here. Yes you can. --[[Special:Contributions/75.118.149.152|75.118.149.152]] 15:32, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

<hr />

== Welcome ==

Hello. When using names in possessive, there is no need to type <nowiki>[[Necromancer|Necromancer's]]</nowiki> instead of the more logical and simple <nowiki>[[Necromancer]]'s</nowiki>. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 08:58, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
:Thanks for the tip. --[[Special:Contributions/75.118.149.152|75.118.149.152]] 16:17, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

User talk:Mith/2020

2020-11-16T23:21:00Z

75.118.149.152: /* F.O. 171 or F.O. 172? */ new section

{{talkarchive|2006|2007|2008|2009|2010|2011|2012|2013|2014|2015|2016|2017|2018|2019}}
<table style="border: 1px solid #c0c090; background-color: #f8eaba; width:80%; margin-left: auto; margin-right:auto;"><tr><td rowspan="2">[[Image:Nuvola apps edu languages.png|none|50px|link=]]</td><td><div id="talk" style="text-align: center; padding: 5px; clear: both;><big>'''''Welcome to [[User:Mith|Mith]]'s talk page.'''''</big></div></td></tr><tr><td><ul><li>Please [{{SERVER}}{{localurl:{{NAMESPACE}}:{{PAGENAME}}|action=edit&section=new}} post your new topic at the ''bottom''] of this page, including a '''<nowiki>==Descriptive heading==</nowiki>'''.</li><li>You should sign and date your posts by inserting "'''<nowiki>~~</nowiki>~~'''" at the end of them.</li><li>Please indent your posts with "''':'''" if replying to an existing topic (or "'''::'''" if replying to a reply, etc.).</li><li>I will generally respond ''here'' to comments that are posted here, rather than replying via your talk page (or the article talk page, if you are writing to me about an article), so you may want to [{{SERVER}}{{localurl:{{NAMESPACE}}:{{PAGENAME}}|action=watch}} watch this page].</li><li>If I have left a message on ''your'' talk page, please continue the discussion there; '''DO NOT''' reply here. This is ensure that discussions do not become fragmented over several talk pages.</li></ul>[{{SERVER}}{{localurl:{{NAMESPACE}}:{{PAGENAME}}|action=edit&section=new}} '''⇒ Start a new talk topic.''']</td></tr></table>


==Can you add some pictures for me?==

Hey Mith! I've gotten really into the Shadow of Mordor games and I wanted to write some articles! I've been working on expanding the Shadow of Mordor and Shadow of War articles, but I am also making some on the side characters. I'm currently working on one for Ratbag The Coward. When it's done, could you add some pictures for me? {{unsigned|Shelob'sWeb}}

:I don't upload images for other users, but once you have made sufficient edits you will be able to upload images yourself. However, this is Tolkien Gateway and we generally don't go into that level of detail and the probably better belongs on [https://shadowofwar.fandom.com/wiki/Shadow_of_War_Wiki other] [https://shadowofwar.gamepedia.com/Middle-earth:_Shadow_of_War_Wiki wikis]. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 16:34, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

== Ainulindali Project ==

Hi! I'm currently working on a project comparing the main versions of the ''Ainulindale'': [[User:LorenzoCB/Sandbox#Ainulindali]]. Could I make it an article as [[:Category:Tolkien Gateway research|Tolkien Gateway research]], please? Also, would it fall on copyright infringement? I don't think so, as I'm not giving the full text, but the paragraphs separately. What do you think? --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 13:26, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

:What you're doing is undoubtedly interesting. Unfortunately, it is beyond the scope of this wiki and I almost certainly believe it does amount to copyright infringement when you consider just how much text you are copying. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 13:29, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

::Ok, I'll remove it from my sandbox as soon as I find what to do. Thanks.--[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 14:21, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

== Orcs of Isengard ==

I was wondering if I could make an article on the Orcs in Isengard. Because not all the "Isengarders" were Uruk-hai and Half-orcs/Goblin-men ---- the company led by Uglúk consisted of Uruk-hai like Lugdush as well as Orcs such as Snaga; after imprisoning Gandalf for refusing to submit to Sauron or help him gain the One Ring for himself, Saruman gathered Wolves and Orcs to Isengard.

But don't do they also fall in the Orcs of the Misty Mountains category, as that's were most of them came from to attack Rohan? So, do they deserve their own page, or are they better listed among the Orcs that inhabited Moria, Gundabad, Goblin-Town...? --[[User:LordoftheEarth|LordoftheEarth]] 09:20, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

:Theoretically I don't have an issue with it, but in practical terms I think it might be too granular and not have that much information. What was your thinking? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 16:25, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

==Sauron pictures==
Hello there. I appreciate your recent hard work fixing some articles, but I disagree with removing Sauron's pictures. It was me who added most of them on the grounds that such a big article about a millennia-spanning character would be more aestheticaly pleasing and readable if there is a pic for almost every section. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 18:38, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

:The problem was it was just over-crowded, particularly on higher resolutions; on my computer they were just all stacking on top of each other and it looked a bit of a mess, to be honest. I'm happy for a couple more to come back in but we really can't have an image every second or third paragraph like we had before. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 20:05, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

==Templates==
Hi, could you please allow others to edit the templates like it was before? --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 16:35, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

We want to make a template for the Lords of Gondolin: [[Talk:Twelve Houses of the Gondothlim#A New Template for the Leaders of the Twelve Houses]]. It is fine if you want to take responsibility for the templates, but don't disappear then.--[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 09:43, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

:I've put a suggestion on [[Talk:Twelve Houses of the Gondothlim]] - let me know what you think. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:58, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

== Sorontur ==

I am sorry, did I mix something up? [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Thorondor&action=historysubmit&diff=317952&oldid=317876 In the entry "Sorontur"], there is SORO and reference to Meril-i-Turinqi for -tur. The name Sorontur is mentioned in "[[The Coming of the Valar and the Building of Valinor]]" in the description of the house of Manwë. [[User:BartekChom|BartekChom]] 19:58, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

:Apologies, because the reference was halfway through the sentence I assumed it only applied to the bit in brackets. I have moved it to the end of the sentence and removed the <nowiki>{{fact}}</nowiki>s. Apologies for the confusion. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 20:49, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

:: I am sorry, it applied to the part before it. I cannot see "Thorntor". This name probably appears in another part of HoME. In The Book of Lost Tales I do not see much about the Ilkorin language. [[User:BartekChom|BartekChom]] 16:01, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

== Main Page Error ==

Hey Mith,
I've noticed for the past two weeks (though I've forgotten to mention it the first and second time) that one the place on the Main Page where it indicates the day in the Shire-calendar, the word "[[Mersday]]" is misspelled as "Merstag." I believe that's a typo, but it's causing a redlink and I wanted to bring it to your attention. --{{User:Holdwine Meriadoc/sig}} 23:15, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

:Thanks for letting me know. I've fixed it. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 20:45, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

== Ilinsor and the Moon ==

I am sorry for language errors and writing in ugly and unclear style. Thank you for your corrections. However I would like to preserve details that I added: a) that [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Ilinsor&action=historysubmit&diff=318178&oldid=318173 Ilinsor was Súru, not one of Mánir] (directly in the article about him - I have already readded it) b) (ad [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Moon&diff=next&oldid=317619]) that the Rose was like Silpion (besides it seems that removing dew was the explanations of the phases and wobbling could be another detail, maybe explanation for differing orientation of the crescent moon). c) Before [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=The_Tale_of_the_Sun_and_Moon&curid=36277&diff=318171&oldid=317556] I must have written completely unclear. Eriol was supposed to visit Gilfanon after both of them finish their stay in Lindo's Cottage of Lost Play. (Gilfanon even said (probably joked) to Eriol that one could think that Lindo tries to get rid of two guests at once.) Valar trying to heal the Trees only were only wasting light. Manwë and Aulë told so. I nowhere in the chapter see "rose" with small "r" as a name for the Moon (roses in the garden of Vána withered). That the Sun was too hot is an important detail - that is why the Moon was necessary, and that the Moon was heavier that the Sun is suggested in many places. [[User:BartekChom|BartekChom]] 16:34, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

:On Ilinsor, it is confusing to have "Sylphs (Suru)" without explanation; it's not helpful to the reader. Either remove one or explain both. I removed Suru as the link was the Sylphs, but I've just changed it if it makes you feel more comfortable.

:On the Moon, I think we were straying too far into trivia with a lot of tangential detail on a concept Tolkien later abandoned. That's why I shortened it. If you think I have misrepresented the text then please change it, although I would encourage you to review your spelling and grammar before commiting an edit. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 20:56, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

:: Thank you. Only that I like these details the most. They are in separate sections and do not disturb these reading about canon.
:: Definitely I should check for typos, but I have problems with vocabulary and style. Eg. When to write "said", when "told"? Is it a mechanical rule: "somebody said something" but "somebody told somebody something"? Is it better to use "for" or "because"? When to use "the" before proper names and uncountable and plural nouns? When after "and" ("the sun and (the) moon") and "of" ("the end of (the) night")?
:: I start to suspect that ''Vě'' should be ''Vê'' and ''Űr'' should be ''Ûr''. [[wikipedia:Windows-1250|Windows-1250]], encoding used in Poland, does not have Ê or Û. Should I correct it or wait for someone who has the English version to confirm? [[User:BartekChom|BartekChom]] 05:14, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

:::I get that you liked those details but they were disconnected from other sentences and needed to actually be a part of the narrative. In terms of English, I can't really provide English instruction, but I can confirm that the terms are Vê and Ûr; if you are unsure in future I would suggest avoiding editing articles with those included. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 06:33, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

::::Thank you. Next time I will ask when in doubts. Now I am going to try to connect the details with the narrative. [[User:BartekChom|BartekChom]] 16:01, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

==Devices and more devices==
Hi Mith! I just made a suggestion [[:Category talk:Flags and Devices|here]], but I wanted to point you out that [[:Category:Images of signs and symbols]] needs a clean up. There are up to three files of each image and I don't see the need of that: [[:File:John Howe - Icon Rohan transparent.png]], [[:File:John Howe - Icon Rohan.jpg]], [[:File:John Howe - Rohan nation icon.gif]]. --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 19:32, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

:I agree. The duplications I think were because we were using them in different ways (such as in userbox), but I think in the above example only the first one need be kept. Cheers! --{{User:Mith/sig}} 15:00, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

== Typography ==

In the article [[Timeline/First_Age]], dashes in this line look strange:
: The remaining [[Sons of Fëanor]]--[[Maedhros]], [[Maglor]], [[Amrod]], and [[Amras]] - begin to feel tormented by their [[Oath of Fëanor|unfulfilled oath]].
I suspect that they should be the same (or should they not?), but what variant is correct?
: The remaining [[Sons of Fëanor]]–[[Maedhros]], [[Maglor]], [[Amrod]], and [[Amras]]–begin to feel tormented by their [[Oath of Fëanor|unfulfilled oath]].
: The remaining [[Sons of Fëanor]]—[[Maedhros]], [[Maglor]], [[Amrod]], and [[Amras]]—begin to feel tormented by their [[Oath of Fëanor|unfulfilled oath]].
: The remaining [[Sons of Fëanor]] – [[Maedhros]], [[Maglor]], [[Amrod]], and [[Amras]] – begin to feel tormented by their [[Oath of Fëanor|unfulfilled oath]].
:: Like in the footer: Original design by Vesa Piittinen, redesigned by User:Mith – original artwork used in design by John Howe and Ted Nasmith
: The remaining [[Sons of Fëanor]] — [[Maedhros]], [[Maglor]], [[Amrod]], and [[Amras]] — begin to feel tormented by their [[Oath of Fëanor|unfulfilled oath]].
[[User:BartekChom|BartekChom]] 05:45, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

:Done. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 15:01, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
:: Thank you very much. [[User:BartekChom|BartekChom]] 15:48, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
==Races of BoLT==
Hi there, sorry for forgetting to reply to you. I created that category with the possibility in mind that we might create some categories about BoLT-specific topics, like [[:Category:Characters in The Book of Lost Tales|characters]] and locations (not such category existing yet) that mainly appear there. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 08:46, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

:OK, so what's the plan with that category? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 16:07, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

==Arwen==
Care to explain why you reverted my edit on [[Arwen]]? Thanks. [[Special:Contributions/75.118.149.152|75.118.149.152]] 08:14, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

:Lack of citations. When you press "rollback" it is impossible to provide a reason but you don't get to declare how this wiki functions. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 15:18, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

::Thanks for explaining. I'll rework the content to include citations. [[Special:Contributions/75.118.149.152|75.118.149.152]] 18:46, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

== F.O. 171 or F.O. 172? ==

Hi Mith! I noticed that references to [[Fourth Age 172|F.O. 172]] across the wiki have been mostly corrected to [[Fourth Age 171|F.O. 171]]. I can't find a reason for this that wouldn't also apply to other Fourth Age years; the note on F.O. 171 states only that the Gondor reckoning of the date of copying of the Red Book of Westmarch from the Thain's Book is F.O. 172 without getting into the ''why'' of the matter. Can you shed some light on this? I'd like to add a more robust explanation on [[Fourth Age 171|F.O. 171]] for the discrepancy if possible. Thanks! --[[Special:Contributions/75.118.149.152|75.118.149.152]] 23:21, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Eldarion

2020-11-16T08:49:17Z

75.118.149.152: /* Genealogy */ clarification on claims through Elven heritage

{{gondorian infobox
| name=Eldarion
| image=[[File:Sara M. Morello - Eldarion of Gondor.jpg|250px]]
| caption="Eldarion of Gondor" by [[:Category:Images by Sara M. Morello|Sara M. Morello]]
| pronun=
| othernames=
| titles=Great King, [[High King of the Dúnedain|High King]], King of the Reunited Kingdom
| position=
| location=[[Gondor]] and [[Arnor]]
| affiliation=
| language=[[Westron]]
| birth=Early [[Fourth Age]]
| birthlocation=
| rule={{FoA|120}} - c. {{FoA|220}}<ref group="note">In a 1972 letter concerning ''[[The New Shadow]]'', Tolkien states, "I have written nothing beyond the first few years of the Fourth Age. (Except the beginning of a tale supposed to refer to the end of the reign of Eldarion about 100 years after the death of Aragorn. ...)"</ref><ref name="L338"/>
| death=c. {{FoA|220}}<ref name="L338">{{L|338}}</ref>
| deathlocation=
| age=100+
| notablefor=
| house=[[House of Telcontar]]
| parentage=[[Aragorn|Elessar]] & [[Arwen]]
| siblings=At least 2 sisters<ref name="Tale">{{App|Tale}}</ref>
| spouse=
| children=At least one son<ref name="Elendil"/>
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=[[Andúril]]<ref name="Tale"/>
| steed=
}}'''Eldarion''' ([[Quenya|Q]], pron. {{IPA|[elˈdari.on]}}) was the son of [[Arwen]] and [[Aragorn|Elessar]].

==History==
Eldarion became the second King of the [[Reunited Kingdom]] after the death of his father [[Aragorn|Elessar]] in {{FoA|120}}.<ref name="Tale"/> At the time of his ascending to the throne, Eldarion was "full ripe and ready for kingship". It is known that Eldarion was given the tokens of kingship ([[Andúril]], etc.) by his father, who died soon after the crowning of his son.<ref name="Tale"/> He was also recorded to have several sisters.<ref name="Tale"/>

During Eldarion's reign, [[Findegil]] served as the royal scribe (or King's Writer). In {{FoA|172}}, Findegil wrote a copy of the [[Thain's Book]] for the [[Thain]] of the [[Shire]], probably at the request of [[Peregrin Took]]'s great-grandson. This copy was the only one to include [[Bilbo Baggins|Bilbo]]'s complete [[Translations from the Elvish]], which Bilbo had composed while at [[Rivendell]] during his 'retirement' there.<ref>{{FR|Records}}</ref>

One hundred years into his reign, he encountered a renewal of [[Morgoth]]-worship known as the "[[Dark Tree]]".<ref>{{PM|Shadow}}</ref>

In a 1972 letter concerning ''[[The New Shadow]]'', Tolkien mentioned that Eldarion's reign would have lasted for about 100 years after the death of Aragorn.<ref name="L338"/>

It was foretold that he should rule a great realm, and that it should endure for a hundred generations of [[Men]] after him, that is until a new age brought in again new things; from him should come the kings of many realms in long days after.<ref name="Elendil">{{PM|Elendil}}</ref>
==Etymology==
His name in [[Quenya]] means "Scion of the [[Eldar]]". In [[Letter 338]], [[J.R.R. Tolkien]] spelled this name '''Eldaron''', this is probably a typographic error.<ref name="L338"/>

== Genealogy ==
Eldarion was descended from several royal Elven houses, including the Three High Kings of the Elves, and from the [[Edain]]. He was a grandson of [[Elrond]] and, through his grandmother [[Celebrían]], a great-grandson of [[Galadriel]]. He was the great-grandson of [[Eärendil]] the Mariner (Eldarion is descended from Eärendil on both sides of his family and in him the two genealogical lines of the [[Half-elven]] are reunited), through his Half-elven mother Arwen; he was also the nephew of the Half-elf lords [[Elladan]] and [[Elrohir]]. He was descended also from the great [[Kings of Númenor|Kings of Westernesse]] on his father's side. As well as being the [[Heir of Isildur]] and [[High King of the Dúnedain|High King]], his descent from Elrond and Galadriel through Arwen made Eldarion the lord of the remaining Elf-lands of Middle-earth.<ref name="Elendil"/>

{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree | EAR |y| ELW | | GAL |y| CEL |GAL=[[Galadriel]]|CEL=[[Celeborn]]|EAR=[[Eärendil]]|ELW=[[Elwing]]}}
{{familytree | | | |)|-|-|-|.| | | |!| | | |}}
{{familytree | | | ROS | | RON |y| CLB | | |ROS=[[Elros]]|RON=[[Elrond]]|CLB=[[Celebrían]] }}
{{familytree | | | |:| | | | | |!| | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | KON | | | | |!| | | | | |KON=''[[Kings of Númenor]]''}}
{{familytree | | | |:| | | | | |!| | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | LOA | | | | |!| | | | | |LOA=''[[Lords of Andúnië]]''}}
{{familytree | | | |:| | | | | |!| | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | ELE | | | | |!| | | | | |ELE=[[Elendil]]}}
{{familytree | |,|-|^|-|.| | | |!| | | | | |}}
{{familytree | ISI | | ANA | | |!| | | | | |ISI=[[Isildur]]|ANA=[[Anárion]]}}
{{familytree | |:| | | |:| | | |!| | | | | |}}
{{familytree | KOA | | KOG | | |!| | | | | |KOA=''[[Kings of Arnor]]''|KOG=''[[Kings of Gondor]]''}}
{{familytree | |:| | | |:| | | |!| | | | | |}}
{{familytree | KOA | | OND | | |!| | | | | |OND=[[Ondoher]]|KOA=''[[Kings of Arthedain]]''}}
{{familytree | |:| | | |!| | | |!| | | | | |}}
{{familytree | ARV |y| FIR | | |!| | | | | |ARV=[[Arvedui]]|FIR=[[Fíriel]]}}
{{familytree | | | |:| | | | | |!| | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | COD | | | | |!| | | | | |COD=''[[Chieftains of the Dúnedain]]''}}
{{familytree | | | |:| | | | | |!| | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | ART |y| GIL |!| | | | | |ART=[[Arathorn II]]|GIL=[[Gilraen]]}}
{{familytree | | | | | |!| | | |!| | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | ARA |y| ARW | | | | |ARA=[[Aragorn|Aragorn II]]|ARW=[[Arwen]]}}
{{familytree | | | | | |,|-|^|-|.| | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | ELD | | SDS | | | | |ELD='''ELDARION'''|SDS=''several sisters''}}
{{familytree/end}}

==Portrayal in adaptations==
[[File: The Lord of the Rings - The Return of the King - Eldarion.jpg|Eldarion in ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King]]''|thumb|right]]
'''2003: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King]]'':'''
:While Arwen is on her way to the [[Grey Havens]] to leave Middle-earth and Aragorn, she has a vision of her future son (not named until the credits), which persuades her to stay. The boy is played by [[Sadwyn Brophy]], son of [[Jed Brophy]].
{{notes}}
{{references}}
{{seq-start}}
{{seq-head
| race=gondorian
| house=[[House of Telcontar]] Continuation of the senior branch of the [[House of Isildur]]
}}
{{seq
| prev=[[Aragorn|Elessar]]
| prow=4
| list=35th [[Kings of Gondor|King of Gondor]]
| dates={{FoA|120}} - c. {{FoA|220}}
| next=Unknown
| nrow=4
}}
{{seq
| list=12th [[Kings of Arnor|King of Arnor]]
| dates={{FoA|120}} - c. {{FoA|220}}
}}
{{seq
| list=2nd [[High King of the Dúnedain|High King]] of the [[Reunited Kingdom]]
| dates={{FoA|120}} - c. {{FoA|220}}
}}
{{seq
| list=Head of the [[House of Telcontar]]
| dates={{FoA|120}} - c. {{FoA|220}}
}}
{{seq-end}}
{{northernline}}
{{southernline}}
[[Category:Fourth Age characters]]
[[Category:Gondorians]]
[[Category:House of Telcontar]]
[[Category:Rulers of Arnor]]
[[Category:Rulers of Gondor]]
[[Category:Quenya names]]
[[de:Eldarion]]
[[fr:encyclo:personnages:hommes:4a:gondoriens:eldarion]]
[[fi:Eldarion]]

Timeline/Fourth Age

2020-11-16T08:42:49Z

75.118.149.152: typo

{| class="TGtable" style="border-collapse: collapse; margin: 0 auto;" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="100%"
! colspan="3" style="background:#e7d1a6;" | Fourth Age
|-
! style="background:#F2E6CE;" | [[Fourth Age|Fo.A.]]
! style="background:#F2E6CE;" | [[Shire Calendar|S.R.]]
! style="background:#F2E6CE;" | Events
|-
| [[Fourth Age 1|1]] || 1422 || The Fourth Age begins in the reckoning of the Shire.<ref name="Chief">{{App|Chief}}</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 2|2]] || 1423 || Death of [[Adelard Took]].<ref name="C2">{{App|C2}}</ref> Birth of [[Frodo Gardner]].<ref name="C4">{{App|C4}}</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 4|4]] || 1425 || Birth of [[Rose Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 6|6]] || 1427 || [[Will Whitfoot]] resigns and [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]] is elected Mayor.<ref name="B5">{{App|B5}}</ref> [[Merry Gardner]] born.<ref name="C4"/> [[Peregrin Took]] marries [[Diamond of Long Cleeve]].<ref name="B5"/> King [[Aragorn|Elessar]] issues an edict that [[Men]] are not to enter the [[Drúadan Forest]] and [[The Shire|Shire]], and he makes it a Free Land under the protection of the Northern Sceptre.<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 7|7]] || 1428 || Death of [[Gaffer Gamgee]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 8|8]] || 1429 || Birth of [[Pippin Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 9|9]] || 1430 || Birth of [[Faramir Took I]] son of [[Peregrin Took]].<ref name="C2"/> Deaths of [[Merimac Brandybuck]]<ref name="C3"/> and [[Vigo Boffin]].<ref name="C6">{{App|C6}}</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 10|10]] || 1431 || Birth of [[Goldilocks Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/> Death of [[Odovacar Bolger]].<ref name="C5">{{App|C5}}</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 11|11]] || 1432 || Death of the [[Saradoc Brandybuck]].<ref name="C3">{{App|C3}}</ref> Meriadoc becomes [[Master of Buckland]] and great gifts are sent to him by King [[Éomer]] and Lady [[Éowyn]] of [[Ithilien]].<ref name="B5"/> Birth of [[Hamfast Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 12|12]] || 1433 || Birth of [[Daisy Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 13|13]] || 1434 || Death of [[Paladin Took II]].<ref name="C2"/> [[Peregrin Took]] becomes the [[Thain]] and King [[Aragorn|Elessar]] makes the Thain, the Master of Buckland and the Mayor to be Counsellors of the North-kingdom.<ref name="B5"/> [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]] elected Mayor for the second time.<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 14|14]] || 1435 || Death of [[Olo Proudfoot]].<ref name="C1">{{App|C1}}</ref>Birth of [[Primrose Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 15|15]] || 1436 || King [[Aragorn|Elessar]] rides north and dwells for a while in [[Annúminas]] by [[Lake Evendim]]. He comes to the [[Brandywine Bridge]], and there greets his friends. He gives the [[Star of the Dúnedain]] to Master [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]], and [[Elanor Gardner|Elanor]] is made a maid of honour to [[Arwen|Queen Arwen]].<ref name="B5"/> Death of [[Glóin]].<ref name="A3"/> Birth of [[Bilbo Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 17|17]] || 1438 || Birth of [[Ruby Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 19|19]] || 1440 || Birth of [[Robin Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/> Death of [[Farmer Cotton]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 20|20]] || 1441 || [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]] elected Mayor for the third time.<ref name="B5"/> [[Legolas]] brought south [[Elves of Mirkwood|Elves out of Greenwood]], and they dwelt in [[Ithilien]], and it became once again the "fairest country in all the westlands."<ref>{{RK|Cormallen}}</ref><ref>{{App|Durin}}</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 21|21]] || 1442 || [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]], [[Rose Cotton|Rose]] and [[Elanor Gardner|Elanor]] ride to [[Gondor]]; Master [[Tolman Cotton Junior|Tolman Cotton]] acts as deputy Mayor.<ref name="B5"/>Birth of [[Tolman Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
|[[Fourth Age 22|22]] || 1443 || [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]], [[Rose Cotton|Rose]] and [[Elanor Gardner|Elanor]] leave [[Gondor]].<ref name="B5"/> Death of [[Filibert Bolger]].<ref name="C5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 27|27]] || 1448 || [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]] elected Mayor for the fourth time.<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 30|30]] || 1451 || [[Elanor Gardner]] weds [[Fastred of Greenholm]] on the Far Downs.<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 31|31]] || 1452 || The [[Westmarch]] becomes a part of [[the Shire]] by the gift of the King. Many hobbits remove to it.<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 33|33]] || 1454 || Birth of [[Elfstan Fairbairn]] son of Fastred and Elanor.<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 34|34]] || 1455 || Death of [[Imrahil]]. [[Elphir]] becomes [[Prince of Dol Amroth]].<ref name="Elendil-221"/> Fastred and Elanor make their dwelling at [[Undertowers]] on the Tower Hills, where their descendants, the [[Fairbairn Family|Fairbairns of the Towers]], dwell for many generations.<ref name="B5"/> [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]] elected Mayor for the fifth time. At his request the [[Thain]] makes Fastred [[Warden of Westmarch]].<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 41|41]] || 1462 || Birth of [[Holfast Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/> [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]] elected Mayor for the sixth time.<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 42|42]] || 1463 || [[Faramir Took I]] weds [[Goldilocks Gardner]].<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 48|48]] || 1469 || [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]] becomes Mayor for seventh and final time.<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 55|55]] || 1476 || [[Samwise Gamgee]] ends his seventh and last term as [[Mayor of Michel Delving]].<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 61|61]] || 1482 || Death of [[Rose Cotton|Rose Gamgee]] on Midyear's Day.<ref name="B5"/> On [[22 September]] [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]] rides out from [[Bag End]] and he comes to the [[Tower Hills]], where he is last seen by [[Elanor]]. He gives her the [[Red Book of Westmarch|Red Book]] afterwards kept by the [[Fairbairn Family|Fairbairns]]. Samwise passes the Towers, goes to the [[Grey Havens]] and passed over the [[Belegaer|Sea]], last of the Ring-bearers.<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 63|63]] || 1484 || [[Meriadoc Brandybuck]] and [[Peregrin Took]] depart from [[the Shire]] and travel into the south. [[Faramir Took I]] succeeds his father [[Peregrin Took|Peregrin]] as [[Thain]] of [[the Shire]]. [[Meriadoc Brandybuck|Meriadoc]] comes to [[Edoras]] and is with King [[Éomer]] before he dies in the autumn. Then he and [[Thain]] [[Peregrin Took|Peregrin]] come to [[Gondor]] and pass what short years are left to them in that realm, until they die and are laid in [[Rath Dínen]] among the great of [[Gondor]].<ref name="B5"/> [[Elfwine]] becomes [[King of Rohan]].<ref name="A2">{{App|A2}}</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 67|67]] || 1488 || Death of Prince [[Elphir]]. [[Alphros]] becomes [[Prince of Dol Amroth]].<ref name="Elendil-223"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 80|80]] || 1501 || Birth of [[Harding of the Hill]] (Harding Gardner).<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 82|82]] || 1503 || Death of [[Faramir]].<ref name="South">{{App|South}}</ref> [[Elboron]] becomes [[Prince of Ithilien]] and Steward of the Reunited Kingdom.<ref name="Elendil-221">{{PM|Elendil}}, p. 221</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 91|91]] || 1512 || Apparent death of [[Dwalin]] at 340 years of age.<ref name="A3">{{App|A3}}</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 95|95]] || 1516 || Death of [[Alphros]].<ref name="Elendil-223">{{PM|Elendil}}, p 223</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 120|120]] || 1541 || [[1 March]]: King [[Aragorn|Elessar]] dies. It is said that the beds of [[Meriadoc Brandybuck|Meriadoc]] and [[Peregrin Took|Peregrin]] are set beside the bed of the great king. [[Eldarion]] becomes King of [[Gondor]] and [[Arnor]].<ref name="B5"/> [[Legolas]] builds a grey ship in [[Ithilien]], and with [[Gimli]] sails down [[Anduin]] and so over the [[Belegaer|Sea]]. End in [[Middle-earth]] of the [[Fellowship of the Ring]].<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 121|121]] || 1542 || Death of [[Arwen|Arwen Undómiel]] in [[Lothlórien|Lórien]].<ref>{{App|Tale}}</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 171|171]] || 1592 || A copy of the [[Red Book of Westmarch]] is completed in [[Gondor]] by [[Findegil]], the [[King's Writer]].<ref>{{FR|Records}}</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 185|185]] || 1606 || Death of [[Harding of the Hill]], [[Samwise Gamgee]]'s heir.<ref name="Trees">{{PM|Trees}}</ref>{{rp|115}}
|-
| [[Fourth Age 220|220]] || 1641 || [[The New Shadow]] arises.<ref name="Shadow">{{PM|Shadow}}, p. 420</ref> About this time, [[Eldarion]]'s reign as High King comes to an end, and his presumable death.<ref>{{L|338}}</ref>
|-
| ''After 171'' || ''After 1592'' || [[Celeborn]], [[Círdan]], and any other Elves in Middle-earth who remember the First Age depart the Grey Havens on the [[Last Ship]].<ref name=prologue>{{FR|Records}}</ref>
|-
| ''After 171'' || ''After 1592'' || [[Durin VII]] is born, grows to adulthood, and retakes [[Khazad-dûm]] for the Dwarves.<ref name="A3"/>
|}
<noinclude>
{{references}}
[[Category:Timelines]]</noinclude>

Timeline/Fourth Age

2020-11-16T08:41:50Z

75.118.149.152: added departure of Last Ship, added lower bound to events with unknown dates

{| class="TGtable" style="border-collapse: collapse; margin: 0 auto;" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="100%"
! colspan="3" style="background:#e7d1a6;" | Fourth Age
|-
! style="background:#F2E6CE;" | [[Fourth Age|Fo.A.]]
! style="background:#F2E6CE;" | [[Shire Calendar|S.R.]]
! style="background:#F2E6CE;" | Events
|-
| [[Fourth Age 1|1]] || 1422 || The Fourth Age begins in the reckoning of the Shire.<ref name="Chief">{{App|Chief}}</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 2|2]] || 1423 || Death of [[Adelard Took]].<ref name="C2">{{App|C2}}</ref> Birth of [[Frodo Gardner]].<ref name="C4">{{App|C4}}</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 4|4]] || 1425 || Birth of [[Rose Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 6|6]] || 1427 || [[Will Whitfoot]] resigns and [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]] is elected Mayor.<ref name="B5">{{App|B5}}</ref> [[Merry Gardner]] born.<ref name="C4"/> [[Peregrin Took]] marries [[Diamond of Long Cleeve]].<ref name="B5"/> King [[Aragorn|Elessar]] issues an edict that [[Men]] are not to enter the [[Drúadan Forest]] and [[The Shire|Shire]], and he makes it a Free Land under the protection of the Northern Sceptre.<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 7|7]] || 1428 || Death of [[Gaffer Gamgee]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 8|8]] || 1429 || Birth of [[Pippin Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 9|9]] || 1430 || Birth of [[Faramir Took I]] son of [[Peregrin Took]].<ref name="C2"/> Deaths of [[Merimac Brandybuck]]<ref name="C3"/> and [[Vigo Boffin]].<ref name="C6">{{App|C6}}</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 10|10]] || 1431 || Birth of [[Goldilocks Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/> Death of [[Odovacar Bolger]].<ref name="C5">{{App|C5}}</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 11|11]] || 1432 || Death of the [[Saradoc Brandybuck]].<ref name="C3">{{App|C3}}</ref> Meriadoc becomes [[Master of Buckland]] and great gifts are sent to him by King [[Éomer]] and Lady [[Éowyn]] of [[Ithilien]].<ref name="B5"/> Birth of [[Hamfast Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 12|12]] || 1433 || Birth of [[Daisy Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 13|13]] || 1434 || Death of [[Paladin Took II]].<ref name="C2"/> [[Peregrin Took]] becomes the [[Thain]] and King [[Aragorn|Elessar]] makes the Thain, the Master of Buckland and the Mayor to be Counsellors of the North-kingdom.<ref name="B5"/> [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]] elected Mayor for the second time.<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 14|14]] || 1435 || Death of [[Olo Proudfoot]].<ref name="C1">{{App|C1}}</ref>Birth of [[Primrose Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 15|15]] || 1436 || King [[Aragorn|Elessar]] rides north and dwells for a while in [[Annúminas]] by [[Lake Evendim]]. He comes to the [[Brandywine Bridge]], and there greets his friends. He gives the [[Star of the Dúnedain]] to Master [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]], and [[Elanor Gardner|Elanor]] is made a maid of honour to [[Arwen|Queen Arwen]].<ref name="B5"/> Death of [[Glóin]].<ref name="A3"/> Birth of [[Bilbo Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 17|17]] || 1438 || Birth of [[Ruby Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 19|19]] || 1440 || Birth of [[Robin Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/> Death of [[Farmer Cotton]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 20|20]] || 1441 || [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]] elected Mayor for the third time.<ref name="B5"/> [[Legolas]] brought south [[Elves of Mirkwood|Elves out of Greenwood]], and they dwelt in [[Ithilien]], and it became once again the "fairest country in all the westlands."<ref>{{RK|Cormallen}}</ref><ref>{{App|Durin}}</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 21|21]] || 1442 || [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]], [[Rose Cotton|Rose]] and [[Elanor Gardner|Elanor]] ride to [[Gondor]]; Master [[Tolman Cotton Junior|Tolman Cotton]] acts as deputy Mayor.<ref name="B5"/>Birth of [[Tolman Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/>
|-
|[[Fourth Age 22|22]] || 1443 || [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]], [[Rose Cotton|Rose]] and [[Elanor Gardner|Elanor]] leave [[Gondor]].<ref name="B5"/> Death of [[Filibert Bolger]].<ref name="C5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 27|27]] || 1448 || [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]] elected Mayor for the fourth time.<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 30|30]] || 1451 || [[Elanor Gardner]] weds [[Fastred of Greenholm]] on the Far Downs.<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 31|31]] || 1452 || The [[Westmarch]] becomes a part of [[the Shire]] by the gift of the King. Many hobbits remove to it.<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 33|33]] || 1454 || Birth of [[Elfstan Fairbairn]] son of Fastred and Elanor.<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 34|34]] || 1455 || Death of [[Imrahil]]. [[Elphir]] becomes [[Prince of Dol Amroth]].<ref name="Elendil-221"/> Fastred and Elanor make their dwelling at [[Undertowers]] on the Tower Hills, where their descendants, the [[Fairbairn Family|Fairbairns of the Towers]], dwell for many generations.<ref name="B5"/> [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]] elected Mayor for the fifth time. At his request the [[Thain]] makes Fastred [[Warden of Westmarch]].<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 41|41]] || 1462 || Birth of [[Holfast Gardner]].<ref name="C4"/> [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]] elected Mayor for the sixth time.<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 42|42]] || 1463 || [[Faramir Took I]] weds [[Goldilocks Gardner]].<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 48|48]] || 1469 || [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]] becomes Mayor for seventh and final time.<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 55|55]] || 1476 || [[Samwise Gamgee]] ends his seventh and last term as [[Mayor of Michel Delving]].<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 61|61]] || 1482 || Death of [[Rose Cotton|Rose Gamgee]] on Midyear's Day.<ref name="B5"/> On [[22 September]] [[Samwise Gamgee|Samwise]] rides out from [[Bag End]] and he comes to the [[Tower Hills]], where he is last seen by [[Elanor]]. He gives her the [[Red Book of Westmarch|Red Book]] afterwards kept by the [[Fairbairn Family|Fairbairns]]. Samwise passes the Towers, goes to the [[Grey Havens]] and passed over the [[Belegaer|Sea]], last of the Ring-bearers.<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 63|63]] || 1484 || [[Meriadoc Brandybuck]] and [[Peregrin Took]] depart from [[the Shire]] and travel into the south. [[Faramir Took I]] succeeds his father [[Peregrin Took|Peregrin]] as [[Thain]] of [[the Shire]]. [[Meriadoc Brandybuck|Meriadoc]] comes to [[Edoras]] and is with King [[Éomer]] before he dies in the autumn. Then he and [[Thain]] [[Peregrin Took|Peregrin]] come to [[Gondor]] and pass what short years are left to them in that realm, until they die and are laid in [[Rath Dínen]] among the great of [[Gondor]].<ref name="B5"/> [[Elfwine]] becomes [[King of Rohan]].<ref name="A2">{{App|A2}}</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 67|67]] || 1488 || Death of Prince [[Elphir]]. [[Alphros]] becomes [[Prince of Dol Amroth]].<ref name="Elendil-223"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 80|80]] || 1501 || Birth of [[Harding of the Hill]] (Harding Gardner).<ref name="C4"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 82|82]] || 1503 || Death of [[Faramir]].<ref name="South">{{App|South}}</ref> [[Elboron]] becomes [[Prince of Ithilien]] and Steward of the Reunited Kingdom.<ref name="Elendil-221">{{PM|Elendil}}, p. 221</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 91|91]] || 1512 || Apparent death of [[Dwalin]] at 340 years of age.<ref name="A3">{{App|A3}}</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 95|95]] || 1516 || Death of [[Alphros]].<ref name="Elendil-223">{{PM|Elendil}}, p 223</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 120|120]] || 1541 || [[1 March]]: King [[Aragorn|Elessar]] dies. It is said that the beds of [[Meriadoc Brandybuck|Meriadoc]] and [[Peregrin Took|Peregrin]] are set beside the bed of the great king. [[Eldarion]] becomes King of [[Gondor]] and [[Arnor]].<ref name="B5"/> [[Legolas]] builds a grey ship in [[Ithilien]], and with [[Gimli]] sails down [[Anduin]] and so over the [[Belegaer|Sea]]. End in [[Middle-earth]] of the [[Fellowship of the Ring]].<ref name="B5"/>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 121|121]] || 1542 || Death of [[Arwen|Arwen Undómiel]] in [[Lothlórien|Lórien]].<ref>{{App|Tale}}</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 171|171]] || 1592 || A copy of the [[Red Book of Westmarch]] is completed in [[Gondor]] by [[Findegil]], the [[King's Writer]].<ref>{{FR|Records}}</ref>
|-
| [[Fourth Age 185|185]] || 1606 || Death of [[Harding of the Hill]], [[Samwise Gamgee]]'s heir.<ref name="Trees">{{PM|Trees}}</ref>{{rp|115}}
|-
| [[Fourth Age 220|220]] || 1641 || [[The New Shadow]] arises.<ref name="Shadow">{{PM|Shadow}}, p. 420</ref> About this time, [[Eldarion]]'s reign as High King comes to an end, and his presumable death.<ref>{{L|338}}</ref>
|-
| ''After 171'' || ''After 1592'' || [[Celeborn]], [[Círdan]], and any other Elves in Middle-earth who remembered the First Age depart the Grey Havens on the [[Last Ship]].<ref name=prologue>{{FR|Records}}</ref>
|-
| ''After 171'' || ''After 1592'' || [[Durin VII]] is born, grows to adulthood, and retakes [[Khazad-dûm]] for the Dwarves.<ref name="A3"/>
|}
<noinclude>
{{references}}
[[Category:Timelines]]</noinclude>

Durin VII

2020-11-16T08:19:08Z

75.118.149.152: added lower bound of birth year

{{disambig-more|Durin|[[Durin (disambiguation)]]}}
{{dwarves infobox
| name=Durin VII
| image=
| caption
| pronun=
| othernames=Durin the Last
| titles=[[Kings of Durin's Folk|King of Durin's Folk]] [[Kings of Khazad-dûm|King of Khazad-dûm]]
| position=
| location=[[Erebor]], [[Khazad-dûm]]
| affiliation=
| language=
| birth=After [[Fourth Age 171|F.O. 171]]
| birthlocation=[[Erebor]]
| rule=[[Fourth Age]] - ''Unknown''
| death=
| deathlocation=
| age=
| notablefor=
| house=[[House of Durin]]
| parentage=Descendant of [[Thorin III Stonehelm]]<ref group="note">An alternative version of the genealogical tree of [[Appendix A]] suggested Durin VII was the son of Thorin III.</ref><ref name="Making" />
| siblings=
| spouse=
| children=
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=
| steed=
}}
__NOTOC__
<center>{{quote|There lies his crown in water deep, Till Durin wakes again from sleep.|[[Song of Durin]]<ref>{{FR|Journey}}</ref>}}</center>

'''Durin VII''' (lived in the [[Fourth Age]]) was the last of the six reincarnations of [[Durin|Durin the Deathless]].

==History==
The actions of Durin VII were prophesied long before he was born, at the time of the [[Battle of Azanulbizar]].<ref name="AppA">{{App|Durin}}</ref>

Durin VII was the direct descendant of king [[Thorin III Stonehelm]] (according to some sources, his son).<ref name="Making">{{PM|Aiv}}, p. 278-9</ref>

He led [[Durin's folk]] back to [[Moria|Khazad-dûm]] and restored the ancient kingdom during the [[Fourth Age]]. There his house remained until the world grew old and the Dwarves failed and the days of Durin's race were ended.<ref>{{PM|Dwarves}}</ref>

Durin VII had to have been born after [[Fourth Age 171]], as at the time of the copying of the [[Red Book of Westmarch]], his birth remained a matter of prophecy.

==Etymology==
''Durinn'' is one of the Dwarfs in the ''[[Völuspá|Dvergatal]]''. The name means "Sleepy".<ref>Chester Nathan Gould, "Dwarf-Names: A Study in Old Icelandic Religion", published in ''Publications of the Modern Language Association of America'', Vol 44 (1929), issue #4, pp. 939-967</ref>

== Genealogy ==

{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree | DAI |DAI=[[Dáin Ironfoot|Dáin II Ironfoot]] ''{{TA|2767|n}} - {{TA|3019|n}}''†}}
{{familytree | |!| |}}
{{familytree | THO |THO=[[Thorin Stonehelm|Thorin III Stonehelm]] ''b. {{TA|2866|n}}''}}
{{familytree | |:| |}}
{{familytree | |:| |}}
{{familytree | DUR |DUR='''DURIN VII'''}}
{{familytree/end}}

{{seq-start}}
{{seq-head
| race=dwarf
| house=[[Durin's Folk|House of Durin]]
| born=[[Fourth Age]]
| died=
}}
{{seq
| pvac=Unknown
| prev=Last known: [[Thorin Stonehelm|Thorin III Stonehelm]]
| prow=2
| list=[[Kings of Durin's Folk|King of Durin's Folk]]
| dates=[[Fourth Age]]
| next=Unknown
| nrow=2
}}
{{seq
| list=[[Kings of Khazad-dûm|King of Khazad-dûm]]
| dates=[[Fourth Age]]
}}
{{seq-end}}

{{references|n}}{{durinskings}}
[[Category:Dwarves]]
[[Category:Fourth Age characters]]
[[Category:Longbeards]]
[[de:Durin VII.]]
[[fr:encyclo:personnages:nains:4a:durin_vii]]
[[fi:Durin VII]]

Vanyar

2020-11-16T02:45:34Z

75.118.149.152: corrected ref, noted Idril' descent

{{people infobox
| name=Vanyar
| image=[[File:Jenny Dolfen - Fields of Gold.jpg|250px]]
| caption="[[:File:Jenny Dolfen - Fields of Gold.jpg|Fields of Gold]]" by [[Jenny Dolfen]]
| pronun=[[Quenya|Q]]. {{IPA|[ˈvaɲar]}}
| othernames=''Minyar'' ([[Quenya|Q]]), ''Minil'' ([[Sindarin|S]]), ''Vaniai'' ([[Telerin|T]]), Light-elves, Fair-elves
| origin=
| location=[[Oiolossë]]; [[Valmar]]
| affiliation=[[Host of the Valar]]
| rivalry=
| language=[[Quenya]] ([[Vanyarin]] dialect)
| members=[[Imin]], [[Iminyë]], [[Ingwë]], [[Indis]], [[Elemmírë (Elf)|Elemmírë]], [[Amarië]], and others
| lifespan=[[Immortal]]
| distinctions=Most revered of the [[Three Kindreds]], loved by [[Manwë]]
| height=Tall
| hair=Golden
| skin=Pale
| clothing=
| weapons=
}}
The '''Vanyar''' are one of the three groups of [[Calaquendi|High Elves]], along with the [[Noldor]], and some of the [[Teleri]] (more specifically, the [[Falmari]]). They comprise most of those who did not leave Aman.

== History==
According to legend, the clan was founded by [[Imin]], the first [[Elves|Elf]] to awake in [[Cuiviénen]], his wife [[Iminyë]], and their twelve companions. At this time, they were called the '''Minyar''' (Quenya "first ones").

However, it was [[Ingwë]], the first Vanya to travel with [[Oromë]] to [[Valinor]], who became their king. Always eager to reach Valinor, none of the Vanyar [[Avari|refused to go]] and were on the vanguard of the [[Great March]]; they reached [[Beleriand]] first and sailed on the first voyage of [[Tol Eressëa]] with the [[Noldor]].<ref name=s3/>

At first the Vanyar dwelt in [[Tirion]] with the [[Noldor]], but they loved the light of the [[Two Trees of Valinor]] and settled in the plains and woods [[Valinor]] or the slopes of [[Taniquetil]].<ref name=princes/> Their King Ingwë became the ''[[High King of the Elves]]'' and lived on Taniquetil beneath the halls of [[Manwë]].<ref name=princes>{{S|Princes}}</ref>

After the release of [[Melkor]], they were suspicious of him, being content within the [[Light of Valinor]].<ref>{{S|6}}</ref> In the [[Darkening of Valinor]] they were next to the [[Valar]] and [[Maiar]] inside the [[Ring of Doom]].<ref>{{S|8}}</ref>

A notable Vanya was [[Indis]], the second wife of [[Finwë]] and mother of [[Fingolfin]] and [[Finarfin]]. Her second son Finarfin inherited her golden hair and passed it on to his children, including [[Galadriel]]. Nearly all full-blooded Vanyar were content to remain in Valinor and few were ever seen in [[Middle-earth]],<ref name=s3>{{S|3}}</ref> as they only returned with the [[Host of Valinor]] for the [[War of Wrath]].<ref name=war>{{S|24}}</ref> The only named full Vanya known to have left Valinor against the will of the Valar was [[Elenwë]], the wife of [[Turgon]], who perished crossing the [[Helcaraxë]] and never reached the shores of Middle-earth.<ref>{{S|9}}</ref> Her daughter [[Idril]], who survived the crossing, had the greatest share of Vanyarin blood of any named Exile, being five-eighths Vanyar.

== Description ==
The Vanyar were the first and smallest clan of the Elves, being only fourteen in number in their beginning.<ref>{{WJ|Quendi}} p. 381</ref> All among them had blond hair. They were the most beloved by [[Manwë]] and [[Varda]]<ref name=s3/><ref name=princes/> and the Elder King gave them his gift of poetry and song.<ref>{{S|IIb}}</ref>

In the War of Wrath they held white banners<ref name=war/> and it is said they preferred spears instead of swords and bows.<ref name=spear/>

==Names==
The Vanyar called themselves '''''Minyar''''', "the Firsts", their ancient name. Another name was '''''Ingar''''' or '''''Ingwer''''' which means "Chieftains" (etymologically related to the name [[Ingwë]]). {{fact}}

In [[Sindarin]] they were called '''''[[Miniel|Minil]]''''' (singular ''Miniel'').<ref name=Quendi>{{WJ|Quendi}}, p. 383</ref>

The Vanyar also known under the name "'''Fair-elves'''",<ref name="s3" /> from the fair colour of their hair.<ref>{{S|Index}}, ''Vanyar''</ref> They were also known as the "'''Light-elves'''".<ref>{{H|Flies}}</ref>

In an early form of the Legendarium, they are also called the "Spear-elves" for their love of spears, as opposed to the sword and shield of the Noldor and the bow and arrow of the [[Solosimpi]].<ref name=spear>{{LR|Quenta}}, p. 215 footnote to §29</ref>

==Etymology==
The name ''Vanyar'' means "the Fair" in [[Quenya]], referring to their golden hair. It seems to be from a [[primitive Elvish]] form ''[[bányâ]]''<ref>{{LR|Etymologies}}, p. 351</ref><ref>{{HM|PM}}, p. 402</ref> (stem [[BAN]]) but also from ''[[wanjâ]]'' (stem [[WAN]])<ref>{{HM|WJ}}, p. 383</ref>. The Telerin cognate is '''''Vaniai'''''.<ref name=Quendi></ref>

== Other versions of the legendarium ==
In the earliest versions of [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien's]] [[Legendarium]] (see: ''[[The Book of Lost Tales Part One]]''), the first clan was called '''''Teleri''''' and '''''Lindar''''', names that later were given to the third clan instead (the Elves known as [[Teleri]] in the published version of ''[[The Silmarillion]]'' were called ''[[Solosimpi]]'' back then).

In the [[The Lhammas|''Lhammas'']] (1930s), ''Ingwi'' was a name for an early conception of the Lindar; this name reappeared only once, years later, in the late manuscript ''[[The Shibboleth of Fëanor]]'' (ca. 1968), as [[Christopher Tolkien]] notes.<ref>{{PM|Shibboleth}}, pp. 332, 356 (note 3)</ref>

{{elves}}
{{references}}
[[Category:Elven peoples]]
[[Category:Quenya nouns]]
[[Category:Vanyar| ]]
[[de:Vanyar]]
[[fr:encyclo/peuples/elfes/vanyar]]
[[fi:Vanyar]]

Vanyar

2020-11-16T02:22:16Z

75.118.149.152: /* History */ added note on Elenwë

{{people infobox
| name=Vanyar
| image=[[File:Jenny Dolfen - Fields of Gold.jpg|250px]]
| caption="[[:File:Jenny Dolfen - Fields of Gold.jpg|Fields of Gold]]" by [[Jenny Dolfen]]
| pronun=[[Quenya|Q]]. {{IPA|[ˈvaɲar]}}
| othernames=''Minyar'' ([[Quenya|Q]]), ''Minil'' ([[Sindarin|S]]), ''Vaniai'' ([[Telerin|T]]), Light-elves, Fair-elves
| origin=
| location=[[Oiolossë]]; [[Valmar]]
| affiliation=[[Host of the Valar]]
| rivalry=
| language=[[Quenya]] ([[Vanyarin]] dialect)
| members=[[Imin]], [[Iminyë]], [[Ingwë]], [[Indis]], [[Elemmírë (Elf)|Elemmírë]], [[Amarië]], and others
| lifespan=[[Immortal]]
| distinctions=Most revered of the [[Three Kindreds]], loved by [[Manwë]]
| height=Tall
| hair=Golden
| skin=Pale
| clothing=
| weapons=
}}
The '''Vanyar''' are one of the three groups of [[Calaquendi|High Elves]], along with the [[Noldor]], and some of the [[Teleri]] (more specifically, the [[Falmari]]). They comprise most of those who did not leave Aman.

== History==
According to legend, the clan was founded by [[Imin]], the first [[Elves|Elf]] to awake in [[Cuiviénen]], his wife [[Iminyë]], and their twelve companions. At this time, they were called the '''Minyar''' (Quenya "first ones").

However, it was [[Ingwë]], the first Vanya to travel with [[Oromë]] to [[Valinor]], who became their king. Always eager to reach Valinor, none of the Vanyar [[Avari|refused to go]] and were on the vanguard of the [[Great March]]; they reached [[Beleriand]] first and sailed on the first voyage of [[Tol Eressëa]] with the [[Noldor]].<ref name=s3/>

At first the Vanyar dwelt in [[Tirion]] with the [[Noldor]], but they loved the light of the [[Two Trees of Valinor]] and settled in the plains and woods [[Valinor]] or the slopes of [[Taniquetil]].<ref name=princes/> Their King Ingwë became the ''[[High King of the Elves]]'' and lived on Taniquetil beneath the halls of [[Manwë]].<ref name=princes>{{S|Princes}}</ref>

After the release of [[Melkor]], they were suspicious of him, being content within the [[Light of Valinor]].<ref>{{S|6}}</ref> In the [[Darkening of Valinor]] they were next to the [[Valar]] and [[Maiar]] inside the [[Ring of Doom]].<ref>{{S|8}}</ref>

A notable Vanya was [[Indis]], the second wife of [[Finwë]] and mother of [[Fingolfin]] and [[Finarfin]]. It is from her Vanyarin blood that some Noldor, like [[Galadriel]], gained their golden hair. Nearly all full-blooded Vanyar were content to remain in Valinor and few were ever seen in [[Middle-earth]],<ref name=s3>{{S|3}}</ref> as they only returned with the [[Host of Valinor]] for the [[War of Wrath]].<ref name=war>{{S|24}}</ref> The only named Vanya to leave Valinor against the will of the Valar was [[Elenwë]], the wife of [[Turgon]], who perished crossing the [[Helcaraxë]] and never reached the shores of Middle-earth.<ref>{{PM|XI4}}, pp. 343-344</ref>

== Description ==
The Vanyar were the first and smallest clan of the Elves, being only fourteen in number in their beginning.<ref>{{WJ|Quendi}} p. 381</ref> All among them had blond hair. They were the most beloved by [[Manwë]] and [[Varda]]<ref name=s3/><ref name=princes/> and the Elder King gave them his gift of poetry and song.<ref>{{S|IIb}}</ref>

In the War of Wrath they held white banners<ref name=war/> and it is said they preferred spears instead of swords and bows.<ref name=spear/>

==Names==
The Vanyar called themselves '''''Minyar''''', "the Firsts", their ancient name. Another name was '''''Ingar''''' or '''''Ingwer''''' which means "Chieftains" (etymologically related to the name [[Ingwë]]). {{fact}}

In [[Sindarin]] they were called '''''[[Miniel|Minil]]''''' (singular ''Miniel'').<ref name=Quendi>{{WJ|Quendi}}, p. 383</ref>

The Vanyar also known under the name "'''Fair-elves'''",<ref name="s3" /> from the fair colour of their hair.<ref>{{S|Index}}, ''Vanyar''</ref> They were also known as the "'''Light-elves'''".<ref>{{H|Flies}}</ref>

In an early form of the Legendarium, they are also called the "Spear-elves" for their love of spears, as opposed to the sword and shield of the Noldor and the bow and arrow of the [[Solosimpi]].<ref name=spear>{{LR|Quenta}}, p. 215 footnote to §29</ref>

==Etymology==
The name ''Vanyar'' means "the Fair" in [[Quenya]], referring to their golden hair. It seems to be from a [[primitive Elvish]] form ''[[bányâ]]''<ref>{{LR|Etymologies}}, p. 351</ref><ref>{{HM|PM}}, p. 402</ref> (stem [[BAN]]) but also from ''[[wanjâ]]'' (stem [[WAN]])<ref>{{HM|WJ}}, p. 383</ref>. The Telerin cognate is '''''Vaniai'''''.<ref name=Quendi></ref>

== Other versions of the legendarium ==
In the earliest versions of [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien's]] [[Legendarium]] (see: ''[[The Book of Lost Tales Part One]]''), the first clan was called '''''Teleri''''' and '''''Lindar''''', names that later were given to the third clan instead (the Elves known as [[Teleri]] in the published version of ''[[The Silmarillion]]'' were called ''[[Solosimpi]]'' back then).

In the [[The Lhammas|''Lhammas'']] (1930s), ''Ingwi'' was a name for an early conception of the Lindar; this name reappeared only once, years later, in the late manuscript ''[[The Shibboleth of Fëanor]]'' (ca. 1968), as [[Christopher Tolkien]] notes.<ref>{{PM|Shibboleth}}, pp. 332, 356 (note 3)</ref>

{{elves}}
{{references}}
[[Category:Elven peoples]]
[[Category:Quenya nouns]]
[[Category:Vanyar| ]]
[[de:Vanyar]]
[[fr:encyclo/peuples/elfes/vanyar]]
[[fi:Vanyar]]

Talk:Saruman

2020-11-16T01:35:19Z

75.118.149.152: questioning Saruman's arrival

==Saruman's Arrival==
I think the change from "Saruman arrived alone" to "Saruman [arrived] with Radagast" touches upon the matter of [[canon|canonicity]]. There are different versions of the history of the arrival of the Istari. --[[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 07:13, 16 July 2006 (EDT)

:I'll have to research the matter more so I can refresh my memory. Maybe it would be beneficial to mention both possibilities and their sources so as to let the reader decide? --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 12:28, 16 July 2006 (EDT)

Would anyone else consider it worthwhile to separate the description of Saruman's powers from his history and personality? --[[User:Ted C|Ted C]] 12:07, 10 October 2006 (EDT)

:I think that would be a great idea. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 12:21, 10 October 2006 (EDT)

Revisiting this ''very'' old discussion — I checked on the citation of Appendix B for the statement "Saruman arrived alone in a ship at [[Mithlond]] (the [[Grey Havens]]) in [[Lindon]] around the year 1000 of the [[Third Age]], and only [[Círdan]] knew his identity and his origin." Appendix B says neither that Saruman arrived alone, nor that Círdan was uniquely aware of his identity or his origin. Rather, Appendix B is hazy on the manner of the Istari's arrival, though I believe it implies they arrived as a group. Additionally, it only specifically indicates that Círdan had any particular insight into Gandalf's origin and fate, not Saruman's (though it doesn't preclude any additional knowledge on Círdan's part). Is there a different citation for the arrival of Saruman that backs up the current text, or should this be rewritten to conform to Appendix B? --[[Special:Contributions/75.118.149.152|75.118.149.152]] 01:35, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

== Saruman's Ring ==
Hi, I was reading Saruman's article and it's good but there is something I would like to ask. In the "Chief of the White Council" you have stated that Saruman HAD MADE a ring of power by using the knowledge of the noldor of former Eregion to enchant he's speaking voice. I would like to know WHERE and HOW have you came up with this knowledge because i have read a lot about middle earth and i have never found that Tolkien would have stated that Saruman had knowledge about making a ring of power or actualy made one. Also Where could he have made it? Orthanc or Isengard hadn't great forges before orcs came there and i doubt that forge any made by orc would be hot enough to make a ring of power.
Aromez

13:12

27.11.2009

:I think you raise a valid point, Aromez. Although nowhere it is stated when he made a ring (as far as I know, at least) he did once call himself "Ring-maker", in his conversation with Gandalf, prior to taking the latter hostage: "... I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!"

:Something I noticed myself in the paragraph "Chief of the White Council" is the following sentence: "At this council-meeting Gandalf (for the first time) revealed that he suspected that Saruman desired to possess the One Ring." I think this is not correct. I don't think Gandalf would have revealed in the presence of Saruman his suspicions.
:~ [[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 20:33, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

I have found the text about Saruman saying his ringmaker but i doupt he had actualy made one. Had he made lesser ring of power he could have quickly made a new one ring, rather than waste time in findign one. When Saruman stated that he was ring maker, I think it was more of propaganda than true, afterall he was a liar and great speaker. In finnish Lord of the rings book's First words Tolkien sayid, " Had my story been allorgy to the Great War, One ring would not have been destroyd but used againts Sauron, also Saruman would have traveled to Mordor and found a way to make one ring and eventualy would have made one". (this is my own translation from finnish lord of the rings book, it may not be same from word to word in english text but quite near). So in this text Tolkien makes clearly point that Saruman Didn't make a ring of power or had any knowledge how to make one.

About Gandalf sucpicion towards Saruman is not maybe so non canon. During the last meeting Saruman had insulted Gandalf about his smoking and hobbit knowledge. So Gandalf in turn poked 9 smaller smoke rings and one bigger. Saruman thought that Gandalf knew his madnes to find the one ring and had made warning not to try to find the one ring and also hinted that he had some knowledge were the one ring was. This was all Sarumans own sucpicion but i think that Gandalf indeed made warning to Saruman but not openly and didnt realy thougth that Saruman had betrayed them. i found ths knowledge from the book of Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth. Aromez

01:47

29.11.2009

:Although this is certainly not a discussion board, I'd like to go on a bit further in this discussion nevertheless. The original text of the Foreword you retranslated from Finnish runs like this:
::''The real war does not resemble the legendary war in its process or its conclusion. If it had inspired or directed the development of the legend, then certainly the Ring would have been seized and used against Sauron; he would not have been annihilated but enslaved, and Barad-dûr would not have been destroyed but occupied. Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth. In that conflict both sides would have held hobbits in hatred and contempt: they would not long have survived even as slaves.''
:I read it as saying that in case someone had tried to use the One Ring, that person would become enslaved by it, while Saruman would make use of the ensuing chaos to get the last pieces of information he needed to make a Great Ring for himself. However, this does not mean that he did not have the ability to create a lesser Ring, nor does it mean that he did not make one.

:With regard to Gandalf warning Saruman: the stories from The Unfinished Tales contradict a bit with what we know from The Lord of the Rings. In the chapter The Council of Elrond Gandalf tells that he did not have real suspicions against Saruman before entering Isengard, otherwise he would not have heeded Saruman's invitation. The 'warning' with the smoke rings (the story doesn't say it were nine small smoke rings, btw) during the meeting of the White Council (not the last meeting, but one earlier) can in this light be seen as a warning against the power of the One Ring and against too deep a study of Ring Lore.

:~ [[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 09:00, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Then only one question remains. Why Tolkien never gave us more information about Sarmun's supoused ring? The only information we have is Saruman's own "word's" as a ringmaker. And that he afer Sauron himself knew more than anyone else about the rings of power. So i give up, it's possible that Saruman had made a lesser ring of power but we never can be sure about it. But still just possible not cannon. Also i think that Saruman wouldn't have made a lesser ring of power just to enchant his speaking voice. He was pouwerfull and skillful speaker even after Gandalf stripped of Saruman's power. The ring would have maybe enchated his other wizard powers. By the way Earendylion the text you used is completely same what i used, i'm not just so good translator and dont have english lord of the rings =)

:~ [[User:Aromez|Aromez]] 11:20, 30 November 2009

Saruman had made a Ring, he called himself a Ring-Maker and he weared a Ring at Orthanc when Gandalf meeted him.

''“‘Hij [Saruman] droeg een '''Ring''' aan zijn vinger.’”''

I've only the Dutch quote but in English it is:

''He [Saruman] weared a '''Ring''' at his finger''--[[Special:Contributions/82.176.210.66|82.176.210.66]] 16:30, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

:Hey, fellow Dutchman! I took the liberty to rearrange this discussion a bit, so as to make it clearer.
:I looked for the original text and your translation is almost correct, but for the capital R: ''But I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to the stair of Saruman and there he met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger.'' This to me points to a lesser ring rather than a Ring of Power.
:@ Aromez: not all can be told in a story of course, otherwise a book would become too long and too tiresome to read. Furthermore, 'loose ends' give extra depth to a story: "hey, there's more than just what we read here!"
:~ [[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 16:09, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

== First Quote ==

I reckon we need to change the opening quote of Treebeard. I think we need one that shows how powerful it is and I do not think the current one does him justice. What do you guys think.

:The opening quote is of course about Saruman as we know him best, but doesn't tell the whole story. If you want another (better) quote, you can change the present one. What about the following?
::''[Saruman] is great among the Wise. He is the chief of my order and the head of the Council. His knowledge is deep, but his pride has grown with it, and he takes ill any meddling. The lore of the Elven-rings, great and small, is his province. He has long studied it, seeking the lost secrets of their making (....)'' - Gandalf
:~ [[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 09:08, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

::I completely agree with you. The current one describes only a small aspect of Saruman whereas Gandalf's quote gives a good overview. -- [[User:Eldarion Telcontar|Eldarion Telcontar]] 20:05, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

East Lórien

2020-11-16T00:51:38Z

75.118.149.152: fixed typos; generally reworked

'''East Lórien''' was a realm of the Elves founded in southern [[Eryn Lasgalen]] (formerly [[Mirkwood]]) in the wake of the War of the Ring. It was centered around [[Amon Lanc]], the former site of the [[Necromancer|Necromancer's]] fortress of [[Dol Guldur]]. [[Celeborn]] was its first and last known ruler, and many of its people were [[Galadhrim]], formerly of [[Lothlórien]], who chose to abandon the Golden Wood and resettle in the cleansed eastern Forest.

The borders of East Lórien included all the forest from its southern eaves north to the [[Narrows of the Forest|Narrows]]. At its greatest extent, the realm stretched two hundred miles east to west and over a hundred miles north to south. The forest north of the Narrows was populated by [[Beornings]] and [[Woodmen]].
==History==
During the [[Third Age]], the [[Necromancer]] built [[Dol Guldur]] on the hill of [[Amon Lanc]], which had once held the capital of the [[Woodland Realm]]. During the [[War of the Ring]], [[Galadriel]], Celeborn, and the [[Elves of Lórien]] [[Fall of Dol Guldur|tore down]] Dol Guldur. After the victory, on [[Yestare]], Celeborn met with the Elvenking [[Thranduil]] of the Woodland Realm in the midst of the forest. The two agreed to rename the cleansed Mirkwood to Eryn Lasgalen and divide it between themselves and the Beornings and Woodmen. Thranduil claimed the northern third of the forest, Celeborn claimed the south, and the Beornings and Woodmen were granted the middle.

Celeborn ruled his new realm into the [[Fourth Age]], though he did not remain there long. After a span of only "a few years," he retired to [[Rivendell]] to stay with his grandsons, the sons of Elrond. It is unknown if East Lórien continued as a realm after the departure of its founder, and if so, who may have succeeded him – if anyone. All that is known is that "in the Greenwood the [[Silvan Elves]] remained untroubled" for some time thereafter.<ref>{{App|Great}}</ref>

{{references}}

[[Category:Regions]]
[[Category:Rhovanion]]
[[Category:Elven realms]]

[[de:Ost-Lórien]]
[[fi:Itä-Lórien]]

Thranduil

2020-11-16T00:14:06Z

75.118.149.152: /* War of the Ring */ clarified division of Eryn Lasgalen

{{sindar infobox
| name=Thranduil
| image=[[File:Lourdes Velez - King Thranduil.jpg|250px]]
| caption="King Thanduil" by [[:Category:Images by Lourdes Velez|Lourdes Velez]]
| othernames=The Elvenking
| titles=King of the [[Silvan Elves]] in northern Mirkwood<ref>{{UT|15}}</ref>
| position=
| realm=[[Doriath]]<ref name="Princes">{{UT|6b}}</ref>, [[Lindon]], [[Woodland Realm]]
| affiliation=[[Last Alliance of Elves and Men]]
| language=[[Silvan Elvish|Silvan]], [[Sindarin]], [[Westron]]
| birth=Before {{FA|507}}<ref name="Princes">{{UT|6b}}</ref>
| birthlocation=[[Doriath]]<ref name="Princes"/>
| rule=From {{SA|3434}}
| death=
| deathlocation=
| age=
| house=
| parentage=[[Oropher]]
| siblings=
| spouse=
| children=[[Legolas]]
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=Golden<ref name=H8>{{H|8}}</ref>
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=Sword
| steed=
}}

<center>{{quote|In a great hall with pillars hewn out of the living stone sat the Elvenking on a chair of carven wood. On his head was a crown of berries and red leaves, for the autumn was come again. In the spring he wore a crown of woodland flowers. In his hand he held a carven staff of oak.|''[[The Hobbit]]'', "[[Barrels Out of Bond]]"}}</center>
'''Thranduil''', also known as the '''Elvenking''', was a [[Sindar]]in [[Elves|Elf]] of [[Doriath]]<ref name="Princes"/> and King of the [[Silvan Elves|Silvan]] [[Elves of Mirkwood]] of the [[Woodland Realm]]. Thranduil was son of [[Oropher]] and father of [[Legolas]].

The Elvenking is a name used for the ruler of the [[Woodland Realm]], the realm of the [[Silvan Elves]] in the far northeast of [[Mirkwood]] by the late [[Third Age]].<Ref group=note>While he is nameless throughout the ''[[The Hobbit]]'', his name is first revealed in ''[[The Council of Elrond]]'' chapter of ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' as the father of [[Legolas]].</ref>

==History==
=== Early History ===
Thranduil was one of the [[Iathrim]] who spent his early life in [[Doriath]].<ref name="Princes"/> Following the destruction of [[Beleriand]] and the [[War of Wrath]], most of the [[Noldor]]in exiles and remnants of the [[Sindar]] retreated to [[Lindon]]. The [[Valar]] reinvited these Elves to [[Aman]], but Thranduil, among many others, was unwilling and remained in Lindon.<ref name="Princes"/>
[[Image:Anna Lee - Thranduil and Legolas.jpg|left|thumb|''Thranduil and Legolas'' by [[Anna Lee]]]]

Many of the Sindar left [[Lindon]] and travelled eastward, before the building of the [[Barad-dûr]] in {{SA|1000}}.<ref name="AppB">{{App|B}}</ref> Thranduil is first recorded in this event, when he and his father, [[Oropher]], arrived, in {{SA|750}}, in [[Mirkwood|Greenwood the Great]].<ref>{{PM|Second}}</ref> Oropher was taken by the [[Silvan Elves]] as their lord and founded the [[Woodland Realm]].<ref name="Princes"/>

The [[Elves of Mirkwood]] joined the [[Last Alliance]] and in {{SA|3434}}, Thranduil followed his father and numerous lightly armed Elves in the [[War of the Last Alliance]]. In the [[Battle of Dagorlad]], Oropher was slain in the first assault upon Mordor, "rushing forward at the head of his most doughty warriors before Gil-galad had given the signal for the advance."<ref name="Princes"/> His son survived, but over the course of the war, two-thirds of his people had perished. After the [[Siege of Barad-dûr]] in {{SA|3441}}, when [[Sauron]] was defeated, Thranduil led the remainder of his people north back to the Woodland Realm, where he was crowned king.<ref name="Princes"/>

=== Third Age ===
====The Shadow Returns====
Upon the return of [[Sauron]] - disguised as the [[Sauron|Necromancer]] - in around {{TA|1050}}, southern Greenwood became increasingly dangerous; evil creatures such as the great [[spiders]] came to dwell in it and the forest soon came to be known as "[[Mirkwood]]".<ref>{{App|TA}}</ref> Thranduil's folk retreated to the north of the forest, where they established themselves near the [[Forest River]]. Thranduil had [[Elvenking's Halls|his halls]] delved underground, fashioned partly in memory (it was said) of the mighty, but long-lost, [[Menegroth]] of [[Doriath]].<ref group="note">In the ''[[Lord of the Rings]]'', it is stated by [[Gimli]] that the [[Dwarves]] aided in the making of Thranduil's halls. However, in the ''[[Unfinished Tales]]'', it is stated that Thranduil's halls "were not to be compared with [[Menegroth]]. He had not the arts nor wealth nor the aid of the Dwarves."</ref><ref>{{TT|Road}}</ref><ref name="Princes"/> In north-eastern Mirkwood, they were near the Forest River behind great, stone gates.

====Battle of Five Armies====
[[File:Anke Eißmann - Thorin and Thranduil.jpeg|thumb|right|''Thorin and Thranduil'' by [[Anke Eißmann]]]]
In {{TA|2941}}, Thranduil and some of his folk were feasting in the woods when they were repeatedly disturbed by [[Thorin and Company|a party]] of [[Dwarves]]. After the third disturbance, the Elves captured [[Thorin]] who refused to reveal to Thranduil the reason for their journey through Mirkwood.<ref name="Flies"/> Following their battle with the spiders, the rest of [[Thorin and Company|the company]] was also captured by the Elves. Following their repeated failure to explain their presence in Mirkwood, Thranduil placed all the Dwarves under lock and key. They escaped, however, with the aid of a Hobbit, [[Bilbo Baggins]]. Baggins had evaded capture by Thranduil's people through the use of [[The One Ring|his magic ring]].

After the Dwarves' escape, Thranduil received word of what had transpired from the [[Raft-elves]] who returned up the [[Forest River]]. Thus he was now aware of the Dwarves' quest. Upon learning this, he stated, "no treasure will come back through Mirkwood without my having something to say in the matter."<ref>{{H|Welcome}}</ref> He believed the Dwarves were incapable of slaying the Dragon. However, he soon heard from his own messengers (including the birds) that the [[Dragons|Dragon]] [[Smaug]] had been felled (and the [[Lake-town]] was destroyed).

Thranduil was aware that Smaug had a massive hoard of treasure. Believing the Dwarves to be dead, and desiring a share of the treasure, he set out towards the [[Lonely Mountain]] with a company of Elves. On the way, they met messengers from [[Bard]] who was seeking aid for his destroyed town. Thranduil gave aid to these Men, as the [[Lake-men]] had been friends with the Wood-elves, and left elven craftsmen to aid in the labour and building of huts to fortify them against the coming winter.<ref name="Fire">{{H|Fire}}</ref> Together, Thranduil and Bard led their forces towards the Lonely Mountain and were surprised when they found out that the Dwarves not only survived Smaug's attacks, but had taken possession of the Mountain and its treasures; the [[King under the Mountain]] had returned.
[[File:Ted Nasmith - The Arkenstone.jpg|thumb|left|''The Arkenstone'' by [[Ted Nasmith]]]]

As Thorin refused to give away any part of the treasure for [[Dale]] and Lake-town under armed threat, Thranduil and Bard besieged the mountain. After a few days, a Dwarvish host led by [[Dáin Ironfoot|Dáin II Ironfoot]], who had been summoned by [[Ravens|raven]] messengers, approached to support Thorin. But, two evenings before his arrival, Bilbo came before Thranduil and Bard bringing the [[Arkenstone]], a great jewel that Thorin valued above all, in order to make Thorin open to negotiations again. Thranduil was impressed by Bilbo and urged him to remain in order to avoid Thorin's wrath, but Bilbo returned to his friends. The next morning Bard and Thranduil entered into negotiations with an angered Thorin, who agreed to pay one-fourteenth share of the treasure in exchange for the stone. Thranduil was reluctant to start a war over gold, but when the forces of Dáin arrived the next day, before the trade had been made for the Arkenstone, the Dwarves proceeded to attack.

[[Image:Capucine Mazille - The Battle of Five Armies.jpg|thumb|''The Battle of Five Armies'' by [[:Category:Images by Capucine Mazille|Capucine Mazille]]]]
At that moment, the [[Orcs of the Misty Mountains]] and [[Grey Mountains]] under [[Bolg]] were using the opportunity to march after the hoard, and he was accompanied by a cloud of great bats. After skirmishing among themselves, under the council of Gandalf, the three commanders agreed that the Goblins were the enemies of all. So the [[Battle of Five Armies]] began, "upon one side were the Goblins and the Wild Wolves, and upon the other were Elves and Men and Dwarves."<ref name="Burst">{{H|Burst}}</ref> Thranduil's host was positioned on the southern side of the Mountain, and they were the first to charge. Many Elves and allies were slain and things looked grim when the [[Eagles]] and [[Beorn]] arrived on the battlefield. They turned the tide and the battle was won.

Thorin died soon after the battle. Thranduil laid [[Orcrist]] on Thorin's tomb, where it was said to glow in warning when foes approached.

The victors divided the treasure, with Bard giving Thranduil the emeralds of [[Girion]]. When Bilbo and [[Gandalf]] bade farewell to Thranduil, Bilbo gave him a necklace of silver and pearls. Thranduil gave the [[Hobbits|hobbit]] the title [[Elf-friends|Elf-friend]] and returned with the remainder of his host to his realm in Mirkwood.

====War of the Ring====
On [[21 March]], {{TA|3018}} [[Aragorn]] and [[Gandalf]] delivered [[Gollum]] as a prisoner to Thranduil; but in June he later escaped. Thranduil sent his son [[Legolas]] to Rivendell to inform [[Elrond]], and during the [[Council of Elrond]] Legolas was selected as one of the nine members of the [[Fellowship of the Ring|Company of the Ring]].<ref name="council">{{FR|II2}}</ref> Another member of the Company was the Dwarf, [[Gimli]], the son of [[Glóin]] of [[Thorin and Company|Thorin's company]], who had previously been imprisoned by Thranduil. The unprecedented friendship between Elf and Dwarf helped to reconcile Thranduil's people and the Dwarves.

On [[15 March]], {{TA|3019}}, [[Sauron]]'s army from [[Dol Guldur]] attacked Mirkwood. There was a long [[battle under the trees]] and the woods were set on fire, but in the end Thranduil was victorious. And after the passing of Sauron, the [[Galadhrim|forces]] of the [[Lord and Lady of Galadhrim]] stormed Dol Guldur and threw down its walls, finally cleansing the forest.<Ref name=great>{{App|Great}}</ref>

On [[6 April]]<ref>{{app|chief}}</ref> (the [[Yestare|day of the Elven New Year]]), the Elvenking met with [[Celeborn]] in the midst of Mirkwood and renamed it ''[[Eryn Lasgalen]]'', "The Wood of the Greenleaves". With the forest cleansed and Sauron's forces destroyed, the forest was divided; Celeborn claimed the southern part of the forest north to the Narrows, Thranduil took the northern part of the forest south to the [[Mountains of Mirkwood|Mountains]], and the two Elf-lords granted the middle to the [[Beornings]] and [[Woodmen]]. Thranduil ruled the re-established Woodland Realm into the [[Fourth Age]].<Ref name=great/>

=== Fourth Age ===
Thranduil's ultimate fate is unknown.

== Personality ==
[[Image:Marya Filatova - Thranduil.jpg|right|thumb|200px|''Thranduil'' by [[Marya Filatova]]]]
Although his concern was primarily for his realm, the memory of the end of the [[Second Age]] and what lay outside his borders haunted him:
{{blockquote|But there was in Thranduil's heart a still deeper shadow. He had seen the horror of [[Mordor]] and could not forget it. If ever he looked south its memory dimmed the light of the Sun, and though he knew that it was now broken and deserted and under the vigilance of the Kings of Men, fear spoke in his heart that it was not conquered for ever; it would arise again.|''[[Unfinished Tales]]'', "[[The History of Galadriel and Celeborn]]", "Appendix B: The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves"}}

Thranduil lived in atunement with nature, wearing a crown of woodland flowers, or autumn berries and red leaves, according to the season.<ref name="Barrels">{{H|Barrels}}</ref> His banner was green in colour.<ref>{{H|Gathering}}</ref> He loved the forest, though it was dark and dangerous in many parts; and enjoyed hunting and feasting among the trees with his people.<ref name="Flies">{{H|Flies}}</ref> He was distrustful of strangers for the most part, although he had business dealings with the men of [[Lake-town]].<ref name="Barrels"/> He was mostly unconcerned with affairs of the world beyond Mirkwood unless a common enemy was shared or for trade with "their kinsfolk in the South, or [...] Men in distant lands."<ref name="Barrels"/>

He had a particular fondness for white gems and wanted to acquire more: "if the elf-king had a weakness it was for treasure, especially for silver and white gems; and though his hoard was rich, was eager for more, since he had not yet as great a treasure as other elf-lords of old."<ref name="Flies"/> Despite this weakness, he was wise and would not wantonly go to war, risking his people's lives, over treasure. This was evidenced when the Elvenking said, "long will I tarry, ere I begin this war for gold [...] let us hope still for something that will bring reconciliation."<ref name="Burst"/>

== Etymology ==
{{pronounce|Sindarin - Thranduil.mp3|Gilgamesh}}
The name '''''Thranduil''''' means "Vigorous spring" in [[Sindarin]], from ''[[tharan]]'' ("vigorous") and [[Lenition|lenited]] ''[[tuil]]'' ("spring"). Though the name is said to be of [[Silvan Elvish|Silvan]] origin, Tolkien's notes on ''tharan'' state it was used only in Sindarin.<ref>{{PE|17}}, pp. 27, 187</ref>

== Genealogy ==
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree| ORO |ORO=[[Oropher]] ''d. {{SA|3434}}''}}
{{familytree| |!| |}}
{{familytree| THR |THR='''THRANDUIL''' ''Unknown''}}
{{familytree| |!| |}}
{{familytree| LEG |LEG=[[Legolas]] ''Sailed West {{FoA|120}}''}}
{{familytree/end}}

==Portrayal in adaptations==
{{Gallery
|title=Thranduil in adaptations
|height=150
|width=250
|lines=2
|File:The Hobbit (1977 film) - Thranduil.jpg|The "Elvenking" in [[The Hobbit (1977 film)|''The Hobbit'' (1977 film)]]
|File:The Hobbit (2003 video game) - Thranduil.jpg|Thranduil in [[The Hobbit (2003 video game)|''The Hobbit'' (2003 video game)]]
|File:The Lord of the Rings - The Battle for Middle-earth II - Thranduil.jpg|Thranduil in ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth II]]''
|File:The Hobbit - The Desolation of Smaug - Thranduil.jpg|Thranduil in [[The Hobbit (film series)|''The Hobbit'' (film series)]]
|File:The Lord of the Rings Online - Thranduil.jpg|Thranduil in ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]''
}}
'''1968: [[The Hobbit (1968 radio series)|''The Hobbit'' (1968 radio series)]]:'''
:[[Leonard Fenton]] provided the voice of Thranduil. He provides him with a Germanic accent.

'''1977: [[The Hobbit (1977 film)|''The Hobbit'' (1977 film)]]:'''
:Thranduil is voiced by [[Otto Preminger]]. For some reason, in the movie, the [[Elves of Mirkwood]] are portrayed as squat and ugly, as opposed to the noble Elves of [[Rivendell]]. Like Fenton before him, Preminger's Thranduil speaks with a German accent.

'''2003: [[The Hobbit (2003 video game)|''The Hobbit'' (2003 video game)]]:'''
:Thranduil is referred to as "Elvenking Thranduil", using both his title from ''The Hobbit'' and his name from ''The Lord of the Rings'', to accommodate players who have only read ''The Hobbit''. Thranduil first appears in the level "Barrels Out of Bond", in which he can be overheard speaking about the [[White Council]] and their attack on [[Dol Guldur]]. He returns as a conversation partner in the last level, "The Clouds Burst", in which he and Gandalf ask the player, in the persona of Bilbo, to deliver a message to Bard. No voice actor is specified for this part.

'''2006: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth II]]'':'''
:Thranduil is a hero for the Elven faction. In the good campaign, he shows up after the [[Battle of Dale]], and participates in the Siege of [[Dol Guldur]].

'''2012: ''[[The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey]]'':'''
:Thranduil is played by [[Lee Pace]] in the ''Hobbit'' [[The Hobbit (film series)|film trilogy]].<ref name="PJCasting">{{webcite|author=[[Peter Jackson]]|articleurl=http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150239464391558|articlename=Casting news!|dated=30-April-2011|website=[http://www.facebook.com/ Facebook]|accessed=23-Dec-2011}}</ref> Thranduil is first seen in the prologue paying homage to King [[Thrór]] inside within the [[Lonely Mountain]], though leaves in a huff when the [[Dwarves]] refuse to give him a box of white jewels. He is next seen with an army outside of [[Lonely Mountain|Erebor]] riding an elk, seemingly ready to help during the [[Sack of Erebor]]. However, he decides not to help and turns away.

'''2013: ''[[The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug]]'':'''
:Mentioning his past, Thranduil is portrayed as a widower and also an isolationist king who isn't concerned with the evil that happens beyond his borders. He has generously raised [[Tauriel]] for the last 600 years, and also mentions that he has fought the "[[cold-drakes|serpents of the North]]".
:When [[Thorin]] is taken before Thranduil in the [[Elvenking's Halls]], he surmises that he and his [[Thorin and Company|Company]] are going to try to reclaim the [[Lonely Mountain]] from [[Smaug]] (unlike in the book, where he had no idea as to their purpose). He offers a deal to Thorin, saying he will let the Company go if they will pay him the white jewels he desires inside the Mountain. When the Dwarf refuses and chastises him for not offering aid to the [[Dwarves of Erebor|Dwarves]] the day of the Sack, the Elven-king reveals a large disfigurement on his face underneath his skin, mentioning his fighting against the 'great serpents of the North.'
:Later, an [[unseen|invisible]] Bilbo Baggins spies his discussion with Tauriel, having ordered her company of Elves to destroy the [[spiders]]'s nests, but not beyond the borders of the Woodland Realm, displaying his disregard for the outside world.
:He and Legolas interrogate [[Narzug]], a captured [[Orcs|Orc]] who claims that [[Sauron|"The One"]] is returning, and will unleash a powerful weapon (possibly Smaug). Despite his own promise to "set him free", he beheads the orc, and orders the kingdom to be completely sealed off from the outside world.

'''2014: ''[[The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies]]'':'''
:After learning of [[Smaug]]'s demise, Thranduil leads his Elven army to claim the white jewels from the Dwarves of Erebor, even by force. It is revealed that these jewels were meant for his wife, who had been taken to [[Gundabad]] and tortured by Orcs to death many years prior. When the army arrives in [[Dale]], he forges an allegiance with [[Bard]], also offering the [[Lake-town]] refugees food and supplies. When Gandalf arrives at Erebor to warn them of the impending attack by the approaching Orc army, the Elven-king refuses to listen. Thranduil's soldiers come to clashes with those of [[Dáin Ironfoot]] right before the Orcs arrive, leading to the [[Battle of Five Armies]]. Thranduil himself fights in the battle against the Orcs, but withdraws his forces when defence of Dale results in many Elven casualties. This leads to a confrontation between him and [[Tauriel]] before she and [[Legolas]] go to Thorin's aid at [[Ravenhill]]. The event causes a rift between Thranduil and his son, to the point where Legolas decides not to return to the kingdom. Thranduil then advises him to go and find the [[Rangers of the North|Ranger]] known as "[[Strider (Aragorn)|Strider]]" among the [[Dúnedain]]. The Elven-king also accepts Tauriel's love for [[Kíli]] when he finds her mourning over the Dwarf's death.

'''2017: ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]'':'''
:Thranduil's earliest appearances are during the War of the [[Last Alliance]]. He can be found during the [[Battle of Dagorlad]] and later is seen during the [[Siege of Barad-dûr]].

:In the present time, Thranduil is first encountered fighting in [[Mirkwood]] during the last days of the [[War of the Ring]]. He joins the forces of Lord [[Celeborn]] and Lady [[Galadriel]] and their combined host moves on [[Dol Guldur]] where Galadriel brings down the fortress. Afterwards he and Celeborn renamed the forest [[Eryn Lasgalen]] and divide it into three parts, giving the middle section to the [[Woodmen]]. Thranduil then returns to his halls in Felegoth where his son [[Legolas]] and the player join him after the [[One Ring]] is destroyed. Thranduil's people have to deal with an unexpected situation when most of spiders in Mirkwood, except for the very young or very old ones, suddenly depart the forest en masse, travelling south to answer the call of [[Shelob|their mother]]. In their place come the Wood-trolls from the north and Thranduil tasks the player with finding the source of the new threat and preventing it from reaching his borders.

==External links==
*[http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/09/15/79209-thranduil-the-fisher-king-and-oberon-why-it-matters/ Thranduil, The Fisher King and Oberon; Why It Matters] by Marthe
*[http://middle-earth.xenite.org/2013/09/27/was-the-elvenking-of-the-hobbit-supposed-to-be-thingol-greycloak/ Was the Elvenking of ''The Hobbit'' Supposed to be Thingol Greycloak?] by [[Michael Martinez]]

{{references|note}}
{{hobbitfilms}}
[[Category:Characters in The Hobbit]]
[[Category:Characters in The Lord of the Rings]]
[[Category:Characters in The Silmarillion]]
[[Category:Rulers of Middle-earth]]
[[Category:Second Age characters]]
[[Category:Third Age characters]]
[[Category:Silvan Elvish names]]
[[Category:Sindar]]
[[de:Thranduil]]
[[fr:encyclo/personnages/elfes/teleri/sindar/thranduil]]
[[fi:Thranduil]]

Woodland Realm

2020-11-16T00:05:17Z

75.118.149.152: /* Third Age */ clarified extent of Woodland Realm

{{kingdom
| image=[[File:Alan Lee - Gandalf's Farewell.jpg|250px]]
| name=Woodland Realm
| pronun=
| othernames=Northern Mirkwood<ref group="note">Though geographically "Northern Mirkwood" might refer to a wide tract of the [[Greenwood|Forest]], as a proper name it is always used as synonym for [[Thranduil]]'s Woodland Realm in the northeast near to the [[Long Lake]].
</ref><ref name="UT"/><ref name=council/>
| location=Various locations within [[Greenwood the Great]] (later called [[Mirkwood]]); by the end of the [[Third Age]], they had settled in the far northeast of the [[Greenwood the Great|Forest]]
| capital=The [[Elvenking's Halls]] from the early [[Third Age]]
| towns=
| regions=
| population=[[Elves of Mirkwood]]
| language=[[Silvan Elvish]], [[Sindarin]], [[Westron]]
| govern1=[[Oropher]]
| govern2=Later [[Thranduil]]
| govern3=
| currency=
| holiday=
| precededby=
| event1=Founded
| event1date={{SA|750}}<ref name=date/>
| event2=
| event2date=
| event3=
| event3date=
| event4=
| event4date=
| event5=
| event5date=
| followedby=
}}
The '''Woodland Realm'''<ref name="Ride">{{RK|Ride}}</ref> was the great kingdom of the [[Silvan Elves]] in [[Mirkwood]].

== History ==
=== Second Age ===
The Woodland Realm was established by [[Oropher]] in {{SA|750}}, a [[Sindar|Sindarin]] [[Iathrim|Elf of Doriath]], after the [[War of Wrath]].<ref name=date>{{PM|Second}}, p. 174</ref> Unlike most [[Sindar]], [[Oropher]] and his household declined the [[Valar]]'s offer to depart from [[Middle-earth]] for [[Valinor]]. Instead, he migrated eastward from [[Lindon]] and became the King of the [[Silvan Elves]] east of [[Anduin]].<ref name="Note 14"/> The few [[Sindar]] who had come with him were soon merged with the [[Silvan Elves]], adopting their customs and language and taking names of [[Silvan Elvish|Silvan form and style]].<ref name="Sindarin Princes"/> [[Oropher]] and his household wished to return to a simple existence natural to the [[Elves]] before they had been disturbed by the [[Valar]].<ref name="Sindarin Princes">{{UT|6b}}</ref>

Originally, [[Oropher]]'s realm encompassed the south of [[Greenwood]],<ref name="Sindarin Princes"/> with dwellings about the hill of [[Amon Lanc]].<ref name="Note 14"/> However, throughout the [[Second Age]], he and his people migrated north three times.<ref name="Note 14">{{UT|Gladden}}, note 14</ref> According to one tradition, the first movement was northward beyond the [[Gladden Fields]], due to [[Oropher]]'s desire to distance himself from the increasing encroachments of the [[Dwarves of Khazad-dûm]] and his resentment of the intrusions of [[Celeborn]] and [[Galadriel]] in [[Lothlórien]].<ref name="Sindarin Princes"/> However, his people did maintain constant intercourse with their [[Galadhrim|kin]] west of the [[Anduin]].<ref name="Sindarin Princes"/>

[[Oropher]] was also disturbed by the reports of [[Sauron]]'s rising power and by the end of the [[Second Age]], he dwelt in the western glens of the [[Mountains of Mirkwood|Emyn Duir]] and his numerous people lived and roamed in the woods and vales westward as far as [[Anduin]], north of the ancient [[Men-i-Naugrim|Dwarf-Road]].<ref name="Note 14"/>

In {{SA|3430}}, [[Oropher]] led the forces of the Woodland Realm against [[Sauron]] as part of the [[Last Alliance of Elves and Men]].<ref name="Sindarin Princes"/>

=== Third Age ===
[[File:Anke Eißmann - Thranduil.jpg|thumb|200px|[[Anke Eißmann]] - ''Thranduil''|left]]
[[Oropher]]'s son, [[Thranduil]], succeeded him as the lord of the Woodland Realm<ref name="Sindarin Princes"/> and ruled the Woodland Realm in peace for many years.

Around {{TA|1100}}, an evil entity known as the [[Necromancer]] (later identified as [[Sauron]]) had created a stronghold on [[Amon Lanc]] called [[Dol Guldur]].<ref name="TA">{{App|TA}}</ref> As the [[Shadow]] fell upon [[Greenwood the Great]], [[Thranduil]]'s realm retreated before it as it spread ever northward, until at last, Thranduil established his realm in the north-east of the forest and delved there a [[Elvenking's Halls|fortress and great halls underground]].<ref name="Sindarin Princes"/> His realm was also protected by the [[Enchanted River]]<ref>{{H|Queer}}</ref>, which could cause one to sleep and dream deeply, whilst the Elvenking's Halls served as the chief fortress of the realm.<ref name=Flies/>

Thranduil's realm is said to have extended into the woods surrounding the [[Lonely Mountain]] and growing along the west shores of the [[Long Lake]], before the coming of the [[Dwarves of Moria|Dwarves exiled from Moria]] and the invasion of the [[dragon]] [[Smaug]].<ref name="Sindarin Princes"/> The Woodland Realm did trade with the neighbouring realms of Erebor and [[Dale]], and imported wine from [[Dorwinion]] via the [[River Running]]. The former traffic came to an end upon with the destruction of Erebor by Smaug in {{TA|2770}}<ref name="TA"/> but again resumed after the [[Battle of Five Armies]].<ref>{{H|19}}</ref>

In {{TA|2941}},<ref name="TA"/> [[Thorin and Company|Thorin's band of Dwarves]] intruded in the Woodland Realm and were held prisoner in the [[Elvenking's Halls]].<ref name=Flies>{{H|Flies}}</ref> Upon hearing the death of Smaug, Thranduil immediately assembled the army of the Woodland Realm and marched towards [[Erebor]]. In the ensuing [[Battle of Five Armies]], many [[Wood-elves]] were slain <ref>{{H|Burst}}</ref> and many of the [[Orcs]] that survived wandered into the Woodland Realm were slain or lost in the trackless dark of Mirkwood.<ref>{{H|18}}</ref>
[[File:Capucine Mazille - The Battle of Five Armies.jpg|thumb|200px|[[Capucine Mazille]] - ''The Battle of Five Armies'']]
On [[20 June]] {{TA|3018|n}} a force of [[Orcs]] attacked the Woodland Realm (orchestrated by Sauron),<ref name="UT"/> the purpose of this raid being to provide a distraction and facilitate the escape of [[Gollum]]<ref name=great/> who had been entrusted to Thranduil's care by the [[Rangers of the North|Ranger]] [[Aragorn]].<ref name="UT">{{UT|Hunt}}</ref>

In the wake of this, Thranduil sent his son, [[Legolas]], to deliver news of [[Gollum]]'s escape to Aragorn and [[Elrond]] in [[Rivendell]]. Upon arriving, Legolas participated in the [[Council of Elrond]] as an ambassador of the Woodland Realm where the full details of Sauron's resurgence were revealed.<ref name=council>{{FR|II2}}</ref>

Meanwhile, on [[15 March]] {{TA|3019|n}}, Sauron's forces invaded the Woodland Realm in force and there was long [[battle under the trees]] and great ruin of fire; but in the end Thranduil had the victory. On the [[Elven New Year]] ([[6 April]]), he met [[Celeborn]], [[Lord of Lórien]], and the two agreed to rename the forest [[Eryn Lasgalen]]. Thranduil took the area from the northern eaves of the forest south to the [[Emyn Duir]] for the Woodland Realm.<ref name=great>{{App|Great}}</ref>

=== Later History ===
After the [[War of the Ring]], the [[Elves of Mirkwood|Silvan Elves of the Greenwood]], including those of the Woodland Realm, remained untroubled.<ref name=great/> Many folk of the realm removed south to [[Gondor]] to restore the beauty of the [[South-kingdom]], especially [[Minas Tirith]] and [[Ithilien]].<ref name=durin>{{App|Durin}}</ref><ref name="RK-MinasTirith">{{RK|V1}}</ref>

The eventual fate of the Woodland Realm is unknown.

==Portrayal in adaptations==
'''2018: ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]'':'''
:Thranduil's realm is called [[Eryn Lasgalen]] and is accessible after the fall of Dol Guldur. In addition to "Felegoth", the Halls of the Elvenking, there is the [[Raft-elves|Raft-elf]] settlement of "Loeglond" near the [[Long Lake]]; and the haunted ruins of "Caras Tilion", the former capital in the Mountains of Mirkwood. The quests in the area involve bringing stability to the realm so that trade may resume.

{{notes}}
{{references}}
[[Category:Elven realms]]
[[Category:Forests]]
[[Category:Rhovanion]]

East Lórien

2020-11-15T23:54:05Z

75.118.149.152: /* History */ corrected fate of realm

'''East Lórien''' was the name and the Eastern border of [[Lothlórien]] in the southern area of [[Eryn Lasgalen]] (former [[Mirkwood]]).

East Lórien consisted of the broad forest around the base of [[Amon Lanc]] south of the [[Narrows of the Forest|Narrows]], and on eastwards for some two hundred miles. The area to the north was populated by [[Beornings]] and [[Woodmen]].
==History==
During the [[Third Age]], the [[Necromancer]] built [[Dol Guldur]] on the hill of [[Amon Lanc]], and this part of the Forest was under his influence. During the [[War of the Ring]], Dol Guldur [[Fall of Dol Guldur|was torn down]] by the [[Elves of Lórien]] (who dwelt immediately to the west across the [[Anduin]]); and after a meeting with the Elveking [[Thranduil]] and the renaming of the cleansed Forest on [[Yestare]], [[Celeborn]] claimed the woods south of the [[Narrows]].

Celeborn ruled the realm into the [[Fourth Age]], though he did not remain there long. After a span of only "a few years," he retired to [[Rivendell]] to stay with his grandsons, the sons of Elrond. It is unknown if East Lórien continued as a realm after the departure of its founder, and if so, who may have succeeded him – if anyone. All that is known is that "in the Greenwood the [[Silvan Elves]] remained untroubled" for some time thereafter.<ref>{{App|Great}}</ref>

{{references}}

[[Category:Regions]]
[[Category:Rhovanion]]
[[Category:Elven realms]]

[[de:Ost-Lórien]]
[[fi:Itä-Lórien]]

Elmo

2020-11-13T17:13:29Z

75.118.149.152: expanded description of fraternal relationship

{{sindar infobox
| name=Elmo
| image=[[File:Irsanna - Elmo.jpg|250px]]
| caption="Elmo" by [[:Category:Images by Irsanna|Irsanna]]
| pronun=
| othernames=
| titles=
| position=
| location=[[Doriath]]
| affiliation=
| language=[[Doriathrin]] ([[Sindarin]] dialect)
| birth=
| birthlocation=
| rule=
| death=
| deathlocation=
| age=
| notablefor=
| house=
| parentage=
| siblings=[[Thingol]] & [[Olwë]]
| spouse=
| children=[[Galadhon]]
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=
| steed=
}}
'''Elmo''' was an [[Elf]] of the [[Nelyar]] born at [[Cuiviénen]]. He was the younger brother of [[Thingol|Elwë]] and [[Olwë]], the two leaders of the great host of the [[Teleri]]. The parentage of the three brothers is unknown. Elmo joined the Great Journey following his brothers and remained behind in Beleriand after Elwë was lost in [[Nan Elmoth]] and Olwë departed for [[Valinor]]. After Elwë returned as Elu Thingol, Elmo became one of the [[Sindar]] of [[Doriath]].<ref name=UTG>{{UT|Galadriel}}</ref>

Elmo is notable mainly for his descendants [[Celeborn]] and [[Nimloth of Doriath|Nimloth]], as no deeds are ascribed to him in the histories.<ref name=UTG /> It is possible that he was a leader of the [[Eglath]] in the time between the departure of Olwë and the return of Elwë.

== Genealogy ==
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | |,|-|-|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|.| | | |}}
{{familytree | | | MEL |y| ELW | | | | OLW | | ELM | | |MEL=[[Melian]]|ELW=[[Elwë]]|OLW=[[Olwë]]|ELM='''ELMO'''}}
{{familytree | | | | | |!| | | | | | | |!| | | |!| | | |}}
{{familytree | BER |y| LUT | | FAF |y| EAW | | GLD | | |BER=[[Beren]]|LUT=[[Lúthien]]|FAF=[[Finarfin]]|EAW=[[Eärwen]]|GLD=[[Galadhon]]}}
{{familytree | | | |!| | | | | | | |!| | | |,|-|^|-|.| |}}
{{familytree | | | |!| | | | | | | GAL |~| CEL | | GLT |GAL=[[Galadriel]]|CEL=[[Celeborn]]|GLT=[[Galathil]]}}
{{familytree | | | |!| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |!| |}}
{{familytree | | | DIO |~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~| NIM |DIO=[[Dior]]|NIM=[[Nimloth of Doriath|Nimloth]]}}
{{familytree/end}}

==Other versions of the legendarium==
Elmo was developed to explain the reference in ''[[The Silmarillion]]'' that [[Celeborn]] was a "kinsman of Thingol". One of the solutions was to establish Celeborn as the son of an unimportant brother of Thingol.

In other, later writings, Celeborn is made into a [[Falmari|Falmarin]] Elf and a grandson of Olwë, but this idea was not further developed or published, [[Celeborn#Controversy|possibly]] because it would cause Celeborn and Galadriel to become first cousins.

{{References}}
[[Category:First Age characters]]
[[Category:Sindar]]
[[Category:Quenya names]]
[[de:Elmo]]
[[fr:encyclo/personnages/elfes/teleri/falmari/elmo]]
[[fi:Elmo]]

Elmo

2020-11-13T16:52:36Z

75.118.149.152: /* Genealogy */ added the spouses of Elmo's noteworthy descendants to highlight the complex interrelations within the Telerin royal line

{{sindar infobox
| name=Elmo
| image=[[File:Irsanna - Elmo.jpg|250px]]
| caption="Elmo" by [[:Category:Images by Irsanna|Irsanna]]
| pronun=
| othernames=
| titles=
| position=
| location=[[Doriath]]
| affiliation=
| language=[[Doriathrin]] ([[Sindarin]] dialect)
| birth=
| birthlocation=
| rule=
| death=
| deathlocation=
| age=
| notablefor=
| house=
| parentage=
| siblings=[[Thingol]] & [[Olwë]]
| spouse=
| children=[[Galadhon]]
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=
| steed=
}}
'''Elmo''' was an [[Elf]] of the [[Nelyar]] born at [[Cuiviénen]]. He was the brother of [[Thingol|Elwë]] and [[Olwë]]. He remained behind when Elwë was lost, becoming one of the [[Sindar]] of [[Doriath]].<ref>{{UT|Galadriel}}</ref>

== Genealogy ==
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | |,|-|-|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|.| | | |}}
{{familytree | | | MEL |y| ELW | | | | OLW | | ELM | | |MEL=[[Melian]]|ELW=[[Elwë]]|OLW=[[Olwë]]|ELM='''ELMO'''}}
{{familytree | | | | | |!| | | | | | | |!| | | |!| | | |}}
{{familytree | BER |y| LUT | | FAF |y| EAW | | GLD | | |BER=[[Beren]]|LUT=[[Lúthien]]|FAF=[[Finarfin]]|EAW=[[Eärwen]]|GLD=[[Galadhon]]}}
{{familytree | | | |!| | | | | | | |!| | | |,|-|^|-|.| |}}
{{familytree | | | |!| | | | | | | GAL |~| CEL | | GLT |GAL=[[Galadriel]]|CEL=[[Celeborn]]|GLT=[[Galathil]]}}
{{familytree | | | |!| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |!| |}}
{{familytree | | | DIO |~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~| NIM |DIO=[[Dior]]|NIM=[[Nimloth of Doriath|Nimloth]]}}
{{familytree/end}}

==Other versions of the legendarium==
Elmo was developed to explain the reference in ''[[The Silmarillion]]'' that [[Celeborn]] was a "kinsman of Thingol". One of the solutions was to establish Celeborn as the son of an unimportant brother of Thingol.

In other, later writings, Celeborn is made into a [[Teleri]]n Elf, and a grandson of Olwë of [[Valinor]] instead, but this idea was not further developed or published, [[Celeborn#Controversy|possibly]] because it would cause Celeborn and Galadriel to become first cousins.

{{References}}
[[Category:First Age characters]]
[[Category:Sindar]]
[[Category:Quenya names]]
[[de:Elmo]]
[[fr:encyclo/personnages/elfes/teleri/falmari/elmo]]
[[fi:Elmo]]

User talk:75.118.149.152

2020-11-13T15:32:15Z

75.118.149.152: Replaced content with "Hey, I exist, you can leave me notes here. Yes you can. --~~~~ <hr />"

Hey, I exist, you can leave me notes here. Yes you can. --[[Special:Contributions/75.118.149.152|75.118.149.152]] 15:32, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

<hr />

The Atlas of Middle-earth

2020-11-12T05:38:44Z

75.118.149.152: /* Inconsistencies with earlier publications */ added errors from the Shire map

{{book
|title=The Atlas of Middle-Earth
|image=[[Image:The Atlas of Middle-earth.jpg|225px]]
|author=[[Karen Wynn Fonstad]]
|publisher=[[Houghton Mifflin]]
|date=[[29 May]] [[1981]] 1991 (revised edition)
|format=Paperback
|pages=210
|isbn=0618126996
}}

'''''The Atlas of Middle-earth''''' by [[Karen Wynn Fonstad]] is an atlas of various lands in [[Arda]]. It includes specific maps for ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' and ''[[The Hobbit]]'', for which it is intended as a reading companion.

==Contents==
The maps are treated as if they are of real landscapes, and are drawn according to the same rules that a real atlas is drawn: for each area the history of the land is taken into account, as well as geography on a larger scale and from there maps are drawn. Discussion includes suggestions as to the geology that could explain various formations, and points that are contradictory between multiple accounts.

City maps and floor plans for important buildings are also included; these are very often useful for making sense of the narratives, especially in ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''. As well, many battles such as [[Battles of Beleriand|those]] of [[Beleriand]], the [[Last Alliance]] and the [[War of the Ring]] are illustrated.

The book was published in [[1981]], but in [[1991]] a revised and updated version was published, which took information from ''[[The History of Middle-earth]]'' into account.

Fonstad also made a bold attempt to fill the gaps by using early conceptual work, mainly from ''[[The Book of Lost Tales Part One]]'' and the ''[[Ambarkanta]]'', combining the later known maps with the sketches used by Tolkien to provide "world maps" of [[Arda]] in its entirety and show [[Aman]], [[Beleriand]]'s position relative to [[Eriador]], and the place of [[Númenor]] in the Sea.

It was, however, published before the final three volumes of ''[[The History of Middle-earth]]'' were published, and thus some maps are based on [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]]'s early works, which were revised in later writings.

==Errors and criticism==
Despite being a thoroughly researched and well-respected reference book, the ''Atlas'' is known to contain several errors. However, a number of these were corrected in the revised edition, as noted below.

===Inconsistencies with earlier publications===
*Pages 4 and 5: The [[Grey Mountains (ancient)|Grey Mountains]] are shown in western [[Haradwaith]] south of the [[Great Gulf]] rather than in the [[Dark Land|Southlands]].<ref>{{SM|5b}} p. 239</ref>
*Page 13: Nogrod is shown north of Belegost, and both south of Mount Dolmed. ''[[The Silmarillion]]'' states that Nogrod was the more southerly of the two. [[The Shaping of Middle-earth]] states that Gabilgathol (Belegost) was "north of the great height of Mount Dolmed".
*Pages 39 and 88: On both pages, [[Drúwaith Iaur]] is shown north of the [[Ered Nimrais]] and south of the [[Angren]], and on page 39 extending east below the [[Adorn]]. In the Unfinished Tales map, Drúwaith Iaur is in the narrow area between the ocean and the southern Ered Nimrais, south of the mouth of the [[Angren]].<ref>{{UT|Index}}, "Map"</ref>
*Page 71: [[Hardbottle]] is shown in the Southfarthing rather than the Northfarthing.<ref name="Nomen">{{HM|N}}, p. 771</ref> Sackville, shown in the Southfarthing, is entirely invented.
*Page 89: [[Tarnost]] is shown as a city separate from [[Ethring]] though it may be a discarded name for the latter from early drafts.<ref>{{HM|AoL}}, p. 139</ref>
*Pages 92 and 93: [[Lithlad]] is shown in the south of [[Mordor]] rather than the northeast.
*Page 99: It is written that Bilbo gave the Arkenstone to the Elvenking and Bard on 22 November, then Dáin arrived in the early morning on 23 November. In ''The Hobbit'', [[Bilbo Baggins|Bilbo]] gave away the [[Arkenstone]] and then returned before midnight to wake up Bombur.<ref>{{H|Thief}}</ref> The next day, there was a new parley, it was revealed that the Elves and Men had the Arkenstone, and [[Thorin|Thorin]] expelled Bilbo from the [[Lonely Mountain]]. On the ''next'' morning, Dáin arrived.<ref name="Burst">{{H|Burst}}</ref> Fonstad's timeline has Dáin arrive in one day, while the text of ''The Hobbit'' has him arrive in two days. Either Dáin must have arrived on 24 November or Bilbo must have handed over the Arkenstone late on 21 November.
*Page 106: In ''The Hobbit'', the Dwarves saw a fire off in the woods. "The light was ahead of them and to the ''left'' of the path".<ref>{{H|Flies}}</ref> In Fonstad's map the dwarves left the path to the right. ''(Corrected in 2nd edition.)''
*Page 125: [[Combe]] is shown laying to the northwest of [[Staddle]] on the east side of the [[Bree-hill]], while in fact Combe should lie a little east of Staddle's location.<ref>{{FR|Sign}}</ref>

===Inconsistencies with later publications===
Both the first and second editions of the ''Atlas'' were written before the final three volumes of [[The History of Middle-earth]] were published, so at certain points it is contradicted by this later material. [[The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien]], which was published between the first and second editions of the ''Atlas'', is not taken into account in the revision.
*Page viii: [[Middle-earth]] dominates much of the northern hemisphere of [[Arda]] [[Changing of the World|made round]], with [[Forochel]] being high in the polar regions of the world and [[Umbar]] laying more than halfway southward between the northern pole and the [[Girdle of Arda|equator]].
**In [[Letter 294]], Tolkien confirms that [[Hobbiton]] is intended to be at the latitude of [[wikipedia:Oxford|Oxford]], with [[Minas Tirith]] 600 miles south being near to the latitude of [[wikipedia:Florence|Florence]]. With this information, it is clear that Middle-earth would be hardly as large as it appears on the ''Atlas'' map of a round Arda.
*Pages 4 and 5: The [[Sea of Helcar]] is seen to cover the area of future [[Mordor]], [[Khand]], and [[Rhûn]], and the [[Sea of Rhûn]] and [[Sea of Núrnen]] are shown as its remnants. The [[Orocarni]] in the East are approximately 800 to 1700 miles away from the [[Misty Mountains]].
**In ''[[The Peoples of Middle-earth]]'', there are references to the Sea of Rhûn existing in the [[First Age]], as well as the forest to its northeast and the hills to its southwest, indicating that it must be separate from the Sea of Helcar.
** ''The Peoples of Middle-earth'' also indicates that the distance between the Orocarni in the East and the Misty Mountains, specifically [[Gundabad]], was said to be as great or greater than that of Gundabad's distance to the [[Blue Mountains]] in the West.<ref>{{PM|Dwarves}}</ref>
*Pages 38 and 39: The western shores of [[Lindon]] and the [[Ethir Anduin]] are shown to exist in the [[Second Age]] of the world as they did in the [[Third Age]].
**''The Peoples of Middle-earth'' tells that during the [[Akallabêth|Downfall of Númenor]], Lindon lost much land to the advancing shores, while the eastern and southern portions of the [[Bay of Belfalas]] retreated back, putting the city of [[Pelargir]], which had been only a few miles from the coast, much farther inland.

===Internal inconsistencies===
*Pages 12 and 53: [[Dorthonion]] and [[Himring]] are located slightly above parallel J. However much later, [[Tol Fuin]] and [[Himling]] are seen much northern, above parallel I.
*Pages 38 and 41: [[Belegost]] has been moved 150 miles further south than previously shown to the middle of the southern [[Blue Mountains]].
*Pages 53, 76, and 80: On page 53, [[Rhosgobel]] is located near the border of [[Mirkwood]] well ''south'' of the [[Old Forest Road]], due east of [[Moria]]. On pages 76 and 80, Rhosgobel is still at the edge of the forest, but ''north'' of the Old Forest Road. One or the other location should have been used, not both.
**In ''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]'', it is stated that in December of [[TA|TA3019]], scouts "had climbed the pass at the source of the [[Gladden River]], and had come down into [[Rhovanion|Wilderland]] and over the [[Gladden Fields]] and so at length had reached the old home of [[Radagast]] at Rhosgobel", which supports the page 53 location.<ref>{{FR|II3}}</ref>
**In ''[[Unfinished Tales]]'', [[Christopher Tolkien]] states that Rhosgobel was "in the forest borders between the [[Carrock]] and the Old Forest Road".<ref>{{UT|Istari}}, Note 4</ref>

===Typographical errors===
*Page 2: [[Sea of Ringil]] is written as "Sea of Ringol".
*Page 7: [[Ezellohar]] is written as "Ezollahar". [[Ilmarin]] is written as "Ilmaren". [[Tol Eressëa|Eressëa]] is written as "Erresëa".
*Pages 6 and 38: [[Avallónë]] is written as "Avalónnë" and "Avalonnë" respectively.
*Pages 7 and 38: [[Alqualondë]] is written as "Aqualondë".
*Page 13: [[Gabilgathol]] is written as "Gabilgathod".
*Page 53: [[Caras Galadhon]] is written as "Caras Galadon".
*Page 71: [[Tuckborough]] is written as "Tuckburrow".
*Page 113: [[Bolg]] is written as "Borg".<ref name="Burst"/> ''(Corrected in 2nd edition.)''
*Page 135: [[Methedras]] is written as "Mathedras".
*Page 148: [[Gamling|Gamling the Old]] is written as "Gambling the Old".
*Page 189: [[Khuzdul]], the language of the [[Dwarves]], is labeled as "[[Khazâd]]".

===Use of early sources===
The usage of early concepts of the ''[[The Book of Lost Tales Part One]]'' alongside the established [[canon]] is questionable. In [[Aman]], Fonstad identified the early name "[[Hanstovánen]]" and also describes various dwellings of the [[Valar]] in [[Valinor]]. The same happens with [[Tol Eressëa]], whose Second Age map portrays [[Tavrobel]] and [[Kortirion]], and [[Gondolin]], where several landmarks are brought in from early works. Fonstad seems to have been aware of the potential issues with incorporating these places named in early writings, and explicitly points out the especially speculative nature of these maps of the Undying Lands in the accompanying text.

{{References}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:Atlas of Middle-earth, The}}
{{title|italics}}
[[Category:Map books]]
[[Category:Publications by title]]

Elvenking's Halls

2020-11-12T04:50:29Z

75.118.149.152: /* History */ diction

{{location infobox
| name=Elvenking's Halls
| image=[[File:Eric Faure-Brac - Thranduil's Halls.jpg|250px]]
| caption="Thranduil's Halls" by Eric Faure-Brac
| pronun=
| othernames=
| location=Northeastern [[Mirkwood]], on the banks of the [[Forest River]]
| type=City
| description=Stronghold of the [[Woodland Realm]]
| regions=
| towns=
| inhabitants=Mostly [[Silvan Elves]]<ref>{{UT|6b}}</ref>
| created=c. {{TA|1050}}
| destroyed=
| events=[[Quest for Erebor]], [[War of the Ring]]
}}
The '''Elvenking's Halls'''<ref name="Map">{{H|Wilderland}}</ref> were a cave system in northern [[Mirkwood]], in which King [[Thranduil]] and many of the [[Elves of Mirkwood]] lived during most of the [[Third Age]] and into the [[Fourth Age]].

==Description==
The halls were just inside the eastern border of Mirkwood on the north bank of the [[Forest River]], some miles upstream from [[Lake-town|Esgaroth]].<ref name="Map"/> The great cave had many passages and wide halls and was more wholesome than the goblin tunnels in the [[Misty Mountains]]. While most of the Elves lived in the woods the king's halls served as his palace and treasure vault and was also a fortress for the Elves in times of danger.<ref name="Flies">{{H|Flies}}</ref>

The entryway to the halls had huge stone doors<ref name="Flies"/> that were closed and secured by magic. The throne room for Thranduil was a great hall with pillars carved from the living rock. In lower levels were cells for prisoners and at the lowest part of the caves were the cellars of the king. These cellars were built over an underground stream so that empty barrels could be dropped into the water and floated out to the Forest River through a gate barred by a portcullis.<ref name="Barrels">{{H|Barrels}}</ref>

==History==
About {{TA|1050}} the [[Shadow]] began to fall upon [[Mirkwood|Greenwood]] (causing it to be called Mirkwood).<ref name="TA">{{App|TA}}</ref> In response, King Thranduil led his people to the north-east corner of the forest and delved there a fortress and series of great halls underground. He was inspired in this enterprise by [[Thingol]]'s halls of [[Menegroth]] in [[Doriath]] during the [[First Age]]. Like Thingol, Thranduil enlisted the aid of the [[Dwarves]] in making his stronghold, though the Elvenking's Halls of Mirkwood were less grand than that magnificent ancient cavern.<ref group="note">In ''[[The Two Towers]]'', [[Gimli]] asks Legolas, "Do you think those halls are fair, where your King dwells under the hill in Mirkwood, and Dwarves helped in their making long ago?" However, in the ''[[Unfinished Tales]]'', it is stated that Thranduil's halls "were not to be compared with [[Menegroth]]. He had not the arts nor wealth nor the aid of the Dwarves."</ref><ref>{{TT|Road}}</ref><ref>{{UT|6b}}</ref>
[[File:Henning Janssen - Blindfolded.jpg|thumb|left|[[Henning Janssen]] - ''Blindfolded'']]
In the autumn of {{TA|2941}}<ref name="TA"/> [[Thorin and Company]] were traversing Mirkwood and had run out of food. Spotting some woodland feasts the Company attempted to enter these gatherings but were thwarted each time. On the third attempt [[Thorin]] was captured and brought to Thranduil's halls where he was interrogated by the king. Angered by Thorin's refusal to answer his questions, Thranduil had Thorin locked in his innermost cell.<ref name="Flies"/>

Soon after, the twelve remaining dwarves (but not [[Bilbo Baggins]]) were taken by the Elves and brought to Thranduil's halls. They fared no better with the king and were also locked in the king's dungeon. Bilbo though, through the invisibility conferred by [[the One Ring|his ring]], roamed about the halls and discovered the cellars and the trap door leading to the underground stream. Through good luck Bilbo was able to obtain the keys to the dwarves' cells, free them, and pack them into empty barrels in the cellar. Workers then came and rolled the barrels through the trap door and thus the hobbit (riding one of the barrels) effected the escape of the Company from Thranduil's halls.<ref name="Barrels"/>

In {{TA|3017|n}}, [[Aragorn]] captured [[Gollum]] in the [[Dead Marshes]] and brought him to Thranduil's halls.<ref name="TA"/> As was told in the [[Council of Elrond]], Gollum was kept in prison but had been allowed to climb a tree, with guards to watch him.<ref>{{FR|II2}}</ref> About [[20 June]] {{TA|3018|n}}, [[Orcs]] attacked and Gollum disappeared.<ref name="Great">{{App|Great}}</ref>

During the [[War of the Ring]] Thranduil's realm had been invaded but on [[15 March]] {{TA|3019}} he was victorious over the forces of [[Dol Guldur]]. With the passing of [[Sauron]] Thranduil's domain was extended to the [[Mountains of Mirkwood]]<ref name="Great"/> but presumably he continued to live in the same halls.

==Portrayal in adaptations==
'''2013: [[The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug]]:'''
:The Elvenking's Halls is featured in the second ''[[The Hobbit (film series)|Hobbit]]'' film, ''[[The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug|The Desolation of Smaug]]''.
'''2018: ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]'':'''
:The Elvenking's Halls are known as "Felegoth" in-game, and is said to be situated beneath the hill of Cerin Dorn. It serves as a major stronghold in the North for adventurers who are questing, and those that serve King [[Thranduil]].

==See also==
*[[:Category:Images of the Elvenking's Halls|Images of the Elvenking's Halls]]

{{notes}}
{{references}}
{{companyroute}}
[[Category:Buildings]]
[[Category:Cities, towns and villages]]
[[Category:Elven realms]]
[[Category:Rhovanion]]

[[de:Thranduils Hallen]]
[[fi:Haltiakuninkaan salit]]
[[fr:galerie:faure-brac_eric:le_palais_de_thranduil]]

Elvenking's Halls

2020-11-12T04:49:40Z

75.118.149.152: /* History */ added quotation to note

{{location infobox
| name=Elvenking's Halls
| image=[[File:Eric Faure-Brac - Thranduil's Halls.jpg|250px]]
| caption="Thranduil's Halls" by Eric Faure-Brac
| pronun=
| othernames=
| location=Northeastern [[Mirkwood]], on the banks of the [[Forest River]]
| type=City
| description=Stronghold of the [[Woodland Realm]]
| regions=
| towns=
| inhabitants=Mostly [[Silvan Elves]]<ref>{{UT|6b}}</ref>
| created=c. {{TA|1050}}
| destroyed=
| events=[[Quest for Erebor]], [[War of the Ring]]
}}
The '''Elvenking's Halls'''<ref name="Map">{{H|Wilderland}}</ref> were a cave system in northern [[Mirkwood]], in which King [[Thranduil]] and many of the [[Elves of Mirkwood]] lived during most of the [[Third Age]] and into the [[Fourth Age]].

==Description==
The halls were just inside the eastern border of Mirkwood on the north bank of the [[Forest River]], some miles upstream from [[Lake-town|Esgaroth]].<ref name="Map"/> The great cave had many passages and wide halls and was more wholesome than the goblin tunnels in the [[Misty Mountains]]. While most of the Elves lived in the woods the king's halls served as his palace and treasure vault and was also a fortress for the Elves in times of danger.<ref name="Flies">{{H|Flies}}</ref>

The entryway to the halls had huge stone doors<ref name="Flies"/> that were closed and secured by magic. The throne room for Thranduil was a great hall with pillars carved from the living rock. In lower levels were cells for prisoners and at the lowest part of the caves were the cellars of the king. These cellars were built over an underground stream so that empty barrels could be dropped into the water and floated out to the Forest River through a gate barred by a portcullis.<ref name="Barrels">{{H|Barrels}}</ref>

==History==
About {{TA|1050}} the [[Shadow]] began to fall upon [[Mirkwood|Greenwood]] (causing it to be called Mirkwood).<ref name="TA">{{App|TA}}</ref> In response, King Thranduil led his people to the north-east corner of the forest and delved there a fortress and series of great halls underground. He was inspired in this enterprise by [[Thingol]]'s halls of [[Menegroth]] in [[Doriath]] during the [[First Age]]. Also like Thingol, he used the skill of the [[Dwarves]] to aid in making his stronghold, though the Elvenking's Halls of Mirkwood were less grand than that magnificent ancient cavern.<ref group="note">In ''[[The Two Towers]]'', [[Gimli]] asks Legolas, "Do you think those halls are fair, where your King dwells under the hill in Mirkwood, and Dwarves helped in their making long ago?" However, in the ''[[Unfinished Tales]]'', it is stated that Thranduil's halls "were not to be compared with [[Menegroth]]. He had not the arts nor wealth nor the aid of the Dwarves."</ref><ref>{{TT|Road}}</ref><ref>{{UT|6b}}</ref>
[[File:Henning Janssen - Blindfolded.jpg|thumb|left|[[Henning Janssen]] - ''Blindfolded'']]
In the autumn of {{TA|2941}}<ref name="TA"/> [[Thorin and Company]] were traversing Mirkwood and had run out of food. Spotting some woodland feasts the Company attempted to enter these gatherings but were thwarted each time. On the third attempt [[Thorin]] was captured and brought to Thranduil's halls where he was interrogated by the king. Angered by Thorin's refusal to answer his questions, Thranduil had Thorin locked in his innermost cell.<ref name="Flies"/>

Soon after, the twelve remaining dwarves (but not [[Bilbo Baggins]]) were taken by the Elves and brought to Thranduil's halls. They fared no better with the king and were also locked in the king's dungeon. Bilbo though, through the invisibility conferred by [[the One Ring|his ring]], roamed about the halls and discovered the cellars and the trap door leading to the underground stream. Through good luck Bilbo was able to obtain the keys to the dwarves' cells, free them, and pack them into empty barrels in the cellar. Workers then came and rolled the barrels through the trap door and thus the hobbit (riding one of the barrels) effected the escape of the Company from Thranduil's halls.<ref name="Barrels"/>

In {{TA|3017|n}}, [[Aragorn]] captured [[Gollum]] in the [[Dead Marshes]] and brought him to Thranduil's halls.<ref name="TA"/> As was told in the [[Council of Elrond]], Gollum was kept in prison but had been allowed to climb a tree, with guards to watch him.<ref>{{FR|II2}}</ref> About [[20 June]] {{TA|3018|n}}, [[Orcs]] attacked and Gollum disappeared.<ref name="Great">{{App|Great}}</ref>

During the [[War of the Ring]] Thranduil's realm had been invaded but on [[15 March]] {{TA|3019}} he was victorious over the forces of [[Dol Guldur]]. With the passing of [[Sauron]] Thranduil's domain was extended to the [[Mountains of Mirkwood]]<ref name="Great"/> but presumably he continued to live in the same halls.

==Portrayal in adaptations==
'''2013: [[The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug]]:'''
:The Elvenking's Halls is featured in the second ''[[The Hobbit (film series)|Hobbit]]'' film, ''[[The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug|The Desolation of Smaug]]''.
'''2018: ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]'':'''
:The Elvenking's Halls are known as "Felegoth" in-game, and is said to be situated beneath the hill of Cerin Dorn. It serves as a major stronghold in the North for adventurers who are questing, and those that serve King [[Thranduil]].

==See also==
*[[:Category:Images of the Elvenking's Halls|Images of the Elvenking's Halls]]

{{notes}}
{{references}}
{{companyroute}}
[[Category:Buildings]]
[[Category:Cities, towns and villages]]
[[Category:Elven realms]]
[[Category:Rhovanion]]

[[de:Thranduils Hallen]]
[[fi:Haltiakuninkaan salit]]
[[fr:galerie:faure-brac_eric:le_palais_de_thranduil]]

Elmo

2020-11-11T06:38:12Z

75.118.149.152: /* Genealogy */ disambiguated the Nimloths

{{sindar infobox
| name=Elmo
| image=[[File:Irsanna - Elmo.jpg|250px]]
| caption="Elmo" by [[:Category:Images by Irsanna|Irsanna]]
| pronun=
| othernames=
| titles=
| position=
| location=[[Doriath]]
| affiliation=
| language=[[Doriathrin]] ([[Sindarin]] dialect)
| birth=
| birthlocation=
| rule=
| death=
| deathlocation=
| age=
| notablefor=
| house=
| parentage=
| siblings=[[Thingol]] & [[Olwë]]
| spouse=
| children=[[Galadhon]]
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=
| steed=
}}
'''Elmo''' was an [[Elf]] of the [[Nelyar]] born at [[Cuiviénen]]. He was the brother of [[Thingol|Elwë]] and [[Olwë]]. He remained behind when Elwë was lost, becoming one of the [[Sindar]] of [[Doriath]].<ref>{{UT|Galadriel}}</ref>

== Genealogy ==
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | ELM | | | | | | |ELM='''ELMO'''}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | |!| | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | GLD | | | | | | |GLD=[[Galadhon]]}}
{{familytree | | | | | |,|-|^|-|.| | | | | |}}
{{familytree | GAL |~| CEL | | GLT | | | | |GAL=[[Galadriel]]|CEL=[[Celeborn]]|GLT=[[Galathil]]}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | |!| | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | NIM |~| DIO |NIM=[[Nimloth of Doriath|Nimloth]]|DIO=[[Dior]]}}

{{familytree/end}}

==Other versions of the legendarium==
Elmo was developed to explain the reference in ''[[The Silmarillion]]'' that [[Celeborn]] was a "kinsman of Thingol". One of the solutions was to establish Celeborn as the son of an unimportant brother of Thingol.

In other, later writings, Celeborn is made into a [[Teleri]]n Elf, and a grandson of Olwë of [[Valinor]] instead, but this idea was not further developed or published, [[Celeborn#Controversy|possibly]] because it would cause Celeborn and Galadriel to become first cousins.

{{References}}
[[Category:First Age characters]]
[[Category:Sindar]]
[[Category:Quenya names]]
[[de:Elmo]]
[[fr:encyclo/personnages/elfes/teleri/falmari/elmo]]
[[fi:Elmo]]

Elmo

2020-11-09T18:40:34Z

75.118.149.152: /* Genealogy */ added Nimloth daughter of Galathil

{{sindar infobox
| name=Elmo
| image=[[File:Irsanna - Elmo.jpg|250px]]
| caption="Elmo" by [[:Category:Images by Irsanna|Irsanna]]
| pronun=
| othernames=
| titles=
| position=
| location=[[Doriath]]
| affiliation=
| language=[[Doriathrin]] ([[Sindarin]] dialect)
| birth=
| birthlocation=
| rule=
| death=
| deathlocation=
| age=
| notablefor=
| house=
| parentage=
| siblings=[[Thingol]] & [[Olwë]]
| spouse=
| children=[[Galadhon]]
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=
| steed=
}}
'''Elmo''' was an [[Elf]] of the [[Nelyar]] born at [[Cuiviénen]]. He was the brother of [[Thingol|Elwë]] and [[Olwë]]. He remained behind when Elwë was lost, becoming one of the [[Sindar]] of [[Doriath]].<ref>{{UT|Galadriel}}</ref>

== Genealogy ==
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | ELM | | | | | | |ELM='''ELMO'''}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | |!| | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | GLD | | | | | | |GLD=[[Galadhon]]}}
{{familytree | | | | | |,|-|^|-|.| | | | | |}}
{{familytree | GAL |~| CEL | | GLT | | | | |GAL=[[Galadriel]]|CEL=[[Celeborn]]|GLT=[[Galathil]]}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | |!| | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | NIM |~| DIO |NIM=[[Nimloth]]|DIO=[[Dior]]}}

{{familytree/end}}

==Other versions of the legendarium==
Elmo was developed to explain the reference in ''[[The Silmarillion]]'' that [[Celeborn]] was a "kinsman of Thingol". One of the solutions was to establish Celeborn as the son of an unimportant brother of Thingol.

In other, later writings, Celeborn is made into a [[Teleri]]n Elf, and a grandson of Olwë of [[Valinor]] instead, but this idea was not further developed or published, [[Celeborn#Controversy|possibly]] because it would cause Celeborn and Galadriel to become first cousins.

{{References}}
[[Category:First Age characters]]
[[Category:Sindar]]
[[Category:Quenya names]]
[[de:Elmo]]
[[fr:encyclo/personnages/elfes/teleri/falmari/elmo]]
[[fi:Elmo]]

Sundering of the Elves

2020-11-09T18:30:13Z

75.118.149.152: /* Avari */ corrected composition of original Avari and citation

The [[Elves]] are a sundered people. They awoke at [[Cuiviénen]] on the continent of Middle-earth (see: [[Awakening of the Elves]]), where they were divided into three tribes: the [[Vanyar]], the [[Noldor]], and the [[Teleri]]. After some time, they were summoned by [[Oromë]] to live with the [[Valar]] in [[Aman]]. That summons and the [[Great Journey]] that followed split the Elves into two main groups (and many minor ones), which were never fully reunited.

The name '''[[Quendi]]''' refers to ''all'' elves.
[[Image:Elven Kindreds.jpg|center|750px|A chart of the Sundering of the Elves]] 

== Avari ==
The '''[[Avari]]''', the "Unwilling", are those who refused the summons of Oromë. Half of the original Avari were of the [[Tatyar]] and the other half were of the [[Nelyar]].<ref name=WJ3801>{{WJ|C}}, pp. 380-83</ref> Those of the Tatyar and Nelyar who embarked on the Great Journey would come to be known as the Noldor and Teleri respectively.

The Teleri were subject to multiple sunderings along the Great Journey, unlike the Vanyar and Noldor, which resulted in the offshoot tribes of the Nandor and Sindar. Collectively, the Avari, Nandor, and Sindar are called '''[[Moriquendi]]''' ("Elves of Darkness") in recognition of the fact that they did not see the light of the [[Two Trees]]. The largest part of the Moriquendi were Nelyarin, since half of the original Avari were so, as were all of the Nandor and Sindar.<ref>{{S|3}}</ref> While all of the Eldar departed Middle-earth by the early [[Fourth Age]], it appears that the Avari mostly stayed or died out: there is no account of their passage Westward.{{fact}}

== Eldar ==
The '''Eldar''' are those who accepted the summons. Their name, "People of the Stars", was given to them by Oromë in [[Primitive Quendian|their own language]]. Those of the Lindar who undertook the Great Journey were called the [[Teleri]].
* Those of the Teleri who refused to cross the [[Misty Mountains]], and stayed in the valley of the [[Anduin|Anduin River]], are called the '''[[Nandor]]''' ("Valley People").
** Those of the Nandor who left the Anduin under the leadership of [[Denethor of the Nandor|Denethor]] and came to Beleriand are called the '''Laiquendi''' ("[[Green-elves]]").
** The other Nandor became known as the '''[[Silvan Elves]]''', living in the forests of [[Rhovanion|Wilderland]]. They were joined there by some of the Avari.
* Those of the Teleri who reached [[Beleriand]] by the [[Belegaer|Great Sea]] but did not make the crossing to Aman were called the '''[[Sindar]]''' ("Grey-elves").
** Many of the Teleri chose to remain behind in order to look for their lord [[Thingol]], who disappeared near the end of the journey. These were known as the '''Eglath''' ("Forsaken"), because they were left behind when their kindred crossed the Sea.
** Those of the Teleri who came to the shores of the Great Sea but decided to stay there or, like [[Círdan|Nowë]], intended to cross to Aman but arrived too late to board the [[Tol Eressëa|island ferry]], are called the '''[[Falas|Falathrim]]''' ("People of the Shore").
* The Teleri under the lordship of [[Olwë]] who made the crossing across Belegaer to Aman are known as the [[Falmari]] ("Wave-folk").
* The Vanyar, the Noldor, and the Falmari are called the '''[[Calaquendi]]''' ("Elves of the Light") because they saw the Two Trees.
** Most of the Noldor returned with [[Fëanor]] to Middle-earth, and at least some of these remained there through the [[Third Age]]. These became known as the '''[[Exile of the Noldor|Exiles]]'''.
** Those Noldor that remained behind or returned under [[Finarfin]] became known as the '''[[Aulendur]]''' ("Servants of [[Aulë]]").

{{elves}}
[[category:Events]]
{{references}}

Sundering of the Elves

2020-11-09T17:51:30Z

75.118.149.152: /* Eldar */ added Falmari and clarified origins of Falathrim

The [[Elves]] are a sundered people. They awoke at [[Cuiviénen]] on the continent of Middle-earth (see: [[Awakening of the Elves]]), where they were divided into three tribes: the [[Vanyar]], the [[Noldor]], and the [[Teleri]]. After some time, they were summoned by [[Oromë]] to live with the [[Valar]] in [[Aman]]. That summons and the [[Great Journey]] that followed split the Elves into two main groups (and many minor ones), which were never fully reunited.

The name '''[[Quendi]]''' refers to ''all'' elves.
[[Image:Elven Kindreds.jpg|center|750px|A chart of the Sundering of the Elves]] 

== Avari ==
The '''[[Avari]]''', the "Unwilling", are those who refused the summons of Oromë. Most of the Avari came from the largest tribe, the Teleri. {{fact}} A few of the Noldor remained as well, but were no longer called by that tribal name. Together with the Nandor and the Sindar, they are called the '''[[Moriquendi]]''' ("Elves of Darkness") in recognition of the fact that they did not see the light of the [[Two Trees]]. The largest part of this group were Teleri, since that was the most numerous people from the beginning, and they suffered more than one sundering on their voyage to the western shore. <ref>{{S|3}}</ref> While all of the Eldar departed Middle-earth by the early [[Fourth Age]], it appears that the Avari mostly stayed or died out: there is no account of their passage Westward. {{fact}}

== Eldar ==
The '''Eldar''' are those who accepted the summons. Their name, "People of the Stars", was given to them by Oromë in [[Primitive Quendian|their own language]]. Those of the Lindar who undertook the Great Journey were called the [[Teleri]].
* Those of the Teleri who refused to cross the [[Misty Mountains]], and stayed in the valley of the [[Anduin|Anduin River]], are called the '''[[Nandor]]''' ("Valley People").
** Those of the Nandor who left the Anduin under the leadership of [[Denethor of the Nandor|Denethor]] and came to Beleriand are called the '''Laiquendi''' ("[[Green-elves]]").
** The other Nandor became known as the '''[[Silvan Elves]]''', living in the forests of [[Rhovanion|Wilderland]]. They were joined there by some of the Avari.
* Those of the Teleri who reached [[Beleriand]] by the [[Belegaer|Great Sea]] but did not make the crossing to Aman were called the '''[[Sindar]]''' ("Grey-elves").
** Many of the Teleri chose to remain behind in order to look for their lord [[Thingol]], who disappeared near the end of the journey. These were known as the '''Eglath''' ("Forsaken"), because they were left behind when their kindred crossed the Sea.
** Those of the Teleri who came to the shores of the Great Sea but decided to stay there or, like [[Círdan|Nowë]], intended to cross to Aman but arrived too late to board the [[Tol Eressëa|island ferry]], are called the '''[[Falas|Falathrim]]''' ("People of the Shore").
* The Teleri under the lordship of [[Olwë]] who made the crossing across Belegaer to Aman are known as the [[Falmari]] ("Wave-folk").
* The Vanyar, the Noldor, and the Falmari are called the '''[[Calaquendi]]''' ("Elves of the Light") because they saw the Two Trees.
** Most of the Noldor returned with [[Fëanor]] to Middle-earth, and at least some of these remained there through the [[Third Age]]. These became known as the '''[[Exile of the Noldor|Exiles]]'''.
** Those Noldor that remained behind or returned under [[Finarfin]] became known as the '''[[Aulendur]]''' ("Servants of [[Aulë]]").

{{elves}}
[[category:Events]]
{{references}}

Talk:Arwen

2020-11-09T16:24:44Z

75.118.149.152: /* Notes on genealogy */

===Portrayal in Adaptations===
The point is made in here that Arwen turns back for Rivendell after seeing a vision of her future child, but that this is unlikely to have been a major surprise to her. I always took this as a reference to the idea that elves had fewer children than humans, so it was not automatic that Arwen should bear a child at all in her lifetime. I know that LOTR and Silmarillion mention the relative fertility somewhere, can't remember where right now!

:See the following quote:

{{quote|Also the Eldar say that in the begetting, and still more in the bearing of children, greater share and strength of their being, in mind and in body, goes forth than in the making of mortal children. For these reasons it came to pass that the Eldar brought forth few children; and also that their time of generation was in their youth or earlier life, unless strange and hard fates befell them. But at whatever age they married, their children were born within a short space of years after their wedding. . .|[[Morgoth's Ring]]|}}

===General Griping===
My problem with Arwen's role in the movie was not that she replaced Glorfindel, which was a perfectly reasonable thing to do, but that she stole screentime from other characters who were more important to the story. Instead of Frodo making a brave-but-futile stand against the Black Riders at the Ford of Bruinen, he just becomes baggage for Arwen. Her dream-sequence appearance in ''The Two Towers'' is completely contrived, and the time could have been better spent developing the Ents or including the final confrontation with Saruman. Her scenes in ''The Return of the King'' were not '''as''' bad, but her best role would have been delivering Anduril instead of the contrived "Arwen will die if the ring isn't destroyed" plot thread. --[[User:Ted C|Ted C]] 15:10, 6 November 2006 (EST)

:Be glad she didn't go to Helm's Deep as was originally planned! But I agree with you on most of your points. It would have been, in my opinion, good if there were scenes of her weaving the banner of Elendil, and then the triumphant unfurling of it. The significance of this event was either overlooked or rejected by PJ. Then again, perhaps it would be considered too "anti-feminist" for this modern generation. . . --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 17:53, 6 November 2006 (EST)

Indeed, she could have defied Elrond by having the sword reforged herself and taking it to Aragorn, which would have tied her into the story much more neatly. Of course, that would create the problem of her and Eowyn having a chance to meet, but I'm not sure that would work so badly, as it would handily explain Eowyn's reckless desire to go get killed in battle. --[[User:Ted C|Ted C]] 11:17, 7 November 2006 (EST)

:This would be at the further expense of Elrond's character. I disagree with the whole sword-comes-late idea anyway, though it is not as big a change as some others. As I said, I think if PJ had stuck to the book (and the Appendixes) he would have had plenty of material. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 12:45, 7 November 2006 (EST)

::Do people really accuse such books as LotR as sexist for lack of female characters? I've heard of the ridiculous charges of racism (because of the violation of political correctness), but does this charge of sexism really happen? --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 07:56, 16 November 2006 (EST)

:::I certainly don't hear charges of sexism aimed at Tolkien. He was actually quite liberal for someone of his generation. I haven't heard such charges aimed at PJ, either, but of course he pushed Arwen and Galadriel into the story in every film, which would probably deflect that sort of criticism. --[[User:Ted C|Ted C]] 10:23, 16 November 2006 (EST)

:::Really, the lack of female characters, not only in LotR but in just about all of Tolkien's writings, is rather noticeable. They aren't generally treated in a sexist fashion when they are represented (just look at Éowyn and Haleth! Especially in the 1950's, such female characters were rare), but often they're just nearly absent from the stories. Now, this probably has something to do with Tolkien's "historical" feel; mentions of women in our own histories are sadly few. —[[User:Tar-Telperien|Tar-Telperien]] 15:28, 16 November 2006 (EST)
::::Lack of ''named'' female characters, rather. [[User:Rog|Rog]] 16:07, 20 November 2006 (EST)

::::[[User:Tar-Telperien|Tar-Telperien]] wrote: ''Now, this probably has something to do with Tolkien's "historical" feel;'' IIRC, Tolkien wrote somewhere that, as a man, he didn't feel qualified to write about women, or something along those lines. --[[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 17:26, 20 November 2006 (EST)

:::::That's interesting. I'd very much like to see the original statement. I'm not surprised he might have felt that way, didn't his mother die at a very young age? But I'm usually not displeased with how he portrays the female characters he does put in the stories. (Obviously I dislike some of them, but I dislike plenty of the male characters too.) I suppose I'm satisfied because plenty of the women in the histories are strong characters and (like me) in touch with their masculine sides (Éowyn and Haleth again). I really like that he didn't show ''all'' his characters as conforming to gender roles. That'd just be too boring for me. —[[User:Tar-Telperien|Tar-Telperien]] 17:40, 20 November 2006 (EST)

== Removal of 'Evenstar' from title ==

Since we, at this point in time, have taken the route of separate pages for each name, epithet and translation, i think it is confusing to include in the title an epithet which already has a separate page- namely <nowiki>[[Evenstar]]</nowiki>. For these purposes i would therefore reccomend dropping the epithet from the page title. [[User:Dr Death|Dr Death]] 08:29, 7 July 2007 (EDT)

:I agree. I had wondered why it was included in the title in the first place, but didn't think it was a big enough deal to bring up at the time, and forgot about it. I suggest a move to ''[[Arwen]]''. Personally, I think ''[[Arwen|Arwen Undómiel]]'' is better than ''Arwen Evenstar'', so I'm fine with that as well. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 09:33, 7 July 2007 (EDT)

==Image==
Can anyone else not see the current infobox image? If so, which image would be recommended as a replacement? We don't have the best collection of Arwen images. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 13:27, 27 January 2008 (EST)

:I do see it, no problemo! ~ [[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 13:31, 27 January 2008 (EST)

:Looks fine to me, although if you can't see it maybe there are others who can't in which case a change might be beneficial. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 13:43, 27 January 2008 (EST)

I think the top profile image is a bit inappropriate. Of course I don't want to rant on the talented artist's work, but I think a hasty and sketchy depiction of the most beautiful being on Middle-earth would deserve a better (and colored) illustration for the infobox. For this reason I put Howe's picture in the infobox and I hope you agree [[User:Sage|Sage]] 09:27, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

:I, for one, agree. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 09:53, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

==Etymology==
Me ranting about languages again. "and shares the -miel evening / nighttime suffix." Okay, here goes: ''Tindomë'' refers to the twilight of dawn. The second element is probably ''-iel'', "daughter". As for Undómiel... ''Undómë'' refers to the evening twilight, with a second element ''[[elen|el]]'' "star", thus translating Evenstar. The /-i-/ is a relic; the ending /-ë/ comes from a [[Common Eldarin]] ending /-i/, which is preserved in compounds. -- [[User:Ederchil|Ederchil]] 03:51, 7 February 2008 (EST)

== House of... categories ==

Arwen is a Third Age character and it seems to me that by the Second and Third Ages, the Houses of Finwe, Olwe et al. did not exist as political entities. Ancestry does not equal membership. It's like saying that Tolkien is Indo-European or that Nathaniel Lees is Polynesian. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 13:42, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

:I agree. I think our "Houses of..." categories are over-used and abused in general. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 14:38, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
::+1 --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 14:47, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

== Reaction to Jackson's portrayal ==

I think that a large part from this category is rather unnecessary. For instance, the accusations of Tolkien being sexist are rather irrelevant to the article. There could be a separate article similar to "Racism in Tolkien's Work" that contains criticism on that matter. The lack of female characters could still be mentioned as the reason behind the expansion of Arwen's character and the reaction by fans but nothing more. {{unsigned|Sandy}}

:I'm okay with removing it. It's mostly opinion. --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 15:26, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

::+1 to deleting entire section. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 16:37, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

:::In the reference part it is stated that "References are the cornerstone of any serious encyclopedia. Though much of our old content remains without references, Tolkien Gateway wishes to properly credit its facts. This way, fanon and overinterpretation can be properly identified as such, and omitted. " This part as I said before is rather irrelevant and I think it falls under this category. It has no sources apart from the irrelevant Laws and Customs of the Eldar and it is an overinterpretation of Arwen's character portrayal. After two admins agreed deleting it I deleted it and edited some part of "Portrayal in Adaptations" to make it a bit more objective. My changes were undone and I think that it's up to the admins to decide to keep the overlong and unnecessary part or not.--[[User:Sandy|Sandy]] 13:04, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

::::Another editor undid your edit, but Ederchil restored it. As you can see on the page, your edits stand. :) --{{User:Mith/sig}} 09:23, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

== Notes on genealogy ==

Mostly a note to self in case it comes up again. All counts of generations include both named endpoints:
*Elros to Elendil = 24 generations
**Elros to Silmariën = 5 g.
**Valandil to Elendil = 19 g.
*Isildur to Arvedui = 24 g.
**Isildur to Eärendur = 9 g.
**Amlaith to Arvedui = 15 g.
*Anárion to Fíriel = 29 g.
**There were more than 28 Kings of Gondor between Anárion and Ondoher, but the Southern throne did not pass uninterruptedly from father to son as it did in the North. Not all ancestors of Fíriel were Kings of Gondor nor vice versa.
*Aranarth to Aragorn II = 16 g. or >5 g.
**Aranarth to Arathorn II to Aragorn II = 16 g.
**Aranarth to Gilraen to Aragorn II = >5 g.
***Aranarth → unnamed younger sibling of Arahael → (any number of generations, theoretically including zero) → Dírhael → Gilraen → Aragorn II

Thus:
*Elros to Elendil to Anárion to Fíriel to Arathorn II to Aragorn II = 24 + 29 + 16 = 69 generations
*Elros to Elendil to Isildur to Arvedui to Arathorn II to Aragorn II = 24 + 24 + 16 = 64 g.
*Elros to Elendil to Anárion to Fíriel to Gilraen to Aragorn II = 24 + 29 + >5 = >58 g.
*Elros to Elendil to Isildur to Arvedui to Gilraen to Aragorn II = 24 + 24 + >5 = >53 g.
[[Special:Contributions/75.118.149.152|75.118.149.152]] 04:46, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

:The dissertation you added is out of place. This article is about Arwen. Please, move it to [[Aragorn]] and simply it a little, it is kinda cumbersome. --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 10:06, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

::It doesn't fit in [[Aragorn]] either IMHO. If it deserves a place, it should be on [[Peredhil]] or [[House of Telcontar]]. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 12:09, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

:::I am for moving it to the [[House of Telcontar]] page, because Aragorn and bis wife Arwen are Part of it and because Aragorn is not a Peredhil in the narrow sense. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhorahil]] 12:23, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

::::Considering that the purpose of this "dissertation" (as you so generously call it :) ) is to answer the question "how are Arwen and Aragorn related," the natural place for it seems to me to be [[Arwen]], [[Aragorn]], or [[House of Telcontar]]. I concur with Akhorahil that it does not belong in [[Peredhil]], as it has nothing to do with the Half-Elven ''per se''. I feel that [[Arwen]] is an appropriate place for information about Arwen's relationship to Aragorn, considering the article already had the "very distant cousins" note before I came along. Nonetheless, I don't especially mind where it ends up, as long as:
::::A) it's not deleted outright, as it's a [https://www.google.com/search?q=how+are+aragorn+and+arwen+related fairly common] question that deserves a thorough and complete answer which is difficult to find elsewhere, and
::::B) assuming consensus is that [[Arwen]] is the wrong place for information about Arwen's relationship to her husband, the text is linked to from the statement in [[Arwen]] that "Arwen was a '''very distant''' cousin of Aragorn." --[[Special:Contributions/75.118.149.152|75.118.149.152]] 16:24, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

::Unfortunately, I can't "simply it a little" because the matter is unavoidably very complex. You can thank Tolkien for that, not me. ;) --[[Special:Contributions/75.118.149.152|75.118.149.152]] 16:24, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

:Agree with Lorenzo, there's too much trivia about Aragorn, the opening paragraph of the section is good enough. Though IMO it belongs to [[Half-elven]]. [[User:Gaetano|Gaetano]] 15:57, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Galathil

2020-11-09T15:29:52Z

75.118.149.152: /* Etymology */ typo

{{sindar infobox
| name=Galathil
| image=[[File:Jukka Raak - Galadhon and his sons, Celeborn and Galathil.jpg|250px]]
| caption="Galadhon and his sons, Celeborn and Galathil" by [[:Category:Images by Jukka Raak|Jukka Raak]]
| pronun=
| othernames=
| titles=
| position=
| location=[[Doriath]]
| affiliation=
| language=[[Doriathrin]] ([[Sindarin]] dialect)
| birth=
| birthlocation=
| rule=
| death=
| deathlocation=
| age=
| notablefor=
| house=A member of the royal house of [[Doriath]]
| parentage=[[Galadhon]]
| siblings=[[Celeborn]]
| spouse=
| children=[[Nimloth of Doriath|Nimloth]]
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=
| steed=
}}
'''Galathil''' was a grandson of King [[Thingol]]'s brother [[Elmo]], and himself the brother of [[Celeborn]], the [[Lord of Lórien]]. His daughter [[Nimloth of Doriath|Nimloth]] wedded [[Dior]], Thingol's Heir, and so Galathil was a distant ancestor of both [[Elrond]] and [[Aragorn]].<ref>{{UT|Galadriel}}</ref>

== Etymology ==
Galathil and his close kin shared names with the [[White Tree (disambiguation)|White Trees]].<ref name=UT6e/><ref name=PMV/>{{rp|147-8}}

The conception of this name was based on Tolkien's idea that Celeborn's name was first devised to mean 'Silver Tree', and his close kin all had 'tree-names'.<ref name=UT6e>{{UT|6e}}</ref> Although he later changed what he wanted Celeborn's name to mean, referring to 'silver' and 'tall' from the adjective ''ornā'' (uprising, tall) instead of 'silver' and tree' from the noun ''ornē'' (tree), he did not revise the name meanings of his close kin.<ref name=UT6e/>

Based on Tolkien's original version of the family's names, Galathil is a name that can be seen in the tree name ''Galathilion'', which was another name for [[Telperion]]. This was also the name of the White Tree of [[Tirion]], '[[Galathilion]] the Less', and its seedlings were ''Celeborn'' in [[Eressëa]] and ''Nimloth'' in [[Númenor]].<ref name=PMV>{{PM|V}}</ref>{{rp|147-8}} In ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'', Galathilion was the tree of Tol Eressëa, and [[Nimloth (tree)|Nimloth]] was its seedling.<ref>{{RK|Steward}}</ref><ref name=PMV/>{{rp|163-4}}

{{references}}
[[Category:First Age characters]]
[[Category:Sindar]]
[[Category:Sindarin names]]
[[de:Galathil]]
[[fi:Galathil]]

Talk:Arwen

2020-11-09T04:46:20Z

75.118.149.152: /* Notes on genealogy */ new section

Arwen

2020-11-09T04:16:06Z

75.118.149.152: added citations, fixed mistake in generations of the House of Anárion, expanded on Gilraen's descent from Eärendil

{{half-elf infobox
| name=Arwen
| image=[[File:John Howe - Arwen.jpg|250px]]
| caption="Arwen" by [[John Howe]]
| pronun=[[Sindarin|S]], {{IPA|[ˈarwen]}}
| othernames=''Undómiel'' ([[Quenya|Q]]: "Evenstar") ''Elerondiel'' ([[Quenya|Q]]) ''Elrenniel'' ([[Sindarin|S]])
| titles=Lady of Rivendell Queen of Elves and Men Queen of Gondor
| location=[[Rivendell]], [[Lothlórien]], [[Reunited Kingdom]]
| position=
| affiliation=
| language=Primarily [[Sindarin]]<ref name="Languages">{{App|Elves}}</ref>
| birth={{TA|241}}
| birthlocation=
| rule={{TA|3019}} - {{FoA|120}}
| death={{FoA|121}}
| deathlocation=[[Cerin Amroth]], [[Lothlórien]]
| age=2,901
| notablefor=
| house=Descended from the [[House of Hador]]
| heritage=[[Half-elven]] father, [[Elves|Elf]] mother
| parentage=[[Elrond]] and [[Celebrían]]
| siblings=[[Elladan]] and [[Elrohir]]
| spouse=[[Aragorn]]
| children=[[Eldarion]] and several daughters
| gender=Female
| height=
| hair=Dark<ref name="Many">{{FR|Meetings}}</ref>
| eyes=Grey<ref name="Many"/>
| clothing=Grey raiment with girdle of silver leaves;<ref name="Many"/> silver and blue mantle<ref name="Tale">{{App|A1v}}</ref>
| weapons=
| steed=
}}
{{quote|[[Frodo Baggins|Frodo]] saw her whom few [[mortals]] had yet seen; '''Arwen''', daughter of [[Elrond]], in whom it was said that the likeness of [[Lúthien]] had come on earth again; and she was called [[Undómiel]], for she was the Evenstar of her people.|''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]'', "[[Many Meetings]]"}}

'''Arwen Undómiel''', often called '''Arwen Evenstar''', was one of the [[half-elven]], married to [[Aragorn|Aragorn II]]. She was the daughter of [[Elrond]] and [[Celebrían]].<ref name="Tale"/>

She was considered to be the fairest of the [[Children of Ilúvatar]], resembling [[Lúthien]] of the [[First Age]] who would never again appear in [[Middle-earth]]. Her romance with [[Aragorn]] was reminiscent of that between the Man [[Beren]] and the Elf Lúthien. Like Lúthien, she rejected her [[Elves|Elven]] immortality to marry Aragorn and die with him.<ref name="Tale"/>

== History ==
[[File:Anna Lee - Evenstar.jpg|thumb|left|''Evenstar'' by [[Anna Lee]]]]

Arwen was born in {{TA|241}} and was the younger sister of [[Elladan]] and [[Elrohir]].<ref name=TA>{{App|TA}}</ref> From her mother she inherited the [[Elfstone]].<ref name="CG">{{UT|6}}</ref> As one of the half-elven, she shared the right of her father to choose her fate. She lived most of her life in [[Imladris]], or in [[Lothlórien]] with her grandparents.<ref name="Tale"/>

Her father fostered the sons of the [[Chieftains of the Dúnedain]], who were the exiled [[Heir of Isildur|Heirs of Isildur]].<ref>{{App|Eriador}}</ref> It was in {{TA|2952}} when she returned from Lothlórien to Rivendell when she met a young foster-son of her father, [[Aragorn]]. The young [[Dúnadan]] fell in love when he first saw her, though as he was still a youth, Arwen did not return his love.<ref name="Tale"/><ref name=TA/>

Elrond insisted that Arwen could not marry Aragorn until he became king of both [[Gondor]] and [[Arnor]]. Whether Arwen chose to marry him and become mortal, or remain with her kin as one of the Elves, she would be parted from either Elrond or Aragorn forever.<ref name="Tale"/>
[[File:Abe Papakhian - Lord of Rivendell.jpg|left|thumb|Arwen in Rivendell, art by [[:Category:Images by Abe Papakhian|Abe Papakhian]]]]
It was not until they met many years later in Lórien that Arwen returned Aragorn's love, and in {{TA|2980}} they plighted their troth on [[Cerin Amroth]]. Aragorn gave her the [[Ring of Barahir]].<ref name="Tale"/><ref name=TA/>

In the years leading up to the [[War of the Ring]], the [[Misty Mountains]] and all lands eastward became dangerous, and at the request of her father, Arwen returned to Imladris in {{TA|3009}}.<ref name=TA/>

Arwen was later reunited with Aragorn when he brought the [[Hobbits]] to [[Rivendell]] during the [[War of the Ring]]. She was present at a feast attended by [[Frodo Baggins|Frodo]]. Later that night, she and Aragorn spoke together.<ref name="Many">{{FR|II1}}</ref> When the Fellowship departed and [[Galadriel]] offered them [[Gifts of Galadriel|her gifts]], Arwen's Elfstone, given from Galadriel to Celebrían, and Celebrían to Arwen, was the gift for Aragorn. He would wear the Elfstone ever after.<ref name=Farewell>{{FR|Farewell}}</ref> This giving held the function of a wedding gift from the family of the bride to the groom, foretelling his marriage to Arwen.<ref>{{MR|P3II3}}</ref>

Arwen wove the [[Livery of Elendil]] for Aragorn from black cloth, decorating it with [[mithril]], gems and gold. She sent the banner with her brothers and a group of [[Rangers of the North]] to Aragorn before he took the [[Paths of the Dead]], thereby inspiring him to take the difficult path.<ref>{{RK|V2}}</ref> The banner was unfurled at the [[Battle of the Pelennor Fields]] to triumphantly announce the King's return.<ref>{{RK|V6}}</ref>
[[File:Janka Latečková - King and his Queen.jpg|thumb|right|''King and his Queen'' by Janka Latečková]]
After the defeat of [[Sauron]], Aragorn was crowned as [[King of the West]] and the new [[Reunited Kingdom]]; [[1 May|on that day]] Arwen and her father departed for [[Minas Tirith]]. On [[20 May]] they reached Lothlórien where they stayed for [[27 May|a week]] before Arwen resumed with her escort. On [[14 June]] she met her brothers and together they went to [[Edoras]] where they stayed [[16 June|two days]] before continuing to Gondor.<ref name="Chief">{{App|Chief}}</ref>
===Queen===
Arwen arrived to [[Minas Tirith]] on [[1 Lithe]] and wed Aragorn on [[Mid-Year's Day]],<ref name="Chief" /> being the third [[Unions of Elves and Men|union of Elves and Men]]. Arwen chose a fate different from her father's and did not sail to the [[Aman|West]]. Instead, she gifted Frodo, as the [[Ring-bearers|Ring-bearer]], passage in her stead, as she foresaw that his burden would not be lifted. She also gifted him a necklace with a white gem. <ref>{{RK|Partings}}</ref>

As Queen of Gondor, Arwen maintained a close connection with Gondor's allies, as did her husband. In {{FoA|15}} they visited the [[Hobbits]] outside [[the Shire]] and she took as a maid of honour [[Elanor Gardner]], daughter of [[Samwise Gamgee]].<ref>{{App|Later}}</ref> She was mother of one son, [[Eldarion]], and at least two unnamed daughters. After Aragorn's death, Arwen departed from Minas Tirith and returned to the abandoned Lothlórien. There she stayed for a time until she gave up her life in {{FoA|121}} at [[Cerin Amroth]], and was buried there.<ref name="Tale"/>

== Genealogy ==
Arwen was a very distant cousin of Aragorn. By their marriage, the long-sundered lines of the [[Half-elven]] were joined.<ref name="Numenor">{{App|A1i}}</ref> Their union also served to unite and preserve the bloodlines of the kings of the three kindreds of the High Elves ([[Ingwë]], [[Finwë]], and brothers [[Elwë]], [[Olwë]], and [[Elmo]]) as well as the only line with [[Maiar]]in blood through Arwen's great-great grandmother, [[Melian]].

Naming Arwen and Aragorn's specific familial relationship is difficult, both because they are separated by many generations and because there were at least two marriages between descendants of Elendil among Aragorn's direct ancestors. Thus, Aragorn II descended from Elendil along at least four different lines, owing to the marriage of [[Arvedui]] of Arnor to [[Fíriel]] of Gondor<ref name="South">{{App|South}}</ref> and [[Arathorn II]] to [[Gilraen]] of the northern Dúnedain.<ref name="Tale"/>

Through his father Arathorn II, Aragorn II was Arwen's first cousin sixty-two times removed through his forefather Arvedui and sixty-seven times removed through his foremother Fíriel. The difference owes to the differing number of generations between Elendil and Aranarth on the northern and southern sides of the bloodline; twenty-four<ref name="North">{{App|North}}</ref> generations of the [[House of Isildur]] and twenty-nine<ref name="South"/> generations of the [[House of Anárion]]. Both lines include Elendil, eighteen<ref>{{UT|Kings}}</ref> generations of the Lords of Andúnië, Silmariën, and four<ref name="Numenor"/> generations of the Kings of Númenor, as well as Aranarth and fifteen<ref name="North" /> succeeding generations of the Chieftains of the Dúnedain including Aragorn II himself.

The matter is less clear when determining Aragorn's descent from Eärendil through his mother Gilraen. Gilraen was the daughter of Dírhael, who descended from Aranarth through an unknown number of generations,<ref name="North"/> so it is impossible to precisely reckon the number of removals between Arwen and Aragorn along these lines. We only know that it must be greater than fifty-one as counted through Arvedui and greater than fifty-six as counted through Fíriel. We can establish these lower bounds because we know Arwen to have been Aranarth's first cousin forty-seven times removed through Arvedui and fifty-two times removed through Fíriel. Dírhael must have been of ''at least'' the second generation from Aranarth, being descended from a child of Aranarth younger than Arahael, meaning Aragorn II must have been of ''at least'' the fourth generation from Aranarth. Given the limited lifespans of Men, there must have been many more generations that bridged the eight centuries separating the birth of that unnamed child of Aranarth between TA 2013 and 2107<ref name="Elendil">{{PM|Elendil}}</ref> and that of Gilraen in 2907,<ref name=TA/> but Tolkien did not offer sufficient information by which to make an exact count.

It is possible that additional marriages between descendants of Elros further complicate the issue, but these are the only two directly attested by Tolkien and thus the existence of any others can be only a matter for speculation.

<div style="overflow-x: scroll; overflow-y: hidden; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA; padding: 3px; background: #EEEEEE;">
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree| FIN |y| EAW | | GLN | | TUO |y| IDR | | DIO |y| NIM | |FIN=[[Finarfin]]''b. {{YT|1230}}''|EAW=[[Eärwen]]''b. {{YT}}''|GLN=[[Galadhon]]''b. {{FA}}''|TUO=[[Tuor]]''b. {{FA|472}}''|IDR=[[Idril]]''b. {{YT}}''|DIO=[[Dior]]''{{FA|470}} - {{FA|506|n}}''|NIM=[[Nimloth of Doriath|Nimloth]]''d. {{FA|506}}''}}
{{familytree| | | |!| | | | | |!| | | | | |!| | | | | | | |!| | | | |}}
{{familytree| | | GAL |~|y|~| CEL | | | | EAR |~|~|y|~|~| ELW | | | |GAL=[[Galadriel]]''b. {{YT|1362}}''|CEL=[[Celeborn]]''b. {{FA}}''|EAR=[[Eärendil]]''b. {{FA|503}}''|ELW=[[Elwing]]''b. {{FA|503}}''}}
{{familytree| | | | | | |!| | | | | | | | | |,|-|-|^|-|.| | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree| | | | | | CLB |~|~|~|y|~|~|~| ELR | | | ELS | | | | | | |CLB=[[Celebrían]]''b. {{SA}}''|ELR=[[Elrond]]''b. {{FA|532}}''|ELS=[[Elros]]''{{FA|532}} - {{SA|442}}''}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | |,|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|.| | | | | |:| | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | ELL | | ELO | | ARW |~|y|~| ARA | | | | | | |ELL=[[Elladan]]''b. {{TA|130}}''|ELO=[[Elrohir]]''b. {{TA|130}}''|ARW='''ARWEN'''''{{TA|241}} - {{FoA|121}}''|ARA=[[Aragorn|Aragorn II]]''{{TA|2931}} - {{FoA|120}}''}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |,|-|^|-|.| | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | EDN | | DAU | | | | | | | |EDN=[[Eldarion]]''b. {{FoA}}''|DAU=''unknown daughters''}}
{{familytree/end}}
</div>

== Etymology and names==
{{Pronounce|Arwen Undomiel.mp3|Ardamir}}
'''''Arwen''''' means "Noble Maiden" in [[Sindarin]], from ''[[ara]]-'' ("noble") and ''[[gwenn]]'' ("maiden").<ref>{{HM|RC}}, p. 205</ref> Tolkien remarked that it also means "greatly blessed" in [[Welsh]].<ref>[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], "[[Letter to Mr Joukes|Letter to S.E.O. Joukes, 28 August 1967]]"</ref>

The [[Quenya]] form of her name is not entirely certain, but in his Quenya greeting, Aragorn refers to her again as "Arwen" (''Arwen vanimelda, namárië!'').<ref name=Farewell></ref> This suggests that the form ''Arwen'' itself is also coincidentally a valid, or at least understandable, Quenya calque (using ''[[ar]]-'', stem ''Arwend-'').

Her [[epessë]], '''''[[Undómiel]]''''', means "Evenstar", from ''[[Undómë]]'' ("evening twilight") and ''[[elen|el]]'' ("star").

She is also given the names ''Elrenniel'' and ''Elerondiel'', both meaning "Daughter of Elrond" in Sindarin and Quenya respectively.<ref>{{PE|Eldarin}}, p. 56</ref>

==Portrayal in adaptations==
{{Gallery
|title=Arwen in adaptations
|height=150
|width=250
|lines=2
|File:The Lord of the Rings (film series) - Arwen 3.jpg|Arwen at the Ford of Bruinen in ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring]]''
|File:The Lord of the Rings - The Fellowship of the Ring (video game) - Arwen.JPG|Arwen in [[The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring (video game)|''The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring'' (video game)]]
|File:The Lord of the Rings Online - Arwen.jpg|Arwen in ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]''
}}

'''1978: [[The Lord of the Rings (1978 film)|''The Lord of the Rings'' (1978 film)]]:'''
:Arwen does not appear.

'''1981: [[The Lord of the Rings (1981 radio series)|''The Lord of the Rings'' (1981 radio series)]]:'''
:Arwen is voiced by [[Sonia Fraser]].

'''2002: [[The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring (video game)|''The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring'' (video game)]]:'''
:Arwen appears in Rivendell after the [[Council of Elrond]]. She has a brief dialogue with Aragorn, and recites several lines from the [[The Riddle of Strider|Riddle of Strider]]. No voice actress is specified, but it is likely [[Kath Soucie]].

'''2001-03: [[The Lord of the Rings (film series)|''The Lord of the Rings'' (film series)]]:'''
:Arwen is played by [[Liv Tyler]]. Various additional scenes pertaining to Arwen are inserted, some of which deviate from the books and some of which seem inspired by ''[[The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen]]''.

:In the first film, she rescues [[Frodo Baggins]] from the [[Nazgûl|Black Riders]] at [[Bruinen]], thwarting them with a sudden flood, summoned by an incantation. In the book, it was [[Glorfindel]] who put Frodo on horseback and sent him alone to flee the Black Riders, and Elrond and [[Gandalf]] arranged the flood. Also, in the book, Frodo defends himself against the Black Riders, whereas in the movie Arwen defends him. Arwen wields the sword [[Hadhafang]],a non-canonical sword that belonged to her father.

:There are scene in which Aragorn has a dream about Arwen in which they kiss, a scene where Arwen has an argument with her father about leaving for [[Valinor]], and a scene where she actually departs for Valinor and then changes her mind and returns when she sees a vision of her future son, Eldarion.

:In addition, towards the end of the cinematic trilogy she apparently becomes sick with grief possibly over Aragorn's seemingly hopeless cause and his impending death. Elrond takes the reforged [[Narsil]], now [[Andúril]], to Aragorn at Dunharrow, and tells him that her fate has become bound with [[the One Ring]], and that she is dying. However, no explanation is ever given for these statements. Later, after the Ring is destroyed, Arwen is present at Aragorn's coronation without any signs of illness.

'''2007: ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]'':'''
:Arwen can be found in a gazebo overlooking the path from [[Rivendell]] into the Misty Mountains. Her roles in the game was initially small, and her only significant interaction with the player was the passing of Elessar's banner that she made for [[Aragorn]] and bid the player to deliver to [[Halbarad]]. After the downfall of [[Sauron]], her prominence increases as [[Elrond]] and his household travel to [[Minas Tirith]] for her wedding. On their way towards [[Lothlórien]] from the lands of the [[Beornings]], Arwen asks her father to visit the cave in which her mother [[Celebrian]] was tormented by [[orcs]] before being rescued. She later discusses that experience with Lady [[Galadriel]].

'''2011: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: War in the North]]'':'''
:Arwen resides in Rivendell, where players can discuss with her both historical and present subjects. While sporting the appearance of [[Liv Tyler]], her role is closer to the book than that in the movie: for example, she provides Halbarad and the Grey Company with the banner she had made for Aragorn, an event omitted from the movie adaptation. She is voiced by [[Courtenay Taylor]].

{{references}}
[[Category:Characters in The Lord of the Rings]]
[[Category:Fourth Age characters]]
[[Category:Half-elven]]
[[Category:House of Finarfin]]
[[Category:Gondorians]]
[[Category:Noldor]]
[[Category:Sindarin names]]
[[Category:Third Age characters]]
[[de:Arwen]]
[[fr:encyclo:personnages:elfes:semi-elfes:arwen]]
[[fi:Arwen]]

User talk:Mith/2020

2020-11-08T18:46:52Z

75.118.149.152: /* Arwen */

User talk:Mith/2020

2020-11-08T08:14:04Z

75.118.149.152:

Arwen

2020-11-08T08:10:56Z

75.118.149.152: Undo revision 321956 by Mith (talk) no reason States for revert. Please take it to page Talk

{{half-elf infobox
| name=Arwen
| image=[[File:John Howe - Arwen.jpg|250px]]
| caption="Arwen" by [[John Howe]]
| pronun=[[Sindarin|S]], {{IPA|[ˈarwen]}}
| othernames=''Undómiel'' ([[Quenya|Q]]: "Evenstar") ''Elerondiel'' ([[Quenya|Q]]) ''Elrenniel'' ([[Sindarin|S]])
| titles=Lady of Rivendell Queen of Elves and Men Queen of Gondor
| location=[[Rivendell]], [[Lothlórien]], [[Reunited Kingdom]]
| position=
| affiliation=
| language=Primarily [[Sindarin]]<ref name="Languages">{{App|Elves}}</ref>
| birth={{TA|241}}
| birthlocation=
| rule={{TA|3019}} - {{FoA|120}}
| death={{FoA|121}}
| deathlocation=[[Cerin Amroth]], [[Lothlórien]]
| age=2,901
| notablefor=
| house=Descended from the [[House of Hador]]
| heritage=[[Half-elven]] father, [[Elves|Elf]] mother
| parentage=[[Elrond]] and [[Celebrían]]
| siblings=[[Elladan]] and [[Elrohir]]
| spouse=[[Aragorn]]
| children=[[Eldarion]] and several daughters
| gender=Female
| height=
| hair=Dark<ref name="Many">{{FR|Meetings}}</ref>
| eyes=Grey<ref name="Many"/>
| clothing=Grey raiment with girdle of silver leaves;<ref name="Many"/> silver and blue mantle<ref name="Tale">{{App|A1v}}</ref>
| weapons=
| steed=
}}
{{quote|[[Frodo Baggins|Frodo]] saw her whom few [[mortals]] had yet seen; '''Arwen''', daughter of [[Elrond]], in whom it was said that the likeness of [[Lúthien]] had come on earth again; and she was called [[Undómiel]], for she was the Evenstar of her people.|''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]'', "[[Many Meetings]]"}}

'''Arwen Undómiel''', often called '''Arwen Evenstar''', was one of the [[half-elven]], married to [[Aragorn|Aragorn II]]. She was the daughter of [[Elrond]] and [[Celebrían]].<ref name="Tale"/>

She was considered to be the fairest of the [[Children of Ilúvatar]], resembling [[Lúthien]] of the [[First Age]] who would never again appear in [[Middle-earth]]. Her romance with [[Aragorn]] was reminiscent of that between the Man [[Beren]] and the Elf Lúthien. Like Lúthien, she rejected her [[Elves|Elven]] immortality to marry Aragorn and die with him.<ref name="Tale"/>

== History ==
[[File:Anna Lee - Evenstar.jpg|thumb|left|''Evenstar'' by [[Anna Lee]]]]

Arwen was born in {{TA|241}} and was the younger sister of [[Elladan]] and [[Elrohir]].<ref name=TA>{{App|TA}}</ref> From her mother she inherited the [[Elfstone]].<ref name="CG">{{UT|6}}</ref> As one of the half-elven, she shared the right of her father to choose her fate. She lived most of her life in [[Imladris]], or in [[Lothlórien]] with her grandparents.<ref name="Tale"/>

Her father fostered the sons of the [[Chieftains of the Dúnedain]], who were the exiled [[Heir of Isildur|Heirs of Isildur]].<ref>{{App|Eriador}}</ref> It was in {{TA|2952}} when she returned from Lothlórien to Rivendell when she met a young foster-son of her father, [[Aragorn]]. The young [[Dúnadan]] fell in love when he first saw her, though as he was still a youth, Arwen did not return his love.<ref name="Tale"/><ref name=TA/>

Elrond insisted that Arwen could not marry Aragorn until he became king of both [[Gondor]] and [[Arnor]]. Whether Arwen chose to marry him and become mortal, or remain with her kin as one of the Elves, she would be parted from either Elrond or Aragorn forever.<ref name="Tale"/>
[[File:Abe Papakhian - Lord of Rivendell.jpg|left|thumb|Arwen in Rivendell, art by [[:Category:Images by Abe Papakhian|Abe Papakhian]]]]
It was not until they met many years later in Lórien that Arwen returned Aragorn's love, and in {{TA|2980}} they plighted their troth on [[Cerin Amroth]]. Aragorn gave her the [[Ring of Barahir]].<ref name="Tale"/><ref name=TA/>

In the years leading up to the [[War of the Ring]], the [[Misty Mountains]] and all lands eastward became dangerous, and at the request of her father, Arwen returned to Imladris in {{TA|3009}}.<ref name=TA/>

Arwen was later reunited with Aragorn when he brought the [[Hobbits]] to [[Rivendell]] during the [[War of the Ring]]. She was present at a feast attended by [[Frodo Baggins|Frodo]]. Later that night, she and Aragorn spoke together.<ref name="Many">{{FR|II1}}</ref> When the Fellowship departed and [[Galadriel]] offered them [[Gifts of Galadriel|her gifts]], Arwen's Elfstone, given from Galadriel to Celebrían, and Celebrían to Arwen, was the gift for Aragorn. He would wear the Elfstone ever after.<ref name=Farewell>{{FR|Farewell}}</ref> This giving held the function of a wedding gift from the family of the bride to the groom, foretelling his marriage to Arwen.<ref>{{MR|P3II3}}</ref>

Arwen wove the [[Livery of Elendil]] for Aragorn from black cloth, decorating it with [[mithril]], gems and gold. She sent the banner with her brothers and a group of [[Rangers of the North]] to Aragorn before he took the [[Paths of the Dead]], thereby inspiring him to take the difficult path.<ref>{{RK|V2}}</ref> The banner was unfurled at the [[Battle of the Pelennor Fields]] to triumphantly announce the King's return.<ref>{{RK|V6}}</ref>
[[File:Janka Latečková - King and his Queen.jpg|thumb|right|''King and his Queen'' by Janka Latečková]]
After the defeat of [[Sauron]], Aragorn was crowned as [[King of the West]] and the new [[Reunited Kingdom]]; [[1 May|on that day]] Arwen and her father departed for [[Minas Tirith]]. On [[20 May]] they reached Lothlórien where they stayed for [[27 May|a week]] before Arwen resumed with her escort. On [[14 June]] she met her brothers and together they went to [[Edoras]] where they stayed [[16 June|two days]] before continuing to Gondor.<ref name=chief>{{app|chief}}</ref>
===Queen===
Arwen arrived to [[Minas Tirith]] on [[1 Lithe]] and wed Aragorn on [[Mid-Year's Day]],<ref name=chief/> being the third [[Unions of Elves and Men|union of Elves and Men]]. Arwen chose a fate different from her father's and did not sail to the [[Aman|West]]. Instead, she gifted Frodo, as the [[Ring-bearers|Ring-bearer]], passage in her stead, as she foresaw that his burden would not be lifted. She also gifted him a necklace with a white gem. <ref>{{RK|Partings}}</ref>

As Queen of Gondor, Arwen maintained a close connection with Gondor's allies, as did her husband. In {{FoA|15}} they visited the [[Hobbits]] outside [[the Shire]] and she took as a maid of honour [[Elanor Gardner]], daughter of [[Samwise Gamgee]].<ref>{{App|Later}}</ref> She was mother of one son, [[Eldarion]], and at least two unnamed daughters. After Aragorn's death, Arwen departed from Minas Tirith and returned to the abandoned Lothlórien. There she stayed for a time until she gave up her life in {{FoA|121}} at [[Cerin Amroth]], and was buried there.<ref name="Tale"/>

== Genealogy ==
Arwen was a very distant cousin of Aragorn. By their marriage, the long-sundered lines of the [[Half-elven]] were joined.<ref>{{App|A1}}</ref> Their union also served to unite and preserve the bloodlines of the Three Kings of the High Elves ([[Ingwë]], [[Finwë]], and brothers [[Olwë]] and [[Elwë]]) as well as the only line with [[Maiar]]in blood through Arwen's great-great grandmother, [[Melian]].

Aragorn claims descent from Eärendil along two different lines owing to the marriage of [[Arvedui]] of Arnor and [[Firiel]] of Gondor, so he is first cousin to Arwen at two different removals. On Arvedui's side, Aragorn is Arwen's first cousin sixty-two times removed, while on Firiel's side, Aragorn is Arwen's first cousin sixty-eight times removed. The difference owes to the differing number of generations between Elendil and Argeleb on the Arnor and Gondor sides of the bloodline (twenty-four and thirty respectively). Both lines include Elendil with all his ancestors as well as Argeleb with all his descendants.

<div style="overflow-x: scroll; overflow-y: hidden; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA; padding: 3px; background: #EEEEEE;">
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree| FIN |y| EAW | | GLN | | TUO |y| IDR | | DIO |y| NIM | |FIN=[[Finarfin]]''b. {{YT|1230}}''|EAW=[[Eärwen]]''b. {{YT}}''|GLN=[[Galadhon]]''b. {{FA}}''|TUO=[[Tuor]]''b. {{FA|472}}''|IDR=[[Idril]]''b. {{YT}}''|DIO=[[Dior]]''{{FA|470}} - {{FA|506|n}}''|NIM=[[Nimloth of Doriath|Nimloth]]''d. {{FA|506}}''}}
{{familytree| | | |!| | | | | |!| | | | | |!| | | | | | | |!| | | | |}}
{{familytree| | | GAL |~|y|~| CEL | | | | EAR |~|~|y|~|~| ELW | | | |GAL=[[Galadriel]]''b. {{YT|1362}}''|CEL=[[Celeborn]]''b. {{FA}}''|EAR=[[Eärendil]]''b. {{FA|503}}''|ELW=[[Elwing]]''b. {{FA|503}}''}}
{{familytree| | | | | | |!| | | | | | | | | |,|-|-|^|-|.| | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree| | | | | | CLB |~|~|~|y|~|~|~| ELR | | | ELS | | | | | | |CLB=[[Celebrían]]''b. {{SA}}''|ELR=[[Elrond]]''b. {{FA|532}}''|ELS=[[Elros]]''{{FA|532}} - {{SA|442}}''}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | |,|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|.| | | | | |:| | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | ELL | | ELO | | ARW |~|y|~| ARA | | | | | | |ELL=[[Elladan]]''b. {{TA|130}}''|ELO=[[Elrohir]]''b. {{TA|130}}''|ARW='''ARWEN'''''{{TA|241}} - {{FoA|121}}''|ARA=[[Aragorn|Aragorn II]]''{{TA|2931}} - {{FoA|120}}''}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |,|-|^|-|.| | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | EDN | | DAU | | | | | | | |EDN=[[Eldarion]]''b. {{FoA}}''|DAU=''unknown daughters''}}
{{familytree/end}}
</div>

== Etymology and names==
{{Pronounce|Arwen Undomiel.mp3|Ardamir}}
'''''Arwen''''' means "Noble Maiden" in [[Sindarin]], from ''[[ara]]-'' ("noble") and ''[[gwenn]]'' ("maiden").<ref>{{HM|RC}}, p. 205</ref> Tolkien remarked that it also means "greatly blessed" in [[Welsh]].<ref>[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], "[[Letter to Mr Joukes|Letter to S.E.O. Joukes, 28 August 1967]]"</ref>

The [[Quenya]] form of her name is not entirely certain, but in his Quenya greeting, Aragorn refers to her again as "Arwen" (''Arwen vanimelda, namárië!'').<ref name=Farewell></ref> This suggests that the form ''Arwen'' itself is also coincidentally a valid, or at least understandable, Quenya calque (using ''[[ar]]-'', stem ''Arwend-'').

Her [[epessë]], '''''[[Undómiel]]''''', means "Evenstar", from ''[[Undómë]]'' ("evening twilight") and ''[[elen|el]]'' ("star").

She is also given the names ''Elrenniel'' and ''Elerondiel'', both meaning "Daughter of Elrond" in Sindarin and Quenya respectively.<ref>{{PE|Eldarin}}, p. 56</ref>

==Portrayal in adaptations==
{{Gallery
|title=Arwen in adaptations
|height=150
|width=250
|lines=2
|File:The Lord of the Rings (film series) - Arwen 3.jpg|Arwen at the Ford of Bruinen in ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring]]''
|File:The Lord of the Rings - The Fellowship of the Ring (video game) - Arwen.JPG|Arwen in [[The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring (video game)|''The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring'' (video game)]]
|File:The Lord of the Rings Online - Arwen.jpg|Arwen in ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]''
}}

'''1978: [[The Lord of the Rings (1978 film)|''The Lord of the Rings'' (1978 film)]]:'''
:Arwen does not appear.

'''1981: [[The Lord of the Rings (1981 radio series)|''The Lord of the Rings'' (1981 radio series)]]:'''
:Arwen is voiced by [[Sonia Fraser]].

'''2002: [[The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring (video game)|''The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring'' (video game)]]:'''
:Arwen appears in Rivendell after the [[Council of Elrond]]. She has a brief dialogue with Aragorn, and recites several lines from the [[The Riddle of Strider|Riddle of Strider]]. No voice actress is specified, but it is likely [[Kath Soucie]].

'''2001-03: [[The Lord of the Rings (film series)|''The Lord of the Rings'' (film series)]]:'''
:Arwen is played by [[Liv Tyler]]. Various additional scenes pertaining to Arwen are inserted, some of which deviate from the books and some of which seem inspired by ''[[The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen]]''.

:In the first film, she rescues [[Frodo Baggins]] from the [[Nazgûl|Black Riders]] at [[Bruinen]], thwarting them with a sudden flood, summoned by an incantation. In the book, it was [[Glorfindel]] who put Frodo on horseback and sent him alone to flee the Black Riders, and Elrond and [[Gandalf]] arranged the flood. Also, in the book, Frodo defends himself against the Black Riders, whereas in the movie Arwen defends him. Arwen wields the sword [[Hadhafang]],a non-canonical sword that belonged to her father.

:There are scene in which Aragorn has a dream about Arwen in which they kiss, a scene where Arwen has an argument with her father about leaving for [[Valinor]], and a scene where she actually departs for Valinor and then changes her mind and returns when she sees a vision of her future son, Eldarion.

:In addition, towards the end of the cinematic trilogy she apparently becomes sick with grief possibly over Aragorn's seemingly hopeless cause and his impending death. Elrond takes the reforged [[Narsil]], now [[Andúril]], to Aragorn at Dunharrow, and tells him that her fate has become bound with [[the One Ring]], and that she is dying. However, no explanation is ever given for these statements. Later, after the Ring is destroyed, Arwen is present at Aragorn's coronation without any signs of illness.

'''2007: ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]'':'''
:Arwen can be found in a gazebo overlooking the path from [[Rivendell]] into the Misty Mountains. Her roles in the game was initially small, and her only significant interaction with the player was the passing of Elessar's banner that she made for [[Aragorn]] and bid the player to deliver to [[Halbarad]]. After the downfall of [[Sauron]], her prominence increases as [[Elrond]] and his household travel to [[Minas Tirith]] for her wedding. On their way towards [[Lothlórien]] from the lands of the [[Beornings]], Arwen asks her father to visit the cave in which her mother [[Celebrian]] was tormented by [[orcs]] before being rescued. She later discusses that experience with Lady [[Galadriel]].

'''2011: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: War in the North]]'':'''
:Arwen resides in Rivendell, where players can discuss with her both historical and present subjects. While sporting the appearance of [[Liv Tyler]], her role is closer to the book than that in the movie: for example, she provides Halbarad and the Grey Company with the banner she had made for Aragorn, an event omitted from the movie adaptation. She is voiced by [[Courtenay Taylor]].

{{references}}
[[Category:Characters in The Lord of the Rings]]
[[Category:Fourth Age characters]]
[[Category:Half-elven]]
[[Category:House of Finarfin]]
[[Category:Gondorians]]
[[Category:Noldor]]
[[Category:Sindarin names]]
[[Category:Third Age characters]]
[[de:Arwen]]
[[fr:encyclo:personnages:elfes:semi-elfes:arwen]]
[[fi:Arwen]]

Túrin

2020-11-04T18:16:20Z

75.118.149.152: /* Legacy */ fixed typo

{{Sources}}
{{disambig-more|Túrin|[[Túrin (disambiguation)]]}}
{{disambig-two|the tragic hero of the [[First Age]]|[[Kings of Gondor|King]] of [[Gondor]]|[[Turambar (King of Gondor)]]}}
{{Edain infobox
| name=Túrin Turambar
| image=[[Image:Elena Kukanova - The Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin.jpg|250px]]
| caption="The Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin" by [[:Category:Images by Elena Kukanova|Elena Kukanova]]
| pronun=
| othernames=''[[Neithan]]'', ''[[Gorthol]]'', ''[[Agarwaen]]'', ''[[Thurin]]'', ''[[Adanedhel]]'', ''[[Mormegil]]''; Bane of Glaurung<ref>{{S|17}}</ref>, Wildman of the Woods, ''Dagnir Glaurunga'', Woodwose
| titles=Prince of [[Dor-lómin]]
| position=
| location=Dor-lómin, [[Doriath]], [[Talath Dirnen]], [[Brethil]]
| affiliation=[[Gaurwaith]]
| language=[[Sindarin]], some [[Mannish]] dialect
| birth={{FA|464}}
| birthlocation=[[Dor-lómin]], [[Hithlum]]
| rule=
| death={{FA|499}}
| deathlocation=[[Cabed-en-Aras]]
| age=35
| notablefor=slaying of [[Glaurung]]; destruction of [[Nargothrond]]
| house=[[House of Hador]]
| parentage=[[Húrin]] & [[Morwen]]
| siblings=[[Lalaith]] & [[Nienor]]
| spouse=Nienor
| children=One, unborn at Nienor's death
| gender=Male
| height=Tall<ref name="Turin">{{S|Turin}}</ref>
| hair=Dark<ref name="Childhood">{{CH|1}}</ref>
| eyes=Grey<ref name="Turin"/> or blue<ref name="Narn">{{UT|Narn}}</ref>
| clothing=[[Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin]], elven mail, grey tunic and cloak<ref name="Outlaws">{{CH|6}}</ref> [[Dwarf-mask]]<ref name="Turin"></ref>
| weapons=[[Anglachel]]/[[Gurthang]]
| steed=
}}
<center>{{quote|He was dark-haired as his mother, and promised to be like her in mood also; for he was not merry, and spoke little, though he learned to speak early and ever seemed older than his years. Túrin was slow to forget injustice or mockery; but the fire of his father was also in him, and he could be sudden and fierce. Yet he was quick to pity, and the hurts or sadness of living things might move him to tears.|''[[The Children of Húrin]]'', "[[The Childhood of Túrin]]"}}</center>
'''Túrin Turambar''' ({{FA|464}}–[[First Age 499|499]]) was a tragic hero of the First Age whose life was dominated by the curse of the [[Morgoth|Enemy]]. His deeds became the tale called ''[[Narn i Chîn Húrin (tale)|Narn i Chîn Húrin]]'' ("The Tale of the Children of Húrin").

==History==
[[Image:Alan Lee - The Childhood of Túrin.jpg|thumb|left|''The Childhood of Túrin'' by [[Alan Lee]]]]
Túrin was the only son of [[Húrin|Húrin Thalion]] and [[Morwen|Morwen Eledhwen]]. He had a younger sister ''Urwen'' whom everyone called [[Lalaith]], but she died in childhood of a plague, the first grievous event in Túrin's life caused by Morgoth's curse. After Húrin was captured in the [[Nirnaeth Arnoediad]] ("Battle of Unnumbered Tears"), Túrin remained with his mother Morwen, who hid him from the [[Easterlings]] that [[Morgoth]] had sent to [[Hithlum]], fearing they would kill Túrin or enslave him. Húrin's capture and failure to return home was the curse's second grief.

Túrin was friends with [[Sador]], their household servant whom he helped in his works. Sador taught him many things, and carved for him several things from wood.

===Doriath===
When Túrin was nine years old Morwen sent him to [[Doriath]], away from his beloved mother and best friend, causing his heart to break for the third time since the curse was cast on him. She sent with him [[Gethron]] and [[Grithnir]], long time servants in Húrin's house. Shortly after their departure from Dor-Lómin, Túrin's second sister, [[Nienor]] was born. The road there was long and difficult, and the three travellers came close to dying of hunger and cold in the very outlying woods of their destination, but they were rescued by [[Beleg]]. In Doriath he was adopted by King [[Thingol]] as a son, being that his father Húrin was held in high honor in those lands. Thingol and Melian sent messengers inviting Túrin's mother to come live in Doriath, which she declined much to Túrin's grief.
[[File:Anke Eißmann - Túrin begs leave of Thingol and Melian.jpg|150px|left|thumb|''Túrin begs leave of Thingol and Melian'' by [[Anke Eißmann]]]]
In Doriath Túrin learned many things, such as hunting, woodcraft, archery, swordfighting and speaking [[Sindarin]]. As he grew older, however, he became restless. He began inquiring about the Men of the North, as Thingol and Morwen frequently exchanged news for Túrin's sake. Through these messages he learned about his sister Nienor, although he never saw her. As Morgoth's hold on the North increased and news from Hithlum grew scarce, Túrin sought to travel there to join the fight against the Dark Lord and find out about his kin. He asked the King's permission to join [[Beleg|Beleg Cúthalion]] in the northern marches of Doriath, fighting the [[Orcs]] of Morgoth. He wore the [[Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin]], which was sent by his mother and brought to him by Thingol's messengers, and the Orcs began to fear him more than any other.

Túrin accidentally caused the death of [[Saeros]], one of Thingol's counsellors who had provoked and attacked him. Before he could be either punished or forgiven he fled, eventually meeting up with a band of outlaws, the [[Gaurwaith]] that dwelt south of the [[Forest of Brethil]]. There he identified himself only as '''''Neithan''''' ("The Wronged"). Túrin killed their leader [[Forweg]] and became their leader in his place. During his rule he stopped the outlaws from raiding houses of Men, and only hunted Orcs.

===Dor-Cúarthol===
In the meantime Beleg Cúthalion obtained leave by Thingol to seek out his friend. Beleg found Túrin's outlaws at Amon Rûdh and when he could not persuade his friend to leave the outlaws, he left to return to Doriath. While they were parted, and after such a long time living in the wild, Túrin's band captured [[Mîm]] the [[Petty-dwarves|Petty-dwarf]]. Mîm was forced to share his halls on [[Amon Rûdh]] with them.
[[File:Elena Kukanova - Strongbow and Dragonhelm.jpg|thumb|200px|left|''Strongbow and Dragonhelm'' by [[:Category:Images by Elena Kukanova|Elena Kukanova]]]]
At Doriath, Beleg asked to be able to join his friend. Thingol allowed this and also gave him the black sword [[Anglachel]], and [[Melian]] gave him ''[[lembas]]''. Beleg returned to Túrin that winter, healing those of the band that had become sick with cold. Beleg brought with him the Dragon-helm, and the area around Amon Rûdh became known as '''[[Dor-Cúarthol]]''', the "Land of Bow and Helm" (since Beleg was known as a mighty bowman). There Túrin took the name '''''Gorthol''''', "The Dread Helm". Many warriors joined them, and much of [[West Beleriand]] was freed from evil for a while.

Eventually Túrin was betrayed by Mîm, and he was captured and all his men slain. Beleg survived and rescued Túrin from the Orcs in [[Taur-nu-Fuin (Dorthonion)|Taur-nu-Fuin]] with the help of [[Gwindor]], an escaped slave of Morgoth, but Túrin accidentally killed Beleg with Beleg's sword Anglachel. Gwindor led Túrin, dazed, to the [[Pools of Ivrin]], where he came back to his senses.

===Nargothrond===
Gwindor then led Túrin to [[Nargothrond]], where once he had lived. In Nargothrond Túrin hid his name, calling himself '''''[[Agarwaen]], son of [[Úmarth]]''''' ("Bloodstained, son of Ill-fate"). He had Anglachel reforged and named it [[Gurthang]] ("Iron of Death"). [[Finduilas]], daughter of [[Orodreth]], fell in love with him, but he avoided her because she had previously been the beloved of his friend Gwindor. Túrin declined to tell her his name, so that she called him '''''Thurin''''' ("The Secret"). He was also called '''''Adanedhel''''' ("Man-Elf") because he was so like an Elf, though he was a [[Men|Man]].

His identity did not remain hidden for long. Gwindor revealed to [[Finduilas]] that 'Agarwaen' was in fact Túrin, and 'Úmarth' his famous father [[Húrin]]. When news of this reached Finduilas' father, King [[Orodreth]], Túrin was given great honour and standing, but the revelation of Túrin's identity would also bring home Morgoth's curse.
[[File:Donato Giancola - Sack of Nargothrond.jpeg|thumb|200px|''Sack of Nargothrond'' by [[Donato Giancola]]]]
Túrin became a chief counsellor of the weak Orodreth, and was extremely influential in Nargothrond. He encouraged the Nargothrondrim to abandon their practice of secrecy, and they built a great bridge before the gates. Because of his prowess with Gurthang, he himself became known as '''''Mormegil''''' ("Black Sword").
Morgoth sent the [[Dragons|Dragon]] [[Glaurung]] to Nargothrond. Túrin was caught by the powerful gaze of Glaurung, and stood by idly as Finduilas was dragged away, calling to him, a captive for Morgoth. Glaurung deceived him into believing Morwen and Nienor were suffering in Dor-lómin, and Túrin abandoned Finduilas to seek out his kin. In actuality Morwen and Nienor were safely in Doriath, as Túrin's own efforts had made the way passable.

Once in Dor-lómin, Túrin found his old home empty. He went to the halls of the Easterling lord [[Brodda]], who had taken Húrin's kinswoman [[Aerin]] as a wife and had taken Húrin's lands and possessions. From Aerin, Túrin learned that Morwen had left, and in his rage he killed Brodda, thereby also sealing Aerin's fate. As Túrin left again, Aerin burnt herself alive in her halls, and the remainder of the [[House of Hador]] now was persecuted even more cruelly.

Túrin next tried to find Finduilas, but by the time he picked up the Orc's trail he came too late: the woodsmen of [[Brethil]] informed him she had been killed as they had tried to rescue the prisoners of Nargothrond. Túrin collapsed on the mound she was buried in, and was brought to Brethil.

===Brethil===
In Brethil, Túrin again took up his life, now calling himself '''''Turambar''''' ("Master of Fate") in an act of bravado, deciding that his curse was now finally over. One day he found a naked young woman on [[Haudh-en-Elleth]], and calling her ''[[Níniel]]'' he later took her as his wife.

Túrin's happiness ended when Glaurung came near Brethil. Túrin with two others set out to kill the dragon, but he was the only one to reach the drake. With his black sword he killed Glaurung at [[Cabed-en-Aras]], but was hurt and fell in a swoon. As Níniel came to search for him, Glaurung with his last words revealed to her she was Túrin's sister. Horrified, Nienor Níniel killed herself.

[[File:John Howe - Dragon's Curse.jpg|thumb|200px|''Dragon's Curse'' by [[John Howe]]]]
When Túrin awoke he was told by [[Brandir]], lord of the [[Haladin]] of Brethil what had happened, and he killed Brandir, refusing to believe. When he learned from [[Mablung]] of Doriath who had come to seek him that Brandir had told the truth, he killed himself on [[Gurthang]], his black sword.

Túrin was buried near Finduilas' grave, and on his tombstone the Haladin wrote in the [[Angerthas Daeron|Cirth of Doriath]]:

<blockquote>TÚRIN TURAMBAR DAGNIR GLAURUNGA (''Túrin, Conqueror of Fate, Slayer of Glaurung'')</blockquote>

Beneath that they also wrote:

<blockquote>NIENOR NÍNIEL</blockquote>

though her body could not be found.

==Legacy==
Morwen and Húrin later met at this site for the last time, and Morwen was also buried there. The mound survived the [[War of Wrath]], as [[Tol Morwen]] was the westernmost isle off the coast of [[Lindon]] in the [[Second Age|Second]] and [[Third Age]]s.<ref>{{S|22}}</ref>

According to [[Dagor Dagorath|a prophecy]] attributed to the Vala [[Mandos]], it is said that at the end of time Morgoth would wage a [[Final Battle]] against the [[Valar]], and that Túrin Turambar would deliver the death blow, exterminating evil forever.<ref>{{LR|Quenta}}, p. 333</ref> A [[Wise-woman]] among the [[Edain]] called [[Andreth]] mentions Túrin in an imprecise context, in which he will return from the Dead before he left the [[Circles of the World]] for ever, challeging the Great Dragon of Morgoth, [[Ancalagon]] the Black, and deal him the death-stroke.<ref>{{PM|Ros}}, p. 374, note 17</ref>

Túrin was a first cousin of [[Tuor]], father of [[Eärendil]]. There are many parallels between the circumstances of their lives (both lost their fathers in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, were raised in part by Elves, spent time as outlaws and as prisoners, and were war-leaders in the greatest [[Noldor|Noldorin]] fortresses), but the outcome of Tuor's life was quite different. (Even Túrin's coloring was dark, enhancing his resemblance to the Noldorin Elves but further setting him apart from his fair-haired cousin.) The two never actually met, but Tuor did once see his cousin in passing (not an everyday occurrence in the wilds of [[Beleriand]]).

Whether the tragedies in Túrin's life were the result of Morgoth's curse or of his own arrogance, or some combination of the two, is a subject of some debate among scholars. Túrin is one of the few heroes of the [[Elder Days]] to have committed suicide and several of the others (such as [[Aerin]], Húrin and Nienor) are connected with his story.

== The many names of Túrin ==
* ''[[Adanedhel]]'' = "Man-Elf"<ref>{{CH|10}}, p. 164</ref>
* ''[[Agarwaen]], son of [[Úmarth]]'' = "Bloodstained, son of Ill-fate"<ref>{{CH|10}}, p. 159</ref>
* ''[[Gorthol]]'' = "The Dread Helm"<ref>{{CH|8}}, p. 146</ref>
* ''[[Mormegil]]'' = "Black Sword"<ref>{{CH|10}}, p. 160</ref>
* ''[[Neithan]]'' = "The Wronged"<ref>{{CH|6}}, p. 101</ref>
* ''[[Thurin]]'' = "The Secret"<ref>{{CH|10}}, p. 165</ref>
* ''Turambar'' = "Master of Fate"<ref>{{CH|13}}, p. 196</ref>
* Wildman of the Woods<ref>{{CH|13}}, p. 194</ref>
* Woodwose<ref>{{UT|Doriath}}</ref>

==Genealogy==
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree | | | BRE | | | | HAL | | HAD | BRE=[[Bregolas]]|HAL=[[Halmir]]|HAD=[[Hador|Hador Lórindol]]}}
{{familytree | |,|-|^|-|.| | | |!| | | |!|}}
{{familytree | BEL | | BAR | | HAR |y| GAL | BEL=[[Belegund]]|BAR=[[Baragund]]|GAL=[[Galdor (Lord of Dor-lómin)|Galdor of Dor-lómin]]|HAR=[[Hareth]]}}
{{familytree | | | | | |!| | | |,|-|^|-|.|}}
{{familytree | | | | | MOR |y| HUR | | HUO | | |MOR=[[Morwen|Morwen Eledhwen]]|HUR=[[Húrin|Húrin Thalion]]|HUO=[[Huor]]}}
{{familytree | | | |,|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|.| | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | TUR | | LAL | | NIE | | | | TUR='''TÚRIN TURAMBAR'''|LAL=[[Lalaith]]|NIE=[[Nienor]]}}
{{familytree | | | |L|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|J| | | | | | |}}
{{familytree/end}}

==Etymology==
:''See: [[Túrin (disambiguation)]] and [[Turambar (disambiguation)]]''

It's possible that during Túrin's lifetime ([[First Age]]), the name was pronounced as ''Túrind'' before simplified in the following centuries. The [[Quenya]] form of his name is ''Turindo''.<ref>{{LR|P3}}, entry "[[TUR]]"</ref>

==Inspiration==
Unpublished drafts of the story, later edited by [[Christopher Tolkien]] and published in ''[[Unfinished Tales]]'' and ''[[The History of Middle-earth]]'' series, tell the story in greater detail. These have been carefully edited together with other drafts to form ''[[The Children of Húrin]]'', released in 2007.

The supposed resemblance of Túrin to figures from medieval tales can be confirmed by part of a letter Tolkien wrote to [[Milton Waldman]] concerning the publication of his works:

{{blockquote|There is the ''Children of Húrin'', the tragic tale of Túrin Turambar and his sister Níniel — of which Túrin is the hero: a figure that might be said (by people who like that sort of thing, though it is not very useful) to be '''derived from elements in Sigurd the Volsung, Oedipus, and the Finnish Kullervo'''.|[[Letter 131]]}}

{{blockquote|Again one may detect certain literary influences: the hero’s [Túrin’s] fight with a great dragon [Glaurung] inevitably suggests comparison with the deeds of '''Sigurd''' and '''Beowulf''', while his unknowing incest with his sister and his subsequent suicide were derived quite consciously from the story of '''Kullervo in the Kalevala'''.|''[[J.R.R. Tolkien: A Biography]]'', Part III, Chapter 1: "Lost Tales"}}

Túrin shares several common traits with all of the characters below, like coming closer to their fate when attempting to evade it. Another significant trait is their gifted but hot tempered nature and strong will paired with their reluctance to heed wise counsels that would save them from their fate.

===Oedipus===
'''[[Wikipedia:Oedipus|Oedipus]]''' was a prince of Thebes, but his parents heard a prophecy that he would cause their demise. To evade it, they order a shepherd to kill him. However the shepherd spares the baby and gives him to a childless family. Oedipus grew ignorant of his heritage; he then heard a prophecy according to which he will kill his father and marry his mother. He left in self-exile to take himself away from his (foster) parents.

However this brought himself closer to Thebes and his actual parents. On his way, he kills a man who unknown to him, is his actual father, the King of Thebes, fulfilling therefore part of the prophecy. Then he enters the city and after defeating the Sphinx, the people name him to replace the lost King of Thebes; furthermore, Oedipus marries the King's widow, who is in fact his mother.

Years later, while investigating the death of the former King, he realizes all the truths in his life: the King was the very man he had killed, and furthermore, he and his Queen, were his parents. Oedipus blinds himself and leaves in self-exile while his mother/wife strangles herself.

===Kullervo===
:''See also: [[Kalevala#Túrin Turambar and Kullervo|Túrin Turambar and Kullervo]]''
In the [[Kalevala]], '''[[Wikipedia:Kullervo|Kullervo]]''''s tribe is killed by his uncle, and himself is separated by his family, something that fills him with hate and desire for revenge. As a slave, he uses magic to kill his masters and returns to his tribe; afterwards he seduces a girl, who commits suicide after discovering she is his lost sister.

Then he repeats his vows: he refuses to hear any words of reconsideration and gets a broadsword which he uses to slay the enemy tribe. On his return, he sees all his family dead. He asks the magic sword to slay him, which replies, and then he falls on it.

===Sigurd===
'''[[Wikipedia:Sigurd|Sigurd]]''''s mother marries a King and Sigurd himself is fostered by a Dwarf. The Dwarf tells him about the hoard of the dragon Fafnir (who is his brother) and remakes a broken heirloom sword for him. Sigurd slays Fafnir by waiting for him in a pit, stabbing him with the sword as he passes over it. The gold he wins, however, is cursed.

===Balin===
'''[[Wikipedia:Sir Balin|Sir Balin]]''' was a knight of the King Arthur's court in ''Le Morte d'Arthur'' who possessed a magic sword. By this he was unknowingly cursed to slay his own brother. Through a well-meaning act of his, he is further cursed to make the most dolorous strike ever made by man, save only the piercing of Christ's side. Later, while in King Pellam's castle, he kills Pellam's brother and maims Pellam, ruining the castle and making all the surrounding lands into a wasteland, much as Túrin slayed Brodda in his own house and how his pride brought about the destruction of Nargothrond. Eventually, he kills his brother Balan, but is mortally wounded in doing so, and outlives him by only a few hours. They were then both laid in one grave.

==See also==
*''[[The Children of Húrin]]''
*''[[The Story of Kullervo]]''

{{References}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:Turin}}
{{gaurwaith}}
[[Category:Characters in The Book of Lost Tales]]
[[Category:Characters in The Silmarillion]]
[[Category:Characters in The Children of Húrin]]
[[Category:House of Bëor]]
[[Category:House of Hador]]
[[Category:House of Haleth]]
[[Category:Quenya names]]
[[Category:Sindarin names]]
[[Category:First Age characters]]

[[de:Túrin]]
[[fi:Túrin]]
[[fr:encyclo/personnages/hommes/1a/peuple_de_hador/turin]]

The Atlas of Middle-earth

2020-10-25T06:00:55Z

75.118.149.152: substantial reorganization of content

{{book
|title=The Atlas of Middle-Earth
|image=[[Image:The Atlas of Middle-earth.jpg|225px]]
|author=[[Karen Wynn Fonstad]]
|publisher=[[Houghton Mifflin]]
|date=[[29 May]] [[1981]] 1991 (revised edition)
|format=Paperback
|pages=210
|isbn=0618126996
}}

'''''The Atlas of Middle-earth''''' by [[Karen Wynn Fonstad]] is an atlas of various lands in [[Arda]]. It includes specific maps for ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' and ''[[The Hobbit]]'', for which it is intended as a reading companion.

==Contents==
The maps are treated as if they are of real landscapes, and are drawn according to the same rules that a real atlas is drawn: for each area the history of the land is taken into account, as well as geography on a larger scale and from there maps are drawn. Discussion includes suggestions as to the geology that could explain various formations, and points that are contradictory between multiple accounts.

City maps and floor plans for important buildings are also included; these are very often useful for making sense of the narratives, especially in ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''. As well, many battles such as [[Battles of Beleriand|those]] of [[Beleriand]], the [[Last Alliance]] and the [[War of the Ring]] are illustrated.

The book was published in [[1981]], but in [[1991]] a revised and updated version was published, which took information from ''[[The History of Middle-earth]]'' into account.

Fonstad also made a bold attempt to fill the gaps by using early conceptual work, mainly from ''[[The Book of Lost Tales Part One]]'' and the ''[[Ambarkanta]]'', combining the later known maps with the sketches used by Tolkien to provide "world maps" of [[Arda]] in its entirety and show [[Aman]], [[Beleriand]]'s position relative to [[Eriador]], and the place of [[Númenor]] in the Sea.

It was, however, published before the final three volumes of ''[[The History of Middle-earth]]'' were published, and thus some maps are based on [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]]'s early works, which were revised in later writings.

==Errors and criticism==
Despite being a thoroughly researched and well-respected reference book, the ''Atlas'' is known to contain several errors. However, a number of these were corrected in the revised edition, as noted below.

===Inconsistencies with the published Legendarium===
*Pages 4 and 5: The mountain range which appears in the western area of [[Haradwaith]] south of the [[Great Gulf]] is labelled as the "[[Grey Mountains (ancient)|Grey Mountains]]". ''[[Ambarkanta|The Ambarkanta]]'' states that the Grey Mountains were located in the [[Dark Land|Southlands]], another name for the Dark Land.<ref>{{SM|5b}} p. 239</ref>
*Page 13: Nogrod is shown north of Belegost, and both south of Mount Dolmed. ''[[The Silmarillion]]'' states that Nogrod was the more southerly of the two. [[The Shaping of Middle-earth]] states that Gabilgathol (Belegost) was "north of the great height of Mount Dolmed".
*Pages 39 and 88: On both pages, [[Drúwaith Iaur]] is shown north of the [[Ered Nimrais]] and south of the [[Angren]], and on page 39 extending east below the [[Adorn]]. In the Unfinished Tales map, Drúwaith Iaur is in the narrow area between the ocean and the southern Ered Nimrais, south of the mouth of the [[Angren]].<ref>{{UT|Index}}, "Map"</ref>
*Pages 92 and 93: The location of [[Lithlad]] is given as being in the south of [[Mordor]], rather than the northeast.
*Page 99: It is written that Bilbo gave the Arkenstone to the Elvenking and Bard on 22 November, then Dáin arrived in the early morning on 23 November. In ''The Hobbit'', [[Bilbo Baggins|Bilbo]] gave away the [[Arkenstone]] and then returned before midnight to wake up Bombur.<ref>{{H|Thief}}</ref> The next day, there was a new parley and it was revealed that the elves and men had the Arkenstone, and [[Thorin|Thorin]] expelled Bilbo from the [[Lonely Mountain]]. On the ''next'' morning, Dáin arrived.<ref name="Burst">{{H|Burst}}</ref> Fonstad's timeline has Dáin arriving in one day, while the text of ''The Hobbit'' has him arriving in two days. Either Dáin must have arrived on 24 November or Bilbo must have handed over the Arkenstone late on 21 November.
*Page 106: In ''The Hobbit'', the dwarves saw a fire off in the woods. "The light was ahead of them and to the ''left'' of the path".<ref>{{H|Flies}}</ref> In Fonstad's map the dwarves left the path to the right. ''(Corrected in 2nd edition.)''
*Page 125: The map of [[Bree]] and the surrounding towns, [[Combe]] is shown laying to the northwest of [[Staddle]] on the east side of the [[Bree-hill]], while in fact Combe should lie a little east of Staddle's location.<ref>{{FR|Sign}}</ref>

====Inconsistencies with later publications====
Both the first and second editions of the ''Atlas'' were written before the final three volumes of [[The History of Middle-earth]] were published, so at certain points it is contradicted by this later material. [[The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien]], which was published between the first and second editions of the ''Atlas'', is not taken into account in the revision.
*Page viii: [[Middle-earth]] dominates much of the northern hemisphere of [[Arda]] [[Changing of the World|made round]], with [[Forochel]] being high in the polar regions of the world and [[Umbar]] laying more than halfway southward between the northern pole and the [[Girdle of Arda|equator]].
**In [[Letter 294]], Tolkien confirms that [[Hobbiton]] is intended to be at the latitude of [[wikipedia:Oxford|Oxford]], with [[Minas Tirith]] 600 miles south being near to the latitude of [[wikipedia:Florence|Florence]]. With this information, it is clear that Middle-earth would be hardly as large as it appears on the ''Atlas'' map of a round Arda.
*Pages 4 and 5: The [[Sea of Helcar]] is seen to cover the area of future [[Mordor]], [[Khand]], and [[Rhûn]], and the [[Sea of Rhûn]] and [[Sea of Núrnen]] are shown as its remnants. The [[Orocarni]] in the East are approximately 800 to 1700 miles away from the [[Misty Mountains]].
**In ''[[The Peoples of Middle-earth]]'', there are references to the Sea of Rhûn existing in the [[First Age]], as well as the forest to its northeast and the hills to its southwest, indicating that it must be separate from the Sea of Helcar.
** ''The Peoples of Middle-earth'' also indicates that the distance between the Orocarni in the East and the Misty Mountains, specifically [[Gundabad]], was said to be as great or greater than that of Gundabad's distance to the [[Blue Mountains]] in the West.<ref>{{PM|Dwarves}}</ref>
*Pages 38 and 39: The western shores of [[Lindon]] and the [[Ethir Anduin]] are shown to exist in the [[Second Age]] of the world as they did in the [[Third Age]].
**''The Peoples of Middle-earth'' tells that during the [[Akallabêth|Downfall of Númenor]], Lindon lost much land to the advancing shores, while the eastern and southern portions of the [[Bay of Belfalas]] retreated back, putting the city of [[Pelargir]], which had been only a few miles from the coast, much farther inland.

===Internal inconsistencies===
*Pages 12 and 53: [[Dorthonion]] and [[Himring]] are located slightly above parallel J. However much later, [[Tol Fuin]] and [[Himling]] are seen much northern, above parallel I.
*Pages 38 and 41: [[Belegost]] has been moved 150 miles further south than previously shown to the middle of the southern [[Blue Mountains]].
*Pages 53, 76, and 80: On page 53, [[Rhosgobel]] is located near the border of [[Mirkwood]] well ''south'' of the [[Old Forest Road]], due east of [[Moria]]. On pages 76 and 80, Rhosgobel is still at the edge of the forest, but ''north'' of the Old Forest Road. One or the other location should have been used, not both.
**In ''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]'', it is stated that in December of [[TA|TA3019]], scouts "had climbed the pass at the source of the [[Gladden River]], and had come down into [[Rhovanion|Wilderland]] and over the [[Gladden Fields]] and so at length had reached the old home of [[Radagast]] at Rhosgobel", which supports the page 53 location.<ref>{{FR|II3}}</ref>
**In ''[[Unfinished Tales]]'', [[Christopher Tolkien]] states that Rhosgobel was "in the forest borders between the [[Carrock]] and the Old Forest Road".<ref>{{UT|Istari}}, Note 4</ref>

===Typographical errors===
*Page 2: [[Sea of Ringil]] is written as "Sea of Ringol".
*Page 7: [[Ezellohar]] is written as "Ezollahar". [[Ilmarin]] is written as "Ilmaren". [[Tol Eressëa|Eressëa]] is written as "Erresëa".
*Pages 6 and 38: [[Avallónë]] is written as "Avalónnë" and "Avalonnë" respectively.
*Pages 7 and 38: [[Alqualondë]] is written as "Aqualondë".
*Page 13: [[Gabilgathol]] is written as "Gabilgathod".
*Page 53: [[Caras Galadhon]] is written as "Caras Galadon".
*Page 71: [[Tuckborough]] is written as "Tuckburrow".
*Page 113: [[Bolg]] is written as "Borg".<ref name="Burst"/> ''(Corrected in 2nd edition.)''
*Page 135: [[Methedras]] is written as "Mathedras".
*Page 148: [[Gamling|Gamling the Old]] is written as "Gambling the Old".
*Page 189: [[Khuzdul]], the language of the [[Dwarves]], is labeled as "[[Khazâd]]".

===Use of early sources===
The usage of early concepts of the ''[[The Book of Lost Tales Part One]]'' alongside the established [[canon]] is questionable. In [[Aman]], Fonstad identified the early name "[[Hanstovánen]]" and also describes various dwellings of the [[Valar]] in [[Valinor]]. The same happens with [[Tol Eressëa]], whose Second Age map portrays [[Tavrobel]] and [[Kortirion]], and [[Gondolin]], where several landmarks are brought in from early works. Fonstad seems to have been aware of the potential issues with incorporating these places named in early writings, and explicitly points out the especially speculative nature of these maps of the Undying Lands in the accompanying text.

{{References}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:Atlas of Middle-earth, The}}
{{title|italics}}
[[Category:Map books]]
[[Category:Publications by title]]

The Atlas of Middle-earth

2020-10-24T20:32:36Z

75.118.149.152: /* Errors and criticism */ typo

{{book
|title=The Atlas of Middle-Earth
|image=[[Image:The Atlas of Middle-earth.jpg|225px]]
|author=[[Karen Wynn Fonstad]]
|publisher=[[Houghton Mifflin]]
|date=[[29 May]] [[1981]] 1991 (revised edition)
|format=Paperback
|pages=210
|isbn=0618126996
}}

'''''The Atlas of Middle-earth''''' by [[Karen Wynn Fonstad]] is an atlas of various lands in [[Arda]]. It includes specific maps for ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' and ''[[The Hobbit]]'', for which it is intended as a reading companion.

==Contents==
The maps are treated as if they are of real landscapes, and are drawn according to the same rules that a real atlas is drawn: for each area the history of the land is taken into account, as well as geography on a larger scale and from there maps are drawn. Discussion includes suggestions as to the geology that could explain various formations, and points that are contradictory between multiple accounts.

City maps and floor plans for important buildings are also included; these are very often useful for making sense of the narratives, especially in ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''. As well, many battles such as [[Battles of Beleriand|those]] of [[Beleriand]], the [[Last Alliance]] and the [[War of the Ring]] are illustrated.

The book was published in [[1981]], but in [[1991]] a revised and updated version was published, which took information from ''[[The History of Middle-earth]]'' into account.

Fonstad also made a bold attempt to fill the gaps by using early conceptual work, mainly from ''[[The Book of Lost Tales Part One]]'' and the ''[[Ambarkanta]]'', combining the later known maps with the sketches used by Tolkien to provide "world maps" of [[Arda]] in its entirety and show [[Aman]], [[Beleriand]]'s position relative to [[Eriador]], and the place of [[Númenor]] in the Sea.

It was, however, published before the final three volumes of ''[[The History of Middle-earth]]'' were published, and thus some maps are based on [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]]'s early works, which were revised in later writings.

==Errors and criticism==
Despite being a thoroughly researched and well-respected reference book, the ''Atlas'' is known to contain several errors. However, a number of these were corrected in the revised edition, as noted below.
*Page 2: [[Sea of Ringil]] is written as "Ringol"
*Page 4 and 5: The mountain range which appears in the western area of [[Haradwaith]] south of the [[Great Gulf]] is labelled as the "[[Grey Mountains (ancient)|Grey Mountains]]". However, it is said in ''[[Ambarkanta|The Ambarkanta]]'' that the Grey Mountains were located in the [[Dark Land|Southlands]], another name for the Dark Land.<ref>{{SM|5b}} p. 239</ref>
*Page 7: [[Ezellohar]] is written as "Ezollahar". [[Ilmarin]] is written as "Ilmaren". [[Tol Eressëa|Eressëa]] is written as "Erresëa".
*Pages 6 and 38: [[Avallónë]] is written as "Avalónnë" and "Avalonnë" respectively.
*Pages 7 and 38: [[Alqualondë]] is written as "Aqualondë".
*Page 13: [[Gabilgathol]] is once written as "Gabilgathod".
:*Belegost and Nogrod seem to have switched positions: ''[[The Silmarillion]]'' mentions that Nogrod was the southern one. Also, Tolkien mentions that Gabilgathol was "north of the great height of Mount Dolmed" while Fonstad has both of them south. This change was made in accordance with [[The History of Middle-earth]] volume IV, [[The Shaping of Middle-earth]].
*Page 12 and page 53: [[Dorthonion]] and [[Himring]] are located slightly above parallel J. However much later, [[Tol Fuin]] and [[Himling]] are seen much northern, above parallel I.
*Pages 38 and 41: [[Belegost]] has been moved 150 miles further south than previously shown to the middle of the southern [[Blue Mountains]].
*Pages 39 and 88: [[Drúwaith Iaur]] is shown north of the [[Ered Nimrais]] and south of the [[Angren]], and on page 39 extending east below the [[Adorn]]. In the Unfinished Tales map Drúwaith Iaur is in the narrow area between the ocean and the southern Ered Nimrais, south of the mouth of the [[Angren]].<ref>{{UT|Index}}, "Map"</ref>
*Page 53: [[Caras Galadhon]] is written "Caras Galadon".
*Pages 53, 76, and 80: On page 53, [[Rhosgobel]] is located near the border of [[Mirkwood]] well ''south'' of the [[Old Forest Road]], due east of [[Moria]]. On pages 76 and 80, Rhosgobel is still at the edge of the forest, but ''north'' of the Old Forest Road. One or the other location should have been used, not both.
:*Note: In ''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]'', during the month of December, [[TA|3019]], it is mentioned that scouts "had climbed the pass at the source of the [[Gladden River]], and had come down into [[Rhovanion|Wilderland]] and over the [[Gladden Fields]] and so at length had reached the old home of [[Radagast]] at Rhosgobel" which would seem to support the page 53 location.<ref>{{FR|II3}}</ref> However, in the ''[[Unfinished Tales]]'', [[Christopher Tolkien]] said that Rhosgobel was "in the forest borders between the [[Carrock]] and the Old Forest Road".<ref>{{UT|Istari}}, Note 4</ref>
*Page 71: [[Tuckborough]] is written "Tuckburrow".
*Page 92 and 93: The location of [[Lithlad]] is given as being in the south of [[Mordor]], rather than the northeast.
*Page 99: It is written that Bilbo gave the Arkenstone to the Elvenking and Bard on ''22 November'', then Dáin arrived in the early morning on ''23 November''. In ''The Hobbit'', [[Bilbo Baggins|Bilbo]] gave away the [[Arkenstone]] and then returned ''before midnight'' to wake up Bombur.<ref>{{H|Thief}}</ref> The next day, there was a new parley and it was revealed that the elves and the men had the Arkenstone, and [[Thorin|Thorin]] expelled Bilbo from the [[Lonely Mountain]]. On the ''next'' morning, Dáin arrived.<ref name="Burst">{{H|Burst}}</ref> Fonstad had Dáin arriving in one day, the text of ''The Hobbit'' had him arriving in two days. Either Dáin must have arrived on 24 November or Bilbo must have handed over the Arkenstone late on 21 November.
*Page 106: In ''The Hobbit'', the dwarves saw a fire off in the woods. "The light was ahead of them and to the ''left'' of the path".<ref>{{H|Flies}}</ref> In Fonstad's map the dwarves left the path to the right. (Corrected in 2nd edition.)
*Page 113: The leader of the goblins is named "Borg". It should be [[Bolg]],<ref name="Burst"/> which is twice printed correctly on the preceding page. (Corrected in 2nd edition.)
*Page 125: The map of [[Bree]] and the surrounding towns, [[Combe]] is shown laying to the northwest of [[Staddle]] on the east side of the [[Bree-hill]], while in fact Combe should lie a little east of Staddle's location.<ref>{{FR|Sign}}</ref>
*Page 135: In the map of [[Orthanc]], the last peak is named "Mathedras" instead of "[[Methedras]]".
*Page 148: [[Gamling|Gamling the Old]] is called "Gambling the Old".
*Page 189: The language of the [[Dwarves]] is labeled "[[Khazâd]]" instead of [[Khuzdul]].

The usage of early concepts of the ''[[The Book of Lost Tales Part One]]'' alongside the established [[canon]], are also arguably controversial. In [[Aman]], Fonstad identified the early name "[[Hanstovánen]]" and also she points out the dwellings of the [[Valar]] in [[Valinor]]. The same happens with [[Tol Eressëa]] whose (tentative) maps portray [[Tavrobel]] and [[Kortirion]] as well as some places in [[Gondolin]].

==Post-publication Canon==
Since the ''Atlas'' was published before the publication of the final three volumes of ''The History of Middle-earth'' and did not take Tolkien's [[The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien|letters]] into account, her maps bear some contradictions to later established canon concerning Middle-earth's geography.
*Page viii: [[Middle-earth]] dominates much of the northern hemisphere of [[Arda]] [[Changing of the World|made round]], with [[Forochel]] being high in the polar regions of the world and [[Umbar]] laying more than halfway southward between the northern pole and the [[Girdle of Arda|equator]].
**In [[Letter 294]], Tolkien confirms that [[Hobbiton]] is intended to be at the latitude of [[wikipedia:Oxford|Oxford]], with [[Minas Tirith]] 600 miles south being near to the latitude of [[wikipedia:Florence|Florence]]. With this information, it is clear that Middle-earth would be hardly as large as it appears on the ''Atlas'' map of a round Arda.
*Pages 4 - 5: The [[Sea of Helcar]] is seen to cover the area of future [[Mordor]], [[Khand]], and [[Rhûn]], and the [[Sea of Rhûn]] and [[Sea of Núrnen]] are shown as its remnants. The [[Orocarni]] in the East are approximately 800 to 1700 miles away from the [[Misty Mountains]].
**In ''[[The Peoples of Middle-earth]]'', there are references to the Sea of Rhûn existing in the [[First Age]], as well as the forest to its northeast and the hills to its southwest, indicating that it must be separate from the Sea of Helcar.
** ''The Peoples of Middle-earth'' also indicates that the distance between the Orocarni in the East and the Misty Mountains, specifically [[Gundabad]], was said to be as great or greater than that of Gundabad's distance to the [[Blue Mountains]] in the West.<ref>{{PM|Dwarves}}</ref>
*Pages 38 - 39: The western shores of [[Lindon]] and the [[Ethir Anduin]] are shown to exist in the [[Second Age]] of the world as they did in the [[Third Age]].
**''The Peoples of Middle-earth'' tells that during the [[Akallabêth|Downfall of Númenor]], Lindon lost much land to the advancing shores, while the eastern and southern portions of the [[Bay of Belfalas]] retreated back, putting the city of [[Pelargir]], which had been only a few miles from the coast, much farther inland.

{{References}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:Atlas of Middle-earth, The}}
{{title|italics}}
[[Category:Map books]]
[[Category:Publications by title]]

The Atlas of Middle-earth

2020-10-24T20:31:47Z

75.118.149.152: /* Errors and criticism */ one more error

{{book
|title=The Atlas of Middle-Earth
|image=[[Image:The Atlas of Middle-earth.jpg|225px]]
|author=[[Karen Wynn Fonstad]]
|publisher=[[Houghton Mifflin]]
|date=[[29 May]] [[1981]] 1991 (revised edition)
|format=Paperback
|pages=210
|isbn=0618126996
}}

'''''The Atlas of Middle-earth''''' by [[Karen Wynn Fonstad]] is an atlas of various lands in [[Arda]]. It includes specific maps for ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' and ''[[The Hobbit]]'', for which it is intended as a reading companion.

==Contents==
The maps are treated as if they are of real landscapes, and are drawn according to the same rules that a real atlas is drawn: for each area the history of the land is taken into account, as well as geography on a larger scale and from there maps are drawn. Discussion includes suggestions as to the geology that could explain various formations, and points that are contradictory between multiple accounts.

City maps and floor plans for important buildings are also included; these are very often useful for making sense of the narratives, especially in ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''. As well, many battles such as [[Battles of Beleriand|those]] of [[Beleriand]], the [[Last Alliance]] and the [[War of the Ring]] are illustrated.

The book was published in [[1981]], but in [[1991]] a revised and updated version was published, which took information from ''[[The History of Middle-earth]]'' into account.

Fonstad also made a bold attempt to fill the gaps by using early conceptual work, mainly from ''[[The Book of Lost Tales Part One]]'' and the ''[[Ambarkanta]]'', combining the later known maps with the sketches used by Tolkien to provide "world maps" of [[Arda]] in its entirety and show [[Aman]], [[Beleriand]]'s position relative to [[Eriador]], and the place of [[Númenor]] in the Sea.

It was, however, published before the final three volumes of ''[[The History of Middle-earth]]'' were published, and thus some maps are based on [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]]'s early works, which were revised in later writings.

==Errors and criticism==
Despite being a thoroughly researched and well-respected reference book, the ''Atlas'' is known to contain several errors. However, a number of these were corrected in the revised edition, as noted below.
*Page 2: [[Sea of Ringil]] is written as "Ringol"
*Page 4 and 5: The mountain range which appears in the western area of [[Haradwaith]] south of the [[Great Gulf]] is labelled as the "[[Grey Mountains (ancient)|Grey Mountains]]". However, it is said in ''[[Ambarkanta|The Ambarkanta]]'' that the Grey Mountains were located in the [[Dark Land|Southlands]], another name for the Dark Land.<ref>{{SM|5b}} p. 239</ref>
*Page 7: [[Ezellohar]] is written as "Ezollahar". [[Ilmarin]] is written as "Ilmaren". [[Tol Eressëa|Eressëa]] is written as "Erresëa".
*Pages 6 and 38: [[Avallónë]] is written as "Avalónnë" and "Avalonnë" respectively.
*Pages 7 and 38: [[Alqualondë]] is written as "Aqualondë".
*Page 13: [[Gabilgathol]] is once written as "Gabilgathod".
:*Belegost and Nogrod seem to have switched positions: ''[[The Silmarillion]]'' mentions that Nogrod was the southern one. Also, Tolkien mentions that Gabilgathol was "north of the great height of Mount Dolmed" while Fonstad has both of them south. This change was made in accordance with [[The History of Middle-earth]] volume IV, [[The Shaping of Middle-earth]].
*Page 12 and page 53: [[Dorthonion]] and [[Himring]] are located slightly above parallel J. However much later, [[Tol Fuin]] and [[Himling]] are seen much northern, above parallel I.
*Pages 38 and 41: [[Belegost]] has been moved 150 miles further south than previously shown to the middle of the southern [[Blue Mountains]].
*Pages 39 and 88: [[Drúwaith Iaur]] is shown north of the [[Ered Nimrais]] and south of the [[Angren]], and on page 39 extending east below the [[Adorn]]. In the Unfinished Tales map Drúwaith Iaur is in the narrow area between the ocean and the southern Ered Nimrais, south of the mouth of the [[Angren]].<ref>{{UT|Index}}, "Map"</ref>
*Page 53: [[Caras Galadhon]] is written "Caras Galadhon".
*Pages 53, 76, and 80: On page 53, [[Rhosgobel]] is located near the border of [[Mirkwood]] well ''south'' of the [[Old Forest Road]], due east of [[Moria]]. On pages 76 and 80, Rhosgobel is still at the edge of the forest, but ''north'' of the Old Forest Road. One or the other location should have been used, not both.
:*Note: In ''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]'', during the month of December, [[TA|3019]], it is mentioned that scouts "had climbed the pass at the source of the [[Gladden River]], and had come down into [[Rhovanion|Wilderland]] and over the [[Gladden Fields]] and so at length had reached the old home of [[Radagast]] at Rhosgobel" which would seem to support the page 53 location.<ref>{{FR|II3}}</ref> However, in the ''[[Unfinished Tales]]'', [[Christopher Tolkien]] said that Rhosgobel was "in the forest borders between the [[Carrock]] and the Old Forest Road".<ref>{{UT|Istari}}, Note 4</ref>
*Page 71: [[Tuckborough]] is written "Tuckburrow".
*Page 92 and 93: The location of [[Lithlad]] is given as being in the south of [[Mordor]], rather than the northeast.
*Page 99: It is written that Bilbo gave the Arkenstone to the Elvenking and Bard on ''22 November'', then Dáin arrived in the early morning on ''23 November''. In ''The Hobbit'', [[Bilbo Baggins|Bilbo]] gave away the [[Arkenstone]] and then returned ''before midnight'' to wake up Bombur.<ref>{{H|Thief}}</ref> The next day, there was a new parley and it was revealed that the elves and the men had the Arkenstone, and [[Thorin|Thorin]] expelled Bilbo from the [[Lonely Mountain]]. On the ''next'' morning, Dáin arrived.<ref name="Burst">{{H|Burst}}</ref> Fonstad had Dáin arriving in one day, the text of ''The Hobbit'' had him arriving in two days. Either Dáin must have arrived on 24 November or Bilbo must have handed over the Arkenstone late on 21 November.
*Page 106: In ''The Hobbit'', the dwarves saw a fire off in the woods. "The light was ahead of them and to the ''left'' of the path".<ref>{{H|Flies}}</ref> In Fonstad's map the dwarves left the path to the right. (Corrected in 2nd edition.)
*Page 113: The leader of the goblins is named "Borg". It should be [[Bolg]],<ref name="Burst"/> which is twice printed correctly on the preceding page. (Corrected in 2nd edition.)
*Page 125: The map of [[Bree]] and the surrounding towns, [[Combe]] is shown laying to the northwest of [[Staddle]] on the east side of the [[Bree-hill]], while in fact Combe should lie a little east of Staddle's location.<ref>{{FR|Sign}}</ref>
*Page 135: In the map of [[Orthanc]], the last peak is named "Mathedras" instead of "[[Methedras]]".
*Page 148: [[Gamling|Gamling the Old]] is called "Gambling the Old".
*Page 189: The language of the [[Dwarves]] is labeled "[[Khazâd]]" instead of [[Khuzdul]].

The usage of early concepts of the ''[[The Book of Lost Tales Part One]]'' alongside the established [[canon]], are also arguably controversial. In [[Aman]], Fonstad identified the early name "[[Hanstovánen]]" and also she points out the dwellings of the [[Valar]] in [[Valinor]]. The same happens with [[Tol Eressëa]] whose (tentative) maps portray [[Tavrobel]] and [[Kortirion]] as well as some places in [[Gondolin]].

==Post-publication Canon==
Since the ''Atlas'' was published before the publication of the final three volumes of ''The History of Middle-earth'' and did not take Tolkien's [[The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien|letters]] into account, her maps bear some contradictions to later established canon concerning Middle-earth's geography.
*Page viii: [[Middle-earth]] dominates much of the northern hemisphere of [[Arda]] [[Changing of the World|made round]], with [[Forochel]] being high in the polar regions of the world and [[Umbar]] laying more than halfway southward between the northern pole and the [[Girdle of Arda|equator]].
**In [[Letter 294]], Tolkien confirms that [[Hobbiton]] is intended to be at the latitude of [[wikipedia:Oxford|Oxford]], with [[Minas Tirith]] 600 miles south being near to the latitude of [[wikipedia:Florence|Florence]]. With this information, it is clear that Middle-earth would be hardly as large as it appears on the ''Atlas'' map of a round Arda.
*Pages 4 - 5: The [[Sea of Helcar]] is seen to cover the area of future [[Mordor]], [[Khand]], and [[Rhûn]], and the [[Sea of Rhûn]] and [[Sea of Núrnen]] are shown as its remnants. The [[Orocarni]] in the East are approximately 800 to 1700 miles away from the [[Misty Mountains]].
**In ''[[The Peoples of Middle-earth]]'', there are references to the Sea of Rhûn existing in the [[First Age]], as well as the forest to its northeast and the hills to its southwest, indicating that it must be separate from the Sea of Helcar.
** ''The Peoples of Middle-earth'' also indicates that the distance between the Orocarni in the East and the Misty Mountains, specifically [[Gundabad]], was said to be as great or greater than that of Gundabad's distance to the [[Blue Mountains]] in the West.<ref>{{PM|Dwarves}}</ref>
*Pages 38 - 39: The western shores of [[Lindon]] and the [[Ethir Anduin]] are shown to exist in the [[Second Age]] of the world as they did in the [[Third Age]].
**''The Peoples of Middle-earth'' tells that during the [[Akallabêth|Downfall of Númenor]], Lindon lost much land to the advancing shores, while the eastern and southern portions of the [[Bay of Belfalas]] retreated back, putting the city of [[Pelargir]], which had been only a few miles from the coast, much farther inland.

{{References}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:Atlas of Middle-earth, The}}
{{title|italics}}
[[Category:Map books]]
[[Category:Publications by title]]