Tolkien Gateway - User contributions [en]

Talk:The One Ring

2010-07-07T19:01:30Z

Dinosaur bob:

==Rewrite==
I'm having some trouble with the current, one-sided view of Kjaerulff in the Symbolism part. Can't we put the view of Tolkien first, and only then other people's views? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 21:45, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

==The Inscription- the films DIDN'T change this!==
I'm sitting here with the recent edition of The Fellowship of the Ring sitting in front of me- the one that was released in conjunction with the film triloy- and contrary to the article as it stands, the Ring's inscription DOES appear both on the interior and exterior curves.

Here's the passage verbatim, emphasis mine:
"As Frodo did so, he now saw fine lines, finer than the finest pen-strokes, running along the ring, '''outside and inside''': lines of fire that seemed to form the letters of a flowing script."
-"The Shadow of the Past", page 49 (at least in the copy I have before me).

So... in the interest of accuracy, could I change this? The films aren't running contrary to the books, at least according to THIS edition... so having that in the Portrayal in Adaptations section sort of irks me. [[User:Dinosaur bob|Dinosaur bob]] 19:01, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Samwise Gamgee

2010-06-21T03:05:17Z

Dinosaur bob: Undo revision 110380 by 221.152.26.224 (Talk)

{{hobbit
| image=[[Image:Peter Jackson's Samwise Gamgee.jpg|250px]]
| name=Samwise Gamgee
| othernames=[[Banazîr]]
| birth=[[April 6]], [[Third Age 2980|T.A. 2980]]
| death=Unknown, after [[Fourth Age 61]]
| parentage=[[Hamfast Gamgee]] and [[Bell Goodchild]]
| location=[[Hobbiton]]
| gender=Male
| hair=
|}}
<center>{{quote|I am glad you are here with me. Here at the end of all things, Sam|[[Frodo Baggins|Frodo]] to Sam at the downfall of [[Sauron]].}}</center>

'''Samwise Gamgee''' ([[Third Age]] April 6, 2980{{ref|1}} - [[Fourth Age]] 61; [[Shire Reckoning]]: 1380 - 1482; 99 years old when he sailed into the [[Aman|West]]) was [[Frodo Baggins]]' servant and the only original member of the [[Fellowship of the Ring]] to remain with him till the very end of the journey to [[Mount Doom]].

== History ==
A gardener by trade, Sam seemed to be a simple [[Hobbit]] of plain speech. However, his love for [[Elves]], his gift for poetry, and his belief that the world contains greater wonders than most hobbits are aware of (all nurtured by his tutor [[Bilbo Baggins]]) set him apart from the beginning. It was Sam who first introduced the theme of the Elves' sailing from [[Middle-earth]], a subtle foreshadowing of Bilbo and Frodo's final journey across the Sea. He lived with his father, Hamfast Gamgee, better known as "[[The Gaffer]]", on [[Bagshot Row]] in the [[Shire]], close to [[Bag End]]. Sam's mother was [[Bell Goodchild]]; he had five siblings: [[Hamson Gamgee|Hamson]], [[Halfred Gamgee|Halfred]], [[Daisy Gamgee|Daisy]], [[May Gamgee|May]], and [[Marigold Gamgee|Marigold]].

As "punishment" for eavesdropping on [[Gandalf|Gandalf's]] conversation with [[Frodo Baggins|Frodo]] regarding the dangers of the [[One Ring]], Sam was made Frodo's first companion on his journey to [[Rivendell]] in the beginning of ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''. Sam saved Frodo's life more than once during the quest to destroy the Ring, and he accompanied him all the way to [[Mount Doom]].

After [[Shelob]] attacked and seemingly killed Frodo, Sam took the Ring, intending to complete the quest. Because he held the Ring for a time, he is considered one of the [[Ring-bearers]].

After the [[War of the Ring]], he married [[Rose Cotton|Rose "Rosie" Cotton]] back in the Shire. They had thirteen children: [[Elanor Gardner|Elanor the Fair]], [[Frodo Gardner|Frodo]], [[Rose Gardner|Rose]], [[Merry Gardner|Merry]], [[Pippin Gardner|Pippin]], [[Goldilocks Gardner|Goldilocks]], [[Hamfast Gardner|Hamfast]], [[Daisy Gardner|Daisy]], [[Primrose Gardner|Primrose]], [[Bilbo Gardner|Bilbo]], [[Ruby Gardner|Ruby]], [[Robin Gardner|Robin]], and [[Tolman Gardner|Tolman]]. After [[Will Whitfoot]] resigned his post as [[Mayor of Michel Delving]] (the largest town in the Shire and the "unofficial capital"), in Fourth Age 7, Sam was elected Mayor of the Shire for seven consecutive 7-year terms.

After his wife died in Fourth Age 62, Sam entrusted the [[Red Book of Westmarch|Red Book]] to Elanor and left Middle-earth to sail across the Sea and be reunited with Frodo in the [[Undying Lands]], (though it should be noted that as they were both born mortals, they would still eventually die a mortal death).

==Etymology==
Samwise means "simple minded" or "half-minded". Gamgee is a corruption of the name Gammidgy. Both names are presented as translations of the [[Westron]] form of Sam's name '''[[Banazîr]] [[Galbasi]]''' (''also spelled Galpsi'') (q.v. for more information).

Tolkien's English translation, ''Samwís Gamwich'', could have come to ''Samwise Gamgee'' in modern English.

The [[Sindarin]] version of Samwise is '''[[Perhael]]'''.

== Inspiration==
[[J.R.R. Tolkien]] took the name from ''Gamgee Tissue'', a surgical dressing invented by a 19th century [[Birmingham]] surgeon called Joseph Sampson Gamgee. "Gamgee" became the colloquial name in Birmingham for cotton wool. Here, Tolkien describes why he had chosen that name for his character:
{{quote|The choice of Gamgee was primarily directed by alliteration; but I did not invent it. It was caught out of childhood memory, as a comic word or name. It was in fact the name when I was small (in Birmingham) for 'cotton-wool'. (Hence the association of the Gamgees with the Cottons.) I knew nothing of its origin.|''[[The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien]]''}}

It is possible that Tolkien may have subconsciously recalled Dr. Gamgee (who died in 1886 but is commemorated by a plaque at the Birmingham Medical Institute, only yards from Tolkien's childhood home) but he claimed to be genuinely surprised when, in March 1956, he received a letter from one Sam Gamgee, who had heard that his name was in ''The Lord of the Rings'' but had not read the book. Tolkien replied on March 18:
{{quote|Dear Mr. Gamgee,It was very kind of you to write. You can imagine my astonishment when I saw your signature! I can only say, for your comfort, I hope, that the 'Sam Gamgee' of my story is a most heroic character, now widely beloved by many readers, even though his origins are rustic. So that perhaps you will not be displeased at the coincidence of the name of this imaginary character of supposedly many centuries ago being the same as yours.|''[[The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien]]''}}

He proceeded to send Mr Gamgee a signed copy of all three volumes of the book. However, the incident sparked a nagging worry in Tolkien's mind, as he recorded in his journal:
{{quote|For some time I lived in fear of receiving a letter signed 'S. Gollum'. That would have been more difficult to deal with.|''[[J.R.R. Tolkien: A Biography]]''}}

== Portrayal in Adaptations ==
[[Image:Rankin-Bass' Samwise Gamgee.jpg|thumb|right|Samwise Gamgee as portrayed in [[Rankin/Bass' The Return of the King]].]]
'''1955: ''[[The Lord of the Rings (1955 radio series)|BBC Radio's The Lord of the Rings]]'':'''
:[[Victor Platt]] provided the voice of Sam.
'''1978: ''[[Ralph Bakshi's The Lord of the Rings]]'':'''
:[[Michael Scholes]] was the voice of Sam, and [[Billy Barty]] played him in rotoscoped footage.

'''1979: ''[[The Lord of the Rings (1979 radio series)|Mind's Eye's The Lord of the Rings]]'':'''
:The voice of Sam is provided by [[Lou Bliss]].

'''1980: ''[[Rankin/Bass' The Return of the King]]'':'''
:[[Roddy McDowall]] provided the voice of Sam.

'''1981: ''[[The Lord of the Rings (1981 radio series)|BBC Radio's The Lord of the Rings]]'':'''
:A young [[Bill Nighy|William Nighy]] portrays Sam as a warm and caring person. No dialectical or social difference was made.

'''1992: ''[[Tales from the Perilous Realm (1992 radio series)|Tales from the Perilous Realm]]'':'''
:In the two episodes of "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil", [[Jonathan Adams]] portrayed Sam with a very rustic accent.

'''2002: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring (video game)|Vivendi's The Fellowship of the Ring]]'':'''
:[[Scott Menville]] provided the voice for Sam in all but the X-box version; there, [[Cliff Broadway]] took over. The role of Sam is greatly diminished: after being caught eavesdropping by Gandalf, Sam is to be Frodo's companion, but he does not appear again until Frodo reaches [[Farmer Maggot]].

'''2001-3: ''[[Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings]]'':'''
:Sam is played by [[Sean Astin]].

== Commentary ==
Sam Gamgee is by many regarded as the "true hero" of Tolkien's story. Tolkien himself expressed this view in one of his letters: Sam is referred to as the "chief hero", and special emphasis is placed on Sam's "rustic love" for Rosie{{ref|2}}. The quest to destroy the Ring only succeeds because of Sam, who repeatedly saves Frodo from disaster (such as rescuing him at [[Cirith Ungol]] and carrying him up [[Mount Doom]]). He was one of three Ring-bearers strong enough to surrender the Ring voluntarily.

The relationship between Frodo and Sam is, in many respects, at the center of ''The Lord of the Rings''. To the modern reader, it seems archaic, as it is extremely class-oriented. Sam's humbleness and "plain speaking" is frequently emphasised in contrast to Frodo's "gentility", and he often shows deference to Frodo, calling him "Mister Frodo" or "Master". At the same time, a strong bond of love and trust grows between them, portrayed most poignantly during the events of Cirith Ungol, where Sam vows to return to his (apparently) dead master, to be reunited with Frodo in death.

[[Tolkienists]] regard Sam as Frodo's ''[[wikipedia:Batman (army)|batman]]''. In the British Army, a batman was an orderly who acted as the personal servant of an officer. It was a role with which Tolkien (who served as an Army officer in the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I First World War]) would have been extremely familiar. Sam undertakes all of the typical roles of a batman — he runs errands for Frodo, he cooks, he transports him (or at least carries him), and he carries his luggage. Tolkien confirmed this interpretation when he wrote in a private letter that:
{{quote|My Sam Gamgee is indeed a reflexion of the English soldier, of the privates and batmen I knew in the 1914 war, and recognized as so far superior to myself|''[[The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien]]''}}

Compare to the relation between [[wikipedia:Don_Quixote|Don Quixote]] and his squire [[wikipedia:Sancho Panza|Sancho Panza]], and the gradual "Quixotization" of Sancho.

== Notes ==
# {{note|1}} In the second edition of ''The Lord of the Rings'', Sam's year of birth was added to ''[[The Tale of Years]]''; it was, however, [[Third Age 2963|T.A. 2963]]. This contradicts both the ''[[Longfather Tree of Master Samwise]]'' and a later entry in ''The Tale of Years''. The incorrect date has been corrected in the [[The Lord of the Rings (50th Anniversary Edition)|50th anniversary edition]]. See also ''[[The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion]]'', page 716.
# {{note|2}} ''[[The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien]]'', [[Letter 131]]

{{sequence
|prev=[[Frodo Baggins]]
|next=[[Frodo Baggins]]
|list=[[Ring-bearer]] [[March 13]], [[Third Age 3019|T.A. 3019]] - [[March 14]], 3019}}{{fellowship}}

[[Category:Characters]]
[[Category:Hobbits]]
[[Category:Gamgee]]
[[Category:Ring-bearers]]
[[Category:Characters in The Lord of the Rings]]

[[de:Samweis Gamdschie]]

Sting

2010-06-15T21:05:57Z

Dinosaur bob:

{{rewrite}}
[[Image:John Howe - Sting.jpg|thumb|''Sting'' by [[John Howe]].]]
'''Sting''' was an [[Elvish]] knife that was probably made in [[Gondolin]] in the [[First Age]]. Its maker and original bearer are unknown.

==History==
During the [[The_Hobbit#Synopsis|Quest of Erebor]], in [[May]] [[Third_Age_2941|2941]]<ref>{{H|2}}</ref>, [[Thorin and Company]] happened upon a trio of nasty, hungry [[Trolls]] named [[Tom]], [[Bert]], and [[William Huggins]] who nearly ate them for supper. Only the intervention of [[Gandalf]] the Grey saved the company from such a horrible fate. <ref>{{H|2}}</ref>

During the scuffle, Willaim dropped the key to their troll-cave, which contained all manner of treasure plundered from the trolls' victims. [[Bilbo Baggins]] recovered the key, allowing the company to claim the treasure in its entirety, including several fine [[Elves|Elvish]] blades. [[Glamdring]] went to Gandalf, while its mate [[Orcrist]] was claimed by [[Thorin II Oakenshield|Thorin Oakenshield]]. Bilbo, too, claimed a blade: merely a dagger by the standards of [[Men]] or its original Elvish makers, and but a tiny pocket-knife for the trolls whose hoard it was found in, but it made an excellent short sword for a [[Hobbit]]. <ref>{{H|2}}</ref>

When Bilbo was captured by [[Orc|goblins]] while crossing the [[Misty Mountains]], the goblins failed to notice the weapon simply because Bilbo wore it inside his breeches.<ref>{{H|5}}</ref> When Bilbo was separated from the others during their escape, this allowed him to rely on the dagger's glowing blade to light his way, as well as use it to keep a hungry [[Gollum]] at bay while he tried to find his way out of the labyrinthine tunnels in the roots of the mountains.<ref>{{H|5}}</ref>

The weapon remained nameless until the company reached [[Mirkwood]] and, deep in the darkness, Bilbo and his companions were beset by the forest's [[Spider|spiders]]. Awakening to find himself half-cocooned, Bilbo used the dagger to free himself and slay his attacker, the first time he had used it in battle. The act prompted him to name the weapon with the words, "I will give you a name, and I will call you ''Sting''." <ref>{{H|8}}</ref> Bilbo used the newly-christened Sting to cut the spiders' silk to free his companions, and during the ensuing battle, utilized it in combination with the [[The One Ring|magic ring]] he had found in Gollum's cave, thrown rocks, and hurled insults to help the venom-weakened dwarves fight their way out of the spiders' nest. <ref>{{H|8}}</ref>

When Bilbo returned to the [[Shire]] in [[Third_Age_2942|2942]], he brought his little dagger with him. He displayed it above the mantleplace, where it most likely was when Gandalf and [[Balin]] visited him seven years later in [[Third_Age_2949|2949]] <ref>{{H|19}}</ref>After the [[Farewell Party]] on [[September 22]], [[Third_Age_3001|3001]], Bilbo took Sting with him when he left [[Hobbiton]], and it resided with the aged hobbit in [[Rivendell]] for the next 18 years. In [[Third_Age_3019|3019]], just before the [[Fellowship of the Ring]] set off from Rivendell, Bilbo gave Sting to his nephew [[Frodo Baggins]], as well as his wondrous coat of [[Mithril]] mail, as a gift to protect him on the perilous journey to [[Mount Doom]] that lay ahead.

As a consequence of his centuries of corruption under The One Ring's influence, Gollum feared weapons of Elvish make like Sting, which made the knife a factor in aiding Frodo in temporarily taming the wretched creature. It also helped Frodo and [[Samwise Gamgee]] escape from the lair of the terrible [[Shelob]] in [[Cirith Ungol]], and during the ensuing battle, even after paralyzing Frodo, the massive spider met its match in a determined Samwise Gamgee and learned how the Elvish weapon earned its name. Still armed with Sting, Sam stormed the [[Tower of Cirith Ungol]] in order to rescue Frodo, though he found little in the way of a fight, as the tower had seen a battle between its own forces over Frodo's mithril-mail coat.

After the defeat of Sauron at the end of the [[Third Age]], when both Bilbo and Frodo sailed across the sea to the [[Undying Lands]], Sting remained with Sam. He may have taken it with him when he, at last, followed them as was his right as the last remaining [[Ring-Bearer]], or it may have remained as an heirloom of the [[Gardner Family]].

==Special Properties==

Sting had the (apparently) magic ability to detect the presence of [[Orcs]] in its vicinity. When Orcs were nearby, it glowed blue, as it did when the Fellowship encountered Orcs in the mines of [[Moria]]. Sting also glowed in the presence of the giant spider descendants of [[Ungoliant]], such as the spiders of Mirkwood and Shelob.

Sting also performed better than ordinary weapons in combat and against odd materials; it cut through the webs of giant spiders easily, whereas the [[Daggers of Westernesse|blade]] that Sam brought from the [[Barrow Downs]] failed to cut through Shelob's webs.

==Portrayal in Adaptions==
<center>
<gallery>
Image:StingRB1977.JPG|<center>''[[The Hobbit (1977 film)|The Hobbit]]''</center>
Image:StingRB1980.JPG|<center>''[[The Return of the King (1980 film)|The Return of the King]]''</center>
</gallery></center>
'''[[1977]]: ''[[The Hobbit (1977 film)|The Hobbit]]'':'''
:Sting has a distinctive shape, with a vaguely leaf-shaped blade, round, ball-shaped pommel, featureless black hilt, and a unique guard sporting a ring in the front that the wielder's finger slips into when grasping the hilt. This version of Sting glows bright white, not blue as in the books and most other adaptations. Notably, following the Rankin/Bass adaptations' pattern of not explicitly showing violence, Sting is not shown stabbing or slashing its victims; instead, a strange fly-eye like effect is shown when Bilbo slays the giant spiders in Mirkwood, an effect that is oddly repeated when he knocks another spider off of a branch with a rock.<ref>''The Hobbit (1977 film)''</ref>

'''[[1980]]: ''[[The Return of the King (1980 film)|The Return of the King]]'':'''
:Sting's appearance is broadly similar to that in Rankin/Bass' earlier film, with some alterations; notably, the shape of the blade is changed from vaguely leaf-shaped to stout and straight-bladed, and the hilt is no longer a featureless black, but is now adorned with intricate designs.<ref>''The Return of the King (1980 film)''</ref>

'''[[2001]]-[[2003|3]]: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Motion Picture Trilogy]]'':'''
:Sting is leaf-shaped. Upon its crossguard are engraved the [[Sindarin]] words:

:[[image:sting_engraved.png]] 
::''Maegnas aen estar nin dagnir in yngyl im''

:Which is translated "Maegnas is my name, I am the spider's bane".

'''[[2003]]: ''[[The Hobbit (2003 video game)|The Hobbit]]'':'''
:Unlike the book, Sting is first seen in the Dream World stage, a sort of tutorial wherein Bilbo, after fainting during the Unexpected Party, dreams he is at the Battle of Five Armies and must fight his way through a few waves of goblins before being overwhelmed by [[Bolg]] and his guard, startling awake, and continuing the story.<ref>''The Hobbit (2003 video game)'', "Dream World"</ref> After Bilbo awakens, Sting is not seen again until the end of the Troll-Hole stage, which takes place after the encounter with Tom, Bill, and Bert like in the book. Unlike in the book, where Bilbo does not name Sting until he is in [[Mirkwood]], he gives it a name almost immediately.<ref>''The Hobbit (2003 video game)'', "Troll-hole"</ref>

{{references}}
{{weapons}}

[[Category:Weapons]]
[[Category:Swords]]

[[de:Stich]]
[[fr:encyclo:artefacts:armes:dard]]
[[fi:Piikki]]

Uruk-hai

2010-06-15T00:18:46Z

Dinosaur bob: Removing movie-only info from the book section

{{sources}}
{{race
|image=[[Image:John Howe - The Uruk-hai.jpg|250px]]
|name= Uruk-hai
|dominions=[[Isengard|Northern Rohan and Isengard]], [[Mordor]]
|languages=Various dialects of the [[Black Speech]], [[Westron]]
|height= over 5' 5"
|length=
|skincolor=
|haircolor=
|feathers=
|distinctions= Large build
|lifespan= Possibly eternal
|members= [[Uglúk]], [[Mauhúr]]
}}
{{quote|...and others, too, came out of the forest. Great Orcs, who also bore the White Hand of [[Isengard]]: that kind is stronger and more fell than all the others.|[[Éomer]], ''[[The Riders of Rohan]]''}}

The '''Uruk-hai''' were a new breed of [[Orcs]] that appeared during the [[Third Age]].

==Appearance==
The Uruk-hai made up a large part of [[Saruman]]'s army, together with the [[Dunland|Dunlendings]] and other [[Men|human]] enemies of [[Rohan]], and similar large Orcs also served as the elite troops of [[Mordor]]. They were faster than normal Orcs and could travel during the day without being weakened. They were not only faster but smarter, stronger and larger, though some were still shorter than Men. There are suggestions that the Uruk-hai were the result of crossbreeding Orcs and [[Men]]. Certainly, other creatures in Saruman's armies, and under his command in the Shire, appear to have been hybrids, though these "half-orcs" were as tall as Men and are never described simply as Orcs, as the Uruk-hai frequently are. It is never explained exactly ''how'' Orcs were hybridized with humans,it was more probably that some form of alchemy used to infuse Orcs with human qualities. [[Treebeard]] openly wonders if they are Orcs that have been somehow "improved", or Men that were corrupted with Orc-like qualities, or if they were indeed a blending of Men and Orcs, an act which Treebeard considered to be "a black evil". Saruman's army of Uruk-hai fought against [[Kings of Rohan|King]] [[Théoden]] of Rohan and his people at [[Battle of the Hornburg|Helm's Deep]].

The race of uruks, described as "black orcs of great strength" first appeared about the year [[Third Age 2475|2475]] of the Third Age, when they conquered [[Ithilien]] and destroyed the city of [[Osgiliath]]. These were evidently of Sauron's breeding, but it is not clear whether or not these uruks should be regarded as identical with the Uruk-hai, who could be a further 'improvement' to the race achieved by Saruman.

The Orcs and Uruks in the service of [[Barad-dûr]], the folk of Mordor, used the symbol of the [[Eye of Sauron|Red Eye of Sauron]]. The Red Eye was also painted on their shields. At least one, a guard on the march with [[Meriadoc Brandybuck|Merry]] and [[Peregrin Took|Pippin]], had a black knife with a long saw-edged blade, used by Pippin to cut through the ropes on his hands. These Uruks of Mordor referred to Sauron as the Great Eye, and [[Grishnákh]] was their captain. They were all long-armed and crook-legged, not as tall as the [[Isengard|Isengarder]] Uruks but larger than the [[Moria]] Orcs. They could see better in the dark than the Isengarders could.

The Uruk-hai of [[Saruman|Saruman the White]] used an S [[Cirth|elf-rune]] wrought in white metal on the front of their iron helms. It was clear this "S" stood for Saruman, because their shields had a small white hand (the symbol of Saruman) centered on a black field. [[Aragorn]] commented that their gear was not in the manner of other Orcs at all. Instead of curved scimitars, they used short, broad-bladed swords. Their great [[Bows|bows]] were made of yew wood, in length and shape as those of Men. They also appeared different physically: greater stature, swarthy, slant-eyed, thick legs and large hands. Although they did not like the light of the [[Sun]], they could withstand it better than other orcs. Saruman promised them man-flesh as a treat. He aided them with his wizardry as well: when Aragorn, [[Gimli]], and [[Legolas]] followed the party of Uruks who kidnapped Merry and Pippin, Saruman's will caused weariness of the heart for the pursuers and lent speed to the Orcs. [[Uglúk]] led the Uruk-hai of Isengard, and since they were the strongest he felt that he led the [[Hobbits|hobbit]] march as well, insisting on going back by way of Isengard. This was the group that slew [[Boromir (son of Denethor II)|Boromir]].

==Etymology==
The name Uruk-hai has the element ''Uruk'', which is a [[Black Speech]] word meaning ''Orc''. Many known languages have a word related to thus ([[Quenya]] ''[[orco]]'', [[Sindarin]] ''[[orch]]'', [[Westron]] ''[[orka]]'', [[Khuzdul]] ''[[rukhs]]'' and presumably [[Drúedain|Drúedainic]] ''[[gorgûn]]''). The element ''-hai'', also present in [[Olog-hai]] and [[Oghor-hai]], means "folk, people".

==Portrayal in adaptations==
In both [[Ralph Bakshi's The Lord of the Rings]] and [[Rankin/Bass' The Return of the King]], Uruk-hai are portrayed identical as (and without distinction to) the [[Orcs]].

In [[Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings]], Saruman appears to be the only one who created the Uruks. They are shown in the movie as being released from a kind of membrane in the mud deep under Isengard (special commentary on the DVD edition explained that they were trying to base the scene on a early description of Tolkien's that Orcs "worm their way out of the ground like maggots"). In the movies Uruk-hai are described as a crossbreed between Orcs and "goblin-men": this may be a dialogue error because in Tolkien's works "Orc" is a synonym for goblin. This description may however refer to humans corrupted by Goblins. These Uruks are sent after the Fellowship, and their leader is [[Lurtz]], a movie-only character.

His Uruks include Pikemen, Swordsmen, Archers, and Berserkers.
The Berserkers are the shock troops. When they were first spawned a helmet filled with blood was placed on their heads, so that they were filled with a bloodlust for their enemies. They carry doubly-bent swords, and forgo any armor in lieu of agility, slaying foes left and right, completely devoid of fear and pain. Pikemen, as the name suggests, carry long pikes, while archers carry [[crossbows]]. Swordsmen wield a straight iron sword, hooked at the tip, and deadly in an Uruk-hai's strong grip. They also use bladed shields, as seen in [[Amon Hen]] during [[Aragorn II|Aragorn]]'s fight against Lurtz.

The Uruks were also very efficient using siege equipment, and had been trained to use crossbows with deadly accuracy. The Uruks, like the lesser Orcs, seemed to not care of each other's presence, shown by the battering ram wielders at Helm's Deep, barging each other off of the thin bridge. The Uruks also hated the Orcs, believing they were a lesser being and often rioting, eg in the tower of Cirith Ungol when Shagrat and Gorbag argued over Frodo's vest of Mithril and starting a mass war within the tower. The Uruks seem also to be able to control natural urges than the Orcs, eg the Orcs demanding to eat the hobbits they had captured, while the Uruks were protective. It would seem the only way Orcs were better than Uruks is in treachery, lying and being devious. The Uruks are also not seen to ever ride a mount, possibly due to size, weight and build (the Wargs which attacked the Rohan migration were ridden by trained Orcs).

==See also==
* [[Olog-hai]]

[[Category:Uruk-Hai| ]]
[[Category:Servants of Saruman]]
[[Category:Servants of Sauron]]

Túrin Turambar

2010-06-14T23:33:06Z

Dinosaur bob: Spelling/grammar

{{disambig-more|Túrin|[[Túrin (disambiguation)]]}}
{{disambig-two|the tragic hero of the [[First Age]]|[[Kings of Gondor|King]] of [[Gondor]]|[[Turambar (King of Gondor)]]}}
{{First Age Edain infobox
| image=[[Image:Alan Lee - Túrin Turambar.jpg|300 px]]
| name=Túrin Turambar
| house=[[House of Hador|Hador]]
| othernames=[[Neithan]], [[Gorthol]], [[Mormegil]], [[Agarwaen]], [[Thurin]], [[Adanedhel]]; [[Turindo]]
| titles=Prince of [[Dor-lómin]]
| birth=[[First Age 463]], [[Dor-lómin]]
| realm=[[Dor-lómin]], [[Doriath]], [[Talath Dirnen]]
| death=[[First Age 499]], [[Cabed-en-Aras]]
| age=36
| parentage=[[Húrin Thalion|Húrin]] + [[Morwen Eledhwen|Morwen]]
| spouse=[[Nienor Níniel]]
| children=Unborn
| gender=Male
| hair=Dark
| ref=''[[The Children of Húrin]]'', ''[[Of Túrin Turambar]]'', ''[[Narn i Hîn Húrin]]''
|}}
<center>{{quote|He was dark-haired as his mother, and promised to be like her in mood also; for he was not merry, and spoke little, though he learned to speak early and ever seemed older than his years. Túrin was slow to forget injustice or mockery; but the fire of his father was also in him, and he could be sudden and fierce. Yet he was quick to pity, and the hurts or sadness of living things might move him to tears.|''[[The Children of Húrin]]'', [[The Childhood of Túrin]]}}</center> '''Túrin Turambar''' ([[First Age]] 463 – 499, aged 36 years) was a tragic hero of the First Age whose life was dominated by the curse of the [[Enemy]]. His deeds became the tale called ''[[Narn i Chîn Húrin]]'' ("The Tale of the Children of Húrin").

== History ==
Túrin was the only son of [[Húrin Thalion]] and [[Morwen Eledhwen]]. He had a younger sister ''Urwen'' whom everyone called [[Lalaith, daughter of Húrin|Lalaith]], but she died in childhood of a plague. After Húrin was captured in the [[Nirnaeth Arnoediad]] ("Battle of Unnumbered Tears"), Túrin remained with his mother Morwen, who hid him from the [[Easterlings]] that [[Morgoth]] had sent to [[Hithlum]], fearing they would kill Túrin or enslave him. Unknown to Túrin, Morgoth had placed a curse on all of Húrin's family.

Túrin was friend with [[Sador]], their household servant whom he helped in his works. Sador taught him many things, and carved for him several things from wood.
===Upbringing in Doriath===
When Túrin was seven years old she sent him to [[Doriath]], where he was adopted by King [[Thingol]] as a son. After this Túrin's second sister, [[Nienor]] was born. Túrin was restless, and as soon as he was permitted he joined [[Beleg Cúthalion]] on the marches of Doriath, fighting the [[Orcs]] of Morgoth. He wore the [[Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin]], and the Orcs began to fear him more than any other.

[[Image:Ted Nasmith - Túrin Reaches the Abandoned Homestead.jpg|thumb|left|200px|''Túrin Reaches the Abandoned Homestead'' by [[Ted Nasmith]].]]
Túrin accidentally caused the death of [[Saeros]], one of Thingol's counsellors who had provoked and attacked him. Before he could be either punished or forgiven he fled, eventually meeting up with a band of outlaws, the [[Gaurwaith]] that dwelt south of the [[Forest of Brethil]]. There he identified himself only as '''''Neithan''''' ("The Wronged"). Túrin killed their leader [[Forweg]] and became their leader in his place. During his rule he stopped the outlaws from raiding houses of Men, and only hunted Orcs.

In the meantime Beleg Cúthalion obtained leave by Thingol to seek out his friend. Beleg found Túrin's outlaws at Amon Rûdh and when he could not persuade his friend to leave the outlaws, he left to return to Doriath. While they were parted, and after such a long time living in the wild, Túrin's band captured [[Mîm]] the [[Petty-dwarves|Petty-dwarf]]. Mîm was forced to share his halls on [[Amon Rûdh]] with them.

At Doriath, Beleg asked to be able to join his friend. Thingol allowed this and also gave him the black sword [[Anglachel]], and [[Melian]] gave him ''[[lembas]]''. Beleg returned to Túrin that winter, healing those of the band that had become sick with cold. Beleg brought with him the Dragon-helm, and the area around Amon Rûdh became known as '''[[Dor-Cúarthol]]''', the "Land of Bow and Helm" (since Beleg was known as a mighty bowman). There Túrin took the name '''''Gorthol''''', "The Dread Helm". Many warriors joined them, and much of [[West Beleriand]] was freed from evil for a while.

[[Image:Ted Nasmith - Beleg is Slain.jpg|thumb|''Beleg is Slain'' by [[Ted Nasmith]].]]
Eventually Túrin was betrayed by Mîm, and he was captured and all his men slain. Beleg survived and rescued Túrin from the Orcs in [[Taur-nu-Fuin (Dorthonion)|Taur-nu-Fuin]] with the help of [[Gwindor]], an escaped slave of Morgoth, but Túrin accidentally killed Beleg with Beleg's sword Anglachel. Gwindor led Túrin, dazed, to the [[Pools of Ivrin]], where he came back to his senses.

===Nargothrond===
Gwindor then led Túrin to [[Nargothrond]], where once he had lived. In Nargothrond Túrin hid his name, calling himself '''''Agarwaen, son of [[Úmarth]]''''' ("[[Bloodstained]], son of Ill-fate"). He had Anglachel reforged and named it [[Gurthang]] ("Iron of Death"). [[Finduilas of Nargothrond|Finduilas]], daughter of [[Orodreth of Nargothrond|Orodreth]], fell in love with him, but he avoided her because she had previously been the beloved of his friend Gwindor. Túrin declined to tell her his name, so that she called him '''''Thurin''''' ("The Secret"). He was also called '''''Adanedhel''''' ("Man-Elf") because he was so like an Elf, though he was human.

[[Image:Ted Nasmith - Túrin Bears Gwindor to Safety.jpg|thumb|250px|left|''Túrin Bears Gwindor to Safety'' by [[Ted Nasmith]].]]
His identity did not remain hidden for long. Gwindor revealed to [[Finduilas of Nargothrond|Finduilas]] that 'Agarwaen' was in fact Túrin, and 'Úmarth' his famous father [[Húrin Thalion|Húrin]]. When news of this reached Finduilas' father King [[Orodreth]], Túrin was given great honour and standing, but the revelation of Túrin's identity would also bring home Morgoth's curse.

Túrin became a chief counsellor of the weak Orodreth, and was extremely influential in Nargothrond. He encouraged the Nargothrondrim to abandon their practice of secrecy, and they built a great bridge before the gates. Because of his prowess with Gurthang, he himself became known as '''''Mormegil''''' ("Black Sword").

Morgoth sent the [[Dragon]] [[Glaurung]] to Nargothrond. Túrin was caught by the powerful gaze of Glaurung, and stood by idly as Finduilas was dragged away, calling to him, a captive for Morgoth. Glaurung deceived him into believing Morwen and Nienor were suffering in Dor-lómin, and Túrin abandoned Finduilas to seek out his kin. In actuality Morwen and Nienor were safely in Doriath, as Túrin's own efforts had made the way passable.

Once in Dor-lómin, Túrin found his old home empty. He went to the halls of the Easterling lord [[Brodda]], who had taken Húrin's kinswoman [[Aerin]] as a wife and had taken Húrin's lands and possessions. From Aerin, Túrin learned that Morwen had left, and in his rage he killed Brodda, thereby also sealing Aerin's fate. As Túrin left again, Aerin burnt herself alive in her halls, and the remainder of the [[House of Hador]] now was persecuted even more cruelly.

Túrin next tried to find Finduilas, but by the time he picked up the Orc's trail he came too late: the woodsmen of Brethil informed him she had been killed as they had tried to rescue the prisoners of Nargothrond. Túrin collapsed on the mound she was buried in, and was brought to Brethil.

===In Brethil===
In Brethil Túrin again took up his life, now calling himself '''''Turambar''''' ("Master of Fate") in an act of bravado, deciding that his curse was now finally over. One day he found a naked young woman on Finduilas's grave, and calling her ''[[Níniel]]'' he later took her as his wife.

Túrin's happiness ended when Glaurung came near Brethil. Túrin with two others set out to kill the dragon, but he was the only one to reach the drake. With his black sword he killed Glaurung at [[Cabed-en-Aras]], but was hurt and fell in a swoon. As Níniel came to search for him, Glaurung with his last words revealed to her she was Túrin's sister. Horrified, Nienor Níniel killed herself.

[[Image:Ted Nasmith - Túrin Prepares to Take His Life.jpg|thumb|200px|''Túrin Prepares to Take His Life'' by [[Ted Nasmith]].]]
When Túrin awoke he was told by [[Brandir the Lame|Brandir]], lord of the [[Haladin]] of Brethil what had happened, and he killed Brandir, refusing to believe. When he learned from [[Mablung of the Heavy Hand|Mablung]] of Doriath who had come to seek him that Brandir had told the truth, he killed himself on Gurthang, his black sword.

Túrin was buried near Finduilas' grave, and on his tombstone the Haladin wrote in the [[Angerthas Daeron|Cirth of Doriath]]:

<blockquote>TÚRIN TURAMBAR DAGNIR GLAURUNGA (''Túrin, Conqueror of Fate, Slayer of Glaurung'')</blockquote>

Beneath that they also wrote:

<blockquote>NIENOR NÍNIEL</blockquote>

though her body could not be found.
==Legacy==
Morwen and Húrin later met at this site for the last time, and Morwen was also buried there. The mound survived the [[War of Wrath]] and as [[Tol Morwen]] was the westernmost isle off the coast of [[Lindon]] in the [[Second Age|Second]] and [[Third Age]]s.

It was prophesied by the [[Valar|Vala]] [[Mandos]] that at the end of time Morgoth would wage a final battle against the [[Valar]], the [[Final Battle]], and that Túrin Turambar would deliver the death blow, exterminating evil forever.

Túrin was a first cousin of [[Tuor]], father of [[Eärendil the Mariner|Eärendil]]. There are many parallels between the circumstances of their lives (both lost their fathers in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, were raised in part by Elves, spent time as outlaws and as prisoners, and were war-leaders in the greatest [[Noldor|Noldorin]] fortresses), but the outcome of Tuor's life was quite different. (Even Túrin's coloring was dark, enhancing his resemblance to the Noldorin Elves but further setting him apart from his fair-haired cousin.) The two never actually met, but Tuor did once see his cousin in passing (not an everyday occurrence in the wilds of [[Beleriand]]).

Whether the tragedies in Túrin's life were the result of Morgoth's curse or of his own arrogance, or some combination of the two, is a subject of some debate among scholars. Túrin is one of the few heroes of the [[Elder Days]] to have committed suicide and several of the others are connected to his story.

== The Many Names of Túrin ==
* ''[[Neithan]]'' = "The Wronged"
* ''[[Gorthol]]'' = "The Dread Helm"
* ''[[Agarwaen]], son of [[Úmarth]]'' = "Bloodstained, son of Ill-fate"
* ''[[Thurin]]'' = "The Secret"
* ''[[Adanedhel]]'' = "Man-Elf"
* ''[[Mormegil]]'' = "Black Sword"
* ''Turambar'' = "Master of Fate"
== Genealogy ==
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree | | | BRE | | | | HAL | | HAD | BRE=[[Bregolas]]|HAL=[[Halmir]]|HAD=[[Hador Lórindol]]}}
{{familytree | |,|-|^|-|.| | | |!| | | |!|}}
{{familytree | BEL | | BAR | | HAR |y| GAL | BEL=[[Belegund]]|BAR=[[Baragund]]|GAL=[[Galdor of Dor-lómin]]|HAR=[[Hareth]]}}
{{familytree | | | | | |!| | | |,|-|^|-|.|}}
{{familytree | | | | | MOR |y| HUR | | HUO | | |MOR=[[Morwen Eledhwen]]|HUR=[[Húrin Thalion]]|HUO=[[Huor]]}}
{{familytree | | | |,|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|.| | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | |!| | | |!| | | |!| | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | TUR | | LAL | | NIE | | | | TUR='''TÚRIN TURAMBAR'''|LAL=[[Lalaith (daughter of Húrin)|Urwen Lalaith]]|NIE=[[Nienor Níniel]]}}
{{familytree | | | |:| | | | | | | |:| | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | |L|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|J| | | | | | |}}
{{familytree/end}}
==Etymology==
See [[Túrin (disambiguation)]] and [[Turambar (disambiguation)]]

It's possible that during Túrin's lifetime ([[First Age]]), the name was pronounced as "Túrind" before simplified in the following centuries. The [[Quenya]] form is [[Túrindo]].

== Inspiration ==
Unpublished drafts of the story, later edited by [[Christopher Tolkien]] and published in ''[[Unfinished Tales]]'' and ''[[The History of Middle-earth]]'' series, tell the story in greater detail. These have been carefully edited together with other drafts to form ''[[The Children of Húrin]]'', released in 2007.

The supposed resemblance of Túrin to figures from medieval tales can be confirmed by part of a letter Tolkien wrote to [[Milton Waldman]] concerning the publication of his works:

{{quote|There is the ''Children of Húrin'', the tragic tale of Túrin Turambar and his sister Níniel — of which Túrin is the hero: a figure that might be said (by people who like that sort of thing, though it is not very useful) to be '''derived from elements in Sigurd the Volsung, Oedipus, and the Finnish Kullervo'''.|[[Letter 131]]}}

{{quote| Again one may detect certain literary influences: the hero’s [Túrin’s] fight with a great dragon [Glaurung] inevitably suggests comparison with the deeds of '''Sigurd''' and '''Beowulf''', while his unknowing incest with his sister and his subsequent suicide were derived quite consciously from the story of '''Kullervo in the Kalevala'''.|[[J.R.R. Tolkien: A Biography]]}}

Túrin shares several common traits with all of the characters below, like coming closer to their fate when attempting to evade it. Another significant trait is their gifted but hot tempered nature and strong will paired with their reluctance to heed wise counsels that would save them from their fate.
===Oedipus===
Oedipus was a prince of Thebes, but his parents gave him away in his early years to evade a prophecy about their deaths. Oedipus is not killed, but given to a childless family. He grows ignorant of his heritage, until he hears a prophecy according to which he will kill his father and marry his mother. To evade it, he leaves his foster family.

On his way, he kills a man who unknown to him, is his actual father, the King of Thebes, fulfilling therefore part of the prophecy without knowing he is a King, or his true father. Then he enters the city and after defeating the Sphinx, the people name him to replace the lost King of Thebes; furthermore, Oedipus marries the King's widow, who is in fact his mother.

Years later, while investigating the death of the former King, he realizes all the truths in his life: the King was the very man he had killed himself, and furthermore, he and his Queen, were his parents. Oedipus blinds himself and leaves in self-exile while his mother/wife strangles herself.

===Kullervo===
In the [[Kalevala]], Kullervo's tribe is killed by his uncle, and himself is separated by his family, something that fills him with hate and desire for revenge. As a slave, he uses magic to kill his masters and returns to his tribe; afterwards he seduces a girl, who commits suicide after discovering she is his lost sister.

Then he repeats his vows: he refuses to hear any words of reconsideration and gets a broadsword which he uses to slay the enemy tribe. On his return, he sees all his family dead. He asks the magic sword to slay him, which replies, and then he falls on it.

===Sigurd===
Sigurd's mother married a King and himself was fostered by a Dwarf. The Dwarf told him about the dragon Fafnir's hoard (who was his brother) and made sword for him. Sigurd slew Fafnir by waiting for him in a pit, stabbing him with the sword as he passed over it. However the gold was cursed.

{{references}}
* ''[[The Children of Húrin]]''
* ''[[Silmarillion]]'', [[Of Túrin Turambar]]
* ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', [[Of the Coming of Men into the West]]
* ''[[Unfinished Tales]]'', [[Narn i Chîn Húrin]]
* ''[[The Book of Lost Tales Part 2]]'', [[Turambar and the Foalókë]]
* ''[[The Lost Road and Other Writings]]'', [[The later Annals of Beleriand]]
* ''[[The Lost Road and Other Writings]]'', [[Quenta Silmarillion]]
* ''[[The Lost Road and Other Writings]]'', [[The Etymologies]]
* ''[[The War of the Jewels]]'', [[The Grey Annals]]
* ''[[The War of the Jewels]]'', [[The Wanderings of Húrin]]
* ''[[The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien]]'', [[Letter 131]]
* ''[[J.R.R. Tolkien: A Biography]]'' by [[Humphrey Carpenter]]

== See Also ==
* [[:Category:Images of Túrin Turambar|Images of Túrin Turambar]]
* [[The Children of Húrin]]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Turin Turambar}}
[[Category:House of Hador]]
[[Category:House of Haleth]]
[[Category:House of Bëor]]
[[de:Túrin Turambar]]
[[fi:Túrin]]

Sting

2010-06-14T22:06:35Z

Dinosaur bob: rewording/rewriting, beginning work on adding references

{{rewrite}}
[[Image:John Howe - Sting.jpg|thumb|''Sting'' by [[John Howe]].]]
'''Sting''' was an [[Elvish]] knife that was probably made in [[Gondolin]] in the [[First Age]]. Its maker and original bearer are unknown.

During the [[The_Hobbit#Synopsis|Quest of Erebor]], in [[May]] [[Third_Age_2941|2941]]<ref>{{H|2}}</ref>, [[Thorin and Company]] happened upon a trio of nasty, hungry [[Troll]]s named [[Tom]], [[Bert]], and [[William Huggins]] who nearly ate them for supper. Only the intervention of [[Gandalf]] the Grey saved the company from such a horrible fate. <ref>{{H|2}}</ref>

During the scuffle, Willaim dropped the key to their troll-cave, which contained all manner of treasure plundered from the trolls' victims. [[Bilbo Baggins]] recovered the key, allowing the company to claim the treasure in its entirety, including several fine [[Elves|Elvish]] blades. [[Glamdring]] went to Gandalf, while its mate [[Orcrist]] was claimed by [[Thorin II Oakenshield|Thorin Oakenshield]]. Bilbo, too, claimed a blade: merely a dagger by the standards of [[Men]] or its original Elvish makers, and but a tiny pocket-knife for the trolls whose hoard it was found in, but it made an excellent short sword for a [[Hobbit]]. <ref>{{H|2}}</ref>

When Bilbo was captured by [[Orc|goblins]] while crossing the [[Misty Mountains]], the goblins failed to notice the weapon simply because Bilbo wore it inside his breeches.<ref>{{H|5}}</ref> When Bilbo was separated from the others during their escape, this allowed him to rely on the dagger's glowing blade to light his way, as well as use it to keep a hungry [[Gollum]] at bay while he tried to find his way out of the labyrinthine tunnels in the roots of the mountains.<ref>{{H|5}}</ref>

The weapon remained nameless until the company reached [[Mirkwood]] and, deep in the darkness, Bilbo and his companions were beset by the forest's [[Spider|spiders]]. Awakening to find himself half-cocooned, Bilbo used the dagger to free himself and slay his attacker, the first time he had used it in battle. The act prompted him to name the weapon with the words, "I will give you a name, and I will call you ''Sting''." <ref>{{H|8}}</ref> Bilbo used the newly-christened Sting to cut the spiders' silk to free his companions, and during the ensuing battle, utilized it in combination with the [[The One Ring|magic ring]] he had found in Gollum's cave, thrown rocks, and hurled insults to help the venom-weakened dwarves fight their way out of the spiders' nest. <ref>{{H|8}}</ref>

When Bilbo returned to the [[Shire]] in [[Third_Age_2942|2942]], he brought his little dagger with him. He displayed it above the mantleplace, where it most likely was when Gandalf and [[Balin]] visited him seven years later in [[Third_Age_2949|2949]] <ref>{{H|19}}</ref>After the [[Farewell Party]] on [[September 22]], [[Third_Age_3001]], Bilbo took Sting with him when he left [[Hobbiton]], and it resided with the aged hobbit in [[Rivendell]] for the next 18 years. In [[Third_Age_3019|3019]], just before the [[Fellowship of the Ring]] set off from Rivendell, Bilbo gave Sting to his nephew [[Frodo Baggins]], as well as his wondrous coat of [[Mithril]] mail, as a gift to protect him on the perilous journey to [[Mount Doom]] that lay ahead.

As a consequence of his centuries of corruption under The One Ring's influence, Gollum feared weapons of Elvish make like Sting, which made the knife a factor in aiding Frodo in temporarily taming the wretched creature. It also helped Frodo and [[Samwise Gamgee]] escape from the lair of the terrible [[Shelob]] in [[Cirith Ungol]], and during the ensuing battle, even after paralyzing Frodo, the massive spider met its match in a determined Samwise Gamgee and learned how the Elvish weapon earned its name. Still armed with Sting, Sam stormed the [[Tower of Cirith Ungol]] in order to rescue Frodo, though he found little in the way of a fight, as the tower had seen a battle between its own forces over Frodo's mithril-mail coat.

After the defeat of Sauron at the end of the [[Third Age]], when both Bilbo and Frodo sailed across the sea to the [[Undying Lands]], Sting remained with Sam. He may have taken it with him when he, at last, followed them as was his right as the last remaining [[Ring-Bearer]], or it may have remained as an heirloom of the [[Gardner Family]].

==Special Properties==

Sting had the (apparently) magic ability to detect the presence of [[Orcs]] in its vicinity. When Orcs were nearby, it glowed blue, as it did when the Fellowship encountered Orcs in the mines of [[Moria]]. Sting also glowed in the presence of the giant spider descendants of [[Ungoliant]], such as the spiders of Mirkwood and Shelob.

Sting also performed better than ordinary weapons in combat and against odd materials; it cut through the webs of giant spiders easily, whereas the [[Daggers of Westernesse|blade]] that Sam brought from the [[Barrow Downs]] failed to cut through Shelob's webs.

==Portrayal in Adaptions==
<center>
<gallery>
Image:StingRB1977.JPG|<center>''[[The Hobbit (1977 film)|The Hobbit]]''</center>
Image:StingRB1980.JPG|<center>''[[The Return of the King (1980 film)|The Return of the King]]''</center>
</gallery></center>
'''[[1977]]: ''[[The Hobbit (1977 film)|The Hobbit]]'':'''
:Sting has a distinctive shape, with a vaguely leaf-shaped blade, round, ball-shaped pommel, featureless black hilt, and a unique guard sporting a ring in the front that the wielder's finger slips into when grasping the hilt. This version of Sting glows bright white, not blue as in the books and most other adaptations. Notably, following the Rankin/Bass adaptations' pattern of not explicitly showing violence, Sting is not shown stabbing or slashing its victims; instead, a strange fly-eye like effect is shown when Bilbo slays the giant spiders in Mirkwood, an effect that is oddly repeated when he knocks another spider off of a branch with a rock.<ref>''The Hobbit (1977 film)''</ref>

'''[[1980]]: ''[[The Return of the King (1980 film)|The Return of the King]]'':'''
:Sting's appearance is broadly similar to that in Rankin/Bass' earlier film, with some alterations; notably, the shape of the blade is changed from vaguely leaf-shaped to stout and straight-bladed, and the hilt is no longer a featureless black, but is now adorned with intricate designs.<ref>''The Return of the King (1980 film)''</ref>

'''[[2001]]-[[2003|3]]: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Motion Picture Trilogy]]'':'''
:Sting is leaf-shaped. Upon its crossguard are engraved the [[Sindarin]] words:

:[[image:sting_engraved.png]] 
::''Maegnas aen estar nin dagnir in yngyl im''

:Which is translated "Maegnas is my name, I am the spider's bane".

'''[[2003]]: ''[[The Hobbit (2003 video game)|The Hobbit]]'':'''
:Unlike the book, Sting is first seen in the Dream World stage, a sort of tutorial wherein Bilbo, after fainting during the Unexpected Party, dreams he is at the Battle of Five Armies and must fight his way through a few waves of goblins before being overwhelmed by [[Bolg]] and his guard, startling awake, and continuing the story.<ref>''The Hobbit (2003 video game)'', "Dream World"</ref> After Bilbo awakens, Sting is not seen again until the end of the Troll-Hole stage, which takes place after the encounter with Tom, Bill, and Bert like in the book. Unlike in the book, where Bilbo does not name Sting until he is in [[Mirkwood]], he gives it a name almost immediately.<ref>''The Hobbit (2003 video game)'', "Troll-hole"</ref>

{{references}}
{{weapons}}

[[Category:Weapons]]
[[Category:Swords]]

[[de:Stich]]
[[fr:encyclo:artefacts:armes:dard]]
[[fi:Piikki]]

William

2010-06-14T20:18:14Z

Dinosaur bob: Added Punctuation

'''William Huggins''' also known as '''Bill''', was with [[Tom]] and [[Bert]], one of the three trolls encountered by [[Bilbo Baggins]] and the [[Dwarves]] on their eastward journey to the [[Lonely Mountain]]. He seems to have been the leader of the troll-band - at least, it was he who led them to the woodlands of [[Trollshaws]], according to his companions. It was William's pocket that [[Bilbo Baggins]] tried to pick as his first act of 'burglary', an attempt that brought the entire expedition close to disaster. Luckily, [[Gandalf]] was able to trick William and his two companions into arguing together until sunrise, whereupon they all turned to stone.
==Etymology==
Following [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]]'s use of modern names, logically "William Huggins" would be a "translation" of the troll's "real", [[Westron]] name, which is not recorded.

There was a real historical figure named William Huggins, a pioneering astronomer of the mid-nineteenth century, though there is no apparent reason that Tolkien based his foul-mouthed troll on this noted scientist.
==External links==
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Huggins William Huggins the famous astronomer]

[[Category:Trolls]]
[[Category:Characters in The Hobbit]]
[[de:Bill Huggins]]
[[fi:Viljami (peikko)]]

Sting

2010-06-14T19:08:57Z

Dinosaur bob: Fixing the link to the Rivendell article

Lesser rings

2010-06-11T14:55:21Z

Dinosaur bob: spelling/grammar

The '''lesser rings''' were forged by the elves as essays in the craft of ring making. [[Gandalf]] mentioned these rings to [[Frodo]] when recounting the origins of the Rings of Power.<ref>{{HM|FR}}, "[[The Shadow of the Past]]"</ref>

==Portrayal in adaptations==
'''2007: ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]'':'''
:[[Narchuil]] was one of the lesser rings forged by the elven-smiths. It was worn by [[Amarthiel]].

{{references}}

[[Category:Rings and Jewels]]

Sting

2010-06-10T18:08:02Z

Dinosaur bob: Tried to clean it up a bit- go easy on me, I'm new here, so it may still need a LOT of work!

Sting

2010-06-10T16:47:23Z

Dinosaur bob: /* Portrayal in Adaptions */

File:The Return of the King (1980 film) - Sting.jpg

2010-06-10T16:02:35Z

Dinosaur bob:

[[Sting]] as it appears in [[The Return of the King (1980 film)]].

[[Category:Images_of_Sting]]
[[Category:Images_from_Rankin/Bass%27_The_Return_of_the_King]]

File:The Return of the King (1980 film) - Sting.jpg

2010-06-10T14:55:18Z

Dinosaur bob:

[[Sting]] as it appears in [[The Return of the King (1980 film)]].

[[Category:Category:Images_of_Sting]]
[[Category:Images_from_Rankin/Bass%27_The_Return_of_the_King]]

File:The Hobbit (1977 film) - Sting.JPG

2010-06-10T14:55:13Z

Dinosaur bob:

[[Sting]] as it appears in [[The Hobbit (1977 film)]].

[[Category:Images_of_Sting]]
[[Category:Images_from_Rankin/Bass%27_The_Hobbit]]

File:The Hobbit (1977 film) - Gollum.jpg

2010-06-10T14:55:03Z

Dinosaur bob: Noticed this was missing a rather obvious category...

[[Category:Images of Gollum]]
[[Category:Images_from_Rankin/Bass%27_The_Hobbit]]

File:The Return of the King (1980 film) - Sting.jpg

2010-06-10T14:47:18Z

Dinosaur bob: Sting as it appears in The Return of the King (1980 film).

[[Sting]] as it appears in [[The Return of the King (1980 film)]].

File:The Hobbit (1977 film) - Sting.JPG

2010-06-10T14:43:32Z

Dinosaur bob: Sting as it appears in The Hobbit (1977 film).

[[Sting]] as it appears in [[The Hobbit (1977 film)]].

User talk:Ederchil

2010-06-10T01:51:06Z

Dinosaur bob: /* Adaptation info- how much is TOO much in an article? */ new section

{{usertalk}}
{| align="right"
| __TOC__
|}
<center>
=Archive=
'''[[User talk:Ederchil/2008|January 12, 2008 - December 19, 2008]]''' 
'''[[User talk:Ederchil/2009|January 9, 2009 - December 23, 2009]]'''
=2010=
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== My Bot ==

Hi Ederchil, is it possible you could add [[User:Mithbot]] to the [[Special:ListUsers&group=bot|bot usergroup]] (no idea why that's a redlinks: it works for me) so I can do some menial and boring tasks quickly? Thanks, --{{User:Mith/sig}} 19:50, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

:I'm only a sysop, not a [[wikipedia:WP:BUR|bureaucrat]], so I can't change user group rights. You could PM or email Hyarion for this. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 20:50, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

::Oh, OK, I thought you were (wishful thinking!). Thanks anyway! --{{User:Mith/sig}} 21:57, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

:::Actually, I thought I was too :) -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 22:21, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

== Main page spelling mistake ==

Hello - while using this wiki, I noticed that main page's featured article has a spelling mistake. It should be '''borne''' not ''born'' in the sentence "Glamdring was the sword once born by Turgon, King of Gondolin." I can't edit the page! :) [[User:Darth Newdar|Darth Newdar]] 17:27, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

:Thank you. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 21:40, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

== The Peril to the Shire page ==

Just wanted to know why you keep editing the page I'm building on "The Peril to the Shire". I worked rather hard on it, yet you keep re-arranging and deleting stuff. It would be nice if you asked first, or at least let me know what you are up to.

Doug Dunklin, producer/director of "The Peril to the Shire"
"[[User:Ltcdunk|Ltcdunk]] 20:29, 19 January 2010 (UTC)"

:I figured you were involved in production. First of all, thank you for contributing.

:I basically rearranged a lot to make it fit our [[TG:MOS|Manual of Style]] and deleted a lot because it was (in my eyes) repetition. Also, a lot of text in long sentences does not improve readability, and detracts attention from your own website (we don't want to be ''too'' complete now, do we?). --{{User:Ederchil/sig}} 16:04, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

== An image page won't load ==
I was trying to load the entry page for [[:Image:Middle-earth (large).jpg]], and all I get from the server is an empty page. I reloaded repeatedly, and I still get an empty page. I tried other images in [[:Category:Non-canon maps|the category I found it in]], and many other pages load fine. But this page won't. A couple others won't too—I suspect that the large file size may have something to do with it, but that's just a guess. Maybe the server is failing to generate a thumbnail for images that size? I just don't know. - [[User:Gilgamesh|Gilgamesh]] 17:07, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

:I'm not really having trouble with the image itself, but I think you're referring to [[MERP: Middle-earth Role Playing Poster Maps]], the page on which it is embedded. I have the same issue. I managed to sneak into the history via [[User:Morgan|Morgan]]'s contributions and removed the image (resizing it gave problems again). -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 21:50, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Now an entire ''category'' page won't load, and I didn't exactly embed images into the page body either. o.o [[:Category:Maps of Minas Tirith]]. It displayed mostly alright after I created it, but now the category page is just a white blank, like some of the image pages. Is it possible that MediaWiki or one of its backend programs is running out of memory? Or another kind of error? How do we fix this kind of thing? - [[User:Gilgamesh|Gilgamesh]] 09:32, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

:Apparently a new image problem, "Error creating thumbnail: Invalid thumbnail parameters". Don't know about the category. i'll see if I can email Hyarion about this. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 14:24, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

::I've seen that problem before, on Wikia. The problem is, an image has too many millions of pixels to buffer into memory to create a thumbnail. It doesn't matter if the file itself is small—if it has very large dimensions, the thumbnail backend software runs out of memory trying to generate a thumbnail for it. This can be fixed by increasing the amount of memory it's permitted to allocate, if that is possible. I've been thinking that memory increase may greatly benefit the particular Tolkien interest that involves very highly-detailed maps, as Tolkien is full of those. Either that or we split up some of the largest images into multiple segmented image files. That'll be easy for PNGs, but not for JPEGs. Recently I uploaded some very large maps, including one of Middle-earth (Role-playing Game canon, I think), and another absolutely gorgeous non-canon map of Minas Tirith (which may have been involved in making that category page show blank). It would be a shame if those couldn't be displayed. - [[User:Gilgamesh|Gilgamesh]] 14:53, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

[[:Image:Minas Anor 2000.jpg‎]] is the new Minas Tirith map I uploaded. (It's fantastic, don't you think?) It's the only Minas Tirith image of the new maps I recently uploaded, and it almost certainly is related to the page [[:Category:Maps of Minas Tirith]] showing blank now. 
Honestly, Tolkien wiki has hundreds of wonderful maps, and it would be in our interests to be able to display all of them, even the very large files or the images of very large dimensions. - [[User:Gilgamesh|Gilgamesh]] 15:01, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

==Anna Lee==
Sorry about the peacock-term "beautiful". - [[User:Gilgamesh|Gilgamesh]] 15:10, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

:No problem. Though I do agree, it's just not encyclopedic. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 16:26, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

== On the future of dictionary-style entries ==

There has been a recent heavy debate on this at [[Forum:Quenya declension template appearance]]. Since you have weighed on this before, could you weigh in now? I originally went ahead with this project after asking about it, and you seemed to approve. To be honest, my concern is mainly linguistic and grammatical, and I didn't want to get so involved in a debate about whether linguistics on this wiki are at all even noteworthy. - [[User:Gilgamesh|Gilgamesh]] 01:35, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

:Sorry, my attention tends to drop away with long paragraphs and no images :), so I didn't respond. Will do now. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 13:54, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

::Thank you for your feedback. You always seem like a gentle voice of wisdom here and I appreciate it. - [[User:Gilgamesh|Gilgamesh]] 18:11, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

== Withdrawing inflection templates ==

Considering the highly-controversial and sometimes flame-war-bait nature of trying to fully inflect Tolkien's languages in this wiki, I want to withdraw the entire inflection project. But I'm not sure how to do it. I think it would involve deleting all the embedded templates and "Inflection" sections. But considering the heavy time and energy I put into it all, it may take about as much just to remove them. I just don't know how to get it done quickly. But I want to get this all behind me and away from this controversy. And I swear, swear, ''swear'' that I didn't have a clue about the elvish.org vs. Ardalambion controversies, etc. My primary source of all data was Ardalambion and closely associated sites. I didn't know there was such a heated holy war involved in the issue. I think I would generally agree with Ardalambion (elvish.org's FAQs sound really stuck-up to my inner anti-copyright liberal socialistic streak), but I don't want to be on the front lines of this—I don't want to be confrontational, not on purpose. I'd rather practice the fan-standardized aspects of the languages in my private user pages or other informal venues, and only practice harder data in the articles. Ederchil, please help me. Are there any more powerful wiki tools (bots, etc.) we can use to clean this up? I have to make this right. - [[User:Gilgamesh|Gilgamesh]] 05:12, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

:It's a pity, because you've certainly put lots of time in the process. But you could blame us in a way; we should've responded earlier.
:We do have bots, though I fear this kind of job would have to be done by hand. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 08:15, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

::Ouch. Well, at least they're all marked with "inflection" (an easily searchable word), and the templates are currently hidden from display (but near "inflection" making them easy to edit). I suppose this is a job that could be done gradually over time...if everyone pitched in, I mean. It's just...well...I want to get past the issue, very much so. I want to get past potential future forum postings of "what are all these invisible templates and why are they all over the place"? I cringe thinking of that. And I feel like having a wikistress attack when I search "inflection" and see hundreds of results that are all my work. I wish there were an easier way through this. - [[User:Gilgamesh|Gilgamesh]] 09:21, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I just removed one search page's worth. About 19 or 20. And then I clicked "500", and it refreshed the first page, and...there are ''more'' than 500. How on earth did I embed so many in seemingly such a short time? I've ruined your wiki. :( - [[User:Gilgamesh|Gilgamesh]] 09:58, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

:It's not mine, so it's okay :). I'll see if I can do some of them. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 10:13, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

::I know you don't ''own'' it, but you are a sysadmin. It's practically yours. You have so much work to do here as it is, and I'm certainly no help. I mean, I do...maybe...IPA, categories, userboxes, navboxes... ...oh. Well, I guess I've done ''something''. And then I filled half the wiki with controversial inflections. I have this feeling like I'm a small child who's been caught covering the walls of an entire house with crayon. This all would be hilarious if it weren't all so...inconveniencing to people. XD - [[User:Gilgamesh|Gilgamesh]] 10:34, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I've removed some more inflections (a few dozen, maybe), and now there are less than 500 articles with the word "inflection" in them. I've been working from the opposite end of the search results, so that I wouldn't step on your toes in case you were working from the top of the list. - [[User:Gilgamesh|Gilgamesh]] 21:45, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

:I just want to apologise. I didn't intend for all of these to be removed in their entirety, there was definitely something there worth having, just probably not in its current appearance or scale. Does that make sense? I am sorry, though, you've felt the need to remove the lot.

:If [[User:Mithbot|Mithbot]] had been approved by [[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] (where is he?!) I would get it to do all this work on (y)our behalf. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 11:21, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

::Since Hyarion finished school and has a job, he has found himself having less and less time for the internet.
::I think it's better to do it manually, actually, because it also gives you the opportunity to clean the articles up a bit. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 11:28, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

::It won't be a complete loss. Once all the templates are removed, someone can go back and make a brief note about Quenya nouns' stem forms and Sindarin nouns' special conditions (like whether a noun that begins with b/d/g mutates like b/d/g or like mb/nd/ng), and also notes regarding Sindarin plurals and Quenya irregular plurals (that may have just been fickle because of Tolkien changing his mind at least once). Then, if you ''believe'' in regular rules, you can read them and ascertain inflections for yourself.
::Anyway, Mith, I'm also sorry for grating on your nerves before. You can read my final explanation on my chronically abnormal way of communication at the forum post where we did most of our talking. I'm always going to be very strange to talk to, and I don't want you grated or anything (I never did in the first place), but I'm hoping you can at least acclimate to it and see my good faith, even if most times I have no common sense.
::And if you need your bot approved, and Hyarion is not available to provide approval, then does anyone (perhaps Ederchil) have the authority to (at least tentatively) approve it? - [[User:Gilgamesh|Gilgamesh]] 18:49, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

:::Nope. I'm not a bureaucrat. See above. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 21:37, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

::::Mith, you don't ''have'' to have your bot user made into an official bot for it to work; the only thing it will do is hide the bot's edits from the recent changes page - so if the other contributors don't mind it clogging up the recent changes page, I'm sure you could use it. ;) --{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 11:34, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

== MediaWiki memory limit ==

I read on various MediaWiki support sites that the reason categories and image pages with very large images (in file size or dimensions) show a blank page is because of a PHP error caused by running out of memory. Since Tolkien Gateway is never going to have a shortage of highly-detailed high-resolution maps, is it possible we could ask Hyarion to increase the wiki's memory limit? Perhaps to 64MB or more? - [[User:Gilgamesh|Gilgamesh]] 05:18, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

:I don't know yet when I'll mail him, but I'll ask him. You can also mail him yourself, of course :). -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 08:46, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

::I didn't know how to contact him. Besides, he and I have never been acquainted in a wiki-working interaction. I'd be a stranger who was feature-begging. - [[User:Gilgamesh|Gilgamesh]] 20:55, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

:::I have so much free time now (a cold took my voice away and a sprained ankle) that I keep forgetting to mail him. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 22:19, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

== Main Page ==

Hi, could you make another article the next improvement drive article? I think [[Barad-dûr]] has improved quite much and although the "Portrayal in adaptations" section lacks some information about the earlier films I think that we should take the next article on the Main Page. What do you think?
A few suggestions: [[Angband]], [[Battle of Dagorlad]], [[Bywater]], [[Dale]], [[Glaurung]], [[Peter Jackson]], [[Mount Doom]], [[Treebeard]], [[Tuor]] -- [[User:Eldarion Telcontar|Eldarion Telcontar]] 23:23, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

:I've been meaning to do the Adaptations section but I keep forgetting. Since I only now realize I'm already already half an hour into Sunday, let me just say I'll do it this afternoon.

:As for the new one, my vote's for [[Tuor]]. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 23:27, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

::I was just about to suggest Tuor! Great minds... --{{User:Mith/sig}} 00:13, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

:::Great! Then let's take Tuor. -- [[User:Eldarion Telcontar|Eldarion Telcontar]] 08:49, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

== Games ==

hey

Ringen is a LOTR-game. So maybe the link has to stay on the games-year article.

--[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 17:13, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

:Already reverted it. I'm busy cleaning everything up. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 17:14, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
:: okay, I'm adding the game called Shadowfax here. --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 17:15, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

== .mp3 ==

How can you upload .mp3, because I tried to upload a mp3-file and didn't work, it said it was the wrong file.

En zou de grootte van het bestand kunnen verhoogd, voor een dag ofzo. Dan kan ik een paar liedjes van Blind Guardian uploaden zodat ze gelijk te beluisteren zijn. --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 14:00, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

:Hele liedjes is geen fair use. .ogg en .mp3 zouden gewoon moeten werken - er staan er al [[:Category:Pronunciations|heel wat op de wiki]]. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 14:10, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

== My Source ==

Ok, you recently sent me a message explaining why you ''deleted'' (not very grateful about that) the pages I wrote.

Well, my source is a book I checked out a few weeks ago (before I discovered this site) called something like "Tolkien's World". It explained the history of Arda, but was not writen by any member of the Tolkien family, but by a close "associate", so I don't know how accurate it is.

The pages I wrote is based on a series of maps within the books, the first being a ''complete'' map of Arda, witch was divided into four continents: Aman, Hyarmenor, Middle-Earth and Eastland. Middle-Earth was inturn divided into Endor (the northern half) and Harad (the southern half).

After that map, there were five more maps - one of Aman, Hyarmenor, Eastland, Endor and Harad. The map of Endor realy grabbed my attention, because is showed the region of Middle-Earth (in detail!) east of Rhûn. Apparently, Rhûn goes on untill the Red Mountains (labelled "Orocarni") and an unnamed river that flows north-south from there down into the Enegaer (Inner Sea - can not believe that this site does not name it). This region is labelled "Rómen" (with "The East Lands" writen below in brackets - should not be confused with the ''continent'' "Eastland"). The region of Rohan, Rhûn and Rhovanion (everything between the Misty (I think) and Red Mountains) is labeled "Central Endor".

The map also names the north most region "Formenor" with "The Northern Waste" writen below in brackets (like with Rómen - this probably implies that the region has an alternative name).

After looking around in Google images, I managed to find a version of the full map of Arda, though it is coloured differently and is labeled unlike in the book:

[[image:John Ohara - Arda in the Second Age.jpg|right|150px]]
Middle-Earth is dreadfully mis-labeled, though. The "Formenor", "Endor" and "Harad" labels are correct (though Endor and Harad should be writen larger to show that they are the names of a group of regions). Also, "Hither Lands" wasn't writen there. Instead, "Middle-Earth" was writen in the centre of the continent in large letters.

Everything else is basically exactly as shown on the map in the book. I was unable to find the exact map or the detailed maps of the conitinents.

Do you think that counts as a reliable source? -- [[User:Explorer of Arda|Explorer of Arda]] 19:16, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

:You're going to have to be a bit more specific - there's at least six books going by the name "[[Tolkien's World (disambiguation)|Tolkien's World]]". I know for a fact that it's not in Helms' book or ''Paintings of Middle-earth''. I haven't read Day's books, but he has a reputation for making stuff up. None of the authors are "close associates" of the Tolkien family. It wouldn't have mattered either way.

:The only full World map Tolkien made can be found in "[[The Shaping of Middle-earth]]". It does not contain the names "Formenor" or "Eastland". A quick google search on either term only results in fan fic sites. They're not in the index of ''[[The History of Middle-earth]]'', the ''Reader's Companion'', or the "major" reference works by [[Robert Foster]] and [[J.E.A. Tyler]].

:As in terms of reliable, if it's not primary (i.e. by Tolkien himself) it's ''caveat lector''. If it cites a source, double check. If it doesn't, double check anyway. Can't find it? Don't add it. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 18:35, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

::Ah. But I just want to know something. This site doesn't mention the Eastern or Inner Sea (as far as I know of) at all, though they appear in the inacurate map suplied. I know that there are some pages on this site with something at the top that says the page is speculative/inaccurate, so couldn't the pages relating to the above mentioned regions/seas be topped with that? -- [[User:Explorer of Arda|Explorer of Arda]] 19:16, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

:::I think you mean [[:Template:Noncanon|this template]]. That's for stuff from ''The History of Middle-earth''. Meaning it did come from Tolkien, but he abandoned or revised the concept, or it doesn't fit into later work. Or [[:Template:Fanon|this template]], which concerns wide-spread fanon and unlicensed adaptations. Or [[:template:Adaptation|this one]], for licensed adaptations like movies, games and [[MERP]]. But without the source, I can't tell if it's any of them. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 19:07, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

:::P.S. You can sign by typing four tildes: <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>

::::Yes. That's what I mean.

::::Oh, and thanks for the tip! ^^

::::Anyway, do you know if Tolkien ever made a complete map like that? if so, I'd love to see it. For now, I think I'll keep the fanon version of Arda in my own augmented reality of it. -- [[User:Explorer of Arda|Explorer of Arda]] 19:16, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

:::::The only thing closely resembling a map is a pencil sketch in ''[[The Shaping of Middle-earth]]''. The shapes of the continents are consistent with the map above, but it's a very rough sketch, nowhere near as detailed as the other maps. [[:Image:Arda001.gif|Here it is.]]

:::::Also, I deleted your image as it turns out it was already uploaded. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 19:26, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

::::::That's fine. I've allready saved the image to my PC! ^^

::::::As for the pencil-map, I see that it must be from a time quite a while before the third age, since Beleraid is still there, the Sea of Helcar hasn't dried up yet and the Misty Mountains haven't formed yet. Harad, Hyemenor, Eastland and Aman are basically the same, though.

::::::You sea the mountain range running north-south east of the Sea of Helcar (the inland sea in the middle of Middle-Earth)? Those are the Red Mountains. East of that (apparently) lies Rómen and west of that lies what is to become the regions of Middle-Earth seen in The Lord of the Rings.

::::::The sea that separates Middle-Earth from Hyemenor (aka The Dark Land) is (apparently) called ''Enegaer'' (the "Inner Sea"), while the sea that separates Middle-Earth and Hyemanor from Eastland (the cresent-shaped continent to the far east) is called the "East Sea".

::::::Say, now that I come to think of it, does this site have pages on how the Misty Mountains were formed? Because (according to the map you provided) there was once a time when they didn't yet exist. -- [[User:Explorer of Arda|Explorer of Arda]] 19:40, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

The Misty Mountains were formed by Morgoth, hoping to delay the Elves on their great march West. That was after Aulë created all the other mountains. The map shows Arda at its creation. No other full world maps exist.

I know where the Orocarni are; it's just that Hyarmenor, Romen and Enegaer are unattested in Tolkien's own work. They're later fabrications by I don't know whom. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 19:44, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

:Of course! *Facepalm* I knew that!

:Anyway, so Tolkien origionally left those regions unnamed? Did he atleast name the ''seas''? I know he atleast named the Outer and Great Seas, but I want to know if he also named The East and Inner Seas (the "Inner Sea" being Enegaer). -- [[User:Explorer of Arda|Explorer of Arda]] 19:57, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

::The East Sea is the sea between Harad and the Dark Land. The Sea between the Dark Land and the Walls of the Sun is not named. I can't find any indication that Tolkien came up with "Inner Sea" or "Enegaer". -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 20:05, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

:::Ah. Guese the auther of the book I read (aswell as the map) realy ''did'' make stuff up. A shame, realy. It's also quite a shame that Tolkien never finished the naming prosses, but, meh, we can leave that to his decendants.

:::Well, that's all I need to know. Thanks! ^^ -- [[User:Explorer of Arda|Explorer of Arda]] 20:16, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

::::There's also a map in [[The Book of Lost Tales]] 1. But thats a verry old map, and not canon. The only place with isn't renamed is Cuivienen. However its fanon, it would be funny to read. --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 18:20, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

== 8000+ ==

Tomorrow or today we'll probably have 8000+ pages! Keep up the good administrative (and all other) work, Ederchil! --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 23:54, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

:You keep up the actual editing ;) -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 07:43, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

yeah, we have 8000 articles. Hopely we once get bigger than the wookie-pedia, hopely it wouldn't be as much a mess as there. If I see that there, there is almost no canon there. They use books with are not of George Lucas, the inventor. --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 18:23, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

:The Expanded Universe is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is.
:WookieePedia has a lot more articles, and personal taste in canon aside, it is a well-kept wiki with lots of sysops and editors. It's even more bureaucratic than Wikipedia. Three seconds after some anon creates a new page, three editors have wookieefied it.
:This wiki still needs work, though. A lot of characters miss categories, sources, are straight rips from Wikipedia, need images, or otherwise a major update. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 18:30, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
::but its the expanded universum, expanded by other people. I think thats uncanon. I know its realy big, but your rigth I can't say how big it is. LOTR idem tito, however it is still smaller because the Tolkien Estate deosn't want more authors of the work, while George Lucas doesn't care. (or am I wrong?) --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 19:03, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

== Idea ==

Maybe its a idea to add the voices of actors who speak memorable quotes (like "I see you" from Sauron) by adaptions. Or is that against fair use. --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 18:26, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

:I'm not sure I get what you mean. You mean sound files? They're okay, we already have some of those uploaded. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 18:32, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

==Categories==
Something which often confuses me when creating pages is that some categories have initial capitals on some words. For example, we have "Images of Authors", "Images of Merchandise"; but on the other hand we have "Images of books" and "Sindarin locations". By now I've memorized some of the variations (since "Images of Books", e.g., will yield a red link), but do we have a standard for how to write categories? --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 08:48, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

:No, but we probably should. I favor the non-capital version if ti comes up for a vote. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 10:38, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

==Standards for bibliography==

Where can I find the standards for how to write a bibliography on Tolkien Gateway? Thanks / --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 20:11, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

:There's not really a standard. I usually just use 
* Year: ''Title'' (editor or something) 
for books and 
* Year: ''Magazine Title'' #issue
** "Article" 
for articles. See [[Tom Shippey]] for a long example. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 20:17, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

==Spams==

That was quick! I thought the hour was late, but your eyes weren't far away! ;-) BTW, seems like the spammers are quite active right now, sometimes you feel like writing angry emails to the companies that hire spamming services (like the Bluemountain Trips, or whatever their names were). Cheers/--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 21:42, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

:Na, wasted effort. They won't listen. They're just a nuisance, as the links aren't picked up by search engines.

:Just be glad neautograph hasn't popped up yet. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 21:48, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

==Deletion request==

Is it possible for you to check the page "A Long Expected Party: MECCG Sites & Scenarios"? It's still left in Category:Books, but the page doesn't exist. --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 20:52, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

:It's the ampersand problem again. Will check it out. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 20:56, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

::Thank you! --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 21:12, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

== Deleted question ==

The question about the Angus McBride picture was because I wanted to know who else was in there besides Galadriel. I have never be able to figure it out, despite how much I read.

Was my question wrongly put? Should I not ask such things?

Thank you. - Kementari02

:I've deleted so many things over the past few weeks that I can't quite remember what you're talking about. What image was this about? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 21:10, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

::I assume you mean this pic: "Image:Angus McBride - Galadriel.gif"? If so, then it is a fanon scenario. You find a description of the other characters in the art/rpg book ''[[Angus McBride's Characters of Middle-earth]]'', published by MERP. (Maybe move this thread to the forum?) --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 21:32, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. That answers my question. - Kementari02

==Writings, books, essays, etc.==

Ederchil, I've been examining the Cat:Writings, and it's quite difficult to know how to handle it. Right now, it contains anything written by JRRT which it's not published separately (in general). The idea of the category is of course good, but I find a couple of questions and thoughts:
#Should the category only include JRRT material (the cat, e.g., included [[Epic Pooh]], although I recatted it to "Published articles" for the moment)?
#If not, do we need a "...by J.R.R. Tolkien" for every sub-cat? I guess the more TG expand, the more "writings" by other authors will need to be categorized.
#Perhaps we should state that the cat only contains writings which haven't appeared in a publication on their own (or published under their own title)?
#The head-cat for Cat:Writings should be Cat:Real-world, and perhaps stating in Cat:Publications that this category only contains media published separately with a title of their own (or something like that).
Thanks for you time/--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 21:41, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

:I'd go for "Published articles by J.R.R. Tolkien" as a sub cat. Re: 3, yes. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 21:50, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

::I've been moving some book chapters from the head-category "Writings". However, as it's a big difference of the (related) chapters of, e.g., ''The Lord of the Rings'', and the chapters of, e.g., ''The History of Middle-earth books'' (as these often are a presentation of a single manuscript), I created the Cat:Manuscripts. --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 23:13, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

==Books portal==

May I change the intro to "Welcome to the Books gateway, here you will find links and information relating to any and all publications relating to J.R.R. Tolkien and his works."? ''Books'' is too specific a word for all the info we've so far covered on Tolkien Gateway. I thought I'd ask first since it's one of the main pages of TG --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 19:48, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

:Go ahead. I hope it fits on the line. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 20:01, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

==Talk:Tar-Elendil==
Is there a way to lock [[:Talk:Tar-Elendil]] from being edited? It appears it has been the target of a spam bot. --[[User:Pinkkeith|Pinkkeith]] 19:09, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

:When the spamming first started, I protected all spammed pages and blocked all spammers, but that didn't seem to help much. It merely shifted the spam to other pages. I'd rather have them make a useless talk page 7 times a day than having to revert or delete higher profile pages. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 20:52, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

==Youtube==
I noticed that the <nowiki><youtube></nowiki> command is either bugged or taken out. If it has been taken out could you let me know, please? I can remove it from some of the LOTRO articles. Thanks. --[[User:Pinkkeith|Pinkkeith]] 19:09, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

:Yeah, it's a problem on more wiki's. For now, I think it's best to just put the video's between <nowiki></nowiki> tags, so it'll be easier to revert once it works again. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 20:52, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

== Concerning S.R.T.O. d'Ardenne ==

"S.R.T.O." seems to be the name she used most, and by which is referred to in scholarly books (like J.R.R. Tolkien, we don't write John Tolkien). --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 14:55, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
‎
::On a second thought, "Simonne d'Ardenne" is used both in ''The Tolkien Family Album'', and by Johan Vanhecke in "Tolkien and Belgium" in ''Lembas Extra: Proceedings of the 5th Unquendor Lustrum''. I'll create a new page and redirect "S.R.T.O. d'Ardenne".--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 23:57, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

== Dates and Rock-roses ==

Hello Ederchil; two quick things:-

#What are [[Rock-roses]]? (I see you added them to [[Rose (disambiguation)]] yet I have no idea what they are.)
#I've just made [[Template:SR]]; I was wondering whether you thought it was worthwhile changing it (or making a separate template) so that is displays converted dates, rather than simply linking to them, as well? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 16:07, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

:# "yellow rock-roses" are mentioned in "[[Out of the Frying-Pan into the Fire]]". See also [[wikipedia:Cistaceae|here]].
:# I like the template. I think something along the lines of "[[Shire Reckoning|S.R.]] [[Third Age 3000|1400]] ({{TA|3000}})" could work. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 16:43, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

::# A-ha! Thanks.
::# Thanks - hopefully it will save people having to (sometimes incorrectly) calculate dates themselves. Couldn't doing that get a bit messy, though? I think that could look very untidy, particularly in infoboxes. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 17:21, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
::::2. I think it would look better in infoboxes, but not in situations like [[Rose (disambiguation)|these]], so I now favour the short version. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 18:04, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

:::::2. Great! If it makes you feel more comfortable, on my to-do list is a template which displays Shire Reckoning dates on the individual year pages so when people click on, e.g. SR 1400 they're not too confused when they see they've got TA 3000. (This is for when I get off disambiguation pages and back onto dates.) --{{User:Mith/sig}} 21:37, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

::::::It'll be long work, but all year pages probably need a header of sorts, like the real worlds years. It could include an automated option for SR, of course. Probably need #explode for that. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 21:54, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

:::::::I've just been playing around in my sandbox and I don't think we have the requisite extension installed: #explode (or, my other option, #sub) doesn't seem to do anything at all, which throws a pretty big spanner in the works. Unless I'm doing something wrong? (My current rough code is: <nowiki>{{#ifexpr: {{#explode:{{PAGENAME}}| |-1}}>=1601 | This is the equivalent of the year {{#expr: {{#explode:{{PAGENAME}}| |-1}} - 1600}} in [[Shire Reckoning]]. }}</nowiki>)

:::::::Re: spam. Well done on keeping on top of all the spam; I've been dipping in and out whenever I can to try and help but, alas, there is only so much I can do.--{{User:Mith/sig}} 21:06, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

::::::::I'm getting a bit tired of it, really. And it's nearing bed time, I don't want to know what I wake up with tomorrow.
::::::::Got a reply from Hyarion, he would try to increase the Captcha requirements "this afternoon". But he's on Pacific Time, so that's gotta be soon now.
::::::::If he pops by, ask him about #explode and #sub. The StringFunctions extension is required for that to work. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 21:20, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

==Anti-spam strategies==

Not sure if I can be of any help concerning the attack storm of today, but I just wanted to recommend [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Anti-spam_features Mediawiki Anti-spam features]. Do we have any of these features enabled? --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 10:05, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

:I emailed Hyar about it, but still don't have a response. I'll see If I can think of something, because today's horrible. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 10:09, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
:Sent him another one. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 10:16, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

::Great! Let us know if something gets implemented - it would be interesting to see if it has any effect. --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 23:40, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

==Siege of Mirkwood==
The expansion known as Lord of the Rings Online: Siege of Mirkwood did include the final book to Volume II: Mines of Moria. Also, the expansion Lord of the Rings Online: Mines of Moria included the final book to Volume I: Shadows of Angmar. Turbine makes you buy the next expansion in order to complete the previous one. It is a marketing tool to get you to buy it. Siege of Mirkwood is an expansion in its own right and not sololy the final book to Mines of Moria. --[[User:Pinkkeith|Pinkkeith]] 21:22, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

==Years before JRR's birth==
Is there a consensus on TG to not include year pages before JRRT's birth? I was on my way to add the birth of Charles Williams when I discovered this detail of the year pages. --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 23:40, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

:If you want to, go ahead. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 05:44, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

== Ad Nonsense ==

You probably won't find my contributions worthwhile at all then. (I see what you are doing here.)

It would be against tale logic for Entwives to be lost forever. The sadder the story, the more pressing somebody will feel the urge to amend.{{unsigned|Wasdf}}

:Still not making sense. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 21:13, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

::It's more like interpretations and guesswork. You may basically remove my username altogether.{{unsigned|Wasdf}}

:::Interpretations of what?
:::Also, it's impossible to remove an account. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 06:30, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

== Adaptation info- how much is TOO much in an article? ==

Having browsed Tolkien Gateway for several years prior to joining as an editor, I'm familiar with its book-heavy leaning, and wanted to make sure going in that I knew how much information on the adaptations was appropriate to put in "Appearance in Adaptation"-type sections of articles. In particular, I've always been a big fan of the Rankin/Bass animated adaptations, and I noticed the Sting article has nothing on its appearance in those in it, and that's what prompted me joining. But before I added that information in, I wanted to make sure I knew how much information on sources other than the books themselves was TOO much, so I don't go overboard and make the more knowledgeable and experienced editors have to waste time they could spend on more important things cleaning up after me. Wouldn't exactly be the most GLORIOUS start to a career editing here, now, would it? [[User:Dinosaur bob|Dinosaur bob]] 01:51, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

User:Dinosaur bob

2010-06-10T01:17:14Z

Dinosaur bob: New page: Hey there! Just call me Bob for short, if the whole username's too long. I'm 24, going on 25, and in college currently headed for an Associates of Science, but hopefully eventually a degre...

Hey there! Just call me Bob for short, if the whole username's too long. I'm 24, going on 25, and in college currently headed for an Associates of Science, but hopefully eventually a degree in Vertebrate Paleontology somewhere down the line. I'm not exactly the most knowledgeable Tolkien fanatic out there, but having browsed Tolkien Gateway for ages now, I felt I could at least try to OCCASIONALLY contribute!

User talk:Dinosaur bob

2010-06-10T01:06:16Z

Dinosaur bob: Adding welcome message to new user's talk page