Tolkien Gateway - User contributions [en]

Celeborn

2015-09-27T14:55:10Z

84.125.23.220: See Talk section (The Road Goes Ever On is canon, UT is not)

{{cleanup}}{{sources}}
{{disambig-two|the Lord of Lórien|the Tree|[[Celeborn (White Tree)]]}}
{{elves infobox
| image=[[File:Ebe Kastein - Celeborn.jpg|250px]]
| name=Celeborn
| pronun=
| othernames=[[Telerin|T.]] ''[[Teleporno]]''
| titles=Lord of [[Lothlórien|Lórien]]
| position=
| location=[[Doriath]] [[Lindon]] [[Eregion]] [[Lothlórien]]
| affiliation=[[Gwaith-i-Mírdain]]
| language=[[Sindarin]], [[Westron]]
| birth=Uncertain, see [[#Controversy|below]]
| birthlocation=
| rule=
| sailedwest=Early [[Fourth Age]]
| sailedfrom=[[Grey Havens]]
| age=
| notablefor=
| house=
| parentage=Unclear ([[#Controversy|see below]])
| siblings=Unclear ([[#Controversy|see below]])
| spouse=[[Galadriel]]
| children=[[Celebrían]], [[Amroth]]<ref>{{UT|Galadriel}}</ref> (earlier version)
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=Silver, long<ref name="Mirror">{{FR|Mirror}}</ref>
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=
| steed=
}}

'''Celeborn''' ([[Sindarin|S]]: "silver-tall", pron. {{IPA|[ˈkeleborn]}}) was a noble [[Elves|Elf]] - a member of the [[Sindar]]<ref>{{RGEO|Notes}}</ref> - who wedded [[Galadriel]] of the [[Noldor]]. After crossing the Blue Mountains at the beginning of the Second Age and living in the realm of [[Eregion]] for a while, he and Galadriel moved to [[Lothlórien]] to become the [[Lord of Lórien|Lord and Lady of Lórien]]. His daughter [[Celebrían]] married [[Elrond]] Half-elven whose daughter [[Arwen]] chose a mortal life to wed [[Aragorn]].

==History==
===Early life===
Celeborn was a [[Sindar|Sindarin]] prince from [[Doriath]], the grandson of [[Elmo]] (the brother of [[Thingol|Elwe/Thingol]])<ref name="Sil-13">{{S|13}}</ref> There has been many debates about his origins and early life. See ''[[#Controversy|Controversy]]''.

===First Age===
[[File:Līga Kļaviņa - Love at First Sight.jpg|left|thumb|Līga Kļaviņa - ''Love at First Sight'']]
In the early [[Years of the Sun]] Finrod and [[Galadriel]] came to Doriath as guests of [[Elu Thingol]], the King of Doriath. There Celeborn and Galadriel met, fell in love and were wedded. Galadriel remained in Doriath with Celeborn after [[Finrod]] went to the [[Caverns of Narog]] to establish the stronghold of [[Nargothrond]]. <ref name="Sil-13"/>

For the rest of the [[First Age]] Celeborn and Galadriel are not mentioned to have played any significant role in the general course of events of the Age, while their relatives, both Sindarin and Noldorin did. The only thing that can be said for sure, is that the couple survived the [[Wars of Beleriand]], including the [[Sack of Doriath]] by the [[Sons of Feanor]]<ref>{{S|24}}</ref>. They may have escaped to the [[Havens of Sirion|Havens]] or the [[Isle of Balar]].

===Second Age===
After the [[War of wrath|fall of Beleriand]], Celeborn and Galadriel came to [[Lindon]] the coastal region west of the Blue Mountains. Celeborn ruled the fief of [[Harlindon]], which was composed mostly of Sindar, under the [[Gil-galad|High King Gil-galad]].<ref>{{PM|X}}</ref> They eventually came to [[Eregion]] where they dwelt for a time with [[Celebrimbor]] and the jewelsmiths of [[Gwaith-i-Mírdain]]. After Celebrimbor had largely taken over, they made contact with the [[Nandor]] of Lindórinand, across the [[Hithaeglir]]. Not long after they went through [[Moria|Khazad-dûm]] to live there, becoming great among its people.

It is said that Celeborn fought in the [[Sack of Eregion]], and he and [[Elrond]] narrowly escaped to a dell, where the latter founded [[Rivendell]].<ref name="GC"/>

After the Sack of Eregion, Celeborn and Galadriel came to Lindórinand, the land of [[Silvan Elves]] which was ruled by King [[Amdir]]. When Amdir died in the [[Battle of Dagorlad]], his son [[Amroth]] succeeded him.

===Third Age===
In early Third Age Amroth was weary of Middle-earth and wished to sail to the [[Valinor|West]]. He departed to [[Edhellond]] and by the year {{TA|1981}}, King Amroth drowned in the Bay of Belfalas. Celeborn and Galadriel took the title [[Lord and Lady of Galadhrim|Lord and Lady]] of Lothlórien, the new name for Lindórinand and together they built [[Caras Galadhon]].

Celeborn and Galadriel had a daughter named [[Celebrían]],<ref group=note>Celebrían's exact date and place of birth are not specified.</ref> who later married [[Elrond]] Half-elven of [[Rivendell]], thus making Celeborn and his wife Galadriel the grandparents of the twins [[Elladan]] and [[Elrohir]] and their younger sister [[Arwen|Arwen Undómiel]].
[[File:Rowena Morrill - The Swan-Boat of Galadriel.jpg|thumb|left|Rowena Morrill - ''The Swan-Boat of Galadriel'']]
In response to the growing threat of [[Dol Guldur]], the [[White Council]] was formed in {{TA|2463}}. Galadriel was on it; it is likely that Celeborn was also a member.

During the [[War of the Ring]] in {{TA|3019}}, Lórien received the [[Fellowship of the Ring]], composed of various travelers on the [[Quest of the Ring|quest]] to destroy [[the One Ring]]. He offered advice, and boats for the [[Anduin]], speeding them on their way.

Celeborn's most significant recorded actions came in the same year (in March 3019), when he repulsed three attacks by [[orcs]] of [[Dol Guldur]]. Celeborn then marshalled his forces to cross the Anduin and [[Fall of Dol Guldur|lay siege to Dol Guldur]]. He captured the fortress, and Galadriel threw down its walls and purified it.

===After the War of the Ring===
Celeborn attended the wedding of [[Aragorn|King Elessar]] and his granddaughter [[Arwen]], and on the journey to return bade a fond farewell to [[Treebeard]] as well.

{{quote|I do not think we shall meet again." "I do not know, Eldest.|[[Treebeard]] and Celeborn, ''[[Many Partings]]''}}.

Celeborn returned to Lothlórien, but the power of [[Nenya]] was broken. It no longer was filled with the light and life it had before. Galadriel shortly after passed West with the other [[Ring-bearers]], and Celeborn, weary, moved to Imladris to live with [[Elladan]] and [[Elrohir]], Elrond’s sons. After [[Círdan]]'s departure Celeborn was the last of the [[Wise]] in Middle-earth, they that had seen the struggles of [[Elves|Elvenkind]]. It is not recorded when he sought the [[Grey Havens]] and sailed west, but when he did so he took with him the last memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth[[#References|7]].

==Character==
What can be gleaned of his personality is that he was quick-thinking and swift to act, one of the wisest elves of Middle-earth in the Third Age. He was a warrior too, leading his followers into battle against [[Dol Guldur]] and other menaces.

==Other Versions of the Legendarium==
According to an alternate history of Celeborn and Galadriel in [[Unfinished Tales]], Celeborn was a [[Teler]] of noble rank in [[Alqualondë]], born '''[[Teleporno]]''', grandson of [[Olwë]], King of the [[Falmari]].<ref name="GC">{{UT|6}}</ref><ref name="Shib">{{PM|Shibboleth}}</ref>

[[Galadriel|Artanis]], Olwë's granddaughter and a [[Noldor]]in princess of great beauty, often spent long visits to Alqualondë and her mother’s kin. During this time the two fell in love, and Teleporno gave her the romantic epithet ''[[Alatáriel]]'', meaning "Maiden Crowned with Radiant Garland".<ref name="Shib"/> Teleporno's name gained an additional [[Quenya]] form, '''[[Telporno]]''' (pron. {{IPA|[telˈporno]}}).

Later, Teleporno and Artanis helped to defend Alqualondë from the Noldor during the [[Kinslaying at Alqualondë|First Kinslaying]]. Nevertheless, Artanis’s heart was fired by the stories of [[Fëanor]] of the open lands across the [[Belegaer|sea]]. She urged Teleporno to take a ship eastward to [[Endor]], and he gave in. In doing so the two fell under the [[Ban of the Valar]].

In [[Beleriand]], Teleporno and Artanis were greeted by [[Thingol|Elu Thingol]], High King of the [[Sindar]] and Lord of [[Doriath]]. Teleporno eventually [[Sindarin]]ized his name to Celeborn; Artanis Sindarinized the epithet Celeborn had given her, and Alatáriel became Galadriel.

==Controversy==
Up to the time when ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' was published, there had been no mention of Celeborn in the previously written legendarium. [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]] later attempted multiple times to fix upon the story behind such an important elf. He remains a fairly unsubstantial character in the legendarium, for despite his profound effect upon the doings of the Elder Days, there is very little direct information on him as a person.

In his first writings (which make up the bulk of the matter of Celeborn)and the works published during Tolkien's lifetime, the elf-lord is portrayed as a kinsman of Thingol and one of the Sindar,<ref>{{App|B1}}</ref><ref>{{RGEO|Notes}}</ref> and met Galadriel when she came with the Noldor into exile. This was the approach chosen by [[Christopher Tolkien]] and [[Guy Gavriel Kay]] for ''[[The Silmarillion]]''. In a brief, speculative paper written by Tolkien included in ''[[Unfinished Tales]]'', Celeborn is made Thingol’s grandnephew, by the King’s brother [[Elmo]]. Elmo, also linked to Círdan, appears nowhere else in the legendarium.

A Sindarin origin as Elmo's grandson has been the most widely accepted one of all, but Celeborn as a Telerin prince seems a late development. It's unknown whether Tolkien would have revised the story or would have felt bound by published writings.

In Tolkien's last writings Celeborn is a [[Falmari]]n Elf from Valinor, then named Teleporno in [[Telerin]].<ref>{{PM|Shibboleth}}, pp. 347, 364 (note 46)</ref> The name Teleporno was then "[[Sindarization|Sindarized]]" as Celeborn. In this account Celeborn is stated to have been a grandson of the Telerin king Olwë, so that he still was a kinsman of the Sindarin king Thingol.<ref name="GC"/>

This altered origin was not adopted into the published Silmarillion, primarily because it contradicted canon and was not incorporated in Tolkien's drafts of the earlier parts, and therefore would have necessitated a major rewrite by C. Tolkien and Kay to account for a separate departure of Galadriel.

''“On the other hand, the making of Celeborn into a Telerin Elf of Aman contradicts not only statements in The Silmarillion, but also those cited already from The Road Goes Ever On and Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings”'' - [[Christopher Tolkien]], [[Unfinished Tales]]

A further problem was that this descent would have made the couple first or second cousin (assuming that he was still to be considered closely related to Thingol), and Elves never married close kin.

However, in the [[Morgoth's Ring]] it is stated that the first cousins might marry, but seldom did so, or desired to do so.<ref>{{MR|Laws}}</ref>

==Etymology==
{{Pronounce|Celeborn.mp3|Ardamir}}
''Celeborn'' is a [[Sindarin]] name, consisting of ''[[celeb]]'' ("silver") + a derivative of ''[[ornā]]'' ("tall"). ''Teleporno'', his original [[Telerin]] name, has an identical meaning. The name Teleporno was "Sindarized" as ''Celeborn'': [[Telerin]] ''[[telepi|telpe]]'' ("silver") (Quenya ''[[telpe|tyelpe]]'') was transformed to Sindarin ''celeb''.<ref>{{UT|6e}}</ref>

He was given the epithet "the Wise" by Galadriel in ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''.

==Portrayal in adaptations==
{{Gallery
|title=Celeborn in adaptations
|height=150
|width=250
|lines=2
|File:Angus McBride - Celeborn.jpg|Celeborn in ''[[Middle-earth: The Wizards]]''
|File:The Lord of the Rings (1978 film) - Celeborn.jpg|Celeborn in [[The Lord of the Rings (1978 film)|''The Lord of the Rings'' (1978 film)]]
|File:The Lord of the Rings (film series) - Celeborn 2.jpg|Celeborn in [[The Lord of the Rings (film series)|''The Lord of the Rings'' (film series)]]
|File:The Lord of the Rings The Fellowship of the Ring (video game) - Celeborn.jpg|Celeborn in [[The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring (video game)|''The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring'' (video game)]]
|File:The Lord of the Rings Online - Celeborn.jpg|Celeborn in ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]''
}}

'''1978: ''[[The Lord of the Rings (1978 film)|The Lord of the Rings]]'':'''
:Celeborn only has a brief, role and speaks only one line. He appeared beside [[Galadriel]] for a brief shot.

'''1981: ''[[The Lord of the Rings (1981 radio series)|The Lord of the Rings]]'''''
:Celeborn was voiced by [[Simon Cadell]]. Unusually, virtually the whole dialogue Celeborn speaks in the book is utilised in the radio adaptation.

'''2001: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring]]'':'''
:Celeborn is played by [[Marton Csokas]]. The role was extremely small in the theatrical version, but expanded slightly in the Extended Edition of ''The Fellowship of the Ring''. In that version, he participates in giving gifts to the Fellowship as they are leaving Lórien. Notably, he gives [[Aragorn]] a dagger and warns him of the dangers the Fellowship will face while sailing down the [[Anduin]].

'''2002: [[The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring (video game)|''The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring'' (video game)]]:'''
:Celeborn makes a brief appearance in Lothlorien.

'''2003: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King]]'':'''
:Celeborn leaves for Valinor with Galadriel and the other Ringbearers, rather than remaining behind as in the book.

'''2006: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth II]]'':'''
:Celeborn only appears during the "Evil" campaign, when is he is slain by the Forces of Sauron.

'''2007-: ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]'':'''
:Celeborn can be found alongside Galadriel on a main talan in [[Caras Galadhon]]. He is involved in various storylines, including negotiations with the Dwarves of the Iron Hill Garrison and organization of a military assault against [[Dol Guldur]] in [[Mirkwood]].

==See also==
*[[:Category:Images of Celeborn|Images of Celeborn]]

{{references|notes}}
* ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'', [[The Lord of the Rings Appendices|Appendices]] [[Appendix A|A]] and [[Appendix B|B]]
* ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'', ''[[The Lord of the Rings Prologue|Prologue]]''

[[Category:Characters in The Lord of the Rings]]
[[Category:Characters in The Silmarillion]]
[[Category:Falmari]]
[[Category:Sindar]]
[[Category:First Age characters]]
[[Category:Second Age characters]]
[[Category:Third Age characters]]
[[Category:Fourth Age characters]]
[[Category:Sindarin names]]
[[de:Celeborn (Elb)]]
[[fr:encyclo:personnages:elfes:teleri:sindar:celeborn]]
[[fi:Celeborn]]

Talk:Orodreth

2014-06-04T19:47:16Z

84.125.23.220:

==Move==
Move to Orodreth? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 20:05, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

:Yes. And before you start asking, [[Finduilas|Finduilas of Nargothrond]] too. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 20:10, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

==Silmarillion vs. Late notes==

Why was my revision, which placed the genealogy from Silmarillion above the later one, removed?
There was nothing factually wrong in it. And it's completely arbitrary to use as main source the later notes, giving a version of the story that wasn't introduced in any narrative and it's pretty much obscure. Not to mention the confusion for readers.
Following the same logic, you should change as well the article about Finrod Felagund and state that he was married, because that's what the last notes on the matter say (HoME vol. XII: "On Dwarves and Men", "The Shibboleth of Fëanor"), even when this contradicts everything that is said in the main narratives.
The question is, why is given preference to quickly written notes (that we don't even know if were definitive or not) over the big bulk of narratives that is extant? That would require that all references to the making of the Sun and the Moon are removed as well from the articles, because that's what the last notes on the matter say. But what's the point of talking about the stories that "could" have been, but never were? We would be talking about a fictional book that was never written. {{unsigned|95.22.94.140 }}

:It was reverted because the intro that does not comply with [[Tolkien Gateway:Manual of Style|the Manual of Style]]. That you left a link to "Elf (Middle-earth)" in there is a dead giveaway you just copied if off wikipedia . Also, no not mess with headers. It may need a rewrite to comply with our new ideas towards canon, but that doesn't mean we have to accept everything that's added. --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 17:38, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

No, it wasn't just "copied off" from Wikipedia. It was me the one who edited the Wikipedia article, following some complaints precisely about this issue in that page. In fact, the original article in this page was an obvious copy of the original article in Wikipedia, that followed all that "Orodreth son of Angrod" version, so that's not an excuse. And what has to do the style with the content? Just because there's a wrong link doesn't mean that the content is wrong. {{unsigned|95.22.94.140}}

:Even if you wrote the text on wikipedia, it's still not okay to just paste it here without bothering about markup. We have entirely different ways of linking, different headers, different rules concerning in-universe writing, different templates.

:Admittedly, a lot of stuff was copied in the early days. Not all of it has been cleaned up. But that doesn't mean content should still be copied. --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 18:58, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

==Orodreth's Quenya names==

The article says that the Quenya name of Orodreth in the published Silmarillion is Artanáro. However, I can't find that name being mentioned in the book. Where is it? Besides, if the last Quenya name proposed by Tolkien was Artaher (with Artaresto being just a passing variation), shouldn't be Artaher the name that appears in the infobox and main text?--[[Special:Contributions/84.125.23.220|84.125.23.220]] 17:05, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
::The name Artanáro is not mentioned in the published Silmarillion. In the appendix "Elements in Quenya and Sindarin Names" there are mentioned Fëanáro and Aikanáro (plus Findaráto and Angaráto) but not Artanáro. The development of the name and also of the descendance of the person itself is quite complicated, and I think it should be addressed more profoundly, noticing clearly the differences between the story taken into the published Silmarillion by CJRT (known to the majority of the readers) and the further development of the story only found in the pages of the HoME, leading from Artanáro (also one of the possible names of Gil-galad) to Artaresto/Rodreth/Orodreth to Artaher/Arothir, and from being the son of Finarfin to being the son of Angrod. --Tik 15:54, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

:::Then, if Artanáro is never mentioned in The Silmarillion, the line that says so is misleading. In my opinion, the development of the genealogy of Orodreth and Gil-galad is clear enough already. What seems confusing are the Quenya names: first Artanáro, then Artaresto and finally Artaher. Maybe it would be good to cite all three names in one of the sub-sections to see the development of the character, but leave the last one (Artaher) for the introduction and infobox. The Sindarin names are probably less confusing; the article says that, even if Tolkien proposed the Sindarin name Arothir later, is likely that "Orodreth" would have been kept as the main name.--[[Special:Contributions/84.125.23.220|84.125.23.220]] 19:47, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Orodreth

2014-06-04T19:46:37Z

84.125.23.220:

==Move==
Move to Orodreth? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 20:05, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

:Yes. And before you start asking, [[Finduilas|Finduilas of Nargothrond]] too. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 20:10, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

==Silmarillion vs. Late notes==

Why was my revision, which placed the genealogy from Silmarillion above the later one, removed?
There was nothing factually wrong in it. And it's completely arbitrary to use as main source the later notes, giving a version of the story that wasn't introduced in any narrative and it's pretty much obscure. Not to mention the confusion for readers.
Following the same logic, you should change as well the article about Finrod Felagund and state that he was married, because that's what the last notes on the matter say (HoME vol. XII: "On Dwarves and Men", "The Shibboleth of Fëanor"), even when this contradicts everything that is said in the main narratives.
The question is, why is given preference to quickly written notes (that we don't even know if were definitive or not) over the big bulk of narratives that is extant? That would require that all references to the making of the Sun and the Moon are removed as well from the articles, because that's what the last notes on the matter say. But what's the point of talking about the stories that "could" have been, but never were? We would be talking about a fictional book that was never written. {{unsigned|95.22.94.140 }}

:It was reverted because the intro that does not comply with [[Tolkien Gateway:Manual of Style|the Manual of Style]]. That you left a link to "Elf (Middle-earth)" in there is a dead giveaway you just copied if off wikipedia . Also, no not mess with headers. It may need a rewrite to comply with our new ideas towards canon, but that doesn't mean we have to accept everything that's added. --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 17:38, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

No, it wasn't just "copied off" from Wikipedia. It was me the one who edited the Wikipedia article, following some complaints precisely about this issue in that page. In fact, the original article in this page was an obvious copy of the original article in Wikipedia, that followed all that "Orodreth son of Angrod" version, so that's not an excuse. And what has to do the style with the content? Just because there's a wrong link doesn't mean that the content is wrong. {{unsigned|95.22.94.140}}

:Even if you wrote the text on wikipedia, it's still not okay to just paste it here without bothering about markup. We have entirely different ways of linking, different headers, different rules concerning in-universe writing, different templates.

:Admittedly, a lot of stuff was copied in the early days. Not all of it has been cleaned up. But that doesn't mean content should still be copied. --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 18:58, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

==Orodreth's Quenya names==

The article says that the Quenya name of Orodreth in the published Silmarillion is Artanáro. However, I can't find that name being mentioned in the book. Where is it? Besides, if the last Quenya name proposed by Tolkien was Artaher (with Artaresto being just a passing variation), shouldn't be Artaher the name that appears in the infobox and main text?--[[Special:Contributions/84.125.23.220|84.125.23.220]] 17:05, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
::The name Artanáro is not mentioned in the published Silmarillion. In the appendix "Elements in Quenya and Sindarin Names" there are mentioned Fëanáro and Aikanáro (plus Findaráto and Angaráto) but not Artanáro. The development of the name and also of the descendance of the person itself is quite complicated, and I think it should be addressed more profoundly, noticing clearly the differences between the story taken into the published Silmarillion by CJRT (known to the majority of the readers) and the further development of the story only found in the pages of the HoME, leading from Artanáro (also one of the possible names of Gil-galad) to Artaresto/Rodreth/Orodreth to Artaher/Arothir, and from being the son of Finarfin to being the son of Angrod. --Tik 15:54, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
:::Then, if Artanáro is never mentioned in The Silmarillion, the line that says so is misleading. In my opinion, the development of the genealogy of Orodreth and Gil-galad is clear enough already. What seems confusing are the Quenya names: first Artanáro, then Artaresto and finally Artaher. Maybe it would be good to cite all three names in one of the sub-sections to see the development of the character, but leave the last one (Artaher) for the introduction and infobox. The Sindarin names are probably less confusing; the article says that, even if Tolkien proposed the Sindarin name Arothir later, is likely that "Orodreth" would have been kept as the main name.

Talk:Orodreth

2014-06-03T17:05:40Z

84.125.23.220:

Amras

2014-06-02T15:27:39Z

84.125.23.220: hair colour (the elder twin had the darker hair)

{{sources}}
{{noldor infobox
| image=[[Image:Jenny Dolfen - Amrod and Amras, sons of Feanor.jpg|250px]]
| name=Amras
| pronun=
| othernames= ''[[Pityafinwë]]'' ([[Quenya|Q]], [[Father-name|fn]]);''[[Ambarussa]]'' ([[Quenya|Q]], [[Amilessë|mn]])
| titles=
| position=
| location=[[Tirion]]
| affiliation=[[Oath of Fëanor]]
| language=[[Quenya]]
| birth=during [[Years of the Trees]]
| birthlocation=[[Tirion]]
| rule=
| death={{FA|538}}
| deathlocation=[[Third Kinslaying]] at the [[Mouths of Sirion|Havens of Sirion]]
| age=
| notablefor=
| house=[[House of Fëanor]]
| parentage=[[Fëanor]] & [[Nerdanel]]
| siblings=[[Maedhros]], [[Maglor]], [[Celegorm]], [[Caranthir]], [[Curufin]] and [[Amrod]] (twin)
| spouse=
| children=
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=Dark red
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=
| steed=
}} '''Amras''' and his twin brother [[Amrod]] were the youngest sons of [[Fëanor]]. Through their mother [[Nerdanel]] they inherited red hair (probably a dark red), instead of Fëanor's black.

==History==

He, like his brothers, participated in the [[Flight of the Noldor]]. He was deeply attached to his twin, and both called one another "''[[Ambarussa]]''" (see below). After his brother's death in the Ships of the [[Teleri]] at [[Losgar]], according to the ''[[Shibboleth of Fëanor]]'', he dared speak against his father, and was the last to do so.

{{quote|In the morning the host was mustered, but of Fëanor's seven sons only six were to be found. Then Ambarussa went pale with fear. 'Did you not then rouse Ambarussa my brother (whom you called Ambarto?' he said. 'He would not come ashore to sleep (he said) in discomfort.' But it is thought (and no doubt Fëanor had guessed this also) that it was in the mind of Ambarto to sail his ship back [?afterwards] and rejoin Nerdanel; for he had been much [?shocked] by the deed of his father. That ship I destroyed first,' said Fëanor (hiding his own dismay). 'Then rightly you gave the name to the youngest of your children,' said Ambarussa, 'And ''Umbarto'' "the Fated" was its true form. Fell and fey are you become.' And after that no one dared to speak again to Fëanor of this matter.|''[[The Shibboleth of Fëanor]]''}}

After Fëanor's death he dwelt in the wide plains of [[East Beleriand]] and was known as a great hunter. He died during the attack made by the Sons of Fëanor on the [[Mouths of Sirion|Havens of Sirion]]

== Etymology ==
Amras' [[father-name]] was '''[[Pityafinwë]]''', or "Little Finwë", as he was the second youngest of the [[House of Finwë]]. The short form of his name was [[Pityo]], "Little One". His [[Amilessë|mother-name]] was '''[[Ambarussa]]''' ("top-russet", referring to his hair). His twin Amrod shared the same mother-name for a time (see ''[[Amrod]]'' for further information).

The name ''Amras'' is the Sindarin version of ''Ambarussa''.

In later notes found in ''[[The Peoples of Middle-earth]]'', Tolkien mentions that he wished to change the name to ''[[Amros]]'' because of linguistic issues. While this occured late in life, and there are no known manuscripts written later that contradict this, its canonicity is in dispute.

== Genealogy ==
Names shown in ''italics'' are females.
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree| MHT | | MIR |y| FIN |y| IND | | | | | | | | | | | | |MHT=[[Mahtan]]| MIR=''[[Míriel]]''|FIN=[[Finwë]]|IND=''[[Indis]]''}}
{{familytree| |!| | | | | |!| | | |)|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|.| | | |}}
{{familytree| NRD |~|y|~| FEA | | FDS | | FNG | | IRM | | FRF | | |NRD=''[[Nerdanel]]''|FEA=[[Fëanor]]|FDS=''[[Findis]]''|FNG=[[Fingolfin]]|IRM=''[[Írimë]]''|FRF=[[Finarfin]]}}
{{familytree| |,|-|-|^|v|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|.| |}}
{{familytree| MDH | | MAG | | CEL | | CAR | | CUR | | AMD | | AMR |MDH=[[Maedhros]]|MAG=[[Maglor]]|CEL=[[Celegorm]]|CAR=[[Caranthir]]|CUR=[[Curufin]]|AMD=[[Amrod]]|AMR='''AMRAS'''}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |!| | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | CLB | | | | | | | | |CLB=[[Celebrimbor]]}}
{{familytree/end}}

== References ==

* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Flight of the Noldor]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Return of the Noldor]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of Beleriand and its Realms]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Noldor in Beleriand]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Ruin of Doriath]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath]]
* ''[[The Book of Lost Tales Part Two]]'', [[The Nauglafring]]
* ''[[The Shaping of Middle-earth]]'', [[The Earliest Annals of Valinor]]
* ''[[The Shaping of Middle-earth]]'', [[The Earliest Annals of Beleriand]]
* ''[[The Lost Road and Other Writings]]'', [[The later Annals of Beleriand]]
* ''[[The Lost Road and Other Writings]]'', [[The later Annals of Valinor]]
* ''[[The Lost Road and Other Writings]]'', [[Quenta Silmarillion]]
* ''[[The Lost Road and Other Writings]]'', [[The Etymologies]]
* ''[[Morgoth's Ring]]'', [[The Annals of Aman]]
* ''[[Morgoth's Ring]]'', [[The Later Quenta Silmarillion]]
* ''[[The War of the Jewels]]'', [[The Grey Annals]]
* ''[[The War of the Jewels]]'', [[The Later Quenta Silmarillion]]
* ''[[The Peoples of Middle-earth]]'', [[The Shibboleth of Feanor]]

==See Also==
*[[:Category:Images of Amras|Images of Amras]]
[[Category:Characters in The Silmarillion]]
[[Category:Sons of Fëanor]]
[[Category:Years of the Trees characters]]
[[Category:Sindarin names]]
[[Category:First Age characters]]
[[de:Amras]]
[[fr:encyclo/personnages/elfes/noldor/amras]]
[[fi:Amras]]

Amrod

2014-06-02T15:25:30Z

84.125.23.220: hair colour (the elder twin had the darker hair)

{{noldor infobox
| image=[[Image:Jenny Dolfen - Amrod and Amras, sons of Feanor.jpg|250px]]
| name=Amrod
| pronun=
| othernames=''[[Telufinwë]]'' ([[Quenya|Q]], [[Father-name|fn]]), ''[[Ambarussa]]'' or ''[[Umbarto]]/[[Ambarto]]'' ([[Quenya|Q]], [[Amilessë|mn]])
| titles=
| position=
| location=[[Tirion]]; [[East Beleriand]]
| affiliation=[[Oath of Fëanor]]
| language=[[Quenya]] and [[Sindarin]]
| birth=during [[Years of the Trees]]
| birthlocation=[[Tirion]]
| rule=
| death=[[Years of the Trees|Y.T.]] [[Years of the Trees 1497|1497]]
| deathlocation=[[Losgar]]
| age=
| notablefor=
| house=[[House of Fëanor]]
| parentage=[[Fëanor]] & [[Nerdanel]]
| siblings=[[Maedhros]], [[Maglor]], [[Celegorm]], [[Caranthir]], [[Curufin]] and [[Amras]] (twin)
| spouse=
| children=
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=Red
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=
| steed=
}}
'''Amrod''' ([[Years of the Trees]] – [[Y.T. 1497]]), with his twin brother [[Amras]], was the youngest of the seven [[Sons of Fëanor]].

==History==

He joined his brothers in the [[Oath of Fëanor]], but his mother Nerdanel begged that either he or Amras be left behind, believing in her heart that one would not return. Fëanor, however, refused her this kindness, and paid for it. Amrod was accidentally killed in the swan ships of the [[Teleri]] when his father ordered them to be burnt at [[Losgar]]. According to the ''[[Shibboleth]]'', he claimed (to Amras) to have felt uncomfortable sleeping on the ground after the Noldor landed on the [[Lammoth]]. It was thought later that he wished to return to his mother in the ship, being shocked by his father's deeds. Fëanor was probably aware of his dissention, and this may have been one of the elements of his decision to burn the ships even before all the food and stores had been got out. Yet he was in great dismay when he learned of his son's death, and doubtless remembered the foreboding words of his wife.

== Etymology ==
Amrod's [[father-name]] in [[Quenya]] was '''[[Telufinwë]]''', "Last [of] Finwë", for he was the last of the sons of the [[House of Finwë]] and its short form was ''Telvo''. His [[Amilessë|mother-name]] was originally '''[[Ambarussa]]''' ("Top-russet", referring to his hair), the same as his twin Amras, but Fëanor insisted that the twins ought to have different names and Nerdanel prophetically called him '''[[Umbarto]]''', "The Fated" (from ''[[umbar]]'' = "fate"). His father, disturbed by it, changed it to '''[[Ambarto]]''', "Upwards-exalted" (from ''[[amba]]'' = "upwards, top" and ''[[arta]]'' ="exalted", "lofty"). Nevertheless both twins called each other ''Ambarussa''.

Amrod is the [[Sindarization]] of ''[[Ambarto]]''.<ref>{{VT|41b}}</ref>

== Genealogy ==
Names shown in ''italics'' are females.
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree| MHT | | MIR |y| FIN |y| IND | | | | | | | | | | | | |MHT=[[Mahtan]]| MIR=''[[Míriel]]''|FIN=[[Finwë]]|IND=''[[Indis]]''}}
{{familytree| |!| | | | | |!| | | |)|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|.| | | |}}
{{familytree| NRD |~|y|~| FEA | | FDS | | FNG | | IRM | | FRF | | |NRD=''[[Nerdanel]]''|FEA=[[Fëanor]]|FDS=''[[Findis]]''|FNG=[[Fingolfin]]|IRM=''[[Írimë]]''|FRF=[[Finarfin]]}}
{{familytree| |,|-|-|^|v|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|.| |}}
{{familytree| MDH | | MAG | | CEL | | CAR | | CUR | | AMD | | AMR |MDH=[[Maedhros]]|MAG=[[Maglor]]|CEL=[[Celegorm]]|CAR=[[Caranthir]]|CUR=[[Curufin]]|AMD='''AMROD'''|AMR=[[Amras]]}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |!| | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | CLB | | | | | | | | |CLB=[[Celebrimbor]]}}
{{familytree/end}}
== Other Versions of the Legendarium ==

In the published ''[[The Silmarillion]]'' and in earlier texts he is said to have lived on to [[Beleriand]] and ruled with his twin Amras over lands west of the [[Blue Mountains]].

There is no trace of the death of Amrod at Losgar in the published ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', as it was a very late idea by [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]], omitted by [[Christopher Tolkien]] as he did not at the time see how it could be incorporated into the primary text of ''The Silmarillion''. Even in ''The Silmarillion'' his life, course and death happen alongside to his brother's and has not an individual role.

Where both Amrod and Amras are mentioned in the published text after the landing in Losgar, it should according to Tolkien's later wishes be Amras alone. The information regarding Amrod's naming, especially, comes from ''[[The Peoples of Middle-earth]]''.

== References ==
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Flight of the Noldor]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Return of the Noldor]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of Beleriand and its Realms]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Noldor in Beleriand]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Ruin of Doriath]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath]]
* ''[[The Book of Lost Tales Part Two]]'', [[The Nauglafring]]
* ''[[The Shaping of Middle-earth]]'', [[The Earliest Annals of Valinor]]
* ''[[The Shaping of Middle-earth]]'', [[The Earliest Annals of Beleriand]]
* ''[[The Lost Road and Other Writings]]'', [[The later Annals of Beleriand]]
* ''[[The Lost Road and Other Writings]]'', [[The later Annals of Valinor]]
* ''[[The Lost Road and Other Writings]]'', [[Quenta Silmarillion]]
* ''[[The Lost Road and Other Writings]]'', [[The Etymologies]]
* ''[[Morgoth's Ring]]'', [[The Annals of Aman]]
* ''[[Morgoth's Ring]]'', [[The Later Quenta Silmarillion]]
* ''[[The War of the Jewels]]'', [[The Grey Annals]]
* ''[[The War of the Jewels]]'', [[The Later Quenta Silmarillion]]
* ''[[The Peoples of Middle-earth]]'', [[The Shibboleth of Feanor]]

==See Also==
*[[:Category:Images of Amrod|Images of Amrod]]
[[Category:Characters in The Silmarillion]]
[[Category:Sons of Fëanor]]
[[Category:First Age characters]]
[[Category:Years of the Trees characters]]
[[Category:Sindarin names]]
[[de:Amrod]]
[[fr:encyclo/personnages/elfes/noldor/amrod]]
[[fi:Amrod]]

==References==
<references /><noinclude>
[[Category:Citation templates|{{PAGENAME}}]]</noinclude>

Amrod

2014-06-02T13:02:19Z

84.125.23.220: see talk page

{{noldor infobox
| image=[[Image:Jenny Dolfen - Amrod and Amras, sons of Feanor.jpg|250px]]
| name=Amrod
| pronun=
| othernames=''[[Telufinwë]]'' ([[Quenya|Q]], [[Father-name|fn]]), ''[[Ambarussa]]'' or ''[[Umbarto]]/[[Ambarto]]'' ([[Quenya|Q]], [[Amilessë|mn]])
| titles=
| position=
| location=[[Tirion]]; [[East Beleriand]]
| affiliation=[[Oath of Fëanor]]
| language=[[Quenya]] and [[Sindarin]]
| birth=during [[Years of the Trees]]
| birthlocation=[[Tirion]]
| rule=
| death=[[Years of the Trees|Y.T.]] [[Years of the Trees 1497|1497]]
| deathlocation=[[Losgar]]
| age=
| notablefor=
| house=[[House of Fëanor]]
| parentage=[[Fëanor]] & [[Nerdanel]]
| siblings=[[Maedhros]], [[Maglor]], [[Celegorm]], [[Caranthir]], [[Curufin]] and [[Amras]] (twin)
| spouse=
| children=
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=Dark red
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=
| steed=
}}
'''Amrod''' ([[Years of the Trees]] – [[Y.T. 1497]]), with his twin brother [[Amras]], was the youngest of the seven [[Sons of Fëanor]].

==History==

He joined his brothers in the [[Oath of Fëanor]], but his mother Nerdanel begged that either he or Amras be left behind, believing in her heart that one would not return. Fëanor, however, refused her this kindness, and paid for it. Amrod was accidentally killed in the swan ships of the [[Teleri]] when his father ordered them to be burnt at [[Losgar]]. According to the ''[[Shibboleth]]'', he claimed (to Amras) to have felt uncomfortable sleeping on the ground after the Noldor landed on the [[Lammoth]]. It was thought later that he wished to return to his mother in the ship, being shocked by his father's deeds. Fëanor was probably aware of his dissention, and this may have been one of the elements of his decision to burn the ships even before all the food and stores had been got out. Yet he was in great dismay when he learned of his son's death, and doubtless remembered the foreboding words of his wife.

== Etymology ==
Amrod's [[father-name]] in [[Quenya]] was '''[[Telufinwë]]''', "Last [of] Finwë", for he was the last of the sons of the [[House of Finwë]] and its short form was ''Telvo''. His [[Amilessë|mother-name]] was originally '''[[Ambarussa]]''' ("Top-russet", referring to his hair), the same as his twin Amras, but Fëanor insisted that the twins ought to have different names and Nerdanel prophetically called him '''[[Umbarto]]''', "The Fated" (from ''[[umbar]]'' = "fate"). His father, disturbed by it, changed it to '''[[Ambarto]]''', "Upwards-exalted" (from ''[[amba]]'' = "upwards, top" and ''[[arta]]'' ="exalted", "lofty"). Nevertheless both twins called each other ''Ambarussa''.

Amrod is the [[Sindarization]] of ''[[Ambarto]]''.<ref>{{VT|41b}}</ref>

== Genealogy ==
Names shown in ''italics'' are females.
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree| MHT | | MIR |y| FIN |y| IND | | | | | | | | | | | | |MHT=[[Mahtan]]| MIR=''[[Míriel]]''|FIN=[[Finwë]]|IND=''[[Indis]]''}}
{{familytree| |!| | | | | |!| | | |)|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|.| | | |}}
{{familytree| NRD |~|y|~| FEA | | FDS | | FNG | | IRM | | FRF | | |NRD=''[[Nerdanel]]''|FEA=[[Fëanor]]|FDS=''[[Findis]]''|FNG=[[Fingolfin]]|IRM=''[[Írimë]]''|FRF=[[Finarfin]]}}
{{familytree| |,|-|-|^|v|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|.| |}}
{{familytree| MDH | | MAG | | CEL | | CAR | | CUR | | AMD | | AMR |MDH=[[Maedhros]]|MAG=[[Maglor]]|CEL=[[Celegorm]]|CAR=[[Caranthir]]|CUR=[[Curufin]]|AMD='''AMROD'''|AMR=[[Amras]]}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |!| | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | CLB | | | | | | | | |CLB=[[Celebrimbor]]}}
{{familytree/end}}
== Other Versions of the Legendarium ==

In the published ''[[The Silmarillion]]'' and in earlier texts he is said to have lived on to [[Beleriand]] and ruled with his twin Amras over lands west of the [[Blue Mountains]].

There is no trace of the death of Amrod at Losgar in the published ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', as it was a very late idea by [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]], omitted by [[Christopher Tolkien]] as he did not at the time see how it could be incorporated into the primary text of ''The Silmarillion''. Even in ''The Silmarillion'' his life, course and death happen alongside to his brother's and has not an individual role.

Where both Amrod and Amras are mentioned in the published text after the landing in Losgar, it should according to Tolkien's later wishes be Amras alone. The information regarding Amrod's naming, especially, comes from ''[[The Peoples of Middle-earth]]''.

== References ==
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Flight of the Noldor]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Return of the Noldor]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of Beleriand and its Realms]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Noldor in Beleriand]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Ruin of Doriath]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath]]
* ''[[The Book of Lost Tales Part Two]]'', [[The Nauglafring]]
* ''[[The Shaping of Middle-earth]]'', [[The Earliest Annals of Valinor]]
* ''[[The Shaping of Middle-earth]]'', [[The Earliest Annals of Beleriand]]
* ''[[The Lost Road and Other Writings]]'', [[The later Annals of Beleriand]]
* ''[[The Lost Road and Other Writings]]'', [[The later Annals of Valinor]]
* ''[[The Lost Road and Other Writings]]'', [[Quenta Silmarillion]]
* ''[[The Lost Road and Other Writings]]'', [[The Etymologies]]
* ''[[Morgoth's Ring]]'', [[The Annals of Aman]]
* ''[[Morgoth's Ring]]'', [[The Later Quenta Silmarillion]]
* ''[[The War of the Jewels]]'', [[The Grey Annals]]
* ''[[The War of the Jewels]]'', [[The Later Quenta Silmarillion]]
* ''[[The Peoples of Middle-earth]]'', [[The Shibboleth of Feanor]]

==See Also==
*[[:Category:Images of Amrod|Images of Amrod]]
[[Category:Characters in The Silmarillion]]
[[Category:Sons of Fëanor]]
[[Category:First Age characters]]
[[Category:Years of the Trees characters]]
[[Category:Sindarin names]]
[[de:Amrod]]
[[fr:encyclo/personnages/elfes/noldor/amrod]]
[[fi:Amrod]]

==References==
<references /><noinclude>
[[Category:Citation templates|{{PAGENAME}}]]</noinclude>

Amras

2014-06-02T12:41:25Z

84.125.23.220: see talk in article "Amrod"

{{sources}}
{{noldor infobox
| image=[[Image:Jenny Dolfen - Amrod and Amras, sons of Feanor.jpg|250px]]
| name=Amras
| pronun=
| othernames= ''[[Pityafinwë]]'' ([[Quenya|Q]], [[Father-name|fn]]);''[[Ambarussa]]'' ([[Quenya|Q]], [[Amilessë|mn]])
| titles=
| position=
| location=[[Tirion]]
| affiliation=[[Oath of Fëanor]]
| language=[[Quenya]]
| birth=during [[Years of the Trees]]
| birthlocation=[[Tirion]]
| rule=
| death={{FA|538}}
| deathlocation=[[Third Kinslaying]] at the [[Mouths of Sirion|Havens of Sirion]]
| age=
| notablefor=
| house=[[House of Fëanor]]
| parentage=[[Fëanor]] & [[Nerdanel]]
| siblings=[[Maedhros]], [[Maglor]], [[Celegorm]], [[Caranthir]], [[Curufin]] and [[Amrod]] (twin)
| spouse=
| children=
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=Red
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=
| steed=
}} '''Amras''' and his twin brother [[Amrod]] were the youngest sons of [[Fëanor]]. Through their mother [[Nerdanel]] they inherited red hair (probably a dark red), instead of Fëanor's black.

==History==

He, like his brothers, participated in the [[Flight of the Noldor]]. He was deeply attached to his twin, and both called one another "''[[Ambarussa]]''" (see below). After his brother's death in the Ships of the [[Teleri]] at [[Losgar]], according to the ''[[Shibboleth of Fëanor]]'', he dared speak against his father, and was the last to do so.

{{quote|In the morning the host was mustered, but of Fëanor's seven sons only six were to be found. Then Ambarussa went pale with fear. 'Did you not then rouse Ambarussa my brother (whom you called Ambarto?' he said. 'He would not come ashore to sleep (he said) in discomfort.' But it is thought (and no doubt Fëanor had guessed this also) that it was in the mind of Ambarto to sail his ship back [?afterwards] and rejoin Nerdanel; for he had been much [?shocked] by the deed of his father. That ship I destroyed first,' said Fëanor (hiding his own dismay). 'Then rightly you gave the name to the youngest of your children,' said Ambarussa, 'And ''Umbarto'' "the Fated" was its true form. Fell and fey are you become.' And after that no one dared to speak again to Fëanor of this matter.|''[[The Shibboleth of Fëanor]]''}}

After Fëanor's death he dwelt in the wide plains of [[East Beleriand]] and was known as a great hunter. He died during the attack made by the Sons of Fëanor on the [[Mouths of Sirion|Havens of Sirion]]

== Etymology ==
Amras' [[father-name]] was '''[[Pityafinwë]]''', or "Little Finwë", as he was the second youngest of the [[House of Finwë]]. The short form of his name was [[Pityo]], "Little One". His [[Amilessë|mother-name]] was '''[[Ambarussa]]''' ("top-russet", referring to his hair). His twin Amrod shared the same mother-name for a time (see ''[[Amrod]]'' for further information).

The name ''Amras'' is the Sindarin version of ''Ambarussa''.

In later notes found in ''[[The Peoples of Middle-earth]]'', Tolkien mentions that he wished to change the name to ''[[Amros]]'' because of linguistic issues. While this occured late in life, and there are no known manuscripts written later that contradict this, its canonicity is in disput

== Genealogy ==
Names shown in ''italics'' are females.
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree| MHT | | MIR |y| FIN |y| IND | | | | | | | | | | | | |MHT=[[Mahtan]]| MIR=''[[Míriel]]''|FIN=[[Finwë]]|IND=''[[Indis]]''}}
{{familytree| |!| | | | | |!| | | |)|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|.| | | |}}
{{familytree| NRD |~|y|~| FEA | | FDS | | FNG | | IRM | | FRF | | |NRD=''[[Nerdanel]]''|FEA=[[Fëanor]]|FDS=''[[Findis]]''|FNG=[[Fingolfin]]|IRM=''[[Írimë]]''|FRF=[[Finarfin]]}}
{{familytree| |,|-|-|^|v|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|.| |}}
{{familytree| MDH | | MAG | | CEL | | CAR | | CUR | | AMD | | AMR |MDH=[[Maedhros]]|MAG=[[Maglor]]|CEL=[[Celegorm]]|CAR=[[Caranthir]]|CUR=[[Curufin]]|AMD=[[Amrod]]|AMR='''AMRAS'''}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |!| | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | CLB | | | | | | | | |CLB=[[Celebrimbor]]}}
{{familytree/end}}

== References ==

* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Flight of the Noldor]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Return of the Noldor]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of Beleriand and its Realms]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Noldor in Beleriand]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Ruin of Doriath]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath]]
* ''[[The Book of Lost Tales Part Two]]'', [[The Nauglafring]]
* ''[[The Shaping of Middle-earth]]'', [[The Earliest Annals of Valinor]]
* ''[[The Shaping of Middle-earth]]'', [[The Earliest Annals of Beleriand]]
* ''[[The Lost Road and Other Writings]]'', [[The later Annals of Beleriand]]
* ''[[The Lost Road and Other Writings]]'', [[The later Annals of Valinor]]
* ''[[The Lost Road and Other Writings]]'', [[Quenta Silmarillion]]
* ''[[The Lost Road and Other Writings]]'', [[The Etymologies]]
* ''[[Morgoth's Ring]]'', [[The Annals of Aman]]
* ''[[Morgoth's Ring]]'', [[The Later Quenta Silmarillion]]
* ''[[The War of the Jewels]]'', [[The Grey Annals]]
* ''[[The War of the Jewels]]'', [[The Later Quenta Silmarillion]]
* ''[[The Peoples of Middle-earth]]'', [[The Shibboleth of Feanor]]

==See Also==
*[[:Category:Images of Amras|Images of Amras]]
[[Category:Characters in The Silmarillion]]
[[Category:Sons of Fëanor]]
[[Category:Years of the Trees characters]]
[[Category:Sindarin names]]
[[Category:First Age characters]]
[[de:Amras]]
[[fr:encyclo/personnages/elfes/noldor/amras]]
[[fi:Amras]]

Talk:Amrod

2014-06-02T12:10:11Z

84.125.23.220:

See [[Talk:Amras]] - nikolet 21:51, 2 October 2007 (EDT)

== Ehm ... which version of name belongs with which version of the Legendarium? ==

As far as I can gather from [[The Shibboleth of Feanor]], in the version where one of the twins died in the Shipburning at Losgar, the one who died (remaining the younger twin with the fathername Telufinwë) was Umbarto/Ambarto, and Amrod, was the Sindarin form of Ambarto, the mothername applied to this twin. Subsequently, Tolkien substituted Amarthan, as the Sindarin form of Umbarto. Pityafinwë, 'Little Finwë' was certainly never used for Fëanor's youngest son, since that was the meaning of Telufinwë, 'Last Finwë'. Thus in this version of the Legendarium, '''Amrod''', changed to '''''Amarthan''''', was the Sindarin name of ''Ambarto/Umbarto'', with the fathername ''Telufinwë''.

Amrod certainly never was the Sindarin version of Pityo, nor was it the name of the twin that survived, and the name Ambarussa was shared by Amrod for a time, not the other way round.

So the article as it stands belongs rather under the title of Amras, or even Amros, with certain corrections to names.

See also [[Talk:Amras]] -- [[User:Mithrennaith|Mithrennaith]] 01:10, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
: According to commentary in HoME XII under the mother names on (p.353) and the note 62 (p. 366) Tolkien exchanged mother names of the twins and turned Ambarto into Umbarto to fit the legend: "It was then, no doubt, that my father changed the name Ambarto to Umbarto in the list and reversed the names of the twin brothers (see note 62), so that Ambarussa becomes the elder of the two and Ambarto/Umbarto the youngest of Fëanor's children, as he is in the legend told here." Thus the information of Amras being the fated twin burnt in Losgar seems to be correct. There is no information on exchanging Amros and Amras on father name list, as I understand only Ambarussa & Ambarto/Umbarto were exchaned, not father nor Sindarin names? [[User:Sirielle|Sirielle]]
::It is correct that no names were exchanged on the father-name list, but the Sindarin names are actually the translations/Sindarizations of the mother-names (with the exception of Curufin and the partial exception of Maedhros, which are not relevant here), as is also confirmed in [[Vinyar Tengwar #41]]. So exchanging the mother-names undoubtedly implies the exchanging of the Sindarin names, ''Ambarussa'' being Sindarized as ''Amros'', ''Ambarto'' being Sindarized/translated ''Amrod'' and ''Umbarto'' being translated ''Amarthan''. So it is certainly Amrod/Amarthan who was burnt. -- [[User:Mithrennaith|Mithrennaith]] 17:48, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
:::Following on my discovery of my misreading on [[Talk:Amras]], I feel prompted to explain further about the relationship between the Sindarin names (which are the ones most used) and the Quenya names (in this case the mothernames).
:::For it is by no means only in Vinyar Tengwar #41 that the origin of the Sindarin names of the Noldor as Sindarizations or translations of Quenya names is explained. It is found throughout ‘[[The Shibboleth of Fëanor]]’. In order, in the ''Note on Mother-names'', ¶3 Tolkien writes: <blockquote>The ‘true names’ remained the first two, but in later song and history any of the four might become the name generally used and recognized. The true names were not however forgotten by the scribes and loremasters or the poets, and they might often be introduced without comment. To this difficulty - as it proved to those who in later days tried to use and adapt Elvish traditions of the First Age as a background to the legends of their own heroes of that time and their descendants - was added the alteration of the Quenya names of the Ñoldor, after their settlement in Beleriand and adoption of the Sindarin tongue.</blockquote> In the following long note on ''The names of Finwe's descendants'', ¶4 he writes: <blockquote>The changes from the Quenya names of the Ñoldor to Sindarin forms when they settled in Beleriand in Middle-earth were on the other hand artificial and deliberate. They were made by the Ñoldor themselves. This was done because of the sensitiveness of the Eldar to languages and their styles. They felt it absurd and distasteful to call living persons who spoke Sindarin in daily life by names in quite a different linguistic mode.</blockquote> In Christopher’s editorial note on ''The names of the Sons of Fëanor'', he writes, before giving his father’s lists of (Quenya) father- and mothernames: <blockquote>There are many experimental etymological notes on the Eldarin words referring to red colour and copper, and on the names of the twin brothers, which are here omitted. In the first list I have added the Sindarin names for clarity.</blockquote>It is these experimental etymological notes that are largely given in VT #41. But from this it is also clear that the Sindarin names, included in the list of fathernames in [], were not there in Tolkien’s own text, but were added editorially by Christopher. Therefore, when Tolkien subsequently changed the order of the mother-names of the twins, he did not also change the order of the Sindarin names, simply because in his text they were not there. Christopher obviously saw no need to note that they should also be exchanged, because that did not in itself say anything about his father’s text. So no conclusions about the eventual order of the Sindarin names can be drawn from this. Then in the fifth paragraph of Christopher's explanation after the legend of the shipburning, he quotes his father as writing: <blockquote>All the sons save Curufin preferred their mother-names and were ever afterwards remembered by them. The twins called each other ''Ambarussa''. The name ''Ambarto/Umbarto'' was used by [?no one].</blockquote> Finally, in the last endnote, #65, Christopher writes about his father’s text: <blockquote>[The text ends with brief notes on the 'Sindarizing' of the Quenya names of the Sons of Feanor, but these are too rapid, elliptical, and illegible to be reproduced. It may be mentioned, however, ..... that the Sindarin form of ''Ambarussa'' (numbered 6, i.e. the elder twin) is here ''Amros'', not ''Amras''.]</blockquote> So, literally, ''Amras>Amros'' is the Sindarin form of ''Ambarussa''. On top of this, to the title of his editorial note on ''The names of the Sons of Fëanor'' Christopher adds: ''with the legend of the '''fate of Amrod'''''. So to him it was clear that it was Amrod who was burnt at Losgar, and that should make it as clear that ''Amrod'' is the Sindarin form of ''Ambarto''. Therefore, even without having access to VT #41, there should not be any doubt that swapping the mothernames of necessity leads to swapping of their Sindarin forms, which are the Sindarin names, also, and it seems Christopher thought there could not be any doubt. The notes described in note 65 are given in VT #41, and there this information is confirmed, and the Sindarin form of ''Umbarto'' is given as ''Amarthan'' (actually a translation).
:::On the forms ''Amras'' and ''Amros'' it should be noted that in ‘The Shibboleth of Fëanor’ ''Amras'' is only found in Christopher’s annotations and additions. Tolkien himself wrote ''Amros'', as the Sindarization of ''Ambarussa'', ''Amrod'' as the Sindarization of ''Ambarto'' and ''Amarthan'' as the Sindarin translation of ''Umbarto'', and there is no indication that he used the form ''Amras'' in this text and its related material. Therefore, if the version of Amrod’s death in the Shipburning at Losgar is to be treated as canonical on Tolkien Gateway, as is the case, the acceptance also of the name ''Amros'' instead of ''Amras'' and of ''Amarthan'' as another name for Amrod as canonical cannot be avoided. The appearance of the separation of the forms ''Amros'' and ''Amarthan'' from the ‘legend of the fate of Amrod’ is only artificially created by Christopher’s editorial selections and insertions, it is not based on Tolkien’s own texts. -- [[User:Mithrennaith|Mithrennaith]] 23:23, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

::::This is totally correct and, leaving aside that C. Tolkien titled the section in The Shibboleth as "the legend of the fate of Amrod" (not Amras), VT #41 leaves no doubt: "Had Amros (2) Ambarto lived, it [i.e. the name Ambarto] would probably have been [Sindarized] as Amrod." In view of this, and since nobody has edited the article yet (I guess it's been forgotten?), I'm going to try and amend it.--[[Special:Contributions/84.125.23.220|84.125.23.220]] 12:10, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Eagles

2014-04-17T22:47:11Z

84.125.23.220:

{{cleanup}}
{{race
| image=[[Image:Darrell Sweet - The Lord of the Eagles.jpg|250px]]
| name=Eagles
| dominions=[[Taniquetil]] [[Crissaegrim]] [[Eagles' Eyrie]]
| languages=At least [[Westron]], [[Sindarin]] and [[Valarin]]
| height=
| length=
| skincolor=
| haircolor=
| feathers=Brown
| distinctions=
| lifespan=
| members=[[Thorondor]], [[Great Eagle]], [[Gwaihir]], [[Landroval]], [[Meneldor]]
}}
The '''Eagles''' were birds that served as messengers of [[Manwë]]. Among those were the '''Great Eagles''', immense birds who were sentient and capable of speech, and often helped [[Men]], [[Elves]] and [[Wizards]] in the quests to defeat evil. They were "devised" by [[Manwë]] Súlimo, King of the [[Valar]], and were often called the '''Eagles of Manwë'''.

They were sent from [[Valinor]] to [[Middle-earth]] to keep an eye on the exiled [[Noldor|Ñoldor]], and on their foe the evil Vala [[Morgoth]].

==History==
The Great Eagles were messengers of [[Manwë]], the ruler of the sky and Lord of the [[Valar]], being perhaps "spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles" that brought news from [[Middle-earth]] to his halls upon [[Taniquetil]].<ref>{{S|Days}}</ref>

===First Age===
[[Image:Ted Nasmith - Beren and Lúthien are Flown to Safety.jpg|thumb|Thorondor flies [[Beren|Beren Erchamion]] and [[Lúthien|Lúthien Tinúviel]] over [[Gondolin]].]]
At a command of [[Manwë]], for a time the Lord of the Eagles, [[Thorondor]] kept his eyries at the top of [[Thangorodrim]], the volcano above [[Angband]] itself<ref>{{S|Noldor}}</ref><ref>{{S|Fingolfin}}</ref>. While they lived there, Thorondor helped [[Fingon]] rescue [[Maedhros]]. Thorondor's folk later removed their eyries to the [[Crissaegrim]], part of the [[Echoriad]] about [[Gondolin]]. There they were friends of [[Turgon]], keeping spies off the mountains, bringing him news and keeping spies off the borders. Because of their guardianship, the [[Orcs]] were unable to approach either the nearby mountains,<ref name="Silm-TFG">{{S|Gondolin}}</ref> or the important ford of [[Brithiach]] to the south;<ref name="Tuor">{{UT|Tuor}}</ref> their watch had been redoubled after the coming of [[Tuor]],<ref>{{S|Doriath}}</ref> enabling Gondolin to remain undiscovered the longest of all Elven realms. When the city [[fall of Gondolin|fell]] at last, the eagles of Thorondor protected the fugitives, driving away the orcs that ambushed them at [[Cirith Thoronath]], the Eagles' Cleft north of Gondolin.<ref name="Silm-TFG"/>

Thorondor wounded Morgoth in the face after Morgoth's battle with [[Fingolfin]], and he carried Fingolfin's body to the Echoriath, where he was buried by Fingon.

The Eagles fought alongside the army of the Valar, [[Elves]] and Edain during the [[War of Wrath]] at the end of the [[First Age]]. After the appearance of winged [[dragons]], all the great birds gathered under Thorondor to [[Eärendil]], and destroyed the majority of the dragons.<ref>{{S|Earendil}}</ref>

===Númenor===
In the [[Second Age]], a pair of Eagles had an eyrie in the King's House in [[Armenelos]], the capital of Númenor until the time of [[Tar-Ancalimon]], when the [[Kings of Númenor]] became hostile to the Valar.

The [[Númenóreans]] believed that three eagles, "the Witnesses of Manwë", were sent by Manwë to guard the summit of [[Meneltarma]]; these appeared whenever one approached the hallow and staying in the sky during the [[Three Prayers]].

Many eagles lived upon the hills around [[Sorontil]] in the north of the island.<ref>{{UT|Numenor}}</ref>
[[File:Ted Nasmith - The Eagles of Manwë.jpg|thumb|left|''The Eagles of Manwë'' by [[Ted Nasmith]].]]
Eagle-shaped storm clouds, called the "Eagles of the Lords of the West", were sent by Manwë when he tried to reason or threaten them.<ref>{{S|Akallabeth}}</ref>

===Third Age===
{{quote|- Farewell! wherever you fare, till your eyries receive you at the journey's end! - May the wind under your wings bear you where the [[sun]] sails and the [[moon]] walks.|Polite way to exchange good-bye with an Eagle|[[Queer Lodgings]]}}
By the end of the [[Third Age]], a colony under the [[Great Eagle]] lived in the northern parts of the [[Misty Mountains]] who mostly nested upon the eastward slopes not far from the [[High Pass]] leading from [[Rivendell]], and thus in the direct vicinity of the [[Goblin-town]] beneath; they often afflicted the goblins and disrupted their plans.

These Eagles helped the Elves of [[Rivendell]] and [[Radagast]] in watching the land and in gathering news about the Orcs.<ref>{{FR|Council}}</ref><ref>{{FR|South}}</ref>. As a result of feeding on the sheep of the local [[Woodmen]] of [[Mirkwood]], their relationship was not good and the Eagles were afraid of their bows.

Those rescued [[Thorin|Thorin]]'s company from a band of goblins and [[warg]]s and carried them to the [[Carrock]]<ref>{{H|Queer}}</ref> and some days later they espied the mustering of goblins all over the Mountains, to be gathered under the Great Eagle in the [[Battle of Five Armies]] near [[Lonely Mountain|Erebor]]. It was only with their help that the Dwarves, Men and Elves managed to defeat the goblins.<ref>{{H|Return}}</ref> The Great Eagle became [[King of All Birds]].

The Eagles appeared in great numbers at the [[Battle of the Morannon]], helping the [[Host of the West]] against the [[Nazgûl]]. Several of them rescued [[Frodo Baggins]] and [[Samwise Gamgee]] from [[Mount Doom]] after [[the One Ring]] had been destroyed.<ref>{{RK|Cormallen}}</ref>

==Names==
In [[Gnomish]], one of [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]]'s early conceptions of an [[Elvish|Elven]] language, a word for "eagle" is ''ioroth'' (poetic form ''ior''). A cognate of the same meaning in [[Qenya]] is the poetic ''ea(r)'' or ''earen''. Another Gnomish word for "an eagle" is ''thorn''.<ref>{{PE|11}}, pp. 51, 73</ref>

In the later languages, the [[Quenya]] word for eagle is ''soron'' and in [[Noldorin]]/[[Sindarin]] ''thoron/thorn''<ref>{{LR|Etymologies}}</ref>

The ''Thornhoth'' was the name for the eagle-folk in the earliest legends.<ref name="Fall">{{LT2|III}}, p. 103</ref>

==Inspiration==
Tolkien's painting of an eagle on a crag appears in some editions of ''The Hobbit''. According to [[Christopher Tolkien]], the author based this picture on a painting by Archibald Thorburn of an immature Golden Eagle, which Christopher found for him in ''The Birds of the British Isles'' by T.A. Coward. However, Tolkien's use of this model does not necessarily mean that his birds were ordinary Golden Eagles.

==Other versions of the legendarium==
In the earliest version of the fall of Gondolin, the king of the eagles, Thorndor (later Thorondor), had no love for Melko (later Melkor) because he had caught many eagles and tortured them for the magic words that would enable him to fly (in order to challenge Manwë for command of the air). When the eagles refused to reveal the magic words Melko cut off their wings in order to fashion a pair form himself, "but it availed not".<ref name="Fall"/>

For some time Tolkien considered the Eagles as bird-shaped [[Maiar]],<ref>{{MR|Annals}} p. 138</ref> as he felt it unlikely [[Ilúvatar]] would grant ''[[Fëa and hröa|fëar]]'' to animals. However, the notion of a "Maia" like Thorondor having descendants contradicted later concepts and Tolkien later decided that the Great Eagles (like [[Roäc]] and the [[Thrushes|Thrush]] of ''[[The Hobbit]]'') were common animals that had been "taught language by the Valar, and raised to a higher level — but without ''[[fëar]]''."<ref name="MR409-11">{{MR|Myths}} pp. 409-11</ref> In later texts, eagles were first envisioned by Manwë during the Music of the Ainur, and appeared shortly before the awakening of the Elves. Their origin is thus similar to that of ents.<ref>{{S|Aule}}</ref><ref>{{WJ|Ents}}</ref>

==Flying the Ring to Mount Doom==
{{quote|The Eagles are a dangerous 'machine'. I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness. |[[Letter 210]], [[J.R.R. Tolkien]]}}
[[File:Steve Notley - Bob the Angry Flower's Lord of the Ringz.gif|thumb|Parody comic strip by Steve Notley which shows [http://angryflower.com Bob the Angry Flower] flying the Ring to Mordor on an Eagle.]]
Many skeptical readers have wondered why the Eagles simply didn't carry Frodo and [[the One Ring]] into Mordor and drop the Ring in Mount Doom, or at least aid the Fellowship at some part of the journey, such as helping them avoiding the [[Redhorn Gate]] and [[Moria]].

At first glance this seems incredibly easy compared to what actually happened (and it would have made a boring book).

The party of Tolkienists that accepts this as a [[wikipedia:plot hole|plot hole]] usually respond that in any book there are usually plot holes. In a larger, far more detailed and realistic book we expect fewer (if any) plot holes, when in reality there is a far greater chance.
===Considering the Eagles===
Strangely, the possibility of using the Eagles has not been mentioned at all during the [[Council of Elrond]]. Although many flawed proposals are made during it (destroy the Ring, guard it, send it to the West, give it to [[Tom Bombadil]]), none of the participants thought to propose this seemingly obvious solution, especially after Gandalf described his escape with Gwaihir; even if the Eagle plan was to be countered or dismissed implausible later for some reason (like the ones above), it would be only logical to be mentioned.

On the other hand, the Council was seen deciding the fate of the Ring, not the manner; this was left to the discretion of the Fellowship. Indeed, during its existence, the Fellowship had not even decided whether they should go directly to Mordor or to seek aid from Gondor, let alone the manner to do so, before decisively been [[Breaking of the Fellowship|broken]] at [[Amon Hen]]. If Gandalf ever considered requesting the help of the Eagles after some point (eg. after passing the Misty Mountains) it's not mentioned in the narrative.<ref>{{HM|FR}}, Book II</ref>

===Official explanation to the problem===
It seems that nobody noticed this alleged plot-hole during Tolkien's lifetime, as there is no surviving letter where Tolkien is inquired so. It is unknown whether Tolkien ever was aware of the issue while writing the book or later.

Tolkien's only relevant mention is concerning a possible adaptation of the ''Lord of the Rings'' into a movie, where he simply mentions that the Eagles should be used carefully as a plot device and was self-aware whenever he used them.<ref>{{L|210}}</ref>

Peter Jackson and [[Fran Walsh]] joke around the issue on the writer-director DVD commentary track; writing partner [[Philippa Boyens]] then bursts out and angrily declares one of the common explanations: "Why does everyone always say that?! The flying Nazgûl on their Fell Beasts would have stopped them! How more obvious does that need to be?! Mordor has flying creatures too!"

===Other explanations===
[[File:Ted Nasmith - At the Foot of Mount Doom.jpg|thumb|According to ''[[The Field of Cormallen]]'', some Eagles flew to Mount Doom, rescued Frodo and Sam and carried them back. Critics say that they could as well had carried them there in the first place.]]
As Tolkien's writings on the Eagles do not allow for an explanation, several speculative theories have been proposed by critics, although they are not definitive and can be countered.<ref>[[Tolkien FAQ]]</ref><ref>[http://www.sean-crist.com/personal/pages/eagles/index.html Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor?]</ref>
*The Eagles coming from the air would have been fairly obvious and defensless to Sauron; the [[Fell beasts]] and/or archers would most likely have stopped the attempt. The Eagles expressed fear in ''[[The Hobbit]]'' about going into the Lands of Men because of their bows. After the Ring is destroyed (along with all of Sauron's forces), the Eagles met no resistance from evil forces; thus, they were able to rescue Frodo and Sam.
:This often cited argument could possibly have been countered with a parallel divertive battle plan, more or less like the [[Battle of the Morannon]] begun to help Frodo.

*The Eagles could have possibly become corrupted by the power of the Ring and would have most likely attempted to prevent the destruction. Gandalf himself not only knew that ''anyone'' might and would refuse to throw in the Ring, but he was also afraid of it; the Eagles, as Maiar, could have been corruptive and dangerous.

*Although Tolkien does not mention anything about it, it's possible that the Eagles were somehow limited in how they acted and participated, similar to how the [[Wizards]] were prohibited to directly fight Sauron by physical or supernatural force. The Eagles are seen to aid the [[free peoples]] and even [[Battle of Five Armies|participate]] in battles, but it's possible that for affairs of greater scope (such as Sauron and the Ring) they were either afraid, unwilling, incapable, or not allowed to take any part.

*The Eagles's availability and power must have been limited. Gwaihir only arrives at Isengard because he is sent by Radagast. Once he rescues Gandalf, the Wizard asks him how far he can bear him, to which the Eagle replies "...not to the ends of the earth. I was sent to bear tidings not burdens." He took Gandalf just to Edoras, so he could find a horse to ride, and then departed.

==External links==
*[http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/History.html#Eagles Tolkien FAQ] question and possible answer
*[http://www.sean-crist.com/personal/pages/eagles/index.html Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor?] a discussion investigating a possible battle plan that would help the eagles.

{{references}}
{{Ainur}}
[[Category:Characters in The Hobbit]]
[[Category:Eagles| ]]
[[Category:Races]]

[[de:Adler]]
[[fr:encyclo/biologie/faune/aigles]]
[[fi:Kotkat]]