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Talk:House of Hador

2025-11-01T19:43:37Z

Erendis: /* Tallest save the Elves ? */

==Family tree==
I just wanted to check, that the rest of the family tree will be added in due course? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:35, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

:Yes, I was planning on that, but I wasn't sure how to add characters in the family tree. Is there a page where that is explained? --[[User:DoctorWellington|DoctorWellington]] 15:01, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

:Well, I tried it, but I couldn't fix [[Rían]]'s box. --[[User:DoctorWellington|DoctorWellington]] 15:41, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

::Make sure you put the spaces in around the names and that the width of each row is the same. If you look at how I've edited it you'll see what I mean. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 16:16, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

:::Thanks for the tips! I only figured it out through try-and-check, by clicking "Show preview" a bunch of times, so it couldn't be perfect. --[[User:DoctorWellington|DoctorWellington]] 14:32, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

==The canonicity of "House of Marach"==

I have an issue regarding the use of the term "House of Marach". As I understand from what I've read from Tolkien's works, I have yet to see the term being used within his works. The only times where he refers to the noble family, he refers to them as the "Third House of the Edain" or "House of Hador". Now I understand that there were prominent members of the same family before Hador himself who gave his name to the house but I haven't seen Marach give his name to the House itself. He has given his name to the general people of this race, specifically the term "Folk of Marach". Now one important note to make is that the noble family is distinguished from the general people who followed the house. For instance, "Third House of the Edain" is used to designate those of the actual ruling family and terms such as "Folk of Marach" are used to designate the culture of people who followed the before-mentioned house. Therefore, in the infoboxes pertaining to the members of this House prior to Hador himself, it's not neccesarily proper to give their House designation as "House of Marach" (a non-canon term). A more suitable term would be "Third House of the Edain". Any thoughts regarding this matter?--[[User:Tolkienator|Tolkienator]] 21:40, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

:You are correct about the "House of Marach", I properly replaced the term in all the articles. However, Tolkien usually applied the same terms both to the ruling family and to its followers when talking about any "House of". For example, in this case the "folk of Marach" was later known as the "House of Hador" (WJ:234). About the article name, the wiki uses the term that is mainly known to the readers. --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 17:48, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

::Although I agree with the use of "folk of Marach" when addressing the culture and the people of that group of Edain, the term "House" in the legendarium always refers to a specific family and is not assigned to the general people who followed the family. Therefore, I believe that it is more appropriate to assign the term "Third House of the Edain" to all members of the "House of Hador" that predated Hador with a note addressing the fact that the term "House of Hador" only applied to those of the family from Hador's generation and beyond.--[[User:Tolkienator|Tolkienator]] ([[User talk:Tolkienator|talk]]) 19:28, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

==Tallest save the Elves ?==

Someone could tell me where we can find a source for this : "They were marked as being the tallest men inhabitants of Beleriand save the Elves" ?

For I've found the opposite in HOME 5 p276 (Quenta Silmarillion §130) : "They were of greater strength and stature in body than the Elves" and nothing to contradict.
Beside, the Numenoreans are also taller than the Elves in the §3 of the 2nd and 3rd version of the Fall of Numenor (HOME 5 and HOM 9) : "$3. And in the wearing of time the people of Numenor grew great and glorious, in all things more like the Firstborn than any other races of Men that have been; yet less fair and wise than the Elves, though greater in stature." [[User:Erendis|Erendis]] 09:21, 8 May 2022 (UTC)Erendis

:You are using old passages from the 30s or beggining of LotR writings that not necessary fit all the later narratives. Tolkien went back to write the Elders Days in the 50s and to polish LotR. His ideas on height had already changed.
:You can see passages like this: - ''"... For the Noldor indeed were tall as are in the latter days men of great might and majesty..."'' from THoME, vol 11, circa 1951.
:Even the ones you mentioned are from different "building" versions (1940 or 41) where the last one you see Chris use It in The Silmarillion, which is different from the ones you are mentioning. The last part ''"...yet less fair and wise than the Elves, though greater in stature..."'' does not exist in later version that was used in The Silmarillion.
:He maintained that in Of Dwarves and Men, TPoME (1969), where he says:
:''<nowiki/>'They were called “halflings”; but this refers to the normal height of men of Númenórean descent and of the '''Eldar (especially those of Ñoldorin descent)''', which appears to have been '''about seven of our feet'''.’''
:Which is from the '''same essay used for this passage (that comes from a note) on this current page:''' - "Their features and traits were such, that young members of the House were almost indistinguishable from the Eldar, a fact that was remembered in elven songs ever after. The swift fading of this condition was a grief and a mystery to the Eldar"
:You see how more similar Eldar are from men that previously were taller and broader? the note comes as Tolkien is trying to explain the physical differences between the houses and how the Hadoreans were similar to the Eldar ''"almost indistinguishable"''.
:The distinctions among the houses also changed, as per the earlier passages the Hadoreans are taller and stronger, but as per the later essay Of Dwarves and Men those of the house of Beör are broader and goes on to cite Beren in a note.
:Also, In the chapter "Beards" (1973) in TNoME, Tolkien was asked if Aragorn is beardless. Which he answers yes because the elven gene is extremely dominant going so far as saying this about royal and noble númenóreans (with elvish blood) when compared to regular númenóreans: - ''"The effects were long-lasting: e.g. in a tendency to '''a stature a little above the average''', to a greater (though steadily decreasing) longevity, and probably most lastingly in beardlessness..."''
:Which again matches with his letters such as this one (Letter 131) from 1951/52: - ''"The Númenóreans ... are in constant communication with their ancient friends and allies, either in the bliss of Eressea, or in the kingdom of Gilgalad on the shores of Middle-earth. They became '''thus in appearance''', and even in powers of mind, '''hardly distinguishable from the Elves'''"''
:Lastly, how can Hadoreans be taller if the '''two''' tallest of the children of Eru living in Beleriand were of the Eldar? Tolkien on Turgon: - '''''"tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol"'''''
:Unfinished Tales, Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin
:Thanks for reading. [[User:Kaue Tadaieski|Kaue Tadaieski]] ([[User talk:Kaue Tadaieski|talk]]) 23:15, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::Thanks a lot for your message and researches. I hope my (very very long, maybe too long ?) answer will be relevant. If not, I apologize : maybe it will be because I’m not an english speaker at home.

::First, I answer your last point :
::You write : Lastly, how can Hadoreans be taller if the two tallest of the children of Eru living in Beleriand were of the Eldar ? Tolkien on Turgon: - "tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol"
::Unfinished Tales, Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin
::=> It seems to me that when Tolkien talks about race’s heights, it’s an average. Nothing prevents Thingol and Turgon, as exceptional beings, from being the tallest of all the Children of Eru, even if the average size of the elves is smaller than de Hadorians’ one.

::Now, I answer other points :
::a) You write : You can see passages like this: - "... For the Noldor indeed were tall as are in the latter days men of great might and majesty..." from THoME, vol 11, circa 1951.
::=> Then the text goes : " '''But the people of Hador were of yet greater strength and stature''', mighty among the Children of Eru, ready in mind, bold and steadfast."
::Your quote compares Beorians with Noldor / Elves, but my subject is a comparison between Hadorians and Elves. And this 50’s text says that "people of Hador were of yet greater strength and stature" as the 30’s text does.

::b) You write : Even the ones you mentioned are from different versions until the latest one you see Chris use in The Silmarillion, different from the one you are mentioning. The last part "...yet less fair and wise than the Elves, though greater in stature..." does not exist in later version that was used in The Silmarillion.
::=> Quenta Silmarillion published by C. Tolkien is not a reference for me if original texts (from HOME / NOME) exist.

::c) You write : He maintained that in Of Dwarves and Men, TPoME (1969), where he says:
::'They were called “halflings”; but this refers to the normal height of men of Númenórean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Ñoldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.’
::=> That seems to say that Numenoreans are as tall as Noldor, but says nothing about people of Hador at 1st Age.

::d) You write : Which is from the same essay used for this passage (that comes from a note) on this current page: - "Their features and traits were such, that young members of the House were almost indistinguishable from the Eldar, a fact that was remembered in elven songs ever after. The swift fading of this condition was a grief and a mystery to the Eldar"
::You see how more similar Eldar are from men that previously were taller and broader ? the note comes as Tolkien is trying to explain the physical differences between the houses and how the Hadoreans were similar to the Eldar "almost indistinguishable".
::=> It seems to me that this is not a strong proof : this remark does not seem to be applied too strictly because the Elves have pointed ears, unlike the Edain. So if this remark is true while it does not take into account this difference of ear, we can also consider that a difference in size, notable, but not too pronounced, cannot constitute an inconsistency. This comparison applies perhaps in a rather vague context and perhaps also, above all, a statement based on more immaterial elements : it is placed after a remark on the vivacity of body and mind, audacity and noble generosity, and not after characteristics describing the physical body.
::In HOME 11 (The Later Quenta Silmarillion, p224 §33 ; 1958), Bëorians are said to be "'''most like the Noldor''' and most loved by them; for they were eager of mind, cunning-handed, swift in understanding, long in memory " ; we have here, (again ?), a comparison between Edain and Noldor based on psychological traits.

::e) You write : The distinctions among the houses also changed, as per the earlier passages the Hadoreans are taller and stronger, but as per the later essay Of Dwarves and Men those of the house of Beör are broader and goes on to cite Beren in a note.
::=> " broader " is not " taller " and "'''Men as tall as the Folk of Hador were rare among [the folk of Bëor]''', and most were broader and more heavy in build." are words from "Of Dwarves and Men", so it seems to me that Hadorians are "taller" and Beorians are "broader".

::f) You write : Also, In the chapter "Beards"(1973) in TNoME, Tolkien was asked if Aragorn is beardless. Which he says yes because the elven gene is extremely dominant going so far as to say this about Royal and noble númenóreans (with elvish blood) when compared to regular númenóreans: - "The effects were long-lasting: e.g. in a tendency to a stature a little above the average, to a greater (though steadily decreasing) longevity, and probably most lastingly in beardlessness..."
::=> ok, this one seems to be quite a strong proof : how can be the royal house with elvish blood, taller than average Númenóreans, if Elves are smaller than them ?!
::Well, I see 2 answers :
::- on the form and words, this § could talk about the entire descent of Elros and therefore take into account the Dunedain of the 3rd Age who are still smaller (Aragorn measures 6 ft 6, which is the minimum of the Eldar)
::- on the substance, it is possible that the effect of elven blood is not so much to simply add cm mathematically, but to allow a better body potential and therefore, that people with elven blood find themselves being taller than they would have been, and thus “a little above the average” of their people.

::As you can see, I’m not convince by your points except the last one which could be, however, understood in another way. I admit this other way is somewhat debatable (but I find it quite " Tolkienian " however), but it allows to unified all texts about this subject.

::See these texts and words (I know you know them, but with this selection, you will know about which parts I base my reflexion) :
::Text A : HOME 5 (Quenta Silmarillion p 276 §130 ; 1930-37)
::- Greatest was the house of Hador [...]. They were of greater strength and stature in body than the Elves; [...] Like to them were the woodland folk of Haleth, but they were not so tall; their backs were broader and their legs shorter and less swift. […] But the people of Beor were dark or brown of hair; […] Their height was no greater than that of the Elves of that day ;

::Text B : HOME 5 (Fall of Numenor 2nd version p23 §3 ; 1928) & HOME 9 (Fall of Numenor 3e version p334 §3 ; 1940-41)
::- In the wearing of time the people of Numenor grew great and glorious, in all things more like to the Firstborn than any other of the kindreds of Men; yet they were less fair and less wise than the Elves, though greater in stature. For the Numenoreans were exceedingly tall, taller than the tallest of the sons of men in Middle-earth.

::Text C : HOME 11 (The Grey Annals p50 §135 ; 1951-58)
::- The men of Beor […] were no greater in stature than the Eldar of that day. For the Noldor indeed were tall as are in the latter days men of great might and majesty. But the people of Hador were of yet greater strength and stature, mighty among the Children of Eru […]. Like unto them were the woodmen of Haleth, yet somewhat broader and less high.

::Text D : HOME 11 (The Later Quenta Silmarillion, p224 §33 ; 1958)
::- Greatest was the House of Hador [...], peer of Elven-lords. [...] they were tall and strong, [...] But the people of the House of Beor were [...] Lithe and lean in body they were long-enduring in hardship. Of all Men they were most like the Noldor and most loved by them; for they were eager of mind, cunning-handed, swift in understanding, long in memory [...]. Like to them were the woodland folk of Haleth; but they were shorter and broader, sterner and less swift. 

::Text E : NOME 3.11 Lives of Numenoreans ; 1965
::[Note 1] The Númenóreans were […] of the “House of Hador” and the “House of Bëor”. [...] The people of Bëor were on the whole [...] less tall and of less stalwart build; [...] The people of Hador were strong, tall [...]
::[…] the main mass of settlers came from the people of Bëor [...] was [...] in the North-west [...]. In most parts of the country Adûnayân was the native language of the people [...]

::Text F : UT 4.1 Note 7 ; unknown years because of this
::- There is no trace, either in the materials relating to the story of Aldarion and Erendis or elsewhere, of the presence of Drúedain in Númenor apart from the foregoing, save for a detached note which says that "the Edain who at the end of the War of the Jewels sailed over sea to Númenor contained few remnants of the Folk of Haleth, and the very few Drúedain that accompanied them died out long before the Downfall."

::Text G : HOME 12 (Late Writings, Of Dwarves and Men, p308 et 310 ; 1969)
::- […] among the Folk of Beor [...] Men as tall as the Folk of Hador were rare [...], and most were broader and more heavy in build. [46]
::46 Beren the Renowned had hair of a golden brown and grey eyes ; he was taller than most of his kin, but he was broad-shouldered and very strong in his limbs.
::In association with the Eldar, especially with the followers of King Finrod, they became as enhanced in arts and manners as the Folk of Hador, but if these surpassed them in swiftness of mind and body, in daring and noble generosity, [47] [...]
::47 The Eldar said, and recalled in the songs they still sang in later days, that they could not easily be distinguished from the Eldar - not while their youth lasted, the swift fading of which was to the Eldar a grief and a mystery.
::But these differences of body and mind became less marked as their short generations passed, for the two peoples became much mingled by intermarriage and by the disasters of the War. [48]
::48 [With this account of the Folk of Beor and the Folk of Hador may be compared the description that my father wrote many years before in the Quenta Silmarillion, V.276, $130.]
::[...]
::Hobbits […] were called 'halflings' ; but this refers to the normal height of men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.

::Text H : NOME (2.6 Descriptions of Characters, p194 " Heights " ; 1970)
::- [The Eldar] were in general the stronger and taller members of the Elvish folk at that time [= when they lived in Valinor]. In Eldarin tradition it was said that even their women were seldom less than 6 ft. In height; their full-grown elfmen no less than 6 ft. 6, while some of the great kings and leaders were taller.
::The Númenóreans before the Downfall were a people of great stature and strength, the Kings of Men; their full-grown men were commonly 7 ft. tall, especially in the royal and noble houses. In the North where men of other kinds were fewer and their race remained purer this stature remained more frequent.

::Text I : NOME (2.5 "Beards" p187 ; 1972-73)
::- Any element of an Elvish strain in human ancestry was very dominant and lasting (receding only slowly – as might be seen in Númenóreans of royal descent, in the matter of longevity also).
::[...]
::But the royal house was half-elven, having two strains of Elvish race in their ancestry [...]. The effects were long-lasting: e.g. in a tendency to a stature a little above the average [...].

::It seems possible to gather all these elements into a global and coherent vision :
::1) There are size differences among the Elves :
::- Eldar are taller on average than other Elves (H)
::- Elfemales Eldar never measure less than 6 ft 6 and females rarely less than 6 ft (H)
::- the Noldor could be the tallest of the Eldar in Middle-earth (C) ; they measure 7 ft average (G)

::2) Originally, there are differences in size among the Edain (G, E and others) :
::- the 1st House ("Bëorians") is not taller than the Eldar (C, A) because the Noldor are tall (C). The 1st House should therefore be at least the size of the other Eldar, if not a little taller, otherwise there would be no need to call on the Noldor specifically.
::- the 2nd House ("Halethians") is smaller than the 1st one, according to the most recent text (H) which talk about the subject. Previously, it was always stated that they were smaller, but we could understand that this comparison was with the 1st House, or with the 3rd House (C, A) ; anyway, it has always been said that they were smaller.
::- the 3rd House ( "Hadorians") is always described as tall (G, E, D, C, A), and often as taller than the 1st House (G, E, C, A). They are therefore, at a minimum, taller than the Eldar; an old text explicitly says that they are taller than the " Elves " (A). Afterwards, depending on how we understand this "taller than the Elves", we can consider the average of all the Elves (thus a value lower than the average size among the Eldar), or consider the race as a whole and that, therefore, the 3rd House would be on average, taller than the Noldor. Note that the text talks about "Elves" when we could use the term "Eldar". An element described below will allow us to favor one of these hypotheses.

::3) The differences between the 1st and 3rd Houses diminish over time because these two peoples mix (G).

::4) The population of Numenor is mainly made up of the 3rd House, then of the 1st House, and in a very small proportion, of the 2nd House (F, E).
::- Numenoreans average size is 7 ft, like the Noldor (H, G). An old text indicates that they are taller than the " Elves " (B). There again, considering the disparity in size among the Elves, we can understand that the Numenoreans are taller than the average elvish size (which is smaller than the average size of the Eldar only), while being as the same size as the Noldor who would be the tallest Elves (in Middle-earth).
::If we consider that the 1st House has an intermediate size between the Noldor and the other Eldar (therefore smaller than the Noldor ; see above, point 2 for this deduction), it would be a bit more coherent that the rest of the population (the 3rd House especially) is taller than the Noldor so that the mix brings the Numenorans to a size similar to that of the Noldor. (This is the element expected above to estimate the size of the 3rd House.)

::So all these elements and texts let me think that Hadorians are taller than Eldar, even of Noldorin origin.
::Are you still totally disagree ? [[User:Erendis|Erendis]] ([[User talk:Erendis|talk]]) 09:23, 28 October 2025 (UTC)
:::You write: " It seems to me that when Tolkien talks about race’s heights, it’s an average. Nothing prevents Thingol and Turgon, as exceptional beings, from being the tallest of all the Children of Eru, even if the average size of the elves is smaller than de Hadorians’ one."

:::R. Yes, average logic prevents that, because It's not only Thingol, but also Turgon, whose royal blood is later shown to make the Númenóreans taller. Tolkien could have dome some caviats on those heights, like he later did between Noldor and Teleri. It was also my last point because It's a cumulative point, last evidence.

:::You write: "Your quote compares Beorians with Noldor / Elves, but my subject is a comparison between Hadorians and Elves. And this 50’s text says that "people of Hador were of yet greater strength and stature" as the 30’s text does."

:::R. The quote compares Beor with the Eldar, the Noldor is added to specifically point out the similar height between the Noldor and Númenóreans, which are taller than any house of Men, you dispute that? You're again wrong here, the Hadoreans are compared to the house of Beör too, this is a evolution based revision from AB 2, pre LotR. That is how Tolkien goes by his writing.

:::You write: "Quenta Silmarillion published by C. Tolkien is not a reference for me if original texts (from HOME / NOME) exist."

:::R. Then please sir, go to HoMe and again see that the final evolution of the tale (as described by Chris) is from circa 1958 "''Akallabêth'': The Downfall of Númenor". The reference is there maintained but your quote from circa 1940, where LotR was in Its initial phase and without revision, is not. This is a pre-LotR quote for all purposes.

:::You write: "That seems to say that Numenoreans are as tall as Noldor, but says nothing about people of Hador at 1st Age."

:::R. Because Númenóreans are the tallest of Men whom tales tell? Soon we will be arguing that Tuor and even Huor are taller than Elendil?

:::You write: "It seems to me that this is not a strong proof : this remark does not seem to be applied too strictly because the Elves have pointed ears, unlike the Edain. So if this remark is true while it does not take into account this difference of ear, we can also consider that a difference in size, notable, but not too pronounced, cannot constitute an inconsistency. This comparison applies perhaps in a rather vague context and perhaps also, above all, a statement based on more immaterial elements : it is placed after a remark on the vivacity of body and mind, audacity and noble generosity, and not after characteristics describing the physical body."

:::R. The elves having pointed ears to the point of Immediate discernment is false if having any at all. Tuor and Túrin (''Adanedhel)'' are exact examples of the note as they can harldly be told apart from the elves the strongest and tallest of the Edain. Hador, "'''''peer of elven lords"''''' followed by phsyical description of his house in LQS 2, circa 1958. See Túrin and his multiple descriptions, The Children of Húrin (Narn) circa 1955 as :
:::''- There he heard a strange tale that went among them. '''A tall and lordly Man, or an Elf-warrior''', some said, had appeared in the woods, and had slain one of the Gaurwaith, and rescued the daughter of Larnach whom they were pursuing.''
:::- ... ''and he was in truth the son of Morwen Eledhwen to look upon: tall, dark-haired and pale-skinned, with grey eyes, and his face more beautiful than any other among mortal men, in the Elder Days. His speech and bearing were those of the ancient kingdom of Doriath, and e'''ven among the Elves he might be taken at first meeting for one from the great houses of the Noldor'''.''
:::Or Tuor, UT, 1950:
:::- ''"'''Then Voronwe led Tuor towards the light''', and as they drew near many Noldor, mail-clad and armed, stepped forward out of the darkness and surrounded them with drawn swords. '''And Elemmakil''', captain of the Guard, who bore the bright lamp, '''looked long and closely at them'''.''
:::''<nowiki/>'This is strange in you, Voronwe/ he said. 'We were long friends. Why then would you set me thus cruelly between the law and my friendship? If you had led hither unbidden one of the other houses of the Noldor, that were enough. But you have brought to knowledge of the Way '''a mortal Man - for by his eyes I perceive his kin'''."''
:::"perhaps" no, your opinion is vague, the text is talking about physical characteristics, the note is for that - ''while their '''youth lasted''', the swift fading of which was to the Eldar a grief and a mystery.'' This was just another evidence among the many I brought, but the main point was to show you the evolution of the tale which you said "nothing contradicted" after citing a pre-LotR, QS quote, later directly revised in LQS 2 (circa 1958) by Tolkien, where the quote ''"They were of greater strength and stature in body than the Elves"'' is literally dropped. From ''"taller and stronger"'' to ''"almost indistinguishable"'' is ''a'' clear difference here, It's no different than Tolkien suddenly describing the house of Bëor as "almost indistinguisable" to house Hador except for the hair, after saying they are stronger (bigger) and taller, you would find It strange at minimum.
:::The quote ''"... '''for''' they were eager of mind, cunning-handed, swift in understanding, long in memory".'' The word "for" is a clear indication of psychological, quite different from being alike '''ONLY''' while looking young...

:::You write: " broader " is not " taller " and "Men as tall as the Folk of Hador were rare among [the folk of Bëor], and most were broader and more heavy in build." are words from "Of Dwarves and Men", so it seems to me that Hadorians are "taller" and Beorians are "broader".

:::R. Another example of me showing you the evolution of the mythology, nothing else, that was the purpose of this comment as the people of Bëor went from lean to broad, different concepts even from LotR to be honest, not consistant in this case. Your quotes to justify the tallest of the children of Eru in Beleriand are from revised quotes pre-LotR time.

:::You write: "on the form and words, this § could talk about the entire descent of Elros and therefore take into account the Dunedain of the 3rd Age who are still smaller (Aragorn measures 6 ft 6, which is the minimum of the Eldar)"
:::"on the substance, it is possible that the effect of elven blood is not so much to simply add cm mathematically, but to allow a better body potential and therefore, that people with elven blood find themselves being taller than they would have been, and thus “a little above the average” of their people."

:::R. Aragorn was still taller than Boromir (preserving the difference) for example, though not sure It means anything really. The point of the note is regarding beards which is not an specific "doom" from Eru, of being far from their now non-existent home, only height and lifespan are. In other words the elven gene regarding height and lifespan will be worthless once the Númenóreans are doomed in these two characterists, however being beardless is a non factor regarding the blessings of Eru. Also, the elven genes in regards to height diminishes too over time, for elves AND men. But considering your view, she is no different than in regards to men with far off Númenórean descent being taller than the norm, but in each passing generation getting smaller, the gene is there but is diminishing because of the doom and mixed blood from the next generations, but the gene of being about 7 feet tall in origin is still there, though doomed. Eventually even the elven gene in regards to beards (the more lasting one) will be gone.
:::No, It's directly mentioned that the elven gene makes you beardless (because they are) and live longer (because they live) but the topic of height is coincidentally and specifically NOT because the Royal Eldar were taller ? Ummm

:::SECOND PART

:::As I've already mentioned, your quotes from pre-LotR narratives are directly revised, the concepts there are not the same from the later quotes that you mention, they can not be put together in the name of consistency alone.
:::1) Seems reasoanable. But only first age and perhaps beggining of the second. Diminishment is still active in ME, specially by the TA, the age of Men. Noldor and Eldar are somewhat similar in height you can almost asumme they are of the same size category in regards to Tolkien's view, almost 7 feet tall.

:::2) It says ''"no greater than the stature of the Eldar"'' and your conclusion is that they are a little taller? The house of Beör is not particulary tall (if even tall) and definitely not at least 6 ft. 6 in height. Makes no sense.
:::Let me be clear or rather Tolkien be clear, the Eldar are all somewhat similar in height, even the Sindar could ''"hardly be told apart"'' (circa 1960, HoMe, vol 11, Quendi and Eldar) from the exiles. The Noldor being called specifically in that passage can't possibly mean the house of Bëor is almost 7 feet tall... That is why in '''Dwarves and Men''' essay Tolkien cites all Eldar not just the Noldor, aka the name "halfing" would be of compare to most Sindar as well, or at least from those of earlier ages.
:::A) Yes the text from 1937, QS, pre-LotR, mentioned "elves" but probably meant the elves of Beleriand aka Eldar mostly. This text was later directly revised in LQS 2 circa 1958, towards no comparison to any elf at all. Why? Because in the evolution of the mythos the elves got taller, specially those in the first age. The only comparison we have later on (1969) is of the Hadoreans closely resembling the Eldar while they were not old, same text the Eldar are in general close to 7 feet tall.

:::3) True. And they all grew to the same average later.

:::4) Old text, revised and changed, no argument can be made here from that. The rest is already corrupted.
:::You assume the Hadoreans (by far the largest house 3:1, actually far more, in comparison with house 1) grew in height while in bliss proportionally with those of Bëor (resided in the north-west, '''text H''') and not BOTH getting into a similar (though taller than in origin) height. Those are simply elements described from their former Edain houses (when they were not mixed even) not that the differences in height remained as they all grew to almost 7 feet tall in average (the royals being taller), and still that would be an argument for Númenóreans not Hadoreans.
:::Númenóreans are taller than pure-blood Hadoreans, including those with Bëor descent. Where do you think the 7 feet height information comes from? from the survivors and elf-friends in ME out of Númenor as in '''text H''' Tolkien cites Arnorians from the House of Elendil, descent from house of Bëor, as being 7 feet frequently, creators of the word "halfling". So Númenóreans were equally blessed by Eru and their sons were taller than ANY of the sons born in ME (including those of house Hador that fled Beleriand or stayed in Eriador and never reached It), they are the Kings of Men. The blessing part here is important, everyone was blessed and got taller than they ever were as any people, the elements here of the Edain houses gave way to Númenórean's elements, though most were Hadoreans in ancestrality anyway and those even invaded Valinor. Elendil, the tall (nearly 8 feet tall) is an example of that for he was tecnically from the house of Bëor. Either you acknowledge that fact or says he is that tall exclusively because of Eldar genes, which would make my case even better.
:::So basically the smaller and less numerous (by far in comparison to house 3) kind in Númenor is '''almost or about 7 feet tall''', the royals (which are from the house of Hador actually) and nobles of Númenor who are generally taller are 7 feet tall for sure on average (see Isildur description), but the majority (Hadorean descent) are well over 7 feet and yet the average is '''still almost or about 7 feet'''?? You are reading too much into It, too many assumptions to fit your narrative. If you are in Númenor you will grow in height an body and become a Númenórean, even if you are one of the very few with Halethian ancestry, you will get to 7 feet tall.
:::Your point is basically saying that the first house was over 6 ft 6 (but not quite 7') in height even before growing in Númenor and that their members could '''RARELY''' reach the height of anyone from the folk of Hador, which would make the Hadoreans the tallest of all Children of Eru by far (nearly 8 feet tall? after Númenor), yet still shorter than Thingol and Turgon or maybe even Argon (though maybe another concept) ...

:::I disagree more now than before to be honest. The discussion turned into Hadoreans being substantially over 7 feet tall and their later Númenórean's direct descendants maybe even taller? I mean we are too far off the mark here.
:::The heights in ME regarding LotR , appendices, and CONSISTENT essays with It:
:::Gandalf (5'6") lower than the average of men in TA < folk kin to the house of Haleth, short, broad and "swarthier" (Bree, Dunlendings, white mountains folk) <= house of Haleth < house of Bëor <<<< house of Hador (prime) <= Eldar in their prime (Sindar, Vanyar, Nandor, Falmari) <= Númenóreans = Noldor in their prime.

:::Royal Noldorin are the tallest of all in general. '''It is no coincidence''' that the tallest of the Children of Eru: Thingol, Turgon or maybe even Argon (Royals of 7 feet tall people) gave the genes (before diminishing) to the tallest members of the Númenóreans, those who are said to reach 7 feet tall more often than the others '''''"especially in the royal and noble houses"''''' (H). None whatsoever.

:::I appreciate your answer and your points I read them all carefully and your english is fine indeed. I would still suggest that the original edit in the page of the House of Hador, in regards to them being taller than the elves of Belerind, be edited. As none of their members are in fact the tallest, not in comparison to the first or even the second of the Eldar. You can at least see how debatable and inconsistent that statement can be, specially with post-LotR revisions, used largely in The Silmarillion.
:::Have a good day sir. If the next reply is as big as the prior I'm not sure I'll be able to answer, I've already spent hours of my time on this :) [[User:Kaue Tadaieski|Kaue Tadaieski]] ([[User talk:Kaue Tadaieski|talk]]) 19:18, 28 October 2025 (UTC)
::::I hope I understood your answers well :) And I hope it would be shorter to answer ! :)

::::0) I do not adhere to your logic about the size of Turgon, which implies the size of the Numenoreans because it will only be present in the royal lineage, not in the entire population. It is the entire population that has an average of 7 feet, similar to the Noldor.

::::a) You are right about the interpretation of text C, but I do not see how it contradicts the fact that the Hadorians would be taller than the Eldar, even the Noldor, because it says:
::::1) the Beorians are not taller than the Eldar because the Noldor are as tall as the Numenoraeans will be
::::2) the Hadorians are taller than the Beorians

::::According to these elements, the Hadorians could be taller or smaller than the Noldor. The question is not determinable with these elements alone.

::::b) The Akallabêth (§6) describes the height of the Numenoreans as : “they were tall, taller than the tallest of the sounds of Middle-earth”
::::Personally, I understand that this remark applies to the 2nd Age, during the era of existence of Numenor and especially of contact and influence of the Numenoreans on ME, and not for the whole history (past and future) of Middle-earth. This feeling is reinforced by the expression 'sons of ME' : we talk about descendants.
::::Is there another quote that I missed and which would say that the Hadorians are not taller than the Numenoreans ?

::::c) You write : « Númenóreans are the tallest of Men whom tales tell ? Soon we will be arguing that Tuor and even Huor are taller than Elendil ? »

::::R : Regarding the fact that the Numenoreans are the tallest Humans the world has ever seen, cf my remark in b) above.
::::Afterwards, I don’t see the point of talking about the exceptional size of certain individuals when we talk about an average in a population. But yes, Tuor should be taller than Elendil since he is described in Narn I Chîn Hurin as the tallest of the Edain.

::::d) I do not dispute the fact that some Edain (Beorians? Hadorians? both? I find that note 47 and the sentence with which it is associated, do not allow to decide the subject with certainty; what do you think? ) can be almost indistinguishable from the Eldar (the 'almost' should not be forgotten). But I don’t see how this prevents the Hadorians from being, on average, a little taller than the Eldar and therefore how it is an argument.

::::And I don’t think that the « almost » refers to the fact that the Edain fade quickly because it’s the “young members of the House” who ”were almost indistinguishable from the Eldar”, and not the Edain in general, regardless of their age.

::::Moreover, in his letter 131 (1951), Tolkien writes: “The Númenóreans [...] became thus in appearance, and even in powers of mind, hardly distinguable from the Elves”. If we follow your logic, would this means that there is no difference in size between the Hadorians (or even the Beorians, since note 47 is not clear) and the Numenoreans? Or do you think that this quote is too old to be related to note 47 (which dates from 1969)?

::::e) I understand your point of view when you estimate that there is a clear change between "taller and stronger" to "almost indistinguishable", but I do not adhere to it so that Hadorians should necessarily be smaller than Eldar. The situation let a possibility that Tolkien imagined the Hadorians really much taller in the 40's, and then changed his mind to imagine them just a little taller (and strong? ) than the Eldar. Are you disagree with this possibility ?

::::And as much as it is clear that Tolkien changed his mind about the description of the Beorians (from 'lean' to 'broad'), its possible change of mind regarding the size of the Hadorians seems to me much less obvious and even less explicit.

::::The only recent element possibly comparing the size of the Eldar and the Hadorians indicates that the Hadorians would be almost indistinguishable from the Eldar (and probably from the Noldor since it is mainly with them that they are associated). Text G

::::The previously Tolkien’s idea was that the Hadorians were taller than the Elves, without knowing how much, I perceive a situation compatible with both if Hadorians are, on average, somewhat taller than the Eldar, but not to the point where we can no longer say that these 2 populations are 'almost indistinguishable'.

::::As for the Sindar (Teleri), there again, the comparison with the Noldor admits a certain variation by the ''''hardly''' be told apart'.
::::These adverbs (hardly, almost) allow (and admit) a slight but significant variation in appearances which can therefore be applied to size averages.

::::2) Perhaps I misexplained my point about the Beorians : I understand from text C that the Beorians are not taller than the Eldar of Beleriand (=Teleri + Noldor) because of the Noldor. It is therefore that the Noldor are taller than the Teleri and that the Beorians have a size smaller than the Noldor, but perhaps still taller than that of the Teleri (otherwise, no need to specify 'For the Noldor indeed were tall as [...]').

::::You write : « That is why in Dwarves and Men essay Tolkien cites all Eldar not just the Noldor, aka the name "halfing" would be of compare to most Sindar as well, or at least from those of earlier ages. »

::::R: I don’t agree: why does Tolkien bother to specify '(especially those of Noldorin descent)' if it doesn’t matter? For me, this implies, on the contrary, that there is a difference of size, once again, slight, but sufficiently noticeable for Tolkien to feel the need to specify in this context "(especially those of Noldorin descent)".

::::4) You write : « You assume the Hadoreans (by far the largest house 3:1, actually far more, in comparison with house 1) grew in height while in bliss proportionally with those of Bëor (resided in the north-west, text H) and not BOTH getting into a similar (though taller than in origin) height. »

::::R: No, I don’t assume at all that the Hadorians grew up on the island. I say that the sizes of the Beorians and Hadorians have stabilized on a common average due to mixing; the Hadorians would therefore have decreased in size. I do not consider that blessing makes them grow because no text talks about it.

::::That said, I quite like the interpretation saying that with Eru’s blessing, the Numenoreans have become the greatest Humans the world has ever seen. I find it very "Tolkienian" too. But if the blessing makes all the Numenoreans arrive at about 7 feet high, why is this not the case (at first glance) for the Druedain present on the island?

::::And as you may have read above, I do not think that the average size of the pure-blooded Hadorians in Beleriand is "by far" larger than that of the Noldor/Eldar; just enough for it to be noticeable. If I had to give a value, I would say 2-4 inches more, for example (so an average of 7 ft 2-4), just as we could imagine that the Sindar are on average smaller than the Noldor by 2-3 inches also (so an average of 6 ft 7-8)

::::You write : “So basically the smaller and less numerous (by far in comparison to house 3) kind in Númenor is almost or about 7 feet tall, [...] but the majority (Hadorean descent) are well over 7 feet and yet the average is still almost or about 7 feet??”

::::R: I do not agree with the idea that the Beorians and Halethians of Numenor measure approximately 7 ft when arriving in Numenor. The Beorians would, in my opinion, be a little smaller (between 6 ft 6 and 7 ft), and the Halethians still a little smaller. The Hadorians would be a little taller than 7 ft upon arriving in Beleriand, but the entire population would have already started to decrease in size due to mixing with other Edain before the arrival in Numenor: this is what the text G indicates. So it doesn’t seem to me to cause any problem to say that on average, Numenoreans measure 7 ft.

::::So overall, it now seems to me that the comparison of size between the Hadorians and the tallest of the Eldar in Middle-earth (Noldor? and I am indeed talking about the average size of a population, Thingol and Turgon are indeed the largest Children of Eru) is subject to interpretation. Depending on how we analyze Tolkien’s work during his life, we can estimate that the Hadorians are smaller, of the same size or taller than the Eldar.

::::For my part, I remain on the idea that they are slightly taller, notably because this 1st idea of Tolkien is not explicitly contradicted later. Moreover, even though I find pleasant, the idea that Numenoreans are the tallest of the Edain of all ages, the lack of explicit text indicating this and the fact that it does not seem to impact the Druedain present on the island makes me reject the idea.

::::Regarding the edition, perhaps it would be acceptable for everyone to mention this difference of interpretation in the article?

::::Thank you very much for the discussion in any case :) . [[User:Erendis|Erendis]] ([[User talk:Erendis|talk]]) 19:38, 1 November 2025 (UTC)

Talk:House of Hador

2025-11-01T19:38:04Z

Erendis: /* Tallest save the Elves ? */ Reply

==Family tree==
I just wanted to check, that the rest of the family tree will be added in due course? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:35, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

:Yes, I was planning on that, but I wasn't sure how to add characters in the family tree. Is there a page where that is explained? --[[User:DoctorWellington|DoctorWellington]] 15:01, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

:Well, I tried it, but I couldn't fix [[Rían]]'s box. --[[User:DoctorWellington|DoctorWellington]] 15:41, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

::Make sure you put the spaces in around the names and that the width of each row is the same. If you look at how I've edited it you'll see what I mean. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 16:16, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

:::Thanks for the tips! I only figured it out through try-and-check, by clicking "Show preview" a bunch of times, so it couldn't be perfect. --[[User:DoctorWellington|DoctorWellington]] 14:32, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

==The canonicity of "House of Marach"==

I have an issue regarding the use of the term "House of Marach". As I understand from what I've read from Tolkien's works, I have yet to see the term being used within his works. The only times where he refers to the noble family, he refers to them as the "Third House of the Edain" or "House of Hador". Now I understand that there were prominent members of the same family before Hador himself who gave his name to the house but I haven't seen Marach give his name to the House itself. He has given his name to the general people of this race, specifically the term "Folk of Marach". Now one important note to make is that the noble family is distinguished from the general people who followed the house. For instance, "Third House of the Edain" is used to designate those of the actual ruling family and terms such as "Folk of Marach" are used to designate the culture of people who followed the before-mentioned house. Therefore, in the infoboxes pertaining to the members of this House prior to Hador himself, it's not neccesarily proper to give their House designation as "House of Marach" (a non-canon term). A more suitable term would be "Third House of the Edain". Any thoughts regarding this matter?--[[User:Tolkienator|Tolkienator]] 21:40, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

:You are correct about the "House of Marach", I properly replaced the term in all the articles. However, Tolkien usually applied the same terms both to the ruling family and to its followers when talking about any "House of". For example, in this case the "folk of Marach" was later known as the "House of Hador" (WJ:234). About the article name, the wiki uses the term that is mainly known to the readers. --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 17:48, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

::Although I agree with the use of "folk of Marach" when addressing the culture and the people of that group of Edain, the term "House" in the legendarium always refers to a specific family and is not assigned to the general people who followed the family. Therefore, I believe that it is more appropriate to assign the term "Third House of the Edain" to all members of the "House of Hador" that predated Hador with a note addressing the fact that the term "House of Hador" only applied to those of the family from Hador's generation and beyond.--[[User:Tolkienator|Tolkienator]] ([[User talk:Tolkienator|talk]]) 19:28, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

==Tallest save the Elves ?==

Someone could tell me where we can find a source for this : "They were marked as being the tallest men inhabitants of Beleriand save the Elves" ?

For I've found the opposite in HOME 5 p276 (Quenta Silmarillion §130) : "They were of greater strength and stature in body than the Elves" and nothing to contradict.
Beside, the Numenoreans are also taller than the Elves in the §3 of the 2nd and 3rd version of the Fall of Numenor (HOME 5 and HOM 9) : "$3. And in the wearing of time the people of Numenor grew great and glorious, in all things more like the Firstborn than any other races of Men that have been; yet less fair and wise than the Elves, though greater in stature." [[User:Erendis|Erendis]] 09:21, 8 May 2022 (UTC)Erendis

:You are using old passages from the 30s or beggining of LotR writings that not necessary fit all the later narratives. Tolkien went back to write the Elders Days in the 50s and to polish LotR. His ideas on height had already changed.
:You can see passages like this: - ''"... For the Noldor indeed were tall as are in the latter days men of great might and majesty..."'' from THoME, vol 11, circa 1951.
:Even the ones you mentioned are from different "building" versions (1940 or 41) where the last one you see Chris use It in The Silmarillion, which is different from the ones you are mentioning. The last part ''"...yet less fair and wise than the Elves, though greater in stature..."'' does not exist in later version that was used in The Silmarillion.
:He maintained that in Of Dwarves and Men, TPoME (1969), where he says:
:''<nowiki/>'They were called “halflings”; but this refers to the normal height of men of Númenórean descent and of the '''Eldar (especially those of Ñoldorin descent)''', which appears to have been '''about seven of our feet'''.’''
:Which is from the '''same essay used for this passage (that comes from a note) on this current page:''' - "Their features and traits were such, that young members of the House were almost indistinguishable from the Eldar, a fact that was remembered in elven songs ever after. The swift fading of this condition was a grief and a mystery to the Eldar"
:You see how more similar Eldar are from men that previously were taller and broader? the note comes as Tolkien is trying to explain the physical differences between the houses and how the Hadoreans were similar to the Eldar ''"almost indistinguishable"''.
:The distinctions among the houses also changed, as per the earlier passages the Hadoreans are taller and stronger, but as per the later essay Of Dwarves and Men those of the house of Beör are broader and goes on to cite Beren in a note.
:Also, In the chapter "Beards" (1973) in TNoME, Tolkien was asked if Aragorn is beardless. Which he answers yes because the elven gene is extremely dominant going so far as saying this about royal and noble númenóreans (with elvish blood) when compared to regular númenóreans: - ''"The effects were long-lasting: e.g. in a tendency to '''a stature a little above the average''', to a greater (though steadily decreasing) longevity, and probably most lastingly in beardlessness..."''
:Which again matches with his letters such as this one (Letter 131) from 1951/52: - ''"The Númenóreans ... are in constant communication with their ancient friends and allies, either in the bliss of Eressea, or in the kingdom of Gilgalad on the shores of Middle-earth. They became '''thus in appearance''', and even in powers of mind, '''hardly distinguishable from the Elves'''"''
:Lastly, how can Hadoreans be taller if the '''two''' tallest of the children of Eru living in Beleriand were of the Eldar? Tolkien on Turgon: - '''''"tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol"'''''
:Unfinished Tales, Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin
:Thanks for reading. [[User:Kaue Tadaieski|Kaue Tadaieski]] ([[User talk:Kaue Tadaieski|talk]]) 23:15, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::Thanks a lot for your message and researches. I hope my (very very long, maybe too long ?) answer will be relevant. If not, I apologize : maybe it will be because I’m not an english speaker at home.

::First, I answer your last point :
::You write : Lastly, how can Hadoreans be taller if the two tallest of the children of Eru living in Beleriand were of the Eldar ? Tolkien on Turgon: - "tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol"
::Unfinished Tales, Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin
::=> It seems to me that when Tolkien talks about race’s heights, it’s an average. Nothing prevents Thingol and Turgon, as exceptional beings, from being the tallest of all the Children of Eru, even if the average size of the elves is smaller than de Hadorians’ one.

::Now, I answer other points :
::a) You write : You can see passages like this: - "... For the Noldor indeed were tall as are in the latter days men of great might and majesty..." from THoME, vol 11, circa 1951.
::=> Then the text goes : " '''But the people of Hador were of yet greater strength and stature''', mighty among the Children of Eru, ready in mind, bold and steadfast."
::Your quote compares Beorians with Noldor / Elves, but my subject is a comparison between Hadorians and Elves. And this 50’s text says that "people of Hador were of yet greater strength and stature" as the 30’s text does.

::b) You write : Even the ones you mentioned are from different versions until the latest one you see Chris use in The Silmarillion, different from the one you are mentioning. The last part "...yet less fair and wise than the Elves, though greater in stature..." does not exist in later version that was used in The Silmarillion.
::=> Quenta Silmarillion published by C. Tolkien is not a reference for me if original texts (from HOME / NOME) exist.

::c) You write : He maintained that in Of Dwarves and Men, TPoME (1969), where he says:
::'They were called “halflings”; but this refers to the normal height of men of Númenórean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Ñoldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.’
::=> That seems to say that Numenoreans are as tall as Noldor, but says nothing about people of Hador at 1st Age.

::d) You write : Which is from the same essay used for this passage (that comes from a note) on this current page: - "Their features and traits were such, that young members of the House were almost indistinguishable from the Eldar, a fact that was remembered in elven songs ever after. The swift fading of this condition was a grief and a mystery to the Eldar"
::You see how more similar Eldar are from men that previously were taller and broader ? the note comes as Tolkien is trying to explain the physical differences between the houses and how the Hadoreans were similar to the Eldar "almost indistinguishable".
::=> It seems to me that this is not a strong proof : this remark does not seem to be applied too strictly because the Elves have pointed ears, unlike the Edain. So if this remark is true while it does not take into account this difference of ear, we can also consider that a difference in size, notable, but not too pronounced, cannot constitute an inconsistency. This comparison applies perhaps in a rather vague context and perhaps also, above all, a statement based on more immaterial elements : it is placed after a remark on the vivacity of body and mind, audacity and noble generosity, and not after characteristics describing the physical body.
::In HOME 11 (The Later Quenta Silmarillion, p224 §33 ; 1958), Bëorians are said to be "'''most like the Noldor''' and most loved by them; for they were eager of mind, cunning-handed, swift in understanding, long in memory " ; we have here, (again ?), a comparison between Edain and Noldor based on psychological traits.

::e) You write : The distinctions among the houses also changed, as per the earlier passages the Hadoreans are taller and stronger, but as per the later essay Of Dwarves and Men those of the house of Beör are broader and goes on to cite Beren in a note.
::=> " broader " is not " taller " and "'''Men as tall as the Folk of Hador were rare among [the folk of Bëor]''', and most were broader and more heavy in build." are words from "Of Dwarves and Men", so it seems to me that Hadorians are "taller" and Beorians are "broader".

::f) You write : Also, In the chapter "Beards"(1973) in TNoME, Tolkien was asked if Aragorn is beardless. Which he says yes because the elven gene is extremely dominant going so far as to say this about Royal and noble númenóreans (with elvish blood) when compared to regular númenóreans: - "The effects were long-lasting: e.g. in a tendency to a stature a little above the average, to a greater (though steadily decreasing) longevity, and probably most lastingly in beardlessness..."
::=> ok, this one seems to be quite a strong proof : how can be the royal house with elvish blood, taller than average Númenóreans, if Elves are smaller than them ?!
::Well, I see 2 answers :
::- on the form and words, this § could talk about the entire descent of Elros and therefore take into account the Dunedain of the 3rd Age who are still smaller (Aragorn measures 6 ft 6, which is the minimum of the Eldar)
::- on the substance, it is possible that the effect of elven blood is not so much to simply add cm mathematically, but to allow a better body potential and therefore, that people with elven blood find themselves being taller than they would have been, and thus “a little above the average” of their people.

::As you can see, I’m not convince by your points except the last one which could be, however, understood in another way. I admit this other way is somewhat debatable (but I find it quite " Tolkienian " however), but it allows to unified all texts about this subject.

::See these texts and words (I know you know them, but with this selection, you will know about which parts I base my reflexion) :
::Text A : HOME 5 (Quenta Silmarillion p 276 §130 ; 1930-37)
::- Greatest was the house of Hador [...]. They were of greater strength and stature in body than the Elves; [...] Like to them were the woodland folk of Haleth, but they were not so tall; their backs were broader and their legs shorter and less swift. […] But the people of Beor were dark or brown of hair; […] Their height was no greater than that of the Elves of that day ;

::Text B : HOME 5 (Fall of Numenor 2nd version p23 §3 ; 1928) & HOME 9 (Fall of Numenor 3e version p334 §3 ; 1940-41)
::- In the wearing of time the people of Numenor grew great and glorious, in all things more like to the Firstborn than any other of the kindreds of Men; yet they were less fair and less wise than the Elves, though greater in stature. For the Numenoreans were exceedingly tall, taller than the tallest of the sons of men in Middle-earth.

::Text C : HOME 11 (The Grey Annals p50 §135 ; 1951-58)
::- The men of Beor […] were no greater in stature than the Eldar of that day. For the Noldor indeed were tall as are in the latter days men of great might and majesty. But the people of Hador were of yet greater strength and stature, mighty among the Children of Eru […]. Like unto them were the woodmen of Haleth, yet somewhat broader and less high.

::Text D : HOME 11 (The Later Quenta Silmarillion, p224 §33 ; 1958)
::- Greatest was the House of Hador [...], peer of Elven-lords. [...] they were tall and strong, [...] But the people of the House of Beor were [...] Lithe and lean in body they were long-enduring in hardship. Of all Men they were most like the Noldor and most loved by them; for they were eager of mind, cunning-handed, swift in understanding, long in memory [...]. Like to them were the woodland folk of Haleth; but they were shorter and broader, sterner and less swift. 

::Text E : NOME 3.11 Lives of Numenoreans ; 1965
::[Note 1] The Númenóreans were […] of the “House of Hador” and the “House of Bëor”. [...] The people of Bëor were on the whole [...] less tall and of less stalwart build; [...] The people of Hador were strong, tall [...]
::[…] the main mass of settlers came from the people of Bëor [...] was [...] in the North-west [...]. In most parts of the country Adûnayân was the native language of the people [...]

::Text F : UT 4.1 Note 7 ; unknown years because of this
::- There is no trace, either in the materials relating to the story of Aldarion and Erendis or elsewhere, of the presence of Drúedain in Númenor apart from the foregoing, save for a detached note which says that "the Edain who at the end of the War of the Jewels sailed over sea to Númenor contained few remnants of the Folk of Haleth, and the very few Drúedain that accompanied them died out long before the Downfall."

::Text G : HOME 12 (Late Writings, Of Dwarves and Men, p308 et 310 ; 1969)
::- […] among the Folk of Beor [...] Men as tall as the Folk of Hador were rare [...], and most were broader and more heavy in build. [46]
::46 Beren the Renowned had hair of a golden brown and grey eyes ; he was taller than most of his kin, but he was broad-shouldered and very strong in his limbs.
::In association with the Eldar, especially with the followers of King Finrod, they became as enhanced in arts and manners as the Folk of Hador, but if these surpassed them in swiftness of mind and body, in daring and noble generosity, [47] [...]
::47 The Eldar said, and recalled in the songs they still sang in later days, that they could not easily be distinguished from the Eldar - not while their youth lasted, the swift fading of which was to the Eldar a grief and a mystery.
::But these differences of body and mind became less marked as their short generations passed, for the two peoples became much mingled by intermarriage and by the disasters of the War. [48]
::48 [With this account of the Folk of Beor and the Folk of Hador may be compared the description that my father wrote many years before in the Quenta Silmarillion, V.276, $130.]
::[...]
::Hobbits […] were called 'halflings' ; but this refers to the normal height of men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.

::Text H : NOME (2.6 Descriptions of Characters, p194 " Heights " ; 1970)
::- [The Eldar] were in general the stronger and taller members of the Elvish folk at that time [= when they lived in Valinor]. In Eldarin tradition it was said that even their women were seldom less than 6 ft. In height; their full-grown elfmen no less than 6 ft. 6, while some of the great kings and leaders were taller.
::The Númenóreans before the Downfall were a people of great stature and strength, the Kings of Men; their full-grown men were commonly 7 ft. tall, especially in the royal and noble houses. In the North where men of other kinds were fewer and their race remained purer this stature remained more frequent.

::Text I : NOME (2.5 "Beards" p187 ; 1972-73)
::- Any element of an Elvish strain in human ancestry was very dominant and lasting (receding only slowly – as might be seen in Númenóreans of royal descent, in the matter of longevity also).
::[...]
::But the royal house was half-elven, having two strains of Elvish race in their ancestry [...]. The effects were long-lasting: e.g. in a tendency to a stature a little above the average [...].

::It seems possible to gather all these elements into a global and coherent vision :
::1) There are size differences among the Elves :
::- Eldar are taller on average than other Elves (H)
::- Elfemales Eldar never measure less than 6 ft 6 and females rarely less than 6 ft (H)
::- the Noldor could be the tallest of the Eldar in Middle-earth (C) ; they measure 7 ft average (G)

::2) Originally, there are differences in size among the Edain (G, E and others) :
::- the 1st House ("Bëorians") is not taller than the Eldar (C, A) because the Noldor are tall (C). The 1st House should therefore be at least the size of the other Eldar, if not a little taller, otherwise there would be no need to call on the Noldor specifically.
::- the 2nd House ("Halethians") is smaller than the 1st one, according to the most recent text (H) which talk about the subject. Previously, it was always stated that they were smaller, but we could understand that this comparison was with the 1st House, or with the 3rd House (C, A) ; anyway, it has always been said that they were smaller.
::- the 3rd House ( "Hadorians") is always described as tall (G, E, D, C, A), and often as taller than the 1st House (G, E, C, A). They are therefore, at a minimum, taller than the Eldar; an old text explicitly says that they are taller than the " Elves " (A). Afterwards, depending on how we understand this "taller than the Elves", we can consider the average of all the Elves (thus a value lower than the average size among the Eldar), or consider the race as a whole and that, therefore, the 3rd House would be on average, taller than the Noldor. Note that the text talks about "Elves" when we could use the term "Eldar". An element described below will allow us to favor one of these hypotheses.

::3) The differences between the 1st and 3rd Houses diminish over time because these two peoples mix (G).

::4) The population of Numenor is mainly made up of the 3rd House, then of the 1st House, and in a very small proportion, of the 2nd House (F, E).
::- Numenoreans average size is 7 ft, like the Noldor (H, G). An old text indicates that they are taller than the " Elves " (B). There again, considering the disparity in size among the Elves, we can understand that the Numenoreans are taller than the average elvish size (which is smaller than the average size of the Eldar only), while being as the same size as the Noldor who would be the tallest Elves (in Middle-earth).
::If we consider that the 1st House has an intermediate size between the Noldor and the other Eldar (therefore smaller than the Noldor ; see above, point 2 for this deduction), it would be a bit more coherent that the rest of the population (the 3rd House especially) is taller than the Noldor so that the mix brings the Numenorans to a size similar to that of the Noldor. (This is the element expected above to estimate the size of the 3rd House.)

::So all these elements and texts let me think that Hadorians are taller than Eldar, even of Noldorin origin.
::Are you still totally disagree ? [[User:Erendis|Erendis]] ([[User talk:Erendis|talk]]) 09:23, 28 October 2025 (UTC)
:::You write: " It seems to me that when Tolkien talks about race’s heights, it’s an average. Nothing prevents Thingol and Turgon, as exceptional beings, from being the tallest of all the Children of Eru, even if the average size of the elves is smaller than de Hadorians’ one."

:::R. Yes, average logic prevents that, because It's not only Thingol, but also Turgon, whose royal blood is later shown to make the Númenóreans taller. Tolkien could have dome some caviats on those heights, like he later did between Noldor and Teleri. It was also my last point because It's a cumulative point, last evidence.

:::You write: "Your quote compares Beorians with Noldor / Elves, but my subject is a comparison between Hadorians and Elves. And this 50’s text says that "people of Hador were of yet greater strength and stature" as the 30’s text does."

:::R. The quote compares Beor with the Eldar, the Noldor is added to specifically point out the similar height between the Noldor and Númenóreans, which are taller than any house of Men, you dispute that? You're again wrong here, the Hadoreans are compared to the house of Beör too, this is a evolution based revision from AB 2, pre LotR. That is how Tolkien goes by his writing.

:::You write: "Quenta Silmarillion published by C. Tolkien is not a reference for me if original texts (from HOME / NOME) exist."

:::R. Then please sir, go to HoMe and again see that the final evolution of the tale (as described by Chris) is from circa 1958 "''Akallabêth'': The Downfall of Númenor". The reference is there maintained but your quote from circa 1940, where LotR was in Its initial phase and without revision, is not. This is a pre-LotR quote for all purposes.

:::You write: "That seems to say that Numenoreans are as tall as Noldor, but says nothing about people of Hador at 1st Age."

:::R. Because Númenóreans are the tallest of Men whom tales tell? Soon we will be arguing that Tuor and even Huor are taller than Elendil?

:::You write: "It seems to me that this is not a strong proof : this remark does not seem to be applied too strictly because the Elves have pointed ears, unlike the Edain. So if this remark is true while it does not take into account this difference of ear, we can also consider that a difference in size, notable, but not too pronounced, cannot constitute an inconsistency. This comparison applies perhaps in a rather vague context and perhaps also, above all, a statement based on more immaterial elements : it is placed after a remark on the vivacity of body and mind, audacity and noble generosity, and not after characteristics describing the physical body."

:::R. The elves having pointed ears to the point of Immediate discernment is false if having any at all. Tuor and Túrin (''Adanedhel)'' are exact examples of the note as they can harldly be told apart from the elves the strongest and tallest of the Edain. Hador, "'''''peer of elven lords"''''' followed by phsyical description of his house in LQS 2, circa 1958. See Túrin and his multiple descriptions, The Children of Húrin (Narn) circa 1955 as :
:::''- There he heard a strange tale that went among them. '''A tall and lordly Man, or an Elf-warrior''', some said, had appeared in the woods, and had slain one of the Gaurwaith, and rescued the daughter of Larnach whom they were pursuing.''
:::- ... ''and he was in truth the son of Morwen Eledhwen to look upon: tall, dark-haired and pale-skinned, with grey eyes, and his face more beautiful than any other among mortal men, in the Elder Days. His speech and bearing were those of the ancient kingdom of Doriath, and e'''ven among the Elves he might be taken at first meeting for one from the great houses of the Noldor'''.''
:::Or Tuor, UT, 1950:
:::- ''"'''Then Voronwe led Tuor towards the light''', and as they drew near many Noldor, mail-clad and armed, stepped forward out of the darkness and surrounded them with drawn swords. '''And Elemmakil''', captain of the Guard, who bore the bright lamp, '''looked long and closely at them'''.''
:::''<nowiki/>'This is strange in you, Voronwe/ he said. 'We were long friends. Why then would you set me thus cruelly between the law and my friendship? If you had led hither unbidden one of the other houses of the Noldor, that were enough. But you have brought to knowledge of the Way '''a mortal Man - for by his eyes I perceive his kin'''."''
:::"perhaps" no, your opinion is vague, the text is talking about physical characteristics, the note is for that - ''while their '''youth lasted''', the swift fading of which was to the Eldar a grief and a mystery.'' This was just another evidence among the many I brought, but the main point was to show you the evolution of the tale which you said "nothing contradicted" after citing a pre-LotR, QS quote, later directly revised in LQS 2 (circa 1958) by Tolkien, where the quote ''"They were of greater strength and stature in body than the Elves"'' is literally dropped. From ''"taller and stronger"'' to ''"almost indistinguishable"'' is ''a'' clear difference here, It's no different than Tolkien suddenly describing the house of Bëor as "almost indistinguisable" to house Hador except for the hair, after saying they are stronger (bigger) and taller, you would find It strange at minimum.
:::The quote ''"... '''for''' they were eager of mind, cunning-handed, swift in understanding, long in memory".'' The word "for" is a clear indication of psychological, quite different from being alike '''ONLY''' while looking young...

:::You write: " broader " is not " taller " and "Men as tall as the Folk of Hador were rare among [the folk of Bëor], and most were broader and more heavy in build." are words from "Of Dwarves and Men", so it seems to me that Hadorians are "taller" and Beorians are "broader".

:::R. Another example of me showing you the evolution of the mythology, nothing else, that was the purpose of this comment as the people of Bëor went from lean to broad, different concepts even from LotR to be honest, not consistant in this case. Your quotes to justify the tallest of the children of Eru in Beleriand are from revised quotes pre-LotR time.

:::You write: "on the form and words, this § could talk about the entire descent of Elros and therefore take into account the Dunedain of the 3rd Age who are still smaller (Aragorn measures 6 ft 6, which is the minimum of the Eldar)"
:::"on the substance, it is possible that the effect of elven blood is not so much to simply add cm mathematically, but to allow a better body potential and therefore, that people with elven blood find themselves being taller than they would have been, and thus “a little above the average” of their people."

:::R. Aragorn was still taller than Boromir (preserving the difference) for example, though not sure It means anything really. The point of the note is regarding beards which is not an specific "doom" from Eru, of being far from their now non-existent home, only height and lifespan are. In other words the elven gene regarding height and lifespan will be worthless once the Númenóreans are doomed in these two characterists, however being beardless is a non factor regarding the blessings of Eru. Also, the elven genes in regards to height diminishes too over time, for elves AND men. But considering your view, she is no different than in regards to men with far off Númenórean descent being taller than the norm, but in each passing generation getting smaller, the gene is there but is diminishing because of the doom and mixed blood from the next generations, but the gene of being about 7 feet tall in origin is still there, though doomed. Eventually even the elven gene in regards to beards (the more lasting one) will be gone.
:::No, It's directly mentioned that the elven gene makes you beardless (because they are) and live longer (because they live) but the topic of height is coincidentally and specifically NOT because the Royal Eldar were taller ? Ummm

:::SECOND PART

:::As I've already mentioned, your quotes from pre-LotR narratives are directly revised, the concepts there are not the same from the later quotes that you mention, they can not be put together in the name of consistency alone.
:::1) Seems reasoanable. But only first age and perhaps beggining of the second. Diminishment is still active in ME, specially by the TA, the age of Men. Noldor and Eldar are somewhat similar in height you can almost asumme they are of the same size category in regards to Tolkien's view, almost 7 feet tall.

:::2) It says ''"no greater than the stature of the Eldar"'' and your conclusion is that they are a little taller? The house of Beör is not particulary tall (if even tall) and definitely not at least 6 ft. 6 in height. Makes no sense.
:::Let me be clear or rather Tolkien be clear, the Eldar are all somewhat similar in height, even the Sindar could ''"hardly be told apart"'' (circa 1960, HoMe, vol 11, Quendi and Eldar) from the exiles. The Noldor being called specifically in that passage can't possibly mean the house of Bëor is almost 7 feet tall... That is why in '''Dwarves and Men''' essay Tolkien cites all Eldar not just the Noldor, aka the name "halfing" would be of compare to most Sindar as well, or at least from those of earlier ages.
:::A) Yes the text from 1937, QS, pre-LotR, mentioned "elves" but probably meant the elves of Beleriand aka Eldar mostly. This text was later directly revised in LQS 2 circa 1958, towards no comparison to any elf at all. Why? Because in the evolution of the mythos the elves got taller, specially those in the first age. The only comparison we have later on (1969) is of the Hadoreans closely resembling the Eldar while they were not old, same text the Eldar are in general close to 7 feet tall.

:::3) True. And they all grew to the same average later.

:::4) Old text, revised and changed, no argument can be made here from that. The rest is already corrupted.
:::You assume the Hadoreans (by far the largest house 3:1, actually far more, in comparison with house 1) grew in height while in bliss proportionally with those of Bëor (resided in the north-west, '''text H''') and not BOTH getting into a similar (though taller than in origin) height. Those are simply elements described from their former Edain houses (when they were not mixed even) not that the differences in height remained as they all grew to almost 7 feet tall in average (the royals being taller), and still that would be an argument for Númenóreans not Hadoreans.
:::Númenóreans are taller than pure-blood Hadoreans, including those with Bëor descent. Where do you think the 7 feet height information comes from? from the survivors and elf-friends in ME out of Númenor as in '''text H''' Tolkien cites Arnorians from the House of Elendil, descent from house of Bëor, as being 7 feet frequently, creators of the word "halfling". So Númenóreans were equally blessed by Eru and their sons were taller than ANY of the sons born in ME (including those of house Hador that fled Beleriand or stayed in Eriador and never reached It), they are the Kings of Men. The blessing part here is important, everyone was blessed and got taller than they ever were as any people, the elements here of the Edain houses gave way to Númenórean's elements, though most were Hadoreans in ancestrality anyway and those even invaded Valinor. Elendil, the tall (nearly 8 feet tall) is an example of that for he was tecnically from the house of Bëor. Either you acknowledge that fact or says he is that tall exclusively because of Eldar genes, which would make my case even better.
:::So basically the smaller and less numerous (by far in comparison to house 3) kind in Númenor is '''almost or about 7 feet tall''', the royals (which are from the house of Hador actually) and nobles of Númenor who are generally taller are 7 feet tall for sure on average (see Isildur description), but the majority (Hadorean descent) are well over 7 feet and yet the average is '''still almost or about 7 feet'''?? You are reading too much into It, too many assumptions to fit your narrative. If you are in Númenor you will grow in height an body and become a Númenórean, even if you are one of the very few with Halethian ancestry, you will get to 7 feet tall.
:::Your point is basically saying that the first house was over 6 ft 6 (but not quite 7') in height even before growing in Númenor and that their members could '''RARELY''' reach the height of anyone from the folk of Hador, which would make the Hadoreans the tallest of all Children of Eru by far (nearly 8 feet tall? after Númenor), yet still shorter than Thingol and Turgon or maybe even Argon (though maybe another concept) ...

:::I disagree more now than before to be honest. The discussion turned into Hadoreans being substantially over 7 feet tall and their later Númenórean's direct descendants maybe even taller? I mean we are too far off the mark here.
:::The heights in ME regarding LotR , appendices, and CONSISTENT essays with It:
:::Gandalf (5'6") lower than the average of men in TA < folk kin to the house of Haleth, short, broad and "swarthier" (Bree, Dunlendings, white mountains folk) <= house of Haleth < house of Bëor <<<< house of Hador (prime) <= Eldar in their prime (Sindar, Vanyar, Nandor, Falmari) <= Númenóreans = Noldor in their prime.

:::Royal Noldorin are the tallest of all in general. '''It is no coincidence''' that the tallest of the Children of Eru: Thingol, Turgon or maybe even Argon (Royals of 7 feet tall people) gave the genes (before diminishing) to the tallest members of the Númenóreans, those who are said to reach 7 feet tall more often than the others '''''"especially in the royal and noble houses"''''' (H). None whatsoever.

:::I appreciate your answer and your points I read them all carefully and your english is fine indeed. I would still suggest that the original edit in the page of the House of Hador, in regards to them being taller than the elves of Belerind, be edited. As none of their members are in fact the tallest, not in comparison to the first or even the second of the Eldar. You can at least see how debatable and inconsistent that statement can be, specially with post-LotR revisions, used largely in The Silmarillion.
:::Have a good day sir. If the next reply is as big as the prior I'm not sure I'll be able to answer, I've already spent hours of my time on this :) [[User:Kaue Tadaieski|Kaue Tadaieski]] ([[User talk:Kaue Tadaieski|talk]]) 19:18, 28 October 2025 (UTC)
::::I hope I understood your answers well :) And I hope it would be shorter to answer ! :)
::::0) I do not adhere to your logic about the size of Turgon, which implies the size of the Numenoreans because it will only be present in the royal lineage, not in the entire population. It is the entire population that has an average of 7 feet, similar to the Noldor.
::::a) You are right about the interpretation of text C, but I do not see how it contradicts the fact that the Hadorians would be taller than the Eldar, even the Noldor, because it says:
::::1) the Beorians are not taller than the Eldar because the Noldor are as tall as the Numenoraeans will be
::::2) the Hadorians are taller than the Beorians
::::According to these elements, the Hadorians could be taller or smaller than the Noldor. The question is not determinable with these elements alone.
::::b) The Akallabêth (§6) describes the height of the Numenoreans as : “they were tall, taller than the tallest of the sounds of Middle-earth”
::::Personally, I understand that this remark applies to the 2nd Age, during the era of existence of Numenor and especially of contact and influence of the Numenoreans on ME, and not for the whole history (past and future) of Middle-earth. This feeling is reinforced by the expression 'sons of ME' : we talk about descendants.
::::Is there another quote that I missed and which would say that the Hadorians are not taller than the Numenoreans ?
::::c) You write : « Númenóreans are the tallest of Men whom tales tell ? Soon we will be arguing that Tuor and even Huor are taller than Elendil ? »
::::R : Regarding the fact that the Numenoreans are the tallest Humans the world has ever seen, cf my remark in b) above.
::::Afterwards, I don’t see the point of talking about the exceptional size of certain individuals when we talk about an average in a population. But yes, Tuor should be taller than Elendil since he is described in Narn I Chîn Hurin as the tallest of the Edain.
::::d) I do not dispute the fact that some Edain (Beorians? Hadorians? both? I find that note 47 and the sentence with which it is associated, do not allow to decide the subject with certainty; what do you think? ) can be almost indistinguishable from the Eldar (the 'almost' should not be forgotten). But I don’t see how this prevents the Hadorians from being, on average, a little taller than the Eldar and therefore how it is an argument.
::::And I don’t think that the « almost » refers to the fact that the Edain fade quickly because it’s the “young members of the House” who ”were almost indistinguishable from the Eldar”, and not the Edain in general, regardless of their age.
::::Moreover, in his letter 131 (1951), Tolkien writes: “The Númenóreans [...] became thus in appearance, and even in powers of mind, hardly distinguable from the Elves”. If we follow your logic, would this means that there is no difference in size between the Hadorians (or even the Beorians, since note 47 is not clear) and the Numenoreans? Or do you think that this quote is too old to be related to note 47 (which dates from 1969)?
::::e) I understand your point of view when you estimate that there is a clear change between "taller and stronger" to "almost indistinguishable", but I do not adhere to it so that Hadorians should necessarily be smaller than Eldar. The situation let a possibility that Tolkien imagined the Hadorians really much taller in the 40's, and then changed his mind to imagine them just a little taller (and strong? ) than the Eldar. Are you disagree with this possibility ?
::::And as much as it is clear that Tolkien changed his mind about the description of the Beorians (from 'lean' to 'broad'), its possible change of mind regarding the size of the Hadorians seems to me much less obvious and even less explicit.
::::The only recent element possibly comparing the size of the Eldar and the Hadorians indicates that the Hadorians would be almost indistinguishable from the Eldar (and probably from the Noldor since it is mainly with them that they are associated). Text G
::::The previously Tolkien’s idea was that the Hadorians were taller than the Elves, without knowing how much, I perceive a situation compatible with both if Hadorians are, on average, somewhat taller than the Eldar, but not to the point where we can no longer say that these 2 populations are 'almost indistinguishable'.
::::As for the Sindar (Teleri), there again, the comparison with the Noldor admits a certain variation by the ''''hardly''' be told apart'.
::::These adverbs (hardly, almost) allow (and admit) a slight but significant variation in appearances which can therefore be applied to size averages.
::::2) Perhaps I misexplained my point about the Beorians : I understand from text C that the Beorians are not taller than the Eldar of Beleriand (=Teleri + Noldor) because of the Noldor. It is therefore that the Noldor are taller than the Teleri and that the Beorians have a size smaller than the Noldor, but perhaps still taller than that of the Teleri (otherwise, no need to specify 'For the Noldor indeed were tall as [...]').
::::You write : « That is why in Dwarves and Men essay Tolkien cites all Eldar not just the Noldor, aka the name "halfing" would be of compare to most Sindar as well, or at least from those of earlier ages. »
::::R: I don’t agree: why does Tolkien bother to specify '(especially those of Noldorin descent)' if it doesn’t matter? For me, this implies, on the contrary, that there is a difference of size, once again, slight, but sufficiently noticeable for Tolkien to feel the need to specify in this context "(especially those of Noldorin descent)".
::::4) You write : « You assume the Hadoreans (by far the largest house 3:1, actually far more, in comparison with house 1) grew in height while in bliss proportionally with those of Bëor (resided in the north-west, text H) and not BOTH getting into a similar (though taller than in origin) height. »
::::R: No, I don’t assume at all that the Hadorians grew up on the island. I say that the sizes of the Beorians and Hadorians have stabilized on a common average due to mixing; the Hadorians would therefore have decreased in size. I do not consider that blessing makes them grow because no text talks about it.
::::That said, I quite like the interpretation saying that with Eru’s blessing, the Numenoreans have become the greatest Humans the world has ever seen. I find it very "Tolkienian" too. But if the blessing makes all the Numenoreans arrive at about 7 feet high, why is this not the case (at first glance) for the Druedain present on the island?
::::And as you may have read above, I do not think that the average size of the pure-blooded Hadorians in Beleriand is "by far" larger than that of the Noldor/Eldar; just enough for it to be noticeable. If I had to give a value, I would say 2-4 inches more, for example (so an average of 7 ft 2-4), just as we could imagine that the Sindar are on average smaller than the Noldor by 2-3 inches also (so an average of 6 ft 7-8)
::::You write : “So basically the smaller and less numerous (by far in comparison to house 3) kind in Númenor is almost or about 7 feet tall, [...] but the majority (Hadorean descent) are well over 7 feet and yet the average is still almost or about 7 feet??”
::::R: I do not agree with the idea that the Beorians and Halethians of Numenor measure approximately 7 ft when arriving in Numenor. The Beorians would, in my opinion, be a little smaller (between 6 ft 6 and 7 ft), and the Halethians still a little smaller. The Hadorians would be a little taller than 7 ft upon arriving in Beleriand, but the entire population would have already started to decrease in size due to mixing with other Edain before the arrival in Numenor: this is what the text G indicates. So it doesn’t seem to me to cause any problem to say that on average, Numenoreans measure 7 ft.
::::So overall, it now seems to me that the comparison of size between the Hadorians and the tallest of the Eldar in Middle-earth (Noldor? and I am indeed talking about the average size of a population, Thingol and Turgon are indeed the largest Children of Eru) is subject to interpretation. Depending on how we analyze Tolkien’s work during his life, we can estimate that the Hadorians are smaller, of the same size or taller than the Eldar.
::::For my part, I remain on the idea that they are slightly taller, notably because this 1st idea of Tolkien is not explicitly contradicted later. Moreover, even though I find pleasant, the idea that Numenoreans are the tallest of the Edain of all ages, the lack of explicit text indicating this and the fact that it does not seem to impact the Druedain present on the island makes me reject the idea.
::::So, regarding the edition, perhaps it would be acceptable for everyone to mention this difference of interpretation in the article?
::::Thank you very much for the discussion in any case :) . [[User:Erendis|Erendis]] ([[User talk:Erendis|talk]]) 19:38, 1 November 2025 (UTC)

Talk:House of Hador

2025-10-28T09:30:37Z

Erendis: /* Tallest save the Elves ? */

Talk:House of Hador

2025-10-28T09:23:41Z

Erendis: /* Tallest save the Elves ? */ Reply

Talk:House of Hador

2025-10-28T09:22:04Z

Erendis:

Talk:House of Hador

2025-10-28T09:19:02Z

Erendis: /* Tallest save the Elves ? */ Reply

Talk:House of Hador

2025-10-28T09:00:47Z

Erendis: /* Tallest save the Elves ? */ Reply

House of Hador

2025-10-09T20:19:48Z

Erendis: add asource at "the House of Hador was still the greatest in size of all the Houses and so made up the greater portion of the Númenóreans." It's probably not the best source, but I don't find a better one.

{{sources}}
{{disambig-more|Hador|[[Hador (disambiguation)]]}}
{{Noble House infobox
| name=House of Hador
| image = Quentandil - Hador device.png
| caption=
| othernames='''House:''' ''Bar Hador'' ([[Sindarin|S]]) Third House of the Edain '''People:''' Edain of the North, Folk of Marach, Hadorians, Men of Dor-lómin, Men of Hador's House, Men of Hithlum, Men of the North, People of Hador, Stawheads<ref>{{CH|4}}, p. 68</ref>
| founder=[[Marach]]
| leader=Briefly the [[Lord of Dor-lómin|Lords of Dor-lómin]]
| location=[[Estolad]], [[Hithlum]] (especially [[Dor-lómin]]), later [[Númenor]]
| affiliation=[[House of Fingolfin]]
| rivalry=
| destroyed=Last formal leader of this people, [[Húrin Thalion]], ruled until {{FA|472}}, but descendants of this people survived down into the [[Fourth Age]]
| language=[[Taliska]], [[Sindarin]]
| members=[[Hador]], [[Galdor]], [[Huor]], [[Eärendil]], [[Elrond]]
| race=[[Edain]]
| distinctions=
| height=Tall
| hair=Mostly golden
| skin=Fair
| clothing=
| weapons=
| heirlooms=[[Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin]], [[Dramborleg]]
| gallery=Hadorians
}}

The '''House of Hador''', also known as the '''Third House of the Edain''', was the last House of the [[Edain]] to cross the [[Ered Luin]] into [[Beleriand]] during the late [[First Age]].

The followers of [[Marach]] and his descendants would become the '''Edain of the North''', '''Folk of Marach''', '''Hadorians''', '''Men of Dor-lómin''', '''Men of Hador's House''', '''Men of Hithlum''', '''Men of the North''', and the '''People of Hador'''.
==Origin==
The [[Men]] of the folk of Marach descended from the tribes of Men who abandoned [[Hildórien]] for the [[West (disambiguation)|West]]. They were at war with the [[Men of Darkness|Men]] who fell under the [[Shadow]], and were pursued by them.<ref name="DM">{{PM|Atani}}</ref> They followed a road around northern [[Rhûn]] where they met some [[Dwarves]].<ref>{{WJ|Dwarves}}</ref> At the shores of the [[Sea of Rhûn]] a [[House of Bëor|small part was separated]]. The Greater Folk, the ancestors of the folk of Marach, came later in the north-east woods near the shores. They crafted boats and could sail the insland Sea, and seemed to have been related to the ancestors of the [[Northmen]].<ref>{{UT|Cirion}}</ref>

That folk was numerous and came in three hosts each around 2000 adult men. They crossed [[Eriador]] armed and equipped, with many [[horses]], some [[donkeys]] and flocks of [[sheep]] and [[goats]]. They reached the feet of the [[Ered Luin]] a year before all others but didn't attempt to find passes. Their mounted scouts attempted to find a way round them, and did so from the south.<ref name="DM" />

In {{FA|313}}, the first host entered [[Beleriand]] from the south and were followed by the rest of the folk of Marach in the same year.<ref name="DM" /> They were the largest of the Houses and also the most warlike and they frightened the native [[Green-elves]] who inhabited the forested slopes of the mountains and so were bidden to progress to Estolad as the [[House of Bëor]] had done. Of all the Houses of the Edain the Hadorians remained longest in Estolad (perhaps due to the immense size of the House) but became close allies with the Noldorin [[House of Fingolfin]] who reigned in [[Hithlum]]. Under the rule of [[Magor]], grandson of Marach the House removed to the southern slopes of the [[Ered Wethrin]].

==History==
It was during the reign of Hador in {{FA|416}} though that the folk of Marach were finally granted permanent lands in the form of the fief of [[Dor-lómin]] within Hithlum. In recognition of the first lord of their new realm the House became known as the House of Hador. As a gift from his new lords, Hador was given the [[Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin|Dragon Helm]] by Fingon, which became a great heirloom of the House, borne by all its lords save Húrin. They enjoyed much splendor under the [[House of Fingolfin]], and their warriors held [[Eithel Sirion]] and fought beside the Noldor in the [[Wars of Beleriand]].

Hador died during the [[Dagor Bragollach]] alongside his younger son [[Gundor]]. So Lordship of the House passed to Hador's older son [[Galdor (Lord of Dor-lómin)|Galdor]] leading the House of Hador in the troubled times that followed the Dagor Bragollach. During those times the House united with some of the folk of the [[House of Beor]] who had fled from [[Dorthonion]]. Galdor's wife was of the [[Haladin]] and their sons, [[Húrin]] and [[Huor]], were sent away to Brethil when they were lost and spent time with [[Turgon]] in [[Gondolin]]. Galdor himself was slain at [[Eithel Sirion]] in {{FA|462|n}}, thus Húrin became the third Lord of Dor-lómin.

During Húrin's tenure as lord, Hithlum was largely made safe, owing largely to the great reclamation of lost lands by the [[Union of Maedhros]] of which the men and elves of Hithlum were participants. This gathered steam until the plans were made for another assault on [[Morgoth]] in [[Angband]]- the battle that would become known as [[Nirnaeth Arnoediad]]. Húrin mustered all the men that Dor-lómin could provide to supplement Fingon's host in the west. The result was devastating for the House of Hador and their remnant covered the retreat of Turgon. They refused to leave and heroically drew up their lines behind [[Rivil]], killing hundreds of [[Orcs]] and [[Trolls]] before their entire host was killed to a man in a final last stand.

===Later history===
Hithlum, defenceless and beaten was thus taken by the treacherous [[Swarthy Men]] who had been so instrumental in Morgoth's victory without any notable resistance of what remained of the people of the House of Hador.

From this point the lives of the people of Hador became one of marginal slavery. The House of Hador fared badly under the [[Incomers]]; brutally suppressed, their lands were taken and their women forced into marriage with the new despot-lords of Hithlum. The nobility of the House went into hiding or killed trying to flee. Húrin's son and heir (and officially now Lord of the House) [[Túrin]] was too young to lead and so was sent away to [[Doriath]] for his safety by his [[Morwen|mother]] and Huor's son Tuor was only born the year of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad and so was similarly guarded; fostered by the [[Sindar|grey elves]] that still inhabited the mountains of [[Mithrim]]. Those that could escape in the years that followed did-so fleeing to those havens of the elves that still stood but the House of Hador ceased to be as a coherent entity in much the same manner as the [[House of Bëor]] had suffered in the aftermath of the Dagor Bragollach.

None the less, when the surviving Edain were granted the gift-land of [[Númenor]] the House of Hador was still the greatest in size of all the Houses and so made up the greater portion of the [[Númenóreans]].<ref name="Life">{{NM|P3xi}}, p. 317</ref>
[[Hatholdir]] was a noble who was descendant of the House of Hador.<ref>{{UT|Wife}}</ref>

It was believed in [[Gondor]] (somewhat inaccurately<ref name="DM" /><ref>{{PM|XNotes}}, #61</ref>) that some of the sons of the House who refused the call to [[Elenna]], became the direct ancestors of the [[Northmen]]; explaining thus the affinity the [[Rohirrim]] had with the [[Gondorians]].<ref>{{TT|IV5}}</ref>

==Physical characteristics==
[[File:ForeverMedhok - Hador.png|thumb|''Hador'' by [[:Category:Images by ForeverMedhok|ForeverMedhok]]]]
The people of the House of Hador tended to be hardy and enduring in cold and distances, strong, tall, bold and steadfast (second to those of the First House), swift in body, with blue eyes, fair skin, and golden hair; they were noble and generous, ready in mind and quick to anger and laughter. There were some among them who were dark-haired (a trait sometimes inherited from the [[House of Beor]]).,<ref name="DM" />{{rp|307}}<ref>{{S|Men}}</ref> and those members showed an interest in crafts and lore.<ref>{{PM|XNotes}}, #43</ref> They were marked as being the tallest men inhabitants of Beleriand, even taller than the Elves.<ref>{{LR|Quenta}}, p. 276</ref> They were the largest of the Houses and also the most warlike.

Their features and traits were such, that young members of the House were almost indistinguishable from the Eldar, a fact that was remembered in elven songs ever after. The swift fading of this condition was a grief and a mystery to the Eldar.<ref>{{PM|XNotes}}, #47</ref>

Their language was closely related with that of the Folk of Bëor, but their dialect, the main dialect of [[Taliska]] which became [[Adûnaic]], was more uniform with fewer alien influences.<ref name="DM" /> As [[Elf-friends]] they also spoke [[Sindarin]].

==Other names==
The [[Sindarin]] name for "House of Hador" was '''''Bar Hador'''''.<ref>{{MR|P5I}}, p. 373. The first word appears in the [[lenition|lenited]] compound form ''e-mbar'' ("''of'' the House")</ref>

==Genealogy==
A dagger symbol '†' signifies those who did not die of old age. A name preceded by '#*' indicates a ruler of the house, with the number specifying the order.

{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | MAR | | | | | | | | | | | | |MAR=1* [[Marach]] ''{{FA|282}} - {{FA|376|n}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | |,|-|^|-|.| | | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | ZIM |y| MAL | | IML | | | | | | | | | | |ZIM=[[Zimrahin]] ''unknown''|MAL=2* [[Malach]] ''{{FA|307|n}} - {{FA|398|n}}''|IML=[[Imlach]] ''b. {{FA|310|n}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | |,|-|^|-|.| | | |!| | | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | BEL |V| ADA | | MAG | | AML | | | | | | | | | | |BEL=[[Belemir]] ''b. {{FA|339|n}}''|ADA=[[Adanel]] ''b. {{FA|339|n}}''|MAG=3* [[Magor]] ''b. {{FA|341|n}}''|AML=[[Amlach]] ''b. {{FA|337|n}}''}}
{{familytree | | | |:| | | | | |!| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | BEO | | | | HAT | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |BEO=''[[House of Bëor]]''|HAT=4* [[Hathol]] ''b. {{FA|365|n}}''}}
{{familytree | | | |:| | | | | |!| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | HAD |y| GIL | | | | | | | | | | |HAD=5* [[Hador]] ''{{FA|390|n}} - {{FA|455|n}}''|GIL=[[Gildis]] ''unknown''}}
{{familytree | | | | | |,|-|-|-|v|-|^|-|-|-|-|-|.| | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | HAL |V| GLO | | GAL |y| HAR | | GUN | | | | | | |HAL=[[Haldir (Chieftain of the Haladin)|Haldir]] ''{{FA|414|n}} - {{FA|472|n}}''|GLO=[[Glóredhel]] ''{{FA|415|n}} - {{FA|472|n}}''|GAL=6* [[Galdor (Lord of Dor-lómin)|Galdor]] ''{{FA|417|n}} - {{FA|462|n}}''|HAR=[[Hareth]] ''b. {{FA|420|n}}''|GUN=[[Gundor]] ''{{FA|419|n}} - {{FA|455|n}}''}}
{{familytree | | | |:| | | | | | | |)|-|-|-|.| | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | HAL | | MOR |y| HUR | | HUO |y| RIA | | | | |HAL=''[[House of Haleth]]''|MOR=[[Morwen]] ''{{FA|441|n}} - {{FA|501|n}}''|HUR=7* [[Húrin]] ''{{FA|441|n}} - {{FA|502|n}}''|HUO=[[Huor]] ''{{FA|444|n}} - {{FA|472|n}}|RIA=[[Rían]] ''{{FA|450|n}} - {{FA|472|n}}''}}
{{familytree | | | |:| |,|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|.| | | |!| | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | TUR | | LAL | | NIE | | TUO |y| IDR | | |TUR=[[Túrin]] ''{{FA|464|n}} - {{FA|499|n}}''|LAL=[[Lalaith]] ''{{FA|466|n}} - {{FA|469|n}}''|NIE=[[Nienor]] ''{{FA|473|n}} - {{FA|499|n}}''|TUO=[[Tuor]] ''b. {{FA|472|n}}''|IDR=[[Idril]] ''b. {{YT}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | |L|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|J| | | | | |!| | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | EAR |y| ELW |EAR=[[Eärendil]] ''b. {{FA|503|n}}''|ELW=[[Elwing]] ''b. {{FA|503}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |,|-|^|-|.| |}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ROS | | RON |ROS=[[Elros]] ''{{FA|532}} - {{SA|442}}''|RON=[[Elrond]] ''born {{FA|532}}''}}
{{familytree/end}}
{{references}}
[[Category:House of Hador| ]]
[[Category:Mannish noble houses|Hador]]
[[de:Haus Hador]]
[[fr:encyclo:peuples:hommes:peuple de hador]]
[[fi:Hadorin kansa]]
[[fi:Hadorin Huone]]

Talk:Elendil

2025-10-07T19:09:57Z

Erendis: /* Elendil's height bis (in order to answer) */ new section

= Elendil's height =
The source for Elendil being 7 feet tall is from about 1968/9, so I'm pretty sure it postdates the one about him being 7'11. {{unsignedanon|172.68.221.49}}

= Main image change =
As per the discussion on Discord, I propose that we change the infobox image to [https://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/a/a7/Artigas_-_King_Elendil.jpg this] artwork by Sergio Artigas.

The main reason being that the above image represents the characteristics of Elendil more accurately than either the current infobox image or any other artwork on TG depicting Elendil for that matter:

1) Elendil is supposed to be beardless, like all the descendants of Elros, as per ''[[The Nature of Middle-earth]]'', chapter 5 ('Beards') of the 'Part Two' of the book.

2) Elendil is here pictured wearing the [[Elendilmir]], as well as holding the [[Sceptre of Annúminas]] - and about his waist is [[Narsil]] sheathed in a scabbard. He is also wearing a ring on his right hand which, while unclear, might be the [[Ring of Barahir]].

3) His features and physique seem very imposing, reflecting the notion of him being nicknamed "the Tall" (either 7 foot tall [2.13 m], or 7'11 [2.41 m], depending on the source).

The only potential problem is that, IMO (as well as that of [[User:LorenzoCB]]), the frame surrounding the main portion of the image should be cropped (which I already did - and uploaded it on [https://i.imgur.com/EO2fVno.jpg Imgur]).

So if my proposal is accepted, I will upload the cropped image to TG. - [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 13:18, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

:Agree on all points. [[User:JR Snow|JR Snow]] ([[User talk:JR Snow|talk]]) 14:22, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

== Elendil's height bis (in order to answer) ==

someone said : "The source for Elendil being 7 feet tall is from about 1968/9, so I'm pretty sure it postdates the one about him being 7'11." —''Unsigned comment by'' [[Special:Contributions/172.68.221.49|172.68.221.49]] ([[User talk:172.68.221.49|talk]]).

That's true. But the quote in LotR reader's companion is uncorrect ; the right quote is readable in the NoMe, part 2 chap 6 "Heights" : "Elendil the Tall, leader of the Faithful who survived the Downfall, was said to have surpassed 7 ft., though his sons were not quite so tall."

So there is no "different acount". [[User:Erendis|Erendis]] ([[User talk:Erendis|talk]]) 19:09, 7 October 2025 (UTC)

History of Arda

2025-07-04T19:09:14Z

Erendis: /* Years of the Trees */ The 1st Age begins with the awakening of the Elves, not with the birth of the Sun.

{{History of Arda}}
The '''History of [[Arda]]''' is divided into three time periods, known as the [[Days before days]], [[Years of the Trees]] and [[Years of the Sun]]. A separate, overlapping chronology divides the history into 'Ages of the Children of Ilúvatar'. The first such Age began with the Awakening of the Elves during the Years of the Trees and continued for the first six centuries of the Years of the Sun. All the subsequent Ages took place during the Years of the Sun. Most Middle-earth stories take place in the first three Ages of the Children of Iluvatar.

===Music of the Ainur===
{{main|Music of the Ainur}}

The supreme deity of Tolkien's universe is called [[Ilúvatar|Eru Ilúvatar]]. In the beginning, Ilúvatar created spirits named the [[Ainur]]. Ilúvatar made divine music with them. [[Morgoth|Melkor]], who was then one of the Ainur, broke the harmony of the music, until Ilúvatar began a third theme which the Ainur could not comprehend since they were not the source of it. The essence of their song symbolized the history of the whole universe and the [[Children of Ilúvatar]] that were to dwell in it — the [[Men]] and the [[Elves]].

Then Ilúvatar created [[Eä]], the universe itself, and the Ainur formed within it Arda, the Earth, "globed within the void": the world together with the airs is set apart from ''Kuma'', the "void" without. The first 15 of the Ainur that descended to Arda, and the most powerful ones, were called Valar, and the Ainur of lesser might that followed were called Maiar.

===Days before days===
{{main|Days before days}}

The '''Days before days''' began shortly after the creation of Arda by the [[Valar]]. After the Valar entered the world, there was a light veiling the ground. The Valar took this light and concentrated it into two large lamps, [[Illuin]] and [[Ormal]]. In a version, the Vala [[Morgoth|Melkor]] forged great pillars, one in the furthest north, and another in the deepest south. The Valar lived in the middle, at the island of [[Almaren]]. The end of the Days before days was marked by [[Morgoth|Melkor]]'s destruction of the Two Lamps.

====Spring of Arda====
{{main|Spring of Arda}}
The '''Spring of Arda''' was a period of peace and flourishing during the Days before days that started when the [[First War]] between the Valar ended.

===Years of the Trees===
{{main|Years of the Trees}}

Shortly after the destruction of the Two Lamps, [[Yavanna]] made the [[Two Trees]], named [[Telperion]] (the silver tree) and [[Laurelin]] (the gold tree) in the land of [[Aman]], where the Valar now lived. The Trees illumined Aman, leaving Middle-earth in darkness.

The [[Awakening of the Elves|Elves awoke]] in [[Cuiviénen]] when the stars were Rekindled, beginning the [[Ages of the Children of Ilúvatar]]. Many, though not all, of the [[Elves]] were persuaded to go on the [[Great Journey]] westwards towards Aman. Along the journey several groups of Elves tarried, notably the [[Nandor]] and the [[Sindar]]. The three clans that arrived at Aman were the [[Vanyar]], [[Noldor|Ñoldor]] and the [[Teleri]].

The Valar had captured Melkor and placed him in chains in Aman. After he appeared to repent and was released, he sowed great discord among the Elves, and stirred up rivalry between the Ñoldorin King [[Finwë]]'s two sons [[Fëanor]] and [[Fingolfin]]. Out of jealousy and hatred for the Silmarils—three gems crafted by Feänor that contained the light of the Two Trees—he stole them, killing Finwë who was guarding the jewels; then with the help of the creature [[Ungoliant]] he destroyed the Two Trees and escaped to Middle-earth.

Bitter at the Valar's inactivity, Feänor and his house left to pursue Melkor, cursing him with the name 'Morgoth'. A larger host, commanded by [[Fingolfin]] followed him. They reached the Telerin port-city of [[Alqualondë]], and were forbidden to use the Telerin ships. Feänor decided to take them by force and thus the [[Kinslaying at Alqualondë|first Kinslaying]] ensued and only by the strength in numbers were the Teleri overcome and their fair ships stolen.

Feänor's host sailed on the vessels, and burned them when he arrived in Middle-earth. Left behind, Fingolfin and his company crossed over to Middle-earth through [[Helcaraxë|the Grinding Ice]] in the far north. Around the same time, but separately, Galadriel and Celeborn set sail for Middle-earth without the permission of the Valar.

===Years of the Sun===
{{main|Years of the Sun}}
The Years of the Sun began when the Valar made the Sun and the Moon out of the final fruit of [[Laurelin]] and the final flower of [[Telperion]] and set them in the heavens. Thereafter years were reckoned in Middle-earth as they are in our own real world. The First Age of the Children of Ilúvatar continued into this new reckoning of time.

==== First Age's Years of the Sun ====
{{main|First Age}}

Feänor was soon lost in an attack on Morgoth's [[Balrogs]] - but his sons survived, and founded realms; the kingdoms of the House of Fingolfin.

The Long Peace lasted hundreds of years; during which time [[Men]] arrived over the [[Blue Mountains]]. But the peace was not to last; and one by one the kingdoms — even the hidden ones of [[Gondolin]] and [[Doriath]] — fell.

At the end of the age, all that remained of free Elves and Men in [[Beleriand]] was a settlement at the mouth of the River [[Sirion]] and another settlement on the isle of Balar. [[Eärendil]] had possession of a Silmaril, which his wife [[Elwing]]'s ancestors [[Beren]] and [[Lúthien]] had taken from Morgoth. But the Feänorians had a claim on the Silmaril still and so there was another Kinslaying. Eärendil and Elwing took the Silmaril across the [[Belegaer|Great Sea]], to beg the Valar for aid.

They responded. Melkor was exiled into the Void; and most of his works were destroyed. This came at a terrible cost, as [[Beleriand]] itself was sunk.

====Second Age====
{{main|Second Age}}

The Men who had remained faithful were given the island of [[Númenor]], in the middle of the Great Sea; whilst the Elves were allowed to return home.

The Númenoreans became great seafarers, but became jealous of the Elves for their immortality. Meanwhile, in Middle-earth it became apparent that [[Sauron]], Morgoth's chief servant, was still active. He worked with Elven smiths in [[Eregion]] on the craft of rings, and forged [[the One Ring]] to dominate them all. The Elves noticed this and removed theirs.

Towards the end of the age, the Númenoreans were growing increasingly proud. King [[Ar-Pharazôn]] humbled even Sauron and brought him to Númenor as a hostage. Sauron worked his way into Pharazôn's court, and became high priest in a cult of Melkor. Eventually, Pharazôn was persuaded to attempt to invade Aman, promised that immortality would result.

[[Amandil]], chief of the faithful, sailed westward to warn the Valar of this. His son [[Elendil]] and grandsons [[Isildur]] and [[Anárion]] prepared to flee eastwards. When the King's men had landed on Aman, the Valar lay down their guardianship of the world and called for Ilúvatar to intervene.

The world was changed into a sphere, and the straight road from Middle-earth to Aman was broken. Númenor was utterly destroyed, as was the fair body of Sauron. Elendil and his sons founded the realms of [[Gondor]] and [[Arnor]].

Sauron arose again and challenged them. The Elves allied with the Men to form the [[Last Alliance]] which defeated him. His One Ring was taken from him by Isildur, but not destroyed.

====Third Age====
{{main|Third Age}}

The Third Age saw the rise in power of the realms of [[Arnor]] and [[Gondor]], and their fall. Arnor was divided into three petty Kingdoms, which fell one by one, whilst Gondor fell victim to [[Kin-strife]], plague, wainriders, and corsairs.

By the time of ''The Lord of the Rings'', [[Sauron]] had recovered again, and was seeking the One Ring. He discovered that it was in the possession of a [[Hobbits|Hobbit]] named [[Bilbo Baggins|Baggins]], and sent out the [[Nazgûl|Ringwraiths]] to find him and retrieve it.

The Ring-bearer, [[Frodo Baggins]], is sent to [[Rivendell]], where it is decided that the One Ring must be destroyed once and for all — and it can only be unmade in the fiery depths of [[Mount Doom]] where it was forged. He sets out on this quest with eight other companions who comprise ''The Fellowship of the Ring''.

After a long and difficult journey, he and [[Samwise Gamgee]] finally complete the mission, succeeding largely due to an unforeseen event that was out of their control. [[Sauron]] is thus destroyed forever and they are lauded as heroes.

[[Aragorn]] takes his place as King of the [[Reunited Kingdom]] of [[Arnor]] and [[Gondor]], at last restoring the line of Kings from the [[Stewards of Gondor]].

====Fourth Age and after====
{{main|Fourth Age}}

The end of the Third Age marked the end of the involvement of the Elves in Mannish affairs, despite a short-lived revival of Elven presence in Gondor under [[Legolas]]. Most Elves that have lingered in Middle-earth leave for Valinor — those that remain behind "fade", and eventually diminish. A similar fate happens to the Dwarves: although [[Lonely Mountain|Erebor]] becomes an ally of the [[Reunited Kingdom]] and there are indications [[Moria|Khazad-dûm]] is refounded, and a colony is established under [[Gimli]] in the [[White Mountains]], they become ever more reclusive, and disappear from mannish history. Morgoth's creatures are almost wiped out and never recover. During the later Fourth Age the tales of the earlier Ages turn into legends, until they are eventually thought of as fantasies, as the heirs of the Númenóreans forget their heritage.

Tolkien imagined that he lived perhaps about 6000 years after the [[War of the Ring]], [[Ages#Further future|in the Fifth, Sixth or Seventh Age]].

==End of Arda==
{{main|Dagor Dagorath}}
After contemplating [[Arda Marred|Arda's decay]], the Elves could deduce that Arda had to come to an end. There are also many mentions of this end happening with a Last Battle after Morgoth's return. After his defeat, it is said that Men and Ainur will make a [[Second Music of the Ainur|Second Music]] in front of Ilúvatar.

[[Category:Chronology]]

History of Arda

2025-07-04T19:05:31Z

Erendis: /* Days before days */ 1) not "towers" but "pillars" ; 2) Where Aulë is mentioned as creator of the pillars ?

{{History of Arda}}
The '''History of [[Arda]]''' is divided into three time periods, known as the [[Days before days]], [[Years of the Trees]] and [[Years of the Sun]]. A separate, overlapping chronology divides the history into 'Ages of the Children of Ilúvatar'. The first such Age began with the Awakening of the Elves during the Years of the Trees and continued for the first six centuries of the Years of the Sun. All the subsequent Ages took place during the Years of the Sun. Most Middle-earth stories take place in the first three Ages of the Children of Iluvatar.

===Music of the Ainur===
{{main|Music of the Ainur}}

The supreme deity of Tolkien's universe is called [[Ilúvatar|Eru Ilúvatar]]. In the beginning, Ilúvatar created spirits named the [[Ainur]]. Ilúvatar made divine music with them. [[Morgoth|Melkor]], who was then one of the Ainur, broke the harmony of the music, until Ilúvatar began a third theme which the Ainur could not comprehend since they were not the source of it. The essence of their song symbolized the history of the whole universe and the [[Children of Ilúvatar]] that were to dwell in it — the [[Men]] and the [[Elves]].

Then Ilúvatar created [[Eä]], the universe itself, and the Ainur formed within it Arda, the Earth, "globed within the void": the world together with the airs is set apart from ''Kuma'', the "void" without. The first 15 of the Ainur that descended to Arda, and the most powerful ones, were called Valar, and the Ainur of lesser might that followed were called Maiar.

===Days before days===
{{main|Days before days}}

The '''Days before days''' began shortly after the creation of Arda by the [[Valar]]. After the Valar entered the world, there was a light veiling the ground. The Valar took this light and concentrated it into two large lamps, [[Illuin]] and [[Ormal]]. In a version, the Vala [[Morgoth|Melkor]] forged great pillars, one in the furthest north, and another in the deepest south. The Valar lived in the middle, at the island of [[Almaren]]. The end of the Days before days was marked by [[Morgoth|Melkor]]'s destruction of the Two Lamps.

====Spring of Arda====
{{main|Spring of Arda}}
The '''Spring of Arda''' was a period of peace and flourishing during the Days before days that started when the [[First War]] between the Valar ended.

===Years of the Trees===
{{main|Years of the Trees}}

Shortly after the destruction of the Two Lamps, [[Yavanna]] made the [[Two Trees]], named [[Telperion]] (the silver tree) and [[Laurelin]] (the gold tree) in the land of [[Aman]], where the Valar now lived. The Trees illumined Aman, leaving Middle-earth in darkness.

The [[Awakening of the Elves|Elves awoke]] in [[Cuiviénen]] when the stars were Rekindled, beginning the [[Ages of the Children of Ilúvatar]]. Many, though not all, of the [[Elves]] were persuaded to go on the [[Great Journey]] westwards towards Aman. Along the journey several groups of Elves tarried, notably the [[Nandor]] and the [[Sindar]]. The three clans that arrived at Aman were the [[Vanyar]], [[Noldor|Ñoldor]] and the [[Teleri]].

The Valar had captured Melkor and placed him in chains in Aman. After he appeared to repent and was released, he sowed great discord among the Elves, and stirred up rivalry between the Ñoldorin King [[Finwë]]'s two sons [[Fëanor]] and [[Fingolfin]]. Out of jealousy and hatred for the Silmarils—three gems crafted by Feänor that contained the light of the Two Trees—he stole them, killing Finwë who was guarding the jewels; then with the help of the creature [[Ungoliant]] he destroyed the Two Trees and escaped to Middle-earth.

Bitter at the Valar's inactivity, Feänor and his house left to pursue Melkor, cursing him with the name 'Morgoth'. A larger host, commanded by [[Fingolfin]] followed him. They reached the Telerin port-city of [[Alqualondë]], and were forbidden to use the Telerin ships. Feänor decided to take them by force and thus the [[Kinslaying at Alqualondë|first Kinslaying]] ensued and only by the strength in numbers were the Teleri overcome and their fair ships stolen.

Feänor's host sailed on the vessels, and burned them when he arrived in Middle-earth. Left behind, Fingolfin and his company crossed over to Middle-earth through [[Helcaraxë|the Grinding Ice]] in the far north. Around the same time, but separately, Galadriel and Celeborn set sail for Middle-earth without the permission of the Valar.

===Years of the Sun===
{{main|Years of the Sun}}
The Years of the Sun began when the Valar made the Sun and the Moon out of the final fruit of [[Laurelin]] and the final flower of [[Telperion]] and set them in the heavens. Thereafter years were reckoned in Middle-earth as they are in our own real world. The First Age of the Children of Ilúvatar continued into this new reckoning of time.

====First Age====
{{main|First Age}}

Feänor was soon lost in an attack on Morgoth's [[Balrogs]] - but his sons survived, and founded realms; the kingdoms of the House of Fingolfin.

The Long Peace lasted hundreds of years; during which time [[Men]] arrived over the [[Blue Mountains]]. But the peace was not to last; and one by one the kingdoms — even the hidden ones of [[Gondolin]] and [[Doriath]] — fell.

At the end of the age, all that remained of free Elves and Men in [[Beleriand]] was a settlement at the mouth of the River [[Sirion]] and another settlement on the isle of Balar. [[Eärendil]] had possession of a Silmaril, which his wife [[Elwing]]'s ancestors [[Beren]] and [[Lúthien]] had taken from Morgoth. But the Feänorians had a claim on the Silmaril still and so there was another Kinslaying. Eärendil and Elwing took the Silmaril across the [[Belegaer|Great Sea]], to beg the Valar for aid.

They responded. Melkor was exiled into the Void; and most of his works were destroyed. This came at a terrible cost, as [[Beleriand]] itself was sunk.

====Second Age====
{{main|Second Age}}

The Men who had remained faithful were given the island of [[Númenor]], in the middle of the Great Sea; whilst the Elves were allowed to return home.

The Númenoreans became great seafarers, but became jealous of the Elves for their immortality. Meanwhile, in Middle-earth it became apparent that [[Sauron]], Morgoth's chief servant, was still active. He worked with Elven smiths in [[Eregion]] on the craft of rings, and forged [[the One Ring]] to dominate them all. The Elves noticed this and removed theirs.

Towards the end of the age, the Númenoreans were growing increasingly proud. King [[Ar-Pharazôn]] humbled even Sauron and brought him to Númenor as a hostage. Sauron worked his way into Pharazôn's court, and became high priest in a cult of Melkor. Eventually, Pharazôn was persuaded to attempt to invade Aman, promised that immortality would result.

[[Amandil]], chief of the faithful, sailed westward to warn the Valar of this. His son [[Elendil]] and grandsons [[Isildur]] and [[Anárion]] prepared to flee eastwards. When the King's men had landed on Aman, the Valar lay down their guardianship of the world and called for Ilúvatar to intervene.

The world was changed into a sphere, and the straight road from Middle-earth to Aman was broken. Númenor was utterly destroyed, as was the fair body of Sauron. Elendil and his sons founded the realms of [[Gondor]] and [[Arnor]].

Sauron arose again and challenged them. The Elves allied with the Men to form the [[Last Alliance]] which defeated him. His One Ring was taken from him by Isildur, but not destroyed.

====Third Age====
{{main|Third Age}}

The Third Age saw the rise in power of the realms of [[Arnor]] and [[Gondor]], and their fall. Arnor was divided into three petty Kingdoms, which fell one by one, whilst Gondor fell victim to [[Kin-strife]], plague, wainriders, and corsairs.

By the time of ''The Lord of the Rings'', [[Sauron]] had recovered again, and was seeking the One Ring. He discovered that it was in the possession of a [[Hobbits|Hobbit]] named [[Bilbo Baggins|Baggins]], and sent out the [[Nazgûl|Ringwraiths]] to find him and retrieve it.

The Ring-bearer, [[Frodo Baggins]], is sent to [[Rivendell]], where it is decided that the One Ring must be destroyed once and for all — and it can only be unmade in the fiery depths of [[Mount Doom]] where it was forged. He sets out on this quest with eight other companions who comprise ''The Fellowship of the Ring''.

After a long and difficult journey, he and [[Samwise Gamgee]] finally complete the mission, succeeding largely due to an unforeseen event that was out of their control. [[Sauron]] is thus destroyed forever and they are lauded as heroes.

[[Aragorn]] takes his place as King of the [[Reunited Kingdom]] of [[Arnor]] and [[Gondor]], at last restoring the line of Kings from the [[Stewards of Gondor]].

====Fourth Age and after====
{{main|Fourth Age}}

The end of the Third Age marked the end of the involvement of the Elves in Mannish affairs, despite a short-lived revival of Elven presence in Gondor under [[Legolas]]. Most Elves that have lingered in Middle-earth leave for Valinor — those that remain behind "fade", and eventually diminish. A similar fate happens to the Dwarves: although [[Lonely Mountain|Erebor]] becomes an ally of the [[Reunited Kingdom]] and there are indications [[Moria|Khazad-dûm]] is refounded, and a colony is established under [[Gimli]] in the [[White Mountains]], they become ever more reclusive, and disappear from mannish history. Morgoth's creatures are almost wiped out and never recover. During the later Fourth Age the tales of the earlier Ages turn into legends, until they are eventually thought of as fantasies, as the heirs of the Númenóreans forget their heritage.

Tolkien imagined that he lived perhaps about 6000 years after the [[War of the Ring]], [[Ages#Further future|in the Fifth, Sixth or Seventh Age]].

==End of Arda==
{{main|Dagor Dagorath}}
After contemplating [[Arda Marred|Arda's decay]], the Elves could deduce that Arda had to come to an end. There are also many mentions of this end happening with a Last Battle after Morgoth's return. After his defeat, it is said that Men and Ainur will make a [[Second Music of the Ainur|Second Music]] in front of Ilúvatar.

[[Category:Chronology]]

Arda

2025-06-28T15:16:15Z

Erendis: /* Beginnings */ Tolkien's texts have "pilars" not "towers" to suport Ormal and Illuin.

{{short description|World within Eä}}
{{disambig-more|Arda|[[Arda (disambiguation)]]}}
{{location infobox
| name=Arda
| image=Ambarkanta Map V upscale.png
| caption="Ambarkanta Map" (coloured) by [[J.R.R. Tolkien]]
| pronun=[[Quenya|Q]], {{IPA|[ˈarda]}}
| othernames=''Aþāraphelūn'' ([[Valarin|V]]), ''Ardhon'' ([[Sindarin|S]])
| location=Within [[Eä]]
| type=The World
| description=A habitable round mass of land, water and airs under the [[Sun]], [[Moon]] and [[stars]].
| regions=[[Aman]] (including [[Valinor]]), [[Middle-earth]] (including [[Beleriand]]), [[Dark Land]], [[Númenor]], [[Land of the Sun]]
| towns=
| inhabitants=[[Ainur]], [[Elves]], [[Men]], [[Dwarves]], [[:Category:Races|and others]].
| created={{VY|1}} or earlier
| destroyed=
| events=''See: [[:Category:Events]]''
}}
{{quote|Behold I love the Earth, which shall be a mansion for the Quendi and the Atani!|Ilúvatar in ''[[Of the Beginning of Days]]''}}
'''Arda''' ([[Quenya|Q]]: "Realm") was the [[Quenya]] name for the world as a whole. Arda was created within [[Eä]] by [[Ilúvatar|Eru Ilúvatar]]. It was then shaped by the [[Valar]], with continental masses such as [[Middle-earth]] and [[Aman]], and oceans, like [[Belegaer]].

Arda was the home of [[Elves]], [[Men]], [[Dwarves]] and other [[:Portal:Characters|races]] as well as the [[kelvar]] and [[olvar]]. Some of the [[Ainur]] govern the world under [[Ilúvatar|Eru]]'s mandate.

==Beginnings==
{{Main|Days before days}}
[[File:Jacek Kopalski - Creation of Arda.jpg|thumb|left|125px|"Creation of Arda" by [[:Category:Images by Jacek Kopalski|Jacek Kopalski]]]]
Arda was first brought into existence with the [[Music of the Ainur]], for the purpose of creating a home for the [[Children of Ilúvatar]]. Ilúvatar appointed the [[Valar]] as its masters, and it was built mainly by [[Manwë]], [[Aulë]] and [[Ulmo]].

But even before the coming of some [[Ainur]] there were other beings inhabiting Arda, perhaps without the Ainur's involvement or knowledge.<ref group="note">In [[The Book of Lost Tales]], the nature and origin of [[Ungoliant]] is said to be a mystery even for the Valar.</ref> One of them was [[Iarwain Ben-adar]]<ref>{{FR|Bombadil|50}}, p. 131</ref> and other mysterious [[nameless things]] that eventually withdrew in caves under mountains.<ref>{{TT|White|50}}, p. 501</ref><ref>{{H|Riddles}}</ref>

The Valar invented its geography, for at the time it was largely without feature and gave it symmetry and form. But then [[Morgoth|Melkor]] wanted Arda for himself, and the two sides engaged in the titanic [[First War]] where [[Arda Marred|Arda was marred]] and its plan was altered.<ref>{{S|Ainu}}</ref>

As for light source, the Valar decided upon [[Two Lamps|two lamps]]. One, a blue light, was placed at the north, and it was called [[Illuin]]. The other, a golden light, was placed at the very southernmost point, and was called [[Ormal]]. [[Aulë]], craftsman of the Valar, forged two pillars : [[Helkar]] and [[Ringil (tower)|Ringil]], placed at the north and south respectively. The Valar chose as their own home the green isle [[Almaren]] in the center of Arda between the two pillars.

It was at that time that [[Morgoth|Melkor]] made his first attempt, spreading chaos across Arda. He destroyed the Lamps and the pillars, ruining the symmetry of the world. At this time, the continents of [[Aman]], [[Endor]], and the [[Uttermost East|Land of the Sun]] were formed. In the midst of Endor where the Two Lamps fell into ruin, the [[Sea of Helcar]] and the [[Sea of Ringil]] formed.

{{Seealso|History of Arda}}

==Geography==
===Before the Shifting===
[[File:Sage - Almaren.png|thumb|left|Original symmetric shape of Arda with [[Almaren]] in the middle. The [[Iron Mountains]] can be seen on the North, created by [[Morgoth|Melkor]] to protect himself from the Valar.]]
Arda was originally flat, like a plate. Encircling the continents was [[Ekkaia]], the Encircling Sea. Farthest to the West was the great continent of [[Aman]], composed primarily of two geographical features: the Plain of [[Valinor]], and the [[Pelóri]] Mountains. [[Taniquetil]] was the highest mountain in this range, and in the world. Separating Aman from the lands to the east was the great sea of [[Belegaer]].

Across Belegaer was [[Middle-earth]], known also as [[Endor]] or the [[Hither Lands]]. The west side of this land mass was called [[Beleriand]], the north [[Dor Daedeloth]], and the east [[Palisor]]. According to [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]]'s earlier maps, it was in Palisor that there was the great inland [[Sea of Helcar]], and the shores of [[Cuiviénen]]. At its farthest northwestern point, Middle-earth was joined to Aman by the [[Helcaraxë]], a deathly cold region of grinding ice.

Middle-earth was dominated by many mountain ranges. Separating Beleriand from the inner lands of Middle-earth were the [[Blue Mountains|Ered Luin]], the Blue Mountains. To the far east there were the [[Orocarni]], the Red Mountains. Between the Blue Mountains and Red Mountains, Melkor had raised up the [[Misty Mountains|Hithaeglir]], the Misty Mountains, to hinder the hunts of the Vala [[Oromë]] in Middle-earth. These three northern ranges were joined together at their northernmost ends by the [[Iron Mountains]], raised by Melkor in the ages before the fall of the Two Lamps.

In the south of Middle-earth were the [[Grey Mountains (ancient)|Grey Mountains]], and in the southeast there were the [[Yellow Mountains]]. In the far east between the Orocarni in the north and the Yellow Mountains in the south there lay the [[Mountains of the Wind]]. However, when the Valar went to war against Melkor in the [[Battle of the Powers]], much of Arda was changed again. The Yellow Mountains and the Mountains of the Wind were lost, and the [[Great Gulf]] formed between Beleriand and the lands to the far south. To the east, the [[East Sea]] and the [[Sea of Ringil]] joined together, dividing Middle-earth from a new continent known only as the [[Dark Land]] or the South Lands.<ref>{{SM|Ambar}} p. 250-251</ref>

In its earliest days, Middle-earth was dominated by a great forest spanning from the western shores to the Misty Mountains and possibly beyond. However, this great forest dwindled throughout the ages, remaining only in the regions of the [[Old Forest]], [[Fangorn Forest]], [[Lothlórien]], and [[Eryn Vorn]]. [[Mirkwood|Greenwood the Great]] may also have been a remnant of this vast forest.<ref>{{UT|Galadriel}}</ref>

To the farthest east possible was the [[Uttermost East]], with a great curved mountain range called the [[Walls of the Sun]]. In the ''[[Ambarkanta]]'' it is called the “''Dark Land of the Sun''”. Corresponding to Taniquetil was the mountain [[Kalormë]].

===Second Age and Beyond===
[[File:Darrell Sweet - The Fall of Numenor.jpg|thumb|right|150px|''The Fall of Númenor'' by [[Darrell Sweet]]]]
During the tumultuous [[War of Wrath]], the Valar broke and reshaped much of the world. The lands of Beleriand sank beneath the Great Sea in this conflict, drowning many lands west of the Blue Mountains. There were some islands that remained of the old world: [[Tol Fuin]], [[Tol Morwen]], and [[Himring]]. On the mainland, only the realm of [[Lindon]] survived the sinking of Beleriand. Lindon and the Blue Mountains were split in two after the conflict by the [[Gulf of Lune]], possibly an eastward expansion of the ancient [[Bay of Balar]].<ref>[http://www.jrrvf.com/hisweloke/site3/articles.php?lng=en&pg=41 Hisweloke - Géographie - Mystère géographiques (1) : Mont Dolmed et cités naines...]</ref> The mainlands shrank back furthest in the [[Northern Waste|far north]] of the world, where the [[Icebay of Forochel]] was formed. To the south, the sinking of Beleriand robbed the Great Gulf of its northwestern ends, forming the [[Bay of Belfalas]] out of what remained.

After this catastrophic conflict, [[Ossë]] raised [[Elenna]] – a large, star-shaped isle – out of Belegaer, where the kingdom of [[Númenor]] would soon be settled.

The second great change was the [[Akallabêth|Drowning of Númenor]]. In this cataclysm, the world was stretched and made into the shape of a sphere. At that time Aman and the island of [[Tol Eressëa]] were removed from the [[Circles of the World]], and became inaccessible save by the [[Straight Road|Straight Way]]. It is said that new continents were made in place of the Undying Lands. Once again, the western coasts of Middle-earth changed, retreating in some places and advancing in others. It is unknown if the Uttermost East survived the Fall of Númenor.

==Eschatology==
The [[Elves]] held to the concept of [[Arda Marred]]. In the beginning, at the time of the Music of the Ainur, was [[Arda Unmarred]]. According to the idea of Arda Unmarred, the world was originally "unstained" by evil. It became Arda Marred after Melkor entered and introduced chaos. They also clung to the idea that one day the world would become [[Arda Healed]]. According to this belief, Arda Healed will not come about until the [[Dagor Dagorath]], the Last Battle.

==Tengwa==
[[File:Arda (tengwa).gif|left]]''Arda'' is also the name in [[Quenya]] of the twenty-sixth letter of the [[Tengwar]] alphabet.<ref>{{App|Letters}}, Note, ''The names of the letters''</ref> It is a modification of ''[[Rómen]]'' (letter 25). In written Quenya ''Arda'' is used for '''RD'''. In other modes this letter represents voiceless '''R''' (or '''RH''').<ref>{{App|Letters}}, Note, ''The additional letters''</ref> The Westron name for this letter is '''''Rhó'''''.<ref>See ''[[Alphabet of Fëanor: Numenian, or Westron, Mode]]''</ref>



==Etymology==
{{Pronounce|Arda.mp3|Ardamir}}
''Arda'' derives from the [[Primitive Quendian]] word ''gardā'' meaning "bounded or defined place, region".<ref name="Quendi">{{WJ|AD1}}</ref>{{rp|402, 413}}

===Other names===
''Arda'' is the [[Quenya]] name of the World, with its atmosphere and the celestial objects. The term [[Ambar]] is roughly equivalent and it probably refers to Earth without the celestial objects. It was also called '''Kingdom of Earth/Arda/Manwë''' and '''Little Kingdom'''. The [[Valarin]] name, from which Quenya ''Arda'' derived, was '''''Aþāraphelūn''''' ("appointed dwelling").<ref name="Quendi" />{{rp|401}}

The [[Sindarin]] version for ''Arda'' is '''''Ardhon''''', only attested in the name ''[[Ardamírë|Mîr n'Ardhon]]'' ("Jewel of the World").<ref name="Name">{{PM|XI}}: ''The names of Finwë's descendants'', p. 348</ref> However, it could be a [[Lenition|lenited]] form of ''gardhon'' (a combination of ''gardh'' ("region") with a suffixal element ''[[-on]]'').<ref>{{webcite|author=Paul Strack|articleurl=http://eldamo.org/content/words/word-2787701887.html|articlename=S. ''Ardhon'' loc.|dated=|website=Eldamo|accessed=31 January 2020}}</ref>

In [[Adûnaic]] the words '''''kamât''''' ("earth")<ref>{{SD|2eiii}}, p. 311</ref> and '''''dāira''''' ("Earth")<ref>{{SD|67}}, p. 247</ref> are given at different points. Another possible word is '''''Abat-''''', seen in the royal name [[Ar-Abattârik|''Abat''târik]] (Quenya: ''Arda''min).<ref>{{webcite|website=Arda|author=[[Helge Fauskanger]]|articlename=Adûnaic|articleurl=http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/adunaic.htm}}</ref>

==Theories==
Using the known sizes of [[Beleriand]] and [[Middle-earth]] when compared to the size of Beleriand on [[:File:J.R.R. Tolkien - Ambarkanta Map V.png|Map V]] of the [[Ambarkanta maps|''Ambarkanta'' maps]], [[Karen Wynn Fonstad]] has speculated that flat Arda's diameter was probably about 6,800 miles.<ref>{{HM|AME}}</ref> However, Diagram III of the ''Ambarkanta'' shows that the "Old Lands" made up half of Arda made round,<ref name="Ambar" /> implying that flat Arda would have been around 12,451 miles across, half the earth's circumference.<ref>{{webcite|articleurl=http://www.universetoday.com/26461/circumference-of-the-earth/|articlename=Circumference of the Earth|website=Universe Today|2 June 2016}}</ref> Precise estimations of the size of Arda are difficult to determine with Map V of the ''Ambarkanta'', which is said by [[Christopher Tolkien]] to be ''"a very rough sketch not to be interpreted too strictly"''.<ref name="Ambar" />{{rp|258}}

==Other versions of the legendarium==
[[File:J.R.R. Tolkien - I Vene Kemen.png|thumb|[[I Vene Kemen]]]]
In the early ''[[Book of Lost Tales]]'', the [[Qenya]] name for the Earth was ''kemi'' as well as ''mar''.<ref>{{LT2|Appendix}}</ref> An early schematic map of that era, displays the flat earth like a ship floating in the ocean of Vai.
[[File:J.R.R. Tolkien - Ambarkanta Map I.jpg|thumb|left|150px|Early Arda (Ilu) and the waters and airs surrounding it, as shown in the ''[[Ambarkanta maps|Ambarkanta]]''.]]
In the next phase of the legendarium, as described in ''[[The Ambarkanta]]'', the world has the Qenya names ''[[Ilu]]'' (being the wholeness of existence, the world, with its sky and air, equivalent to Arda of the later legendarium) or ''[[Ambar]]'' (being the "earthy", concrete part of Ilu) suspended in the [[Void]].<ref>{{SM|A1}}</ref>

Above the lands of Ambar was [[Vista]], the lowermost airs where the birds fly. Surrounding Vista were the airs of [[Ilmen]], the upper airs where the [[stars]] were set. The airs of Ilmen met with the earth in [[Valinor]] and the [[Uttermost East]] where it was widest, and the airs of Ilmen were narrowest in the far north and south. Beyond Ilmen was [[Vaiya]], the Encircling Sea which surrounds Arda on all its sides. It is said that the waters of Vaiya were more alike to air in the regions farthest above the earth, and alike to water beneath the earth. Surrounding all of the world beyond the Vaiya was the [[Ilurambar]], the Walls of the World, a cold and transparent globed barrier like ice and glass and steel, passable only by the [[Doors of Night]]. Beyond the Ilurambar there is naught but the [[Void|Outer Void]].<ref name="Ambar">{{SM|Ambar}}</ref>{{rp|235–240}}

The name ''Arda'' first appears in a later version of the ''[[Ainulindalë (Morgoth's Ring)|Ainulindalë]]'' from [[1951]], where the term ''Ea'' also appears, with Arda now being just a small part in the vast regions of Creation<ref>{{MR|P1e}}</ref> and not equated with it.

In the later [[Round World version of the Silmarillion]], there is the consideration that there are other worlds in Eä beside Arda where the innumerable Ainur labored, but Arda is of central importance in the Great Tale of Eä, as it is the stage of the conflict between the Great Enemy and the [[Eruhini]]. The distant worlds, and the Ainur who shaped them, are beyond the thought of Elves and Men.<ref>{{MR|P5II}}</ref>

==See also==
*[[Arda Marred]]
*[[Arda Unmarred]]
*[[Arda Healed]]
*[[Timeline]]

==External links==
*[http://www.physics.ccsu.edu/larsen/tolkien.html The Astronomy of Middle-earth] - collection of articles by [[Kristine Larsen]]
*[http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_astro.html Astronomical objects above Middle-earth] - [[Elvish]] names of celestial terms.

{{References|n}}
{{cosmology}}

[[Category:Arda| Arda]]
[[Category:Cosmology| ]]
[[Category:Quenya locations]]
[[Category:Quenya nouns]]
[[Category:Tengwar letters]]
[[de:Arda]]
[[fi:Arda]]
[[fr:/encyclo/geographie/astronomie/arda]]

Enchanted Isles

2025-06-14T21:00:54Z

Erendis: /* Other versions of the legendarium */ orthograph

{{location infobox
| name=Enchanted Isles
| image=
| caption=
| pronun=
| othernames=Shadowy Isles Magic Isles
| location=east of [[Tol Eressëa]]
| type=Archipelago
| description=an island chain ensnaring anyone without the permission to travel to [[Aman]]
| regions=
| towns=
| inhabitants=
| created=by the [[Valar]] after the [[Flight of the Noldor]]
| destroyed=removed after the [[Downfall of Númenor]]
| events=[[Eärendil]]'s voyage through the Enchanted Isles
}}

The '''Enchanted Isles''' or '''Shadowy Isles'''<ref>{{UT|1a}}, pp. 52-53, note 9</ref> were an archipelago in [[Belegaer]], east of [[Tol Eressëa]].

==History==
The archipelago was set by the [[Valar]] after the [[Flight of the Noldor]] to shield [[Valinor]] and Tol Eressëa. They had an uncertain number and no charted course could go through them, and as such they ensnared any ships trying to reach [[Aman]] without permission. Additionally the seas about them were filled with mists. The isles were enchanted, and anyone who set foot on them fell asleep forever. The creation of the Enchanted Isles and the Shadowy Seas was part of the ''[[Nurtalë Valinóreva]]'', the Hiding of Valinor.<ref>{{S|Sun}}</ref>

However, when [[Eärendil]] and [[Elwing]] came upon the Enchanted Isles in [[Vingilótë]] they passed through successfully. This may be attributed to the [[Silmaril]] that Eärendil wore upon his brow as they sailed into the West.<ref>{{S|Earendil}}</ref>

The isles were apparently either removed from [[Arda]] or at least made less sinister after the [[War of Wrath]], as Tol Eressëa could be seen from [[Meneltarma]] on [[Númenor]] without problems and no obstacles are mentioned when the [[Great Armament]] reached [[Eldamar]].<ref>{{S|Akallabeth}}</ref> Certainly after the [[Downfall of Númenor]] they were gone.

==Other versions of the legendarium==
[[Christopher Tolkien]] has suggested that the Enchanted Isles were likely inspired from what was known in early versions of the [[legendarium]] as the '''Magic Isles''' or '''Magic Archipelago'''.<ref>{{LT2|VI}}</ref> In an early map of the world titled ''[[I Vene Kemen]]'', the [[Qenya]] name '''''I Tolli Kuruvar''''' is glossed as "Magic Isles".<ref>{{LT1|Vene}}, pp. 84-85</ref>

==In other stories==
The Magic Isles are referenced in Tolkien's ''[[Roverandom]]''. In the story, written down in [[1927]], the great whale [[Uin]] takes the enchanted dog [[Rover]]andom (formerly known as Rover) on adventures through the seas: Uin takes Roverandom through the [[Shadowy Seas]] to the [[Bay of Eldamar|Bay of Fairyland]] beyond the Magic Isles where Rover saw the [[Pelóri|Mountains of Elvenhome]] and the light of Faery. Roverandom thought he could see the white glint of [[Tirion|a city of Elves on a green hill far away in the distance]].<ref name="Roverandom">{{HM|R}}, pp. 73-4</ref>

==See also==
*[[Shadowy Seas]]
*[[Sindanórië]]
*[[Twilit Isles]]

{{references}}
[[Category:Aman]]
[[Category:Islands]]
[[Category:Roverandom]]
[[de:Verwunschene Inseln]]
[[fr:encyclo/geographie/eaux/iles/iles enchantees]]
[[fi:Lumotut saaret]]

Talk:Enchanted Isles

2025-06-14T21:00:05Z

Erendis:

== Shadowy Isles different of Enchanted Isles ? ==

In the map IV of Ambarkanta, there are a little archipelago north of Enchanted Isles' line named "Shadowy Isles".

In UT chap 1 (Tuor), Note 9, it's Christopher who says that the Shadowy isles may be the Enchanted Isles. But the map IV says something else, don't you think ?

[[User:Erendis|Erendis]] ([[User talk:Erendis|talk]]) 20:58, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Enchanted Isles

2025-06-14T20:58:50Z

Erendis: /* Shadowy Isles different of Enchanted Isles ? */ new section

== Shadowy Isles different of Enchanted Isles ? ==

In the map IV of Ambarkanta, there are a little archipelago north of Enchanted Isles' line named "Shadowy Isles".

In UT chap 1 (Tuor), Note 9, it's Christopher who says that the Shadowy isles may be the Enchanted Isles. But the map IV says something else, don't you think ?

Besides, on this map, the Enchanted Isles are also named "The Magic Isles", a name whichis not in the article.

[[User:Erendis|Erendis]] ([[User talk:Erendis|talk]]) 20:58, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Helkar

2025-05-29T16:08:03Z

Erendis: /* "Tower" ? */ new section

== "Tower" ? ==

I think that "Ringil" and "Helkar" are not "towers" as may "Orthanc" or "Barad-dûr" be. Shouldn't it be removed of the category "Towers" ? [[User:Erendis|Erendis]] ([[User talk:Erendis|talk]]) 16:08, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

Helkar

2025-05-29T16:05:58Z

Erendis:

'''Helkar''' was one of the two pillars held one of the [[Two Lamps]] created to light [[Middle-earth]] in an early conception of the [[legendarium]].

==History==
Helkar was a great pillar, raised by [[Melko]] to house the ''southern'' of the [[Two Lamps]] fashioned by [[Aulë]] to illuminate [[Middle-earth]]. The pillar was extremely tall, rising to the stars, and shone like pale blue crystal. Melko claimed that Helkar and its northern twin [[Ringil (tower)|Ringil]] were made of a strong, imperishable substance that he had devised; in reality he lied for they were made of ice (a material unknown to the other [[Valar]]). Thus, when Aulë's lamps were placed upon them (silver in the north and gold in the south) the ice melted and caused great floods to pour into the seas.<ref>{{LT1|III}}, pp. 69-70</ref>

==Etymology==
''Helka'' is [[Qenya]] for "ice-cold". The [[Gnomish]] cognate was '''''Helchor'''''.<ref>{{LT1|Appendix}}, entry "Helkar"</ref>

==Other versions of the legendarium==
[[Christopher Tolkien]] noted that the story of the Lamps in its early stage was very different from the published ''[[Silmarillion]]''. It is Melko, not Aulë, who built the two pillars. The name ''Helkar'' disappeared as the name for the southern pillar; eventually the [[Sea of Helcar]] would be the body of water formed at the roots of [[Illuin]], the ''northern'' pillar and lamp. The only remaining influence from the older version of the story was that the fall of the pillars created inland seas, a vestige of the notion that the pillars had been made of ice that melted.<ref>{{LT1|IIIn}}, p. 87</ref>

{{references}}
[[Category:Towers]]
[[Category:Qenya locations]]

[[de:Helcar]]
[[fi:Helcar]]

Helkar

2025-05-29T16:05:17Z

Erendis: Tolkien talks about "pillar" ; I've not seen "tower" anywhere.

'''Helkar''' was one of the two pillarst held one of the [[Two Lamps]] created to light [[Middle-earth]] in an early conception of the [[legendarium]].

==History==
Helkar was a great pillar, raised by [[Melko]] to house the ''southern'' of the [[Two Lamps]] fashioned by [[Aulë]] to illuminate [[Middle-earth]]. The pillar was extremely tall, rising to the stars, and shone like pale blue crystal. Melko claimed that Helkar and its northern twin [[Ringil (tower)|Ringil]] were made of a strong, imperishable substance that he had devised; in reality he lied for they were made of ice (a material unknown to the other [[Valar]]). Thus, when Aulë's lamps were placed upon them (silver in the north and gold in the south) the ice melted and caused great floods to pour into the seas.<ref>{{LT1|III}}, pp. 69-70</ref>

==Etymology==
''Helka'' is [[Qenya]] for "ice-cold". The [[Gnomish]] cognate was '''''Helchor'''''.<ref>{{LT1|Appendix}}, entry "Helkar"</ref>

==Other versions of the legendarium==
[[Christopher Tolkien]] noted that the story of the Lamps in its early stage was very different from the published ''[[Silmarillion]]''. It is Melko, not Aulë, who built the two pillars. The name ''Helkar'' disappeared as the name for the southern pillar; eventually the [[Sea of Helcar]] would be the body of water formed at the roots of [[Illuin]], the ''northern'' pillar and lamp. The only remaining influence from the older version of the story was that the fall of the pillars created inland seas, a vestige of the notion that the pillars had been made of ice that melted.<ref>{{LT1|IIIn}}, p. 87</ref>

{{references}}
[[Category:Towers]]
[[Category:Qenya locations]]

[[de:Helcar]]
[[fi:Helcar]]

Ringil (tower)

2025-05-29T16:03:21Z

Erendis: Tolkien talks about "pillar" ; I've not seen "tower" anywhere.

{{disambig-more|Ringil|[[Ringil (disambiguation)]]}}
In an early conception of the [[legendarium]], '''Ringil''' was one of the two pillars that held one of the [[Two Lamps]] created to light [[Middle-earth]].

==History==
Ringil was a great pillar, raised by [[Morgoth|Melko]] to house the ''northern'' of the [[Two Lamps]] fashioned by [[Aulë]] to illuminate [[Middle-earth]]. The pillar was extremely tall, rising to the stars, and shone like pale blue crystal. Melkor claimed that Ringil and its southern twin [[Helkar]] were made of a strong, imperishable substance that he had devised; in reality he lied for they were made of ice (a material unknown to the other [[Valar]]). When Aulë's lamps were placed upon them (silver in the north and gold in the south) the ice melted and caused great floods to pour into the seas.<ref>{{LT1|III}}, pp. 69-70</ref>

{{references}}
{{title}}
[[Category:Towers]]
[[Category:Quenya locations]]

Araman

2025-05-10T13:46:02Z

Erendis: add source

{{short description|Northern coastland of Aman}}
{{disambig-two|the region of [[Aman]]|poem concerning the earlier conception of the region|''[[Eruman beneath the Stars]]''}}
{{location infobox
| name=Araman
| image=Lourdes Velez - The Curse of Mandos.jpg
| caption="The Curse of Mandos" by [[:Category:Images by Lourdes Velez|Lourdes Velez]]
| pronun=
| othernames=
| location=Northern [[Aman]], east of the [[Pelóri]] and adjacent to the [[Helcaraxë]]
| type=Region
| description=Cold mountainous wasteland
| regions=[[Oiomúrë]], [[Haerast]]
| towns=
| inhabitants=
| created=
| destroyed=
| events=[[Doom of Mandos]]
}}
'''Araman''' is the northern coastland of [[Aman]], north of [[Valinor]], that lay outside the mountain-fence of the [[Pelóri]]. It's a wasteland of long and dreary plains without hindrance to passage, but bleak, and ever colder as the Ice of [[Helcaraxë]] (which joined it with [[Beleriand]]) drew nearer. <ref>{{MR|P3II1}}, p. 295</ref>

The coastland that was visible from [[Nevrast]] in [[Beleriand]], was known as '''[[Haerast]]''' in [[Sindarin]].<ref>{{S|Index}}</ref>

==History==
This was the way [[Morgoth|Melkor]] (passing through [[Oiomúrë]]), and later the [[Noldor]] took into Exile. In Araman the host of the Noldor heard the [[Doom of Mandos]], delivered by a dark figure standing upon a high rock. Upon hearing the prophecy the host divided, with the followers of [[Fëanor]] pressing onward while those of [[Finarfin]] turned back. Later, when Fëanor and his kin burnt their ships at [[Losgar]], [[Fingolfin]] in Araman knew that he had been betrayed and that their only course was to march across the Helcaraxë.<ref>{{S|Flight}}</ref>

==Etymology==
''Araman'' is [[Quenya]] for "outside Aman", consisting of ''[[Ar#Quenya|ar]]'' + ''[[Aman#Etymology|Aman]]''.<ref>{{S|Appendix}}, entries ''ar-'' and ''mān-''</ref><ref>{{webcite|author=[[Helge Fauskanger]]|articleurl=http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/qlist.htm|articlename=Quenya Corpus Wordlist|dated=|website=Arda|accessed=16 February 2013}}</ref>

==Other versions of the legendarium==
In ''[[The Book of Lost Tales]]'' [[Qenya]] forms ''Eruman'' and ''Erumání'' from root ERE "outside" appear. [[Gnomish]] ''Edhofon''. Compare ''Harwalin'' or ''[[Arvalin]]'' "close to Valinor".<ref>{{LT1|Appendix}}, entry "Eruman"</ref>

{{references}}
[[Category:Aman]]
[[Category:Regions]]
[[Category:Quenya locations]]

[[de:Araman]]
[[fi:Araman]]
[[fr:encyclo/geographie/regions/aman/araman]]

Araman

2025-05-10T13:42:06Z

Erendis: correcting geographical description

{{short description|Northern coastland of Aman}}
{{disambig-two|the region of [[Aman]]|poem concerning the earlier conception of the region|''[[Eruman beneath the Stars]]''}}
{{location infobox
| name=Araman
| image=Lourdes Velez - The Curse of Mandos.jpg
| caption="The Curse of Mandos" by [[:Category:Images by Lourdes Velez|Lourdes Velez]]
| pronun=
| othernames=
| location=Northern [[Aman]], east of the [[Pelóri]] and adjacent to the [[Helcaraxë]]
| type=Region
| description=Cold mountainous wasteland
| regions=[[Oiomúrë]], [[Haerast]]
| towns=
| inhabitants=
| created=
| destroyed=
| events=[[Doom of Mandos]]
}}
'''Araman''' is the northern coastland of [[Aman]], north of [[Valinor]], that lay outside the mountain-fence of the [[Pelóri]]. It's a wasteland of long and dreary plains without hindrance to passage, but bleak, and ever colder as the Ice of [[Helcaraxë]] (which joined it with [[Beleriand]]) drew nearer.

The coastland that was visible from [[Nevrast]] in [[Beleriand]], was known as '''[[Haerast]]''' in [[Sindarin]].<ref>{{S|Index}}</ref>

==History==
This was the way [[Morgoth|Melkor]] (passing through [[Oiomúrë]]), and later the [[Noldor]] took into Exile. In Araman the host of the Noldor heard the [[Doom of Mandos]], delivered by a dark figure standing upon a high rock. Upon hearing the prophecy the host divided, with the followers of [[Fëanor]] pressing onward while those of [[Finarfin]] turned back. Later, when Fëanor and his kin burnt their ships at [[Losgar]], [[Fingolfin]] in Araman knew that he had been betrayed and that their only course was to march across the Helcaraxë.<ref>{{S|Flight}}</ref>

==Etymology==
''Araman'' is [[Quenya]] for "outside Aman", consisting of ''[[Ar#Quenya|ar]]'' + ''[[Aman#Etymology|Aman]]''.<ref>{{S|Appendix}}, entries ''ar-'' and ''mān-''</ref><ref>{{webcite|author=[[Helge Fauskanger]]|articleurl=http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/qlist.htm|articlename=Quenya Corpus Wordlist|dated=|website=Arda|accessed=16 February 2013}}</ref>

==Other versions of the legendarium==
In ''[[The Book of Lost Tales]]'' [[Qenya]] forms ''Eruman'' and ''Erumání'' from root ERE "outside" appear. [[Gnomish]] ''Edhofon''. Compare ''Harwalin'' or ''[[Arvalin]]'' "close to Valinor".<ref>{{LT1|Appendix}}, entry "Eruman"</ref>

{{references}}
[[Category:Aman]]
[[Category:Regions]]
[[Category:Quenya locations]]

[[de:Araman]]
[[fi:Araman]]
[[fr:encyclo/geographie/regions/aman/araman]]

Talk:Aman

2025-05-03T14:28:40Z

Erendis: /* what exactly the term "Aman" would refer to */ new section

Would it be nitpicking if we were to include [[Shadowfax]] and [[Gandalf]] among the few non-Elves to pass along the Straight Road?--[[User:Quidon88|Quidon88]] 03:14, 14 January 2007 (EST)

:This article needs cleanup and expanding, so I don't think it would be wrong to make a list of elves and non-elves that returned to Aman. Just as a side note, it is not sure that Shadowfax ever went to Aman. The horse is not mentioned in the final chapter ''[[The Grey Havens]]'', and Shadowfax was not a "ring-bearer". However, because he was a non-sentient being, it is possible that Gandalf took him on the ship. Speaking of which, is this mentioned in the [[Shadowfax]] article? I'll go look. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 13:01, 14 January 2007 (EST)

::I looked in The Tolkien Companion, and it said he sailed over the Sea with his master, but I can't find it in the Grey Havens. When I first saw your reply, I thought, "oh crap, was that some fanfic idea?", but I looked, and the Companion has never steered me wrong. Perhaps it says so in the Appendices?--[[User:Quidon88|Quidon88]] 15:35, 14 January 2007 (EST)

:::While it was never stated what happened to Shadowfax, JRRT does give his opinion on the matter in a letter to a fan:

{{quote|I think Shadowfax certainly went with Gandalf [across the Sea], though this is not stated...I should argue so: Shadowfax came of a special race (II 126, 129, III346) being as it were an Elvish equivalent of ordinary horses: his 'blood' came from 'West over Sea'. It would not be unfitting for him to 'go West'. Gandalf was not 'dying', or going by a special grace to the Western Land, before passing on 'beyond the circles of the world': he was going home, being plainly one of the 'immortals', an angelic emissary of the angelic governors (Valar) of the Earth. He would take or could take what he loved. Gandalf was last seen riding Shadowfax (III 276). He must have ridden to the Havens, and it is inconceivable that he would [have] ridden any beast but Shadowfax; so Shadowfax must have been there. A chronicler winding up a long tale, and for the moment moved principally by the sorrow of those left behind (himself among them!) might omit mention of the horse; but had the great horse also shared in the grief of sundering, he could hardly have been forgotten.|[[The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien]], #268}}

:::That's enough evidence for me. --[[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] 15:42, 14 January 2007 (EST)

::::All right, good. I was unaware of that quote, only having the ''Letters'' when I am able to borrow the collection from the library. I think we can note him as at least a ''probable'', then. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 15:54, 14 January 2007 (EST)

==Debate on Immortality==

Removed the following section:

<nowiki>
==Immortality==
There has been some debate whether the protagonists who sailed in the West became immortal or not. [[Robert Foster]] in his foreword to ''[[The Complete Guide to Middle-earth]]'' says that he did not provide death dates for those characters "for they still live". In reality, the Undying Lands were called like that because immortals dwelled in them, not because they granted immortality, something which becomes clear in the ''[[Akallabêth]]''.
</nowiki>

While I think we could have an OR in this case, the argument against Foster is weak: why does it become clear in the Akallabêth? It needs a rewrite. --[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 14:29, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

:Actually, I would say the argument against Foster is incredibly strong:
:{{blockquote|The Eldar reported these words to the Valar, and Manwë was grieved, seeing a cloud gather on the noontide of Númenor. And he sent messengers to the Dúnedain, who spoke earnestly to the King, and to all who would listen, concerning the fate and fashion of the world. ‘The Doom of the World,’ they said, ‘One alone can change who made it. And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceits and snares you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed Realm, little would it profit you. For it is not the land of Manwë that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast.’|{{S|Akallabeth}}}}
:Furthermore, if it were the case that those who go to the Undying Lands are instantly made immortal, doesn't that mean that Gimli and Bilbo would have to spend an eternity as old men? Doesn't seem that nice to me. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 13:54, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

::Now it's better, since you actually state the argument from the Akallabeth. That wasn't the case before. The second argument, based on logic/reasoning, is in my taste too much of original research to be added.--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 15:08, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

:::I think there is a place for arguments based on logic and plausibility. However, allowing it would probably open the proverbial can of worms. Also, I don't think that the section should have been simply removed as it was; the fact that Tolkien scholars hold different interpretations should be noted in the article, and the Akallabêth could have been quickly checked to verify the statement.--{{User:KingAragorn/sig}} 16:36, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

::::I agree with KA that we should note the different interpetations of Tolkien scholars. --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 17:02, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

:::::"''the fact that Tolkien scholars hold different interpretations should be noted in the article, and the Akallabêth could have been quickly checked to verify the statement''". Easy to say, harder to do. If I had been of the opinion that this section was beyond saving, I would just have deleted it. But since I thought that the basic premise was good, I moved it to the talk page. In most cases we just throw in those <nowiki>{{fact}}</nowiki>, and then nothing happens.--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 17:24, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

::::::When you want to know some philosophical point about Tolkien's legendarium it is always helpful to consult ''The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien'' (one of the reasons why I felt it was important to write all those summaries). Here are '''J.R.R. Tolkien's own statements on the matter''':
::::::# "...certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome...I have said nothing about it in this book [''The Lord of the Rings''], but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' - of free will, and leave the world." -- ''The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien'', Letter 154
::::::# "As for ''Frodo'' or other mortals, they could only dwell in ''Aman'' for a limited time - whether brief or long. The ''Valar'' had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (''die'' at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing." -- ''The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien'', Letter 325
::::::--[[User:Gamling|Gamling]] 18:05, 25 March 2012

::::::Where are these different interpretations by scholars? We have some pretty conclusive evidence here. I have a feeling this might be weasel words. Remove this "debate" rubbish, I think, and state firmly that these people do not become immortal (a point worth mentioning, I think). --{{User:Mith/sig}} 19:24, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

==Other names==
The article says: In The Hobbit Tolkien also calls this continent "Faerie in the West". – Could it be so that "Faerie in the West" = [[Eldamar]] and not the whole of Aman? --Tik 00:39, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

== what exactly the term "Aman" would refer to ==

With a reference to NOME part 3 chap 15, it is written : "He also changed his mind regarding what exactly the term "Aman" would refer to."

Which part of this text enable to write this ? And what would Aman refer to if not the western continent with Araman, Valinor... ?

Thanks for your answers :) [[User:Erendis|Erendis]] ([[User talk:Erendis|talk]]) 14:28, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Land of the Sun

2025-04-09T17:11:48Z

Erendis: /* "Land" or "Lands" ? */ new section

== The Land of the Sun ==

I’m very curious about this particular part of Tolkien’s world. Any thoughts on why it’s so obscure? And why didn’t the Valar settle East instead of West? [[User:Visitant|Visitant]] ([[User talk:Visitant|talk]]) 10:48, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

:Hello and welcome [[User:Visitant|Visitant]]! Much of Tolkien's legendarium is obscure by design, to quote the man himself;
:{{blockquote|Part of the attraction of The L.R. is, I think, due to the glimpses of a large history in the background : an attraction like that of viewing far off an unvisited island, or seeing the towers of a distant city gleaming in a sunlit mist. To go there is to destroy the magic, unless new unattainable vistas are again revealed.|[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], [[Letter 247]]}}
:Much of the history of [[Middle-earth]] happens in the far North-west, or at least that is where the [[Loremasters]] lived and recorded it.
:As for why the [[Valar]] didn't go East instead of West - no specific reason really, except that the island of [[Aman]] already existed in the far West and was perhaps the furthest most point from the strongholds of [[Melkor]].
:Finally, whilst these questions are interesting and I enjoyed answering it (hopefully to your satisfaction), Tolkien Gateway is not the place for questions about the Legendarium. You are welcome to join our [[Tolkien_Gateway:Chat|Discord]] server which has a channel for such things - or Reddit or a plethora of other websites that facilitate questions such as yours. [[User:JR Snow|JR Snow]] ([[User talk:JR Snow|talk]]) 11:08, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
::Thank you! I’ll be sure to join the Discord server. [[User:Visitant|Visitant]] ([[User talk:Visitant|talk]]) 11:11, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

== "Land" or "Lands" ? ==

In the Ambarkanta's text, "Land of the Sun" is written once. But on the map IV, it is clearly "Lands of the Sun".

Maybe put a "(s)" or write "Land ou Lands of the Sun" at the beginning of the article ? [[User:Erendis|Erendis]] ([[User talk:Erendis|talk]]) 17:11, 9 April 2025 (UTC)

Lothlórien

2025-02-23T12:02:21Z

Erendis: add the variation of Laurelindórinan (UT 2 chap 4 Note 5)

{{disambig-more|Lórien|[[Lórien (disambiguation)]]}}
{{disambig-more|Lothlórien|[[Lothlórien (disambiguation)]]}}
{{location infobox
| name=Lothlórien
| image=J.R.R. Tolkien - The Forest of Lothlorien in Spring.jpg
| caption="The Forest of Lothlorien in Spring" by [[J.R.R. Tolkien]]
| pronun={{respell|loth|loor|ee-en}}
| othernames=Lórien, [[Lórinand]], Lindórinand, [[Dwimordene]], Laurelindórenan, Laurelindórinan, Hidden Land, Golden Wood
| location=East of [[Misty Mountains]] on both sides of the [[Celebrant]]<ref>{{UT|Map}}</ref>
| type=Forest
| description=Golden wood with [[mallorn]] trees
| regions=[[Naith]], [[Egladil]]
| towns=[[Caras Galadhon]], [[Cerin Amroth]]
| inhabitants=[[Galadhrim]]; [[Sindar]]in/[[Noldor]]in/[[Teler]]in leadership
| created=
| destroyed=
| events=[[Quest of the Ring]] [[Assaults on Lothlórien]]
}}
{{quote|O Lórien! The Winter comes, the bare and leafless Day; The leaves are falling in the stream, the River flows away. O Lórien! Too long I have dwelt upon this [[Hither Shore]] And in a fading crown have twined the golden [[elanor]].|[[Galadriel's Song]]}}

'''Lothlórien''' was a kingdom of [[Silvan Elves]] on the eastern side of the [[Misty Mountains|Hithaeglir]]. It was considered one of the most beautiful and "elvish" places in [[Middle-earth]] during the [[Third Age]], and had the only [[mallorn]]-trees east of the [[Belegaer|sea]].

==History==
===First settlers===
The first inhabitants of the forested area later known as Lórien were a group of [[Nandor]] that refused to cross the [[Hithaeglir]].<ref>{{UT|6a}}</ref> These Nandor scattered across the forests of Wilderland on both sides of the [[Anduin]].<ref name=POME>{{PM|XNotes}}, Note 67, p. 329</ref> The folk of Lórien were neighbours and kin to that of [[Eryn Galen]] on the east bank of the Anduin.<ref name="Sindarin">{{UT|6b}}</ref> They named the forest that lay between the mountains and the Great River, above the [[Limlight]] and below the [[Gladden River|Gladden]],<ref name=geo>{{NM|P3xvii}}</ref> as ''Lindórinand'' in their [[Silvan Elvish|Silvan tongue]].<ref name=names>{{UT|Concerning}}, Note 5</ref>

===Sindarin dynasty===
Following the destruction of [[Beleriand]] and the [[War of Wrath]] at the end of the [[First Age]], most of the [[Noldor]]in exiles and remnants of the Sindar retreated to [[Lindon]] and many refused the invitation of The [[Valar]]. One of the unwilling was [[Amdír]].<ref name=Sindarin /> He, along with his son [[Amroth]], established himself in [[Lórinand]], where he would soon lead the princeless [[Silvan Elves]].<ref name="AaN">{{UT|Amroth}}</ref> The arrival of the Sinda [[Amdír]] affected the Nandor of Laurelindórenan. He took over as their King, while another Sinda, [[Oropher]], became King of [[Mirkwood|Greenwood the Great]]. Their language was replaced by [[Sindarin]].<ref name=Sindarin />

[[Celeborn]], a Sindarin elf, dwelt with his [[Noldor]]in wife [[Galadriel]] in [[Eregion]]. They made contact with the [[Galadhrim]] and before long they passed through [[Moria]] and arrived in the woods. Before the [[Sack of Eregion|Fall of Eregion]] and the death of [[Celebrimbor]], [[Nenya]], one of the [[Three Rings]] of the Elves, was delivered to Galadriel.<ref name=Concerning>{{UT|Concerning}}</ref> Other survivors of [[Eregion]], including many [[Noldor]] and [[Sindar]], escaped into [[Khazad-dûm]] and were granted passage by their friends the [[Dwarves]], coming eventually through the [[Misty Mountains]] to the woodland.<ref name="Galadriel">{{UT|Galadriel}}</ref>

As [[Sauron]]'s power grew over the [[Westlands]], King Amdír marshalled the Galadhrim to the [[War of the Last Alliance]] where many fell in the [[Dead Marshes]] along with their King.<ref name=Sindarin/>

The survivors, which included Amdír's son [[Amroth]], returned to Lórinand. Amroth was the new King, but he was tired of Middle-earth, and wished to go West and seek [[Valinor]]. When Moria fell to evil in {{TA|1981}}, many of the Galadhrim fled [[Edhellond|south]]. Amroth also departed with his beloved, [[Nimrodel (Elf-maid)|Nimrodel]], and they were never seen again.<ref name="AaN"/>

===Lord and Lady===
[[Image:Angus McBride - Galadriel.gif|thumb|left|''Galadriel'' by [[Angus McBride]]]]
After Amroth and Nimrodel had passed away, Celeborn and Galadriel took the title of [[Lord and Lady of Galadhrim]].<ref name=Concerning/> With Nenya, the land was kept pure and alive, and evil was not permitted to penetrate it. They moved back to the western side of Anduin and built [[Caras Galadhon]], the great centre of the woodland kingdom. There Galadriel planted the seeds of the [[mallorn]] trees that were given to her by Gil-galad when she lived in [[Lindon]], where they couldn't grow.<ref>{{UT|Numenor}}</ref> Because of the golden leaves of the mellyrn and the rule of the Lord and Lady, Lindórinand was given many new names, most famously ''Lothlórien''.<ref name=names /> Lothlórien was filled with light and life and became beautiful, and by the power of the Elven Ring the trees did not die.

Under the Lord and Lady, Lothlórien prospered for more than a thousand years as time passed without decay under the golden boughs. Celeborn and Galadriel produced a daughter, [[Celebrían]], who married [[Elrond]], and their granddaughter [[Arwen|Arwen Undómiel]] was considered the fairest of the elven race at that time.

In {{TA|3017}}, [[Aragorn]] passed by Lothlórien with the captured [[Gollum]] to deliver him to [[Mirkwood]]. [[Gandalf]] got word from Lothlórien on his way to the [[Shire]], and he changed his course to go and meet them.<ref>{{FR|Council}}</ref>

===War of the Ring===
[[File:Anna Kulisz - The Fellowship in Lothlorien.jpg|thumb|''The Fellowship in Lothlorien'' by [[:Category:Images by Anna Kulisz|Anna Kulisz]]]]
But as the [[Third Age]] came to an end, troubles at last began to touch the Valley of Singing Gold. As the shadow of [[Sauron]] lengthened and the [[War of the Ring]] raged, the border-wardens came across the remnant of the [[Fellowship of the Ring]], a group of travellers on a [[Quest of the Ring|quest]] of immeasurable importance. Among the company were [[Aragorn]], a prince of the [[Dúnedain]] and a friend of the Lady, as well as [[Legolas]] of [[Mirkwood]]. The only reservation the border-wardens had about them was the dwarf, [[Gimli]].<ref name=loth>{{FR|II6}}</ref> The Fellowship were led blindfolded for a time, but at Galadriel's word their blindfolds were released and they were taken to Caras Galadhon on [[17 January]] {{TA|3019}}.<ref name=Great>{{App|Great}}</ref> The very night the Fellowship arrived, a band of [[Orcs]] crossed the [[Nimrodel (river)|Nimrodel]]. A regiment or so of the [[Galadhrim]] were sent out, and destroyed the Orcs.<ref name=loth/>

There the Elves learned of the death of [[Gandalf]], and Galadriel knew what [[The One Ring|evil]] had been brought into the Golden Wood. She revealed her own ring to Frodo, and showed him her [[Mirror of Galadriel|mirror]].<ref>{{FR|II7}}</ref> Then the Fellowship was furnished with new supplies and sent off down Anduin, bearing the [[Gifts of Galadriel|gifts]] of the Lord and Lady.<ref>{{FR|II8}}</ref>

Right when the Company left, [[Gwaihir]] brought [[Gandalf]] to the Golden Wood, who was recovering from his battle with [[Durin's Bane]]. He was healed, clothed and given a new staff before leaving for [[Fangorn]].<ref>{{TT|White}}</ref>

But the coming of the [[One Ring]] was only the beginning of their troubles that were the heralds of greater conflicts that were to occur. [[Sauron]] unleashed [[assaults on Lothlórien|massive attacks]] on the Golden Wood.

On [[11 March]], forces from [[Dol Guldur]] swarmed into the forest in a full-scale assault. By the power of the Wood-elves and Galadriel’s ring, they were repulsed. The second wave came on [[15 March]], at the same time as the [[Battle under the trees|invasion of Mirkwood]]. Again, the enemies were forced out. The third and last attack was made seven days later, on [[22 March]]. They caused much destruction on the wood's borders, but the valiant Galadhrim routed them utterly. And after the [[Shadow]] of Sauron was lifted, they stormed [[Dol Guldur]] and cleansed [[Mirkwood]]; [[Thranduil]] gave its southern part into the dominion of Lothlórien, and it was called [[East Lórien]].<ref name=Great/>

On their way to [[Gondor]], [[Elrond]] and [[Arwen]] came to Lothlórien on [[20 May]].<ref>{{App|Chief}}</ref>

===Afterward===
[[File:War in Middle Earth - Lothlórien.png|thumb|right|Lothlórien in ''[[J.R.R. Tolkien's War in Middle Earth]]'']]
Only two-and-a-half years after the War of the Ring, Galadriel, the Lady of Lórien, took ship West to Valinor.

The eastern border of Lothlórien in the southern [[Eryn Lasgalen]] became [[East Lórien]]. It was founded after the cleansing of [[Dol Guldur]] during the [[War of the Ring]], and [[Celeborn]] ruled the [[Galadhrim]] of Lothlórien. In the [[Fourth Age]], he grew weary and left for [[Rivendell]], leaving the wooded land of East Lórien populated by only a few wandering [[Silvan Elves]].<ref name="Great"/>

In {{FoA|121}}, a grief-filled [[Arwen Undómiel]] travelled to Lothlórien, now fully abandoned, after [[Aragorn]] surrendered his life, surrendering her own life upon [[Cerin Amroth]]. "[T]here is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten..."<ref>{{App|Tale}}</ref>

==Geography==
Lothlórien stood between the south-eastern end of the Misty Mountains and the great river Anduin. The river Celebrant ran through the wood from its source in the mountains to the west through to the Anduin to the east.

In its earlier days, the woods of Lothlórien extended south into Fangorn Forest. In these days there was no true border between the two territories, though after conversation between [[Treebeard]] and the King of the Golden Wood it was agreed that the inhabitants of either land could walk freely at their leisure across whatever borders there may be.<ref name="Galadriel"/> It is also possible that the woods of Lórien extended into the southern regions of Greenwood the Great, though there is only a small amount of evidence supporting this possibility.<ref name="Galadriel"/> By the Third Age, Lórien was separate from Fangorn in the south and Mirkwood in the east by many miles.

==Locations==
*[[Caras Galadhon]]
*[[Cerin Amroth]]

==Etymology==
''Lothlórien'', said to mean "Lórien of the Blossom", is a compound of [[Sindarin]] ''[[loth]]'' + [[Quenya]] ''[[Lórien (Valinor)|Lórien]]'' ("?Dream Land"). Treebeard translates the name as "Dreamflower".<ref name=HMRC>{{HM|UI}}, p. 300</ref>

==Other names==
Lothlórien was often shortened to '''Lórien''', or the '''Golden Wood''' (referring to the golden [[mallorn]] trees that grew in that land).<ref name=HMRC/><ref name=PE17>{{PE|17}}, p. 48</ref> Other names recorded for the region were:

* ''Lindórinand'', ?[[Nandorin|N.]] "Vale of the Land of the Singers"<ref name=names />
* ''[[Lórinand]]'', ?N. "Valley of gold"<ref name=names />
* ''Laurenandë'', [[Quenya|Q.]] "Valley of gold"<ref name=names />
* ''Glornan'', [[Sindarin|S.]] "Valley of gold"<ref name=names />
* ''Nan Laur'', S. "Valley of gold"<ref name=names />
* ''Laurelindórenan'', ''Laurelindórinan''<ref name=names>{{UT|Concerning}}, Note 5</ref> Q. "Valley of Singing Gold"
* ''Dwimordene'', [[Old English]] "Haunted valley"<ref>{{HM|Guide}}, entry "Dwimordene"</ref>

==Other versions of the legendarium==
In the drafts of ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' Tolkien was unsure whether time of the outside world "froze" while the Fellowship stayed in Lórien, changing his mind twice; according to the first scheme the Fellowship had left Lórien and passed [[Sarn Gebir]] already on [[21 January]]. Eventually he decided that time passes normally, and had to adjust the dates and the routes of the characters, later changing their departure to [[14 February]] and eventually [[16 February]] (taking into account the full moon of [[7 March]]).<ref>{{HM|RC}}, p. xlvi, xlvii</ref> In the published book, the characters instead have lost their subjective sense of time after leaving Lórien.

==Portrayal in adaptations==
'''1988: ''[[J.R.R. Tolkien's War in Middle Earth]]'':'''
:Lórien is one of the several battlegrounds in this game. The trees are just normal trees.

'''2001: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring]]'':'''
:Lórien was portrayed as a golden wood filled with sunshine during the day and Caras Galadhon as a city of moonshine and stary blue lanterns at night.

'''2002: [[The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring (video game)|''The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring'' (video game)]]:'''
:After defeating the Balrog, the Fellowship enters Lothlórien. There are no missions; stepping towards a ladder triggers the [[Mirror of Galadriel]]-scene and continues the game.

'''2004: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth]]'':'''
:In the Good Campaign, Lothlórien (along with the Fellowship) is attacked by several waves of [[orcs]] and [[trolls]]. The area is full of treasures, which form the only income needed to make elven archers.

[[File:The Lord of the Rings Online - Lothlorien map.jpg|thumb|Map of Lothlórien from ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]''.]]
'''2004: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: War of the Ring]]'':'''
:Similar to ''The Battle for Middle-earth'', a skirmish takes place after Fellowship's arrival in Lothlórien. Player's goal during the mission is to protect two mallorn trees from attacks for a certain period of time.

'''2006: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth II]]'':'''
:Lothlórien makes appearance as a Battleground in both "Evil" campaign and skirmish model. The layout of the map drastically differs from the ones in the game-predecessor.

'''2007: ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]'':'''
:Lothlórien is one of major regions of the game, added following the ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online: Mines of Moria]]'' expansion. It is inhabited by over a hundred of non-playable characters, who are involved in hundreds of various quests. The map shows the major landmarks of the area: The [[Mirrormere]], rivers [[Anduin]], [[Nimrodel]] and [[Celebrant]], [[Cerin Amroth]] and [[Caras Galadhon]].

'''2011: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: War in the North]]'':'''
:Lothlórien is not part of the regular story mode, but becomes available as a challenge mission once the player clears Chapter 1 (Fornost). The player may earn experience by defeating waves after waves of enemies that invade the Golden Wood.

'''2012: ''[[Lego The Lord of the Rings]]'':'''
:Lothlórien appears both as a playable are on the map and as part of the Bonus Level that depicts all of Middle-Earth in small scale. Modelled on the film trilogy, it includes several quests as well as the characters Galadriel, Celeborn, Haldir and Lothlórien Elf.

{{references}}
{{FellowshipRoute}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:Lothlorien}}
[[Category:Forests]]
[[Category:Lothlórien| ]]
[[Category:Rhovanion]]
[[Category:Sindarin locations]]
[[de:Lothlórien]]
[[fi:Lothlórien]]
[[fr:encyclo/geographie/forets/rhovanion/lothlorien]]

Thingol

2025-02-18T10:39:00Z

Erendis: /* Characteristics */

{{infobox character
| people=[[Sindar|Sinda]]
| name=Thingol
| image=Kimberly - Nauglamir Thingol.jpg
| caption="Nauglamir Thingol" by [[:Category:Images by Kimberly|Kimberly]]
| pronun=[[Sindarin|S]], {{IPA|[ˈelu]}} {{IPA|[ˈθiŋɡol]}}
| othernames=''[[Elu]]'' ([[Sindarin|S]]) ''[[Elwë]]'' ([[Quenya|Q]]) ''[[Singollo]]'' ([[Quenya|Q]], [[Epessë|an]])
| titles=Greycloak King Greymantle The Hidden King [[King of Doriath]] Lord of Beleriand
| position=
| location=[[Cuiviénen]] [[Doriath]]
| affiliation=
| language=[[Common Eldarin]] [[Doriathrin]] ([[Sindarin]] dialect)
| birth=Between {{YT|1050}} & {{YT|1102|n}}
| birthlocation=[[Cuiviénen]]
| rule={{YT|1152}} - {{FA|503}}
| death={{FA|503}}<ref group="note">Thingol's death is indeed placed under {{YS|503}} in the final version of the [[The Tale of Years (The War of the Jewels)|The Tale of Years]] from ''[[The War of the Jewels]]'', but there he was killed in the battle with the Dwarves. However, according to the narrative introduced after much hesitation into the published ''[[The Silmarillion|Silmarillion]]'' by [[Christopher Tolkien]], it occurred immediately after the reforging of the [[Nauglamír]].</ref>
| deathlocation=[[Menegroth]]
| age=at least 4,316<ref group="note">[[Years of the Sun]]. Each [[Years of the Trees|Year of the Trees]] is equal to 9.582 Years of the Sun, and the Years of the Trees ended in the [[Year of the Trees 1500|year 1500]].</ref>
| notablefor=
| house=
| parentage=Unknown (descendant of [[Enel]] & [[Enelyë]])<ref>{{NM|P1xvii}}, p. 127</ref>
| siblings=[[Olwë]] [[Elmo]]<ref>{{UT|Galadriel}}</ref>
| spouse=[[Melian]]
| children=[[Lúthien]] Fostered [[Túrin]]
| gender=Male
| height=The tallest of all the [[Children of Ilúvatar]]<ref name=Princes>{{S|Princes}}</ref><ref>{{AA|74}}, p. 86</ref><ref name=Hair>{{GA|16}}, p. 9</ref>
| hair=Grey silver<ref name=Princes/><ref name=Hair/> (long)<ref>{{WJ|Quendi}}, pp. 384</ref>
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=[[Aranrúth]]
| steed=
}}
{{Quote|In Beleriand King Thingol upon his throne was as the lords of the [[Maiar]], whose power is at rest, whose joy is as an air that they breathe in all their days, whose thought flows in a tide untroubled from the heights to the deeps.|''[[Quenta Silmarillion]]'', "[[Of the Sindar]]"}}

'''Thingol''', also known as '''Elu''', was one of the two kings of the [[Teleri]], the other being his younger<ref name="PM">{{PM|Last}}, "Círdan", p. 385</ref> brother [[Olwë]]. He was also the [[King of Doriath]] and the greatest lord of the [[Sindar]]. Known as '''Elwë''' during the first years of the [[Eldar]], he was the older brother of Olwë and [[Elmo]]. He was also a good friend of [[Finwë]], [[King of the Noldor]]. His hair was silver and he was the tallest of all Elves and Men.<ref name="Princes" /> As the acknowledged high-king of the Sindar in [[Beleriand]],<ref>{{WJ|Author}}, note 11</ref> Thingol would become a central figure of the [[First Age]], instigating the [[Quest for the Silmaril]], the greatest victory of the Age, but ultimately the cause of his own doom.

==History==
===Ambassador of the Valar===
Thingol was born at [[Cuiviénen]] in the days before the [[Sun]] and the [[Moon]], when [[Middle-earth]] was lit only by starlight.

After the [[Chaining of Melkor]], the [[Valar|Vala]] [[Oromë]] took three Elves, [[Ingwë]], Finwë, and Elwë, to [[Valinor]] to convince the [[Elves]] to join the Valar in the [[Blessed Realm]]. Upon their return, the Elven ambassadors convinced many to join them on the [[Great Journey]] to the West. During the thousand mile journey, the Elven host separated into three groups, the [[Vanyar]], the [[Noldor]], and the Teleri.<ref name="capt">{{S|Captivity}}</ref>

The Teleri were the largest folk and they were divided in two hosts, led by Elwë and his brother Olwë. Elwë was more eager than his brother to see again Valinor, and wished to catch up with the Noldor because of his friendship with Finwë; but the Teleri were also the slowest and were the last to reach the western shores of Middle-earth.<ref name="capt" />
[[File:Elena Kukanova - Nan Elmoth - Elwe and Melian.jpg|thumb|left|''Nan Elmoth - Elwe and Melian'' by [[Elena Kukanova]]]]
After many years the Teleri crossed the [[Blue Mountains]] and stayed for some time in [[East Beleriand]].<ref name="capt" /> During this time Elwë returned from a meeting with his friend Finwë, and wandered into the [[Nan Elmoth|Forest of Nan Elmoth]], where he met and fell in love with [[Melian]] the [[Maiar|Maia]]. Caught in an enchantment of their own making, Elwë and Melian could not be found by the searching Teleri. When the Valar returned to take the remaining Elves to Valinor, only some of them followed Olwë across the [[Belegaer|Great Sea]]. The rest had come to love the lands of [[Beleriand]] and refused to leave without their missing lord.<ref>{{S|Thingol}}</ref>

===King of Doriath===
[[File:J.R.R. Tolkien - Elwë heraldic device.jpg|100px|thumb|right|Elwë's device with the Winged Moon by [[J.R.R. Tolkien]]]]
In {{YT|1152}}, Elwë awoke from his trance and reappeared with his bride Melian.<ref>{{AA|74}}</ref> He was much changed since his people last they saw him: while he had been fair and noble before, he now stood like a Maia above them as the tallest of the Children of Ilúvatar. He gathered his people together and founded the Kingdom of [[Doriath]]. His subjects would become the Sindar, or the "Grey Elves", and their language was [[Sindarin]]. From then on Elwë was known as King Elu Thingol, and he claimed lordship over all the lands in [[Beleriand]]. While Thingol was king of the Grey Elves, he saw the light of the [[Two Trees]] as an ambassador of the Valar and thus he was counted as a [[High Elves|High Elf]], and equal to any lord of the Eldar.<ref name="Princes" /><ref name="Thingol">{{S|Sindar}}</ref> He was even acknowledged as high-king of all the Teleri in Beleriand, even after Doriath became hidden.<ref name="PM" />

On Melian's advice, Thingol became an ally of the [[Dwarves]] of [[Belegost]], who carved the caverns of [[Menegroth]] for him. In payment he gave them, along with many other things, the great pearl [[Nimphelos]].<ref name="Thingol" />

A thousand years before the first rising of the Sun and the Moon the [[Green-elves]] entered Beleriand under [[Denethor of the Nandor|Denethor]]. Thingol welcomed them and gave them the lands of [[Ossiriand]], which they named [[Lindon]]. The Green Elves told of the spread of the [[Orcs]] and other foul creatures in the north and east of Middle-earth. The Grey Elves began arming themselves.<ref name="Thingol" />

Centuries later [[Melkor]] returned to Middle-earth. Now named Morgoth, he had destroyed the Two Trees, killed Finwë, the King of the Noldor, and stolen the fabled [[Silmarils]]. Seeking to claim dominion quickly, he launched a sudden assault on the lands of the Sindar. The [[First Battle of Beleriand]] went well for Thingol, who prevented any Orcs from invading Doriath, but the Green Elves took horrific losses and the [[Falathrim]] were besieged.<ref name="Thingol" />

The Falathrim were finally saved by the unexpected arrival of the Noldor, who launched the [[Dagor-nuin-Giliath]] ("Battle Under the Stars") in which Morgoth's forces were all but annihilated.<ref name="Return">{{S|Return}}</ref>

===Thingol and the Noldor===
[[File:Elena Kukanova - King of Doriath.jpg|thumb|left|''King of Doriath'' by [[Elena Kukanova]]]]
After the First Battle of Beleriand, Doriath was encircled by the [[Girdle of Melian]], an impenetrable fence of enchantment that guarded the kingdom.<ref name="Thingol" /> While his own kingdom was protected, Thingol was still loath to surrender any other lands in Beleriand to the Noldor as he was suspicious of the aggressive new lords in Middle-earth.<ref name="Return" />
{{blockquote|In [[Hithlum]] the Noldor have leave to dwell, and in the highlands of [[Dorthonion]], and in the lands east of Doriath that are empty and wild... for I am the Lord of Beleriand, and all who seek to dwell there shall hear my word.|''[[Quenta Silmarillion]]'', "[[Of the Return of the Noldor]]"}}

King Thingol's relations with the Noldor were strained, and grew worse decades later when he learned the truth of the [[Kinslaying at Alqualondë]]. Thingol banned the use of [[Quenya]] in his lands, which led to Sindarin being the common Elven tongue in Middle-earth. The King of Doriath refused to aid the Noldor in the war against Morgoth, and took little part in the ongoing struggle.<ref>{{S|Noldor}}</ref>

===Quest for the Silmaril===
[[File:Felix Sotomayor - Beren at Thingol's Court.jpg|thumb|''Beren at Thingol's Court'' by [[Felix Sotomayor]]]]
{{Quote|If thou fearest neither spell, wall nor weapons, as thou saist, then go fetch me a Silmaril from the crown of Morgoth. Then we will give jewel for jewel, but thou shalt win the fairer: Lúthien of the First-born and of the Gods.|Thingol, ''[[War of the Jewels]]'', "The Gray Annals"}}
Thingol and Melian had one child, a daughter named [[Lúthien]], said to be the fairest woman ever to live. Lúthien fell in love with a [[Men|Man]] named [[Beren]]. Thingol did not wish for the two to wed, as he valued his daughter very highly and disliked Men. As a bride-price he asked for a Silmaril from the crown of [[Morgoth]], thinking there was no way that Beren could fulfill this demand.<ref name="Beren">{{S|Beren}}</ref>

However, when Beren and Lúthien came back from [[Angband]], and when Beren showed him his missing hand which still held the Silmaril in the belly of [[Carcharoth]], he softened his heart towards him. Soon, though, Carcharoth in his anguish and rage from the Silmaril that burned his insides, broke through the Girdle of Melian and entered Doriath. In that hour, Thingol, along with Beren, [[Mablung]], [[Beleg]], and [[Huan]] the Hound of Valinor, began the [[Hunting of the Wolf]]. Carcharoth was finally slain by Huan, but both Huan and Beren died in the process. After that, Lúthien died also, and coming to the [[Halls of Mandos]] she begged [[Mandos]] that Beren be returned to life. However, it was beyond the power of Mandos to withhold the souls of Men from going beyond the [[Circles of the World]].<ref name="Beren" />

Therefore, [[Ilúvatar]], through [[Manwë]], offered Lúthien and Beren the opportunity to live again, but with Lúthien sharing the [[Gift of Men]]. She agreed, and they both came back to life and lived out the remainder of their second lives at [[Tol Galen]], far from the sight of any other mortals.<ref name="Beren" />

===Fostering of Túrin===
Thingol adopted as a son a young Man named [[Túrin]], son of [[Húrin]] and akin to Beren himself, who was sent to Doriath when he was seven years old.<ref>{{CH|4}}</ref> When he grew up, he was permitted to join Beleg Cúthalion on the marches of Doriath, fighting the Orcs of Morgoth.<ref name="Turin">{{S|Turin}}</ref><ref>{{CH|5}}</ref>

Túrin accidentally caused the death of [[Saeros]], one of Thingol's counselors who had provoked and attacked him. Before he could be either punished or forgiven he fled. Thingol however gave Beleg a leave to seek out his friend, who in the meantime had joined a [[Gaurwaith|band of outlaws]].<ref>{{CH|6}}</ref> Telling to Thingol that Túrin did not wish to return, Thingol allowed Beleg to go and join his friend and gave him the black sword [[Anglachel]] that [[Eöl]] had forged and given to Thingol<ref>{{S|Maeglin}}</ref> in tribute.<ref name="Turin" />

===Nauglamír and death===
[[File:Peter Xavier Price - Thingol's End.jpg|thumb|right|''Thingol's End'' by [[Peter Xavier Price]]]]
Sometime after Túrin's tragic death, Húrin, now an old man released from Morgoth's captivity, was allowed to enter Menegroth. In anger, he threw the [[Nauglamír]], the treasure of [[Nargothrond]], before King Thingol, bitterly "thanking" him for aiding his son. Melian pierced through Húrin's madness and grief; shamed by his actions, he offered the Nauglamír to Thingol sincerely and left Menegroth a broken man.<ref name="Doriath">{{S|Doriath}}</ref>

At that time, a desire came into Thingol's heart to take the Nauglamír and place the Silmaril into it, thus melding together two of the greatest creations made by the Elves and the Dwarves. He hired skilled [[Dwarves of Nogrod|Dwarven craftsmen]], but they secretly desired to possess both treasures for themselves. After their work was completed, the Dwarves refused to give the Nauglamír to Thingol, claiming that he had no right to own the priceless necklace made by their ancestors. Realizing that they were coveting the Silmaril, Thingol became infuriated and insulted them. The Dwarves were angered by his harsh words and killed him. This led to the [[battle in the Thousand Caves|sacking of Menegroth]] and the eventual [[Second Kinslaying|destruction of Doriath]], which scattered its people.<ref name="Doriath" />

==Characteristics==
His hair was grey as silver, his eyes were as stars, and he was the tallest of all the Elven-folk.<ref>{{MR|P3I3}}</ref>{{rp|§27}} which means that he was taller than Elendil, probably the tallest man, who was 7'11" or 2.41 m tall.<ref name="linear">{{UT|Linear}}, note concerning the different routes from Osgiliath to Imladris, first paragraph</ref>

==Etymology==
{{Pronounce|Elwe Singollo.mp3|Ardamir}}
'''Thingol''' was his [[epessë|anessë]] (given name) in [[Sindarin]], which means "Greycloak"<ref>{{MR|P3II3a}}, p. 217</ref> or Greymantle.<ref name="Thingol">{{S|Sindar}}</ref> The first element of the name is ''thin(d)'' ("grey").<ref>{{S|Elements}}, entry ''thin(d)''</ref><ref>{{PE|17}}, entry Q '''sinda''', p. 72</ref> Paul Strack suggests that the second element ''gol'' is the [[lenition|lenited]] form of ''coll'' ("cloak", "mantle").<ref>{{webcite|author=Paul Strack|articleurl=https://www.eldamo.org/content/words/word-3589954001.html|articlename=S. ''Thingol'' m.|website=Eldamo|accessed=10 May 2024}}</ref>

==Other names==
[[Quenya]] tradition names him '''''Elwë''''' and ''[[Singollo]]'', for the [[Noldor]] pronounced his epessë as '''''Singollo'''''.{{fact}}

His first name, ''Elwë'', means "star-man" and contains ''[[el]]'' and ''[[-we]]''.

'''''Elwë Þindicollo''''' or '''Sindicollo''' was the ancient name of King Thingol; when he settled in [[Doriath]] with [[Melian]], he took the [[Sindarin]] form of his name, ''Elu Thingol''.

==Genealogy==
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | ENL |y| ENE | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |ENL=[[Enel]] ''awoke in {{YT|1050}}''|ENE=[[Enelyë]] ''awoke in {{YT|1050}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | |D|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|7| |}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | |:| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |:| |}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | |:| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |:| |}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | |,|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|.| | | |:| |}}
{{familytree | | | MEL |y| THI | | OLW | | | | | | | | | | ELM | | CIR |MEL=[[Melian]]|THI='''THINGOL''' ''d. {{FA|503}}''|OLW=[[Olwë]] ''b. {{YT}}''|ELM=[[Elmo]] ''b. {{YT}}''|CIR=[[Círdan]] ''b. {{YT}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | |!| | | |,|-|^|-|.| | | | | | | | | |!| | | | | |}}
{{familytree | BER |y| LUT | | SON | | EAW |y| FIN | | | | GLD | | | | |SON=''unnamed sons''|LUT=[[Lúthien]] ''{{YT|1200}} - {{FA|503}}''|EAW=[[Eärwen]] ''b. {{YT}}''|GLD=[[Galadhon]] ''b. {{YT}}''|FIN=[[Finarfin]] ''b. {{YT|1230}}''|BER=[[Beren]] ''{{FA|432}} - {{FA|503|n}}''}}
{{familytree | | | |!| |,|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|v|-|^|-|.| | | |,|-|^|-|.| | | |}}
{{familytree | | | |!| FND | | ANG | | AEG | | GAL |~| CEL | | GLT |GAL=[[Galadriel]] ''b. {{YT|1362}}''|CEL=[[Celeborn]] ''b. {{YT}}''|GLT=[[Galathil]] ''b. {{YT}}''|FND=[[Finrod]] ''{{YT|1300}} - {{FA|465}}''|ANG=[[Angrod]] ''d. {{FA|455}}''|AEG=[[Aegnor]] ''d. {{FA|455}}''}}
{{familytree | | | |!| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |!| | | |}}
{{familytree | | | DIO |~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|y|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~| NIM |DIO=[[Dior]] ''{{FA|470}} - {{FA|506|n}}''|NIM=[[Nimloth of Doriath|Nimloth]] ''d. {{FA|506}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | |,|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|.| | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | ELD | | ELN | | ELW | | | | | | | | | |ELD=[[Eluréd]] ''{{FA|500}} - c. {{FA|507|n}}''|ELN=[[Elurín]] ''{{FA|500}} - c. {{FA|507|n}}''|ELW=[[Elwing]] ''b. {{FA|503}}''}}
{{familytree/end}}

==Other versions of the legendarium==
{{expansion}}
In ''[[The Book of Lost Tales Part One]]'' his [[Qenya]] name is ''Linwë Tinto'' or ''Tinwë Linto'' and his [[Gnomish]] name is ''Tinwelint''.<ref>{{LT1|Appendix}}, entry "Tinwë Linto, Tinwelint"</ref> He was led away from [[Solosimpi]], his people, by the beautiful music of [[Melian|Wendelin]], and never returned to them. [[Ellu]] took his place as their leader.<ref>{{LT1|V}}</ref> In a crossed out note, only Tinwelint's children, [[Tinfang Warble|Timpinen]] and [[Lúthien|Tinúviel]], returned later to the Eldar.<ref>{{LT1|IVn}}, note 1</ref>

In ''[[The Book of Lost Tales Part Two]]'', Tinwelint found Gwendeling by following the song of her nightingales. He stopped to listen for what he thought was a moment, although in reality it lasted many years. He came upon her in the forest, where she lay listening also to the nightingales. Thinking her very beautiful, he began to approach her, but she rose and ran away laughing. He then fell into a deep sleep while she remained, and kept watch over him a long time. His people, who had long ago departed to Valinor, were forgotten by Tinwelint when he at last awoke and found her still nearby. Eventually the two were wed.<ref name="lt2i" />

Tinwë Linto/Tinwelint reigned with Wendelin/Gwendeling ([[Vëannë]] and [[Ausir (boy)|Ausir]], children talking to [[Eriol]], argued about their names) over the Lost Elves of [[Doriath|Artanor]]. Tolkien considered also the name ''[[Ellu]]'' for him.<ref name="lt2i">{{LT2|I}}</ref> His children were Tinúviel and [[Daeron|Dairon]].<ref name="lt2i" />

{{references|notes}}

{{seq-start}}
{{seq-head
| race=sindar
| house=Founded the [[House of Elwë]]
| born=Between {{YT|1050}} and {{YT|1102|n}}
| died={{FA|502}}
}}
{{seq
| prev=''[[Enel]], as Chieftain of the [[Nelyar]]''
| pvac=None
| list=King of the [[Teleri]]
| dates={{YT|1105}} - {{YT|1132|n}} (with [[Olwë]])
| next=[[Olwë]]
}}
{{seq
| prev=Title established
| pvac=None
| list=1st [[King of Doriath|King]] of [[Doriath]]
| dates={{YT|1152}} – {{FA|503}}
| next=[[Dior]]
}}
{{seq-end}}

[[Category:Calaquendi]]
[[Category:Characters in The Book of Lost Tales]]
[[Category:Characters in The Children of Húrin]]
[[Category:Characters in The Silmarillion]]
[[Category:First Age characters]]
[[Category:House of Elwë]]
[[Category:Ilkorindi]]
[[Category:Ilkorin names]]
[[Category:Nelyar]]
[[Category:Rulers in Beleriand]]
[[Category:Rulers in the Great Lands]]
[[Category:Sindar]]
[[Category:Sindarin names]]
[[de:Elwe]]
[[fi:Thingol]]
[[fr:encyclo/personnages/elfes/teleri/sindar/elu thingol]]

Thingol

2025-02-18T10:38:31Z

Erendis: /* Characteristics */ add than Thingol is taller than Elendil's height

{{infobox character
| people=[[Sindar|Sinda]]
| name=Thingol
| image=Kimberly - Nauglamir Thingol.jpg
| caption="Nauglamir Thingol" by [[:Category:Images by Kimberly|Kimberly]]
| pronun=[[Sindarin|S]], {{IPA|[ˈelu]}} {{IPA|[ˈθiŋɡol]}}
| othernames=''[[Elu]]'' ([[Sindarin|S]]) ''[[Elwë]]'' ([[Quenya|Q]]) ''[[Singollo]]'' ([[Quenya|Q]], [[Epessë|an]])
| titles=Greycloak King Greymantle The Hidden King [[King of Doriath]] Lord of Beleriand
| position=
| location=[[Cuiviénen]] [[Doriath]]
| affiliation=
| language=[[Common Eldarin]] [[Doriathrin]] ([[Sindarin]] dialect)
| birth=Between {{YT|1050}} & {{YT|1102|n}}
| birthlocation=[[Cuiviénen]]
| rule={{YT|1152}} - {{FA|503}}
| death={{FA|503}}<ref group="note">Thingol's death is indeed placed under {{YS|503}} in the final version of the [[The Tale of Years (The War of the Jewels)|The Tale of Years]] from ''[[The War of the Jewels]]'', but there he was killed in the battle with the Dwarves. However, according to the narrative introduced after much hesitation into the published ''[[The Silmarillion|Silmarillion]]'' by [[Christopher Tolkien]], it occurred immediately after the reforging of the [[Nauglamír]].</ref>
| deathlocation=[[Menegroth]]
| age=at least 4,316<ref group="note">[[Years of the Sun]]. Each [[Years of the Trees|Year of the Trees]] is equal to 9.582 Years of the Sun, and the Years of the Trees ended in the [[Year of the Trees 1500|year 1500]].</ref>
| notablefor=
| house=
| parentage=Unknown (descendant of [[Enel]] & [[Enelyë]])<ref>{{NM|P1xvii}}, p. 127</ref>
| siblings=[[Olwë]] [[Elmo]]<ref>{{UT|Galadriel}}</ref>
| spouse=[[Melian]]
| children=[[Lúthien]] Fostered [[Túrin]]
| gender=Male
| height=The tallest of all the [[Children of Ilúvatar]]<ref name=Princes>{{S|Princes}}</ref><ref>{{AA|74}}, p. 86</ref><ref name=Hair>{{GA|16}}, p. 9</ref>
| hair=Grey silver<ref name=Princes/><ref name=Hair/> (long)<ref>{{WJ|Quendi}}, pp. 384</ref>
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=[[Aranrúth]]
| steed=
}}
{{Quote|In Beleriand King Thingol upon his throne was as the lords of the [[Maiar]], whose power is at rest, whose joy is as an air that they breathe in all their days, whose thought flows in a tide untroubled from the heights to the deeps.|''[[Quenta Silmarillion]]'', "[[Of the Sindar]]"}}

'''Thingol''', also known as '''Elu''', was one of the two kings of the [[Teleri]], the other being his younger<ref name=PM>{{PM|Last}}, "Círdan", p. 385</ref> brother [[Olwë]]. He was also the [[King of Doriath]] and the greatest lord of the [[Sindar]]. Known as '''Elwë''' during the first years of the [[Eldar]], he was the older brother of Olwë and [[Elmo]]. He was also a good friend of [[Finwë]], [[King of the Noldor]]. His hair was silver and he was the tallest of all Elves and Men.<ref name=Princes/> As the acknowledged high-king of the Sindar in [[Beleriand]],<ref>{{WJ|Author}}, note 11</ref> Thingol would become a central figure of the [[First Age]], instigating the [[Quest for the Silmaril]], the greatest victory of the Age, but ultimately the cause of his own doom.

== History ==
=== Ambassador of the Valar ===
Thingol was born at [[Cuiviénen]] in the days before the [[Sun]] and the [[Moon]], when [[Middle-earth]] was lit only by starlight.

After the [[Chaining of Melkor]], the [[Valar|Vala]] [[Oromë]] took three Elves, [[Ingwë]], Finwë, and Elwë, to [[Valinor]] to convince the [[Elves]] to join the Valar in the [[Blessed Realm]]. Upon their return, the Elven ambassadors convinced many to join them on the [[Great Journey]] to the West. During the thousand mile journey, the Elven host separated into three groups, the [[Vanyar]], the [[Noldor]], and the Teleri.<ref name=capt>{{S|Captivity}}</ref>

The Teleri were the largest folk and they were divided in two hosts, led by Elwë and his brother Olwë. Elwë was more eager than his brother to see again Valinor, and wished to catch up with the Noldor because of his friendship with Finwë; but the Teleri were also the slowest and were the last to reach the western shores of Middle-earth.<ref name=capt/>
[[File:Elena Kukanova - Nan Elmoth - Elwe and Melian.jpg|thumb|left|''Nan Elmoth - Elwe and Melian'' by [[Elena Kukanova]]]]
After many years the Teleri crossed the [[Blue Mountains]] and stayed for some time in [[East Beleriand]].<ref name=capt/> During this time Elwë returned from a meeting with his friend Finwë, and wandered into the [[Nan Elmoth|Forest of Nan Elmoth]], where he met and fell in love with [[Melian]] the [[Maiar|Maia]]. Caught in an enchantment of their own making, Elwë and Melian could not be found by the searching Teleri. When the Valar returned to take the remaining Elves to Valinor, only some of them followed Olwë across the [[Belegaer|Great Sea]]. The rest had come to love the lands of [[Beleriand]] and refused to leave without their missing lord.<ref>{{S|Thingol}}</ref>

=== King of Doriath ===
[[File:J.R.R. Tolkien - Elwë heraldic device.jpg|100px|thumb|right|Elwë's device with the Winged Moon by [[J.R.R. Tolkien]]]]
In {{YT|1152}}, Elwë awoke from his trance and reappeared with his bride Melian.<ref>{{AA|74}}</ref> He was much changed since his people last they saw him: while he had been fair and noble before, he now stood like a Maia above them as the tallest of the Children of Ilúvatar. He gathered his people together and founded the Kingdom of [[Doriath]]. His subjects would become the Sindar, or the "Grey Elves", and their language was [[Sindarin]]. From then on Elwë was known as King Elu Thingol, and he claimed lordship over all the lands in [[Beleriand]]. While Thingol was king of the Grey Elves, he saw the light of the [[Two Trees]] as an ambassador of the Valar and thus he was counted as a [[High Elves|High Elf]], and equal to any lord of the Eldar.<ref name=Princes/><ref name="Thingol">{{S|Sindar}}</ref> He was even acknowledged as high-king of all the Teleri in Beleriand, even after Doriath became hidden.<ref name=PM/>

On Melian's advice, Thingol became an ally of the [[Dwarves]] of [[Belegost]], who carved the caverns of [[Menegroth]] for him. In payment he gave them, along with many other things, the great pearl [[Nimphelos]].<ref name="Thingol"/>

A thousand years before the first rising of the Sun and the Moon the [[Green-elves]] entered Beleriand under [[Denethor of the Nandor|Denethor]]. Thingol welcomed them and gave them the lands of [[Ossiriand]], which they named [[Lindon]]. The Green Elves told of the spread of the [[Orcs]] and other foul creatures in the north and east of Middle-earth. The Grey Elves began arming themselves.<ref name="Thingol"/>

Centuries later [[Melkor]] returned to Middle-earth. Now named Morgoth, he had destroyed the Two Trees, killed Finwë, the King of the Noldor, and stolen the fabled [[Silmarils]]. Seeking to claim dominion quickly, he launched a sudden assault on the lands of the Sindar. The [[First Battle of Beleriand]] went well for Thingol, who prevented any Orcs from invading Doriath, but the Green Elves took horrific losses and the [[Falathrim]] were besieged.<ref name="Thingol"/>

The Falathrim were finally saved by the unexpected arrival of the Noldor, who launched the [[Dagor-nuin-Giliath]] ("Battle Under the Stars") in which Morgoth's forces were all but annihilated.<ref name="Return">{{S|Return}}</ref>

=== Thingol and the Noldor ===
[[File:Elena Kukanova - King of Doriath.jpg|thumb|left|''King of Doriath'' by [[Elena Kukanova]]]]
After the First Battle of Beleriand, Doriath was encircled by the [[Girdle of Melian]], an impenetrable fence of enchantment that guarded the kingdom.<ref name="Thingol"/> While his own kingdom was protected, Thingol was still loath to surrender any other lands in Beleriand to the Noldor as he was suspicious of the aggressive new lords in Middle-earth.<ref name=Return/>
{{blockquote|In [[Hithlum]] the Noldor have leave to dwell, and in the highlands of [[Dorthonion]], and in the lands east of Doriath that are empty and wild... for I am the Lord of Beleriand, and all who seek to dwell there shall hear my word.|''[[Quenta Silmarillion]]'', "[[Of the Return of the Noldor]]"}}

King Thingol's relations with the Noldor were strained, and grew worse decades later when he learned the truth of the [[Kinslaying at Alqualondë]]. Thingol banned the use of [[Quenya]] in his lands, which led to Sindarin being the common Elven tongue in Middle-earth. The King of Doriath refused to aid the Noldor in the war against Morgoth, and took little part in the ongoing struggle.<ref>{{S|Noldor}}</ref>

=== Quest for the Silmaril ===
[[File:Felix Sotomayor - Beren at Thingol's Court.jpg|thumb|''Beren at Thingol's Court'' by [[Felix Sotomayor]]]]
{{Quote|If thou fearest neither spell, wall nor weapons, as thou saist, then go fetch me a Silmaril from the crown of Morgoth. Then we will give jewel for jewel, but thou shalt win the fairer: Lúthien of the First-born and of the Gods.|Thingol, ''[[War of the Jewels]]'', "The Gray Annals"}}
Thingol and Melian had one child, a daughter named [[Lúthien]], said to be the fairest woman ever to live. Lúthien fell in love with a [[Men|Man]] named [[Beren]]. Thingol did not wish for the two to wed, as he valued his daughter very highly and disliked Men. As a bride-price he asked for a Silmaril from the crown of [[Morgoth]], thinking there was no way that Beren could fulfill this demand.<ref name="Beren">{{S|Beren}}</ref>

However, when Beren and Lúthien came back from [[Angband]], and when Beren showed him his missing hand which still held the Silmaril in the belly of [[Carcharoth]], he softened his heart towards him. Soon, though, Carcharoth in his anguish and rage from the Silmaril that burned his insides, broke through the Girdle of Melian and entered Doriath. In that hour, Thingol, along with Beren, [[Mablung]], [[Beleg]], and [[Huan]] the Hound of Valinor, began the [[Hunting of the Wolf]]. Carcharoth was finally slain by Huan, but both Huan and Beren died in the process. After that, Lúthien died also, and coming to the [[Halls of Mandos]] she begged [[Mandos]] that Beren be returned to life. However, it was beyond the power of Mandos to withhold the souls of Men from going beyond the [[Circles of the World]].<ref name=Beren/>

Therefore, [[Ilúvatar]], through [[Manwë]], offered Lúthien and Beren the opportunity to live again, but with Lúthien sharing the [[Gift of Men]]. She agreed, and they both came back to life and lived out the remainder of their second lives at [[Tol Galen]], far from the sight of any other mortals.<ref name=Beren/>

=== Fostering of Túrin ===
Thingol adopted as a son a young Man named [[Túrin]], son of [[Húrin]] and akin to Beren himself, who was sent to Doriath when he was seven years old.<ref>{{CH|4}}</ref> When he grew up, he was permitted to join Beleg Cúthalion on the marches of Doriath, fighting the Orcs of Morgoth.<ref name="Turin">{{S|Turin}}</ref><ref>{{CH|5}}</ref>

Túrin accidentally caused the death of [[Saeros]], one of Thingol's counselors who had provoked and attacked him. Before he could be either punished or forgiven he fled. Thingol however gave Beleg a leave to seek out his friend, who in the meantime had joined a [[Gaurwaith|band of outlaws]].<ref>{{CH|6}}</ref> Telling to Thingol that Túrin did not wish to return, Thingol allowed Beleg to go and join his friend and gave him the black sword [[Anglachel]] that [[Eöl]] had forged and given to Thingol<ref>{{S|Maeglin}}</ref> in tribute.<ref name=Turin/>

=== Nauglamír and death ===
[[File:Peter Xavier Price - Thingol's End.jpg|thumb|right|''Thingol's End'' by [[Peter Xavier Price]]]]
Sometime after Túrin's tragic death, Húrin, now an old man released from Morgoth's captivity, was allowed to enter Menegroth. In anger, he threw the [[Nauglamír]], the treasure of [[Nargothrond]], before King Thingol, bitterly "thanking" him for aiding his son. Melian pierced through Húrin's madness and grief; shamed by his actions, he offered the Nauglamír to Thingol sincerely and left Menegroth a broken man.<ref name="Doriath">{{S|Doriath}}</ref>

At that time, a desire came into Thingol's heart to take the Nauglamír and place the Silmaril into it, thus melding together two of the greatest creations made by the Elves and the Dwarves. He hired skilled [[Dwarves of Nogrod|Dwarven craftsmen]], but they secretly desired to possess both treasures for themselves. After their work was completed, the Dwarves refused to give the Nauglamír to Thingol, claiming that he had no right to own the priceless necklace made by their ancestors. Realizing that they were coveting the Silmaril, Thingol became infuriated and insulted them. The Dwarves were angered by his harsh words and killed him. This led to the [[battle in the Thousand Caves|sacking of Menegroth]] and the eventual [[Second Kinslaying|destruction of Doriath]], which scattered its people.<ref name=Doriath/>

== Characteristics ==
His hair was grey as silver, his eyes were as stars, and he was the tallest of all the Elven-folk.<ref>{{MR|P3I3}}</ref>{{rp|§27}} which means that he was taller than Elendil, probably the tallest man, who was 7'11" or 2.41 m tall.<ref name=linear>{{UT|Linear}}, note concerning the different routes from Osgiliath to Imladris, first paragraph</ref>)

== Etymology ==
{{Pronounce|Elwe Singollo.mp3|Ardamir}}
'''Thingol''' was his [[epessë|anessë]] (given name) in [[Sindarin]], which means "Greycloak"<ref>{{MR|P3II3a}}, p. 217</ref> or Greymantle.<ref name=Thingol>{{S|Sindar}}</ref> The first element of the name is ''thin(d)'' ("grey").<ref>{{S|Elements}}, entry ''thin(d)''</ref><ref>{{PE|17}}, entry Q '''sinda''', p. 72</ref> Paul Strack suggests that the second element ''gol'' is the [[lenition|lenited]] form of ''coll'' ("cloak", "mantle").<ref>{{webcite|author=Paul Strack|articleurl=https://www.eldamo.org/content/words/word-3589954001.html|articlename=S. ''Thingol'' m.|website=Eldamo|accessed=10 May 2024}}</ref>

== Other names ==
[[Quenya]] tradition names him '''''Elwë''''' and ''[[Singollo]]'', for the [[Noldor]] pronounced his epessë as '''''Singollo'''''.{{fact}}

His first name, ''Elwë'', means "star-man" and contains ''[[el]]'' and ''[[-we]]''.

'''''Elwë Þindicollo''''' or '''Sindicollo''' was the ancient name of King Thingol; when he settled in [[Doriath]] with [[Melian]], he took the [[Sindarin]] form of his name, ''Elu Thingol''.

== Genealogy ==
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | ENL |y| ENE | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |ENL=[[Enel]] ''awoke in {{YT|1050}}''|ENE=[[Enelyë]] ''awoke in {{YT|1050}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | |D|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|7| |}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | |:| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |:| |}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | |:| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |:| |}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | |,|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|.| | | |:| |}}
{{familytree | | | MEL |y| THI | | OLW | | | | | | | | | | ELM | | CIR |MEL=[[Melian]]|THI='''THINGOL''' ''d. {{FA|503}}''|OLW=[[Olwë]] ''b. {{YT}}''|ELM=[[Elmo]] ''b. {{YT}}''|CIR=[[Círdan]] ''b. {{YT}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | |!| | | |,|-|^|-|.| | | | | | | | | |!| | | | | |}}
{{familytree | BER |y| LUT | | SON | | EAW |y| FIN | | | | GLD | | | | |SON=''unnamed sons''|LUT=[[Lúthien]] ''{{YT|1200}} - {{FA|503}}''|EAW=[[Eärwen]] ''b. {{YT}}''|GLD=[[Galadhon]] ''b. {{YT}}''|FIN=[[Finarfin]] ''b. {{YT|1230}}''|BER=[[Beren]] ''{{FA|432}} - {{FA|503|n}}''}}
{{familytree | | | |!| |,|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|v|-|^|-|.| | | |,|-|^|-|.| | | |}}
{{familytree | | | |!| FND | | ANG | | AEG | | GAL |~| CEL | | GLT |GAL=[[Galadriel]] ''b. {{YT|1362}}''|CEL=[[Celeborn]] ''b. {{YT}}''|GLT=[[Galathil]] ''b. {{YT}}''|FND=[[Finrod]] ''{{YT|1300}} - {{FA|465}}''|ANG=[[Angrod]] ''d. {{FA|455}}''|AEG=[[Aegnor]] ''d. {{FA|455}}''}}
{{familytree | | | |!| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |!| | | |}}
{{familytree | | | DIO |~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|y|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~| NIM |DIO=[[Dior]] ''{{FA|470}} - {{FA|506|n}}''|NIM=[[Nimloth of Doriath|Nimloth]] ''d. {{FA|506}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | |,|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|.| | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | ELD | | ELN | | ELW | | | | | | | | | |ELD=[[Eluréd]] ''{{FA|500}} - c. {{FA|507|n}}''|ELN=[[Elurín]] ''{{FA|500}} - c. {{FA|507|n}}''|ELW=[[Elwing]] ''b. {{FA|503}}''}}
{{familytree/end}}

== Other versions of the legendarium ==
{{expansion}}
In ''[[The Book of Lost Tales Part One]]'' his [[Qenya]] name is ''Linwë Tinto'' or ''Tinwë Linto'' and his [[Gnomish]] name is ''Tinwelint''.<ref>{{LT1|Appendix}}, entry "Tinwë Linto, Tinwelint"</ref> He was led away from [[Solosimpi]], his people, by the beautiful music of [[Melian|Wendelin]], and never returned to them. [[Ellu]] took his place as their leader.<ref>{{LT1|V}}</ref> In a crossed out note, only Tinwelint's children, [[Tinfang Warble|Timpinen]] and [[Lúthien|Tinúviel]], returned later to the Eldar.<ref>{{LT1|IVn}}, note 1</ref>

In ''[[The Book of Lost Tales Part Two]]'', Tinwelint found Gwendeling by following the song of her nightingales. He stopped to listen for what he thought was a moment, although in reality it lasted many years. He came upon her in the forest, where she lay listening also to the nightingales. Thinking her very beautiful, he began to approach her, but she rose and ran away laughing. He then fell into a deep sleep while she remained, and kept watch over him a long time. His people, who had long ago departed to Valinor, were forgotten by Tinwelint when he at last awoke and found her still nearby. Eventually the two were wed.<ref name=lt2i/>

Tinwë Linto/Tinwelint reigned with Wendelin/Gwendeling ([[Vëannë]] and [[Ausir (boy)|Ausir]], children talking to [[Eriol]], argued about their names) over the Lost Elves of [[Doriath|Artanor]]. Tolkien considered also the name ''[[Ellu]]'' for him.<ref name=lt2i>{{LT2|I}}</ref> His children were Tinúviel and [[Daeron|Dairon]].<ref name=lt2i/>

{{references|notes}}

{{seq-start}}
{{seq-head
| race=sindar
| house=Founded the [[House of Elwë]]
| born=Between {{YT|1050}} and {{YT|1102|n}}
| died={{FA|502}}
}}
{{seq
| prev=''[[Enel]], as Chieftain of the [[Nelyar]]''
| pvac=None
| list=King of the [[Teleri]]
| dates={{YT|1105}} - {{YT|1132|n}} (with [[Olwë]])
| next=[[Olwë]]
}}
{{seq
| prev=Title established
| pvac=None
| list=1st [[King of Doriath|King]] of [[Doriath]]
| dates={{YT|1152}} – {{FA|503}}
| next=[[Dior]]
}}
{{seq-end}}

[[Category:Calaquendi]]
[[Category:Characters in The Book of Lost Tales]]
[[Category:Characters in The Children of Húrin]]
[[Category:Characters in The Silmarillion]]
[[Category:First Age characters]]
[[Category:House of Elwë]]
[[Category:Ilkorindi]]
[[Category:Ilkorin names]]
[[Category:Nelyar]]
[[Category:Rulers in Beleriand]]
[[Category:Rulers in the Great Lands]]
[[Category:Sindar]]
[[Category:Sindarin names]]
[[de:Elwe]]
[[fi:Thingol]]
[[fr:encyclo/personnages/elfes/teleri/sindar/elu thingol]]

Talk:Misconceptions

2025-02-18T09:46:15Z

Erendis: /* Male Elves have short hair */ Reply

__TOC__

I salvaged some non-trivial examples from an recent version of [[fanon]] article. Since we have already other debates liked "mistakes in Tolkien's works", we can tolerate this article too. This I consider also useful because I have also fallen victim to such misconceptions. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 20:46, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

:I agree. I simply removed all of it from fanon for the sake of ease. An article is good (maybe rename it though to have some consistency.

:Now I'm off. Happy new year, all. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 22:35, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

::I think if this article gets a bit more polished, it might be useful to link to this on the main page.
::Happy new year, Ederchil~& Sage. [[User:Grond|Grond]] 22:39, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
:::Maybe we can add also something about Lurtz, Orodreth and Gil-Galad ancestery...and uhm...the location of Dorwinion.

''Midden-Aarde Essays'' (a book of essays from Tolkien's work, made by a friend of my, what he is soon gonna publish in Dutch) says something about that in the chapter "Mysteries van de Hobbit, Dorwinion" ("Engimas of the Hobbit, Dorwinion") --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 15:54, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

:Actually, [[Dorwinion]]'s location is not really a mystery - Tolkien placed it on the Western bank of the [[Sea of Rhûn]]. How is Lurtz a misconception? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 16:00, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

::About your ½ rigth. It was only not Tolkien who placed there but his illustrator, latter Tolkien agreed with it. Many people think that it was [[Lurtz]] who killed Boromir while many [[Uruks]] did it.

::This comes from the chapter "Dorwinion":

''Uit de tekst van ‘De Hobbit’ is dan ook niet te achterhalen waar Dorwinion juist lag en wie er woonde. Desondanks is de ligging van het land op een andere manier duidelijk geworden. Pauline Baynes, de favoriete illustrator van Tolkien , zette Dorwinion in 1969 op de landkaart. Ze plaatste het land aan de monding van de Running, aan de noordwestelijke oevers van de Zee van Rhûn (zie kaart).''

''Hoewel Tolkien bezwaar had tegen sommige andere plaatsen die Pauline Baynes op de kaart gezet had, verklaarde hij zich wel akkoord met de ligging van Dorwinion. En ondanks het feit dat de Zee van Rhûn niet de locatie was die Tolkien oorspronkelijk in gedachten had, is het land sindsdien wel op die plaats blijven liggen. Christopher Tolkien merkt hetzelfde op in ‘The Lays of Beleriand’:''

“Dorwinion is marked on the decorated map by Pauline Baynes, as a region on the North-western shores of the Sea of Rhun. It must be presumed that this, like other names on that map, was communicated to her by my father, but its placing seems surprising.”

--[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 16:12, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

:Dorwinion dan maar wel. Maar Lurtz komt alleen maar uit de film. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 16:24, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

==Cleanup/Rewrite==
Going through the different "misconceptions":
#Definition of First Age; Third Age "of the Sun": keep.
#The Arkenstone was a Silmaril: keep
#Elrond visits Elros in Númenor: what part of the text implies such a thing? With the current wording it seems the "misconception" is created to highlight a trivial abandoned concept.
#Arwen, the lastborn of the Elves: keep. It was portrayed sort of like that in the movies
#Legolas's age: omit, already at Legolas
#Legolas hair color: see previous
#Names of the Nazgûl: remove or rewrite
#A female Nazgûl: remove or merge with 7.
#Mrs. Thranduil: there are so many characters whose mother's name is unknown, it's pointless to single out Legolas. Also, if this stays, can we at least tell the reader what the name is?
#The War in the North: pointless. Maybe inspired by BfMeII, but I'm pretty sure the promotional material for the game explicitly mentioned it was fiction.
#The shape of Middle-earth: we can keep this, but with a rewrite
#Pointed ears: why is it under misconceptions if it's pointed out (npi) that it's true?
#Hobbit feet: huge? rephrase
#Déagol/Sméagol relationship: keep. Maybe also point out that they weren't Hobbits, but ancestors of Hobbits.
#Gollum's age: pointless. Nothing in the text suggests such a thing.
#Tengwar on Sting: pointless. We might change this to "Bilbo named Sting when he found it", because that's what happened in the RB movie, the 2003 game and I believe the radio plays too.
#Saruman, the creator of Uruk-hai: rewrite.
#Dorwinion: keep

#Add: in light of Last Waterbender's recent edit to [[Bregalad]], we should also explain here that "beam" means "tree" here (cf. German ''baum'', Dutch ''boom'', Frisian ''beam''), not "a beam of light", and note something about translators messing up (Schuchart, for one, did).

Any other ideas? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 17:52, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
:As I agree that most of your points are not really misconceptions, I removed some of them (and left others). I also removed the "shape of middle-earth" thing since it doesn't seem as a misconception to me. The map was drawn by Tolkien; it is not said that it was replaced by another map; nor it is contradicted by the Silmarillion. I also collected some more from other articles. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 08:45, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

==Legolas' hair?==
The article: "However, in The Fellowship of the Ring it is stated that Legolas' hair was "dark", and dark brown or black hair was most common among the Sindar."
:Is it so? Here I would like to see the sources, so that the misconceptions would not be replaced by other misconceptions. What it comes to Legolas' dark ''hair'', I suppose the source in the ''Fellowship'' is this: "His head was dark, crowned with sharp white stars that glittered in the black pools of the sky behind." ({{FR|II9}}). But does this really tell anything about the colour of his hair or even of his skin? I suppose that we can only say, that when Frodo saw Legolas standing above him, the figure of the Elf was dark against the sky. – The source for the dark hair among the Sindar in general would also be nice to have. --Tik 11:47, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

==Buckland==

I'd suggest taking out the reference to Buckland or changing it. Early editions stated explicitly that Buckland was added to the Shire, and I'm not sure it's clear that the change in recent editions is the one Tolkien would have made, so I wouldn't call it a misconception. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] 20:15, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

:The semicolon was present already in the second edition (1966). -- [[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 08:41, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

==Sex of Nazgul==

The current text says <<with their consistent references as "Men" and "kings", although it could be argued that "Men" includes women>>. The part about "men" including women can be pretty much assumed - that term is usually used in place of "humankind", not as a plural of "man" in the sense of "male". Like in https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Men. Would emphasize that, as to make clear that Tolkien hasn't given us any information about gender here. Given how the civilizations feel, a woman is not that likely, but not impossible either, but if we don't want to speculate, the fact is that no information in that regard is given.

:Honestly while we cannot definitively say that all of the Nazgul were men, we cannot definitively say they weren't either. Furthermore, in the case of the Numenorians cited in the article, the three Ruling Queens are specifically referred to as such in the text. I think if Tolkien had wanted there to be a woman among the Ringwraiths, he would have included an explicit mention of a queen or sorceress or whatever among their ranks. I'm tempted to remove that part from the article, but I admit we can't 100% say one way or the other. --[[User:Turiannerevarine|Turiannerevarine]] 10:47, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

::I'm actually not sure if this part of the article should even be here. I do not know what exactly I would label this part as, to be honest, but I do acknowledge that it is a least a valid point, so I want other people to weigh in on this. Personally I think at the very least break it out from the names of the Nazgul to its own section for better page formatting.--[[User:Turiannerevarine|Turiannerevarine]] 23:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

:::The part about the sex of the Nazgul should stay. In Middle-earth Role Playing (MERP) publications there is a female numenorean nazgul called Adunaphel and the names and the Sex of these nazgul exist on several sites on the internet. A lot of older Tolkien Fans are familiar with those names. Tolkien legt the question open. Tolkien also explicitly mentions the Rings for the elven "Kings" in the Ring verse in The Lord of the Rings, but Galadriel is one of the bearers of the Rings for the elves and she is female and is the de facto queen of Lorien although she does not call herself so according to The History of Galadriel and Celeborn in UT. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhorahil]] 14:20, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

==Order==
I can't judge the rewriting, but this needs some kind of order, isn't it? Also, maybe a subsection for misconceptions created by the movies? --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 21:25, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

:It probably does, but I am not sure what kind of order it would need. Maybe by book?[[User:Turiannerevarine|Turiannerevarine]] 23:01, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

::I'd vote for alphabetical order. --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 17:08, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

:::I think that if we separated the misconceptions by book or movie, it would be easier for people to find what they are looking for. --[[User:Ancalagon the Black|Ancalagon the Black]] 18:11, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

::::Page has been reordered according to book/adapation (includes Jackson movies as well as other adaptations) and then alphabetically within the individual sections.[[User:Turiannerevarine|Turiannerevarine]] 22:30, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

:::::Perfect! --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 08:02, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

=="Age of the Sun"==

What about adding the new section about the common misconception that the First Age as if began with the first sunrise? -- [[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 07:59, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

:Great idea! [[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] ([[User talk:Hyarion|talk]]) 03:52, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

==Do We Need This Article?==

The entire point of this wiki is to provide information on Tolkien's lore, so I am not sure how important this is. Also, I've never met anyone who claimed definitively that the Arkenstone is a Silmaril, and it seems firmly in the fan-theory category (albeit, I admit, a rather weak one).
Also, I am not sure if we can fairly place Gil-Galad son of Fingon in here. Yes, the final version has Orodreth as his father, but that does not change the fact that ''a'' version had Fingon (I believe one also had Finrod, if I remember correctly). Gil-Galad's parentage is not mentioned in any writing published in Tolkien's lifetime, so I am not convinced it needs to be present. Following this pattern, we might add "Galadriel was involved in the Noldorin rebellion", since it is fairly clear Tolkien intended to rewrite her history so that she was not.
Also, this article states, "The Ring that Celebrimbor gave to Durin was a notable exception, being the only one of the Seven or the Nine purposely intended for a non-Elf." I am not sure this is entirely true. In the Unfinished Tales, it is stated, "There Sauron took the Nine Rings and other lesser works of the Mírdain; but the Seven and the Three he could not find", which seems to suggest that at least one point, Tolkien considered Celebrimbor himself to have given out all Seven to the different Dwarf lords himself, nor, as far as I can tell, does Appendix A "On Dúrin's Folk" ever go against this idea.

[[User:SingingOrc|SingingOrc]] ([[User talk:SingingOrc|talk]]) [[User:SingingOrc|SingingOrc]] ([[User talk:SingingOrc|talk]]) 18:40, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

:I agree. Some of the 'misconceptions' here are simply alternate versions of (at least in some instances) a very contradictory and muddled textual history. [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 16:08, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

==Deletion of "Merging Buckland"==

This is not a misconception. Foster and others based it on the original text of the first and second editions. Hammond and Scull added a semicolon to remove the inconsistency. See [[Possible_inconsistencies_in_the_legendarium#Addition_of_the_Westmarch_(and_Buckland)_to_the_Shire]]. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 15:40, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

:Are you sure that it was indeed Hammond & Scull who added a semicolon in the sentence? Just check out the second edition (1966) by yourself: https://archive.org/details/fellowshipofring0000unse_l5a0 -- [[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 16:32, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
:Or https://archive.org/details/lordofrings0000unse_y8h4/ -- [[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 16:35, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

::Very interesting! Thanks for pointing that out. Here are two from Houghton Mifflin with no semicolon: [https://books.google.com/books?id=_6onAQAAMAAJ&q=%22east+and+west+marches+the+buckland%22&dq=%22east+and+west+marches+the+buckland%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiKm6eg2auFAxUc8MkDHd9KBJYQ6AF6BAgGEAI] [https://books.google.com/books?id=UEmplIa6aOIC&q=%22outside+the+farthings+were%22&dq=%22outside+the+farthings+were%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjn29q8w6uFAxVG_8kDHSXKCs8Q6AF6BAgNEAI]

::So clearly I was wrong to say Hammond and Scull added the semicolon. Do you know the history? Was it lost in the American editions or added at some point to the British ones?

::Anyway, I'd say the article should make it clear that the belief was caused by the lack of a semicolon. Whether it was a misconception depends on whether Tolkien put the semicolon there, which seems likely. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 18:38, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

==Tom Bombadil in the Old Forest==

While I'm here, how about a section on the misconception that Tom Bombadil lives in the Old Forest and even that it constitutes his entire country? I see that now and then on Quora (where I’ve been correcting it). Here are some examples from a long article on Tom. “His realm is not just '''the Old Forest (though he lives in it''' by choice). His realm is Arda, where he was placed first before all other entities, creations and things.” And “If Tom and '''his domain in the Old Forest''' is more secure than even Doriath under Melian's protection and more secret or unassailable than Gondolin, either way, Tom further demonstrates he is more powerful than Morgoth.” <nowiki>[https://thenine1.quora.com/On-the-Entity-of-Tom-Bombadil-Ea-s-Deus-Ex-Terra]</nowiki>

By the way, I don't agree with that writer's conclusions either. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 21:02, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

:I don't understand. Tom Bombadil obviously does live in the Old Forest. What is the misconception here? --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 17:45, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

::See the paragraph starting "Just as they felt their feet slowing down" near the end of the chapter "The Old Forest" and the following paragraph, which make it explicit that the hobbits left the forest and still have considerable walking to do to get to Tom's house. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 19:35, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
:::Hmm, you're right, the house is on a bare hill just ''outside'' the forest. I didn't remember that. The lede of [[Tom Bombadil]] needs to be corrected too (it says "in the depths of the Old Forest"). --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 04:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
::::OK, I think we've got enough reason to add this topic. I just fixed the lead of [[Tom Bombadil]], by the way. What do people think of adding the previous version as a reference to how widespread the misconception is? [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 17:12, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

:::::I added the location of his house to the article. There are also Web sites that say LOTRO and Minecraft: Middle-earth put Tom's house in the Old Forest. If people who can check those games or others want to add them to the references, I think that would be good. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 18:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

:::And you're right, of course, that Bombadil's realm comprises the Barrow-Downs as well as the forest, and apparently the surrounding country as far north as the East Road. --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 04:38, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
::::And if you believe "[[Bombadil Goes Boating]]" (which I do), it extends west and a little south to parts of Buckland and the Marish at least as far as [[Farmer Maggot]]'s farm. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 17:12, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::Bombadil Goes Boating is ''not'' Canon, IMO, but we know from FOTR that Bombadil knows Maggot and has talked to him, so he presumably comes to the Marish sometimes. --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 03:26, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::Well, you could imagine that Maggot visited Tom's house or something.
::::::To clarify what I wrote, I don't believe that the events in "Bombadil Goes Boating" necessarily occurred, but I am willing to rely on the implication that Tom visited Maggot, especially with the corroboration that he knows Maggot. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 21:39, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Another one, which I believe Robert Foster believed, is that Tom in "[[The Stone Troll]]" is based on Tom Bombadil, though they have nothing in common but the name. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 04:56, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

==Male Elves have short hair==

1) What is the texte source for Elwë/Thingol's hair length ? I haven't found it in the given sources. I've just found in HOME 5 QS § 27 that "Elwë was their lord and his hair was long and white", but this is for a Tolkien's writting time when Olwë is called "Elwë" (Olwë has got white hair, Thingol has got grey silver hair)

2) Maybe add that Beleg (and Gwindor ?) have long dark hair ? cf Tolkien's "Fangorn" painting.

3) "And regarding Finwë and the other Noldor, "Ingwë had curling golden hair. Finwë (and Míriel) had long dark hair, so had Fëanor and all the Noldor, save by intermarriage which did not often take place between clans, [...]. Melian was dark, and so was Lúthien." from The Nature of Middle-earth - "Hair," Suggesting that the Noldor, including Finwë had long hair. "
=> I'm not agree about "Suggesting that the Noldor, including Finwë had long hair." : this text passage is clearly about hair colour, not length. Intermarriage does not affect hair length, only colour. So, from this text, we can say that Finwë has long hair, but not the others.

(the next passage suggests more clearly this fact)

[[User:Erendis|Erendis]] ([[User talk:Erendis|talk]]) 19:30, 14 February 2025 (UTC)

:4. "In the case of Fingon it was suitable; he wore his long dark hair in great plaits braided with gold." (The names of Finwë’s descendants.)
:5. "his (Aegnor's) hair was notable: golden like his brothers and sister, but strong and stiff, rising upon his head like flames." (same source.)
:6. "his (Glorfindel's) hair flowed shimmering in the wind of his speed." (LotR, Flight to the Ford)
:7. "Elwe himself had indeed long and beautiful hair of silver hue" (NoME, "C. The Clan-names...")
:8. "Their (Wood-elves') gloaming hair was twined with flowers..." (The Hobbit, Flies and Spiders)
:9. "The wind was in his (Amroth's) flowing hair" (LotR, Lothlorien)
:10. "the hair of Lord Celeborn was of silver long and bright" (LotR, The Mirror of Galadriel) [[User:Angon|Angon]] ([[User talk:Angon|talk]]) 21:01, 14 February 2025 (UTC)
::5) it seems to me that we can't affirm that Aegnor's got long hair : with strong and stiff hair, it rises upon your head only when it's not too long, I think. Anyway, you don't need to have long hair to correspond to this description.
::8 ) same for flowers twined in hair
::7) It's in HOME 11, not NOME :) ; but thanks for searching :)
::9) Amroth and may have "only" shoulder-length hair, but it's longer than "short" :) [[User:Erendis|Erendis]] ([[User talk:Erendis|talk]]) 16:00, 17 February 2025 (UTC)
:::5) I think that to "rise like flames" the hair had to be sufficiently long (about shoulder-length or so), especially since it is a description of form, not color. But I agree that Aegnor's probably weren't too long.
:::8) Similarly, hair has to be sufficiently long to twine flowers in it. Again, maybe shoulder-length or so, but definitely not short.
:::(Of course, "long hair" is relative. Boromir is described as "his locks were shorn about his shoulders" during the Council of Elrond and as having "long dark hair ... arrayed ... upon his shoulders" in The Departure of Boromir. Of course several months had passe and his hair likely became longer, but it seems that hair longer than shoulder-length could be described as "long").
:::7) Sorry for confusion, my mistake. [[User:Angon|Angon]] ([[User talk:Angon|talk]]) 23:52, 17 February 2025 (UTC)
::::''Of course, "long hair" is relative. [...] but it seems that hair longer than shoulder-length could be described as "long".''
::::I'm agree with you :) [[User:Erendis|Erendis]] ([[User talk:Erendis|talk]]) 09:46, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

Thingol

2025-02-17T16:04:44Z

Erendis: add hair description

{{infobox character
| people=[[Sindar|Sinda]]
| name=Thingol
| image=Kimberly - Nauglamir Thingol.jpg
| caption="Nauglamir Thingol" by [[:Category:Images by Kimberly|Kimberly]]
| pronun=[[Sindarin|S]], {{IPA|[ˈelu]}} {{IPA|[ˈθiŋɡol]}}
| othernames=''[[Elu]]'' ([[Sindarin|S]]) ''[[Elwë]]'' ([[Quenya|Q]]) ''[[Singollo]]'' ([[Quenya|Q]], [[Epessë|an]])
| titles=Greycloak King Greymantle The Hidden King [[King of Doriath]] Lord of Beleriand
| position=
| location=[[Cuiviénen]] [[Doriath]]
| affiliation=
| language=[[Common Eldarin]] [[Doriathrin]] ([[Sindarin]] dialect)
| birth=Between {{YT|1050}} & {{YT|1102|n}}
| birthlocation=[[Cuiviénen]]
| rule={{YT|1152}} - {{FA|503}}
| death={{FA|503}}<ref group="note">Thingol's death is indeed placed under {{YS|503}} in the final version of the [[The Tale of Years (The War of the Jewels)|The Tale of Years]] from ''[[The War of the Jewels]]'', but there he was killed in the battle with the Dwarves. However, according to the narrative introduced after much hesitation into the published ''[[The Silmarillion|Silmarillion]]'' by [[Christopher Tolkien]], it occurred immediately after the reforging of the [[Nauglamír]].</ref>
| deathlocation=[[Menegroth]]
| age=at least 4,316<ref group="note">[[Years of the Sun]]. Each [[Years of the Trees|Year of the Trees]] is equal to 9.582 Years of the Sun, and the Years of the Trees ended in the [[Year of the Trees 1500|year 1500]].</ref>
| notablefor=
| house=
| parentage=Unknown (descendant of [[Enel]] & [[Enelyë]])<ref>{{NM|P1xvii}}, p. 127</ref>
| siblings=[[Olwë]] [[Elmo]]<ref>{{UT|Galadriel}}</ref>
| spouse=[[Melian]]
| children=[[Lúthien]] Fostered [[Túrin]]
| gender=Male
| height=The tallest of all the [[Children of Ilúvatar]]<ref name=Princes>{{S|Princes}}</ref><ref>{{AA|74}}, p. 86</ref><ref name=Hair>{{GA|16}}, p. 9</ref>
| hair=Grey silver<ref name=Princes/><ref name=Hair/> (long)<ref>{{WJ|Quendi}}, pp. 384</ref>
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=[[Aranrúth]]
| steed=
}}
{{Quote|In Beleriand King Thingol upon his throne was as the lords of the [[Maiar]], whose power is at rest, whose joy is as an air that they breathe in all their days, whose thought flows in a tide untroubled from the heights to the deeps.|''[[Quenta Silmarillion]]'', "[[Of the Sindar]]"}}

'''Thingol''', also known as '''Elu''', was one of the two kings of the [[Teleri]], the other being his younger<ref name=PM>{{PM|Last}}, "Círdan", p. 385</ref> brother [[Olwë]]. He was also the [[King of Doriath]] and the greatest lord of the [[Sindar]]. Known as '''Elwë''' during the first years of the [[Eldar]], he was the older brother of Olwë and [[Elmo]]. He was also a good friend of [[Finwë]], [[King of the Noldor]]. His hair was silver and he was the tallest of all Elves and Men.<ref name=Princes/> As the acknowledged high-king of the Sindar in [[Beleriand]],<ref>{{WJ|Author}}, note 11</ref> Thingol would become a central figure of the [[First Age]], instigating the [[Quest for the Silmaril]], the greatest victory of the Age, but ultimately the cause of his own doom.

== History ==
=== Ambassador of the Valar ===
Thingol was born at [[Cuiviénen]] in the days before the [[Sun]] and the [[Moon]], when [[Middle-earth]] was lit only by starlight.

After the [[Chaining of Melkor]], the [[Valar|Vala]] [[Oromë]] took three Elves, [[Ingwë]], Finwë, and Elwë, to [[Valinor]] to convince the [[Elves]] to join the Valar in the [[Blessed Realm]]. Upon their return, the Elven ambassadors convinced many to join them on the [[Great Journey]] to the West. During the thousand mile journey, the Elven host separated into three groups, the [[Vanyar]], the [[Noldor]], and the Teleri.<ref name=capt>{{S|Captivity}}</ref>

The Teleri were the largest folk and they were divided in two hosts, led by Elwë and his brother Olwë. Elwë was more eager than his brother to see again Valinor, and wished to catch up with the Noldor because of his friendship with Finwë; but the Teleri were also the slowest and were the last to reach the western shores of Middle-earth.<ref name=capt/>
[[File:Elena Kukanova - Nan Elmoth - Elwe and Melian.jpg|thumb|left|''Nan Elmoth - Elwe and Melian'' by [[Elena Kukanova]]]]
After many years the Teleri crossed the [[Blue Mountains]] and stayed for some time in [[East Beleriand]].<ref name=capt/> During this time Elwë returned from a meeting with his friend Finwë, and wandered into the [[Nan Elmoth|Forest of Nan Elmoth]], where he met and fell in love with [[Melian]] the [[Maiar|Maia]]. Caught in an enchantment of their own making, Elwë and Melian could not be found by the searching Teleri. When the Valar returned to take the remaining Elves to Valinor, only some of them followed Olwë across the [[Belegaer|Great Sea]]. The rest had come to love the lands of [[Beleriand]] and refused to leave without their missing lord.<ref>{{S|Thingol}}</ref>

=== King of Doriath ===
[[File:J.R.R. Tolkien - Elwë heraldic device.jpg|100px|thumb|right|Elwë's device with the Winged Moon by [[J.R.R. Tolkien]]]]
In {{YT|1152}}, Elwë awoke from his trance and reappeared with his bride Melian.<ref>{{AA|74}}</ref> He was much changed since his people last they saw him: while he had been fair and noble before, he now stood like a Maia above them as the tallest of the Children of Ilúvatar. He gathered his people together and founded the Kingdom of [[Doriath]]. His subjects would become the Sindar, or the "Grey Elves", and their language was [[Sindarin]]. From then on Elwë was known as King Elu Thingol, and he claimed lordship over all the lands in [[Beleriand]]. While Thingol was king of the Grey Elves, he saw the light of the [[Two Trees]] as an ambassador of the Valar and thus he was counted as a [[High Elves|High Elf]], and equal to any lord of the Eldar.<ref name=Princes/><ref name="Thingol">{{S|Sindar}}</ref> He was even acknowledged as high-king of all the Teleri in Beleriand, even after Doriath became hidden.<ref name=PM/>

On Melian's advice, Thingol became an ally of the [[Dwarves]] of [[Belegost]], who carved the caverns of [[Menegroth]] for him. In payment he gave them, along with many other things, the great pearl [[Nimphelos]].<ref name="Thingol"/>

A thousand years before the first rising of the Sun and the Moon the [[Green-elves]] entered Beleriand under [[Denethor of the Nandor|Denethor]]. Thingol welcomed them and gave them the lands of [[Ossiriand]], which they named [[Lindon]]. The Green Elves told of the spread of the [[Orcs]] and other foul creatures in the north and east of Middle-earth. The Grey Elves began arming themselves.<ref name="Thingol"/>

Centuries later [[Melkor]] returned to Middle-earth. Now named Morgoth, he had destroyed the Two Trees, killed Finwë, the King of the Noldor, and stolen the fabled [[Silmarils]]. Seeking to claim dominion quickly, he launched a sudden assault on the lands of the Sindar. The [[First Battle of Beleriand]] went well for Thingol, who prevented any Orcs from invading Doriath, but the Green Elves took horrific losses and the [[Falathrim]] were besieged.<ref name="Thingol"/>

The Falathrim were finally saved by the unexpected arrival of the Noldor, who launched the [[Dagor-nuin-Giliath]] ("Battle Under the Stars") in which Morgoth's forces were all but annihilated.<ref name="Return">{{S|Return}}</ref>

=== Thingol and the Noldor ===
[[File:Elena Kukanova - King of Doriath.jpg|thumb|left|''King of Doriath'' by [[Elena Kukanova]]]]
After the First Battle of Beleriand, Doriath was encircled by the [[Girdle of Melian]], an impenetrable fence of enchantment that guarded the kingdom.<ref name="Thingol"/> While his own kingdom was protected, Thingol was still loath to surrender any other lands in Beleriand to the Noldor as he was suspicious of the aggressive new lords in Middle-earth.<ref name=Return/>
{{blockquote|In [[Hithlum]] the Noldor have leave to dwell, and in the highlands of [[Dorthonion]], and in the lands east of Doriath that are empty and wild... for I am the Lord of Beleriand, and all who seek to dwell there shall hear my word.|''[[Quenta Silmarillion]]'', "[[Of the Return of the Noldor]]"}}

King Thingol's relations with the Noldor were strained, and grew worse decades later when he learned the truth of the [[Kinslaying at Alqualondë]]. Thingol banned the use of [[Quenya]] in his lands, which led to Sindarin being the common Elven tongue in Middle-earth. The King of Doriath refused to aid the Noldor in the war against Morgoth, and took little part in the ongoing struggle.<ref>{{S|Noldor}}</ref>

=== Quest for the Silmaril ===
[[File:Felix Sotomayor - Beren at Thingol's Court.jpg|thumb|''Beren at Thingol's Court'' by [[Felix Sotomayor]]]]
{{Quote|If thou fearest neither spell, wall nor weapons, as thou saist, then go fetch me a Silmaril from the crown of Morgoth. Then we will give jewel for jewel, but thou shalt win the fairer: Lúthien of the First-born and of the Gods.|Thingol, ''[[War of the Jewels]]'', "The Gray Annals"}}
Thingol and Melian had one child, a daughter named [[Lúthien]], said to be the fairest woman ever to live. Lúthien fell in love with a [[Men|Man]] named [[Beren]]. Thingol did not wish for the two to wed, as he valued his daughter very highly and disliked Men. As a bride-price he asked for a Silmaril from the crown of [[Morgoth]], thinking there was no way that Beren could fulfill this demand.<ref name="Beren">{{S|Beren}}</ref>

However, when Beren and Lúthien came back from [[Angband]], and when Beren showed him his missing hand which still held the Silmaril in the belly of [[Carcharoth]], he softened his heart towards him. Soon, though, Carcharoth in his anguish and rage from the Silmaril that burned his insides, broke through the Girdle of Melian and entered Doriath. In that hour, Thingol, along with Beren, [[Mablung]], [[Beleg]], and [[Huan]] the Hound of Valinor, began the [[Hunting of the Wolf]]. Carcharoth was finally slain by Huan, but both Huan and Beren died in the process. After that, Lúthien died also, and coming to the [[Halls of Mandos]] she begged [[Mandos]] that Beren be returned to life. However, it was beyond the power of Mandos to withhold the souls of Men from going beyond the [[Circles of the World]].<ref name=Beren/>

Therefore, [[Ilúvatar]], through [[Manwë]], offered Lúthien and Beren the opportunity to live again, but with Lúthien sharing the [[Gift of Men]]. She agreed, and they both came back to life and lived out the remainder of their second lives at [[Tol Galen]], far from the sight of any other mortals.<ref name=Beren/>

=== Fostering of Túrin ===
Thingol adopted as a son a young Man named [[Túrin]], son of [[Húrin]] and akin to Beren himself, who was sent to Doriath when he was seven years old.<ref>{{CH|4}}</ref> When he grew up, he was permitted to join Beleg Cúthalion on the marches of Doriath, fighting the Orcs of Morgoth.<ref name="Turin">{{S|Turin}}</ref><ref>{{CH|5}}</ref>

Túrin accidentally caused the death of [[Saeros]], one of Thingol's counselors who had provoked and attacked him. Before he could be either punished or forgiven he fled. Thingol however gave Beleg a leave to seek out his friend, who in the meantime had joined a [[Gaurwaith|band of outlaws]].<ref>{{CH|6}}</ref> Telling to Thingol that Túrin did not wish to return, Thingol allowed Beleg to go and join his friend and gave him the black sword [[Anglachel]] that [[Eöl]] had forged and given to Thingol<ref>{{S|Maeglin}}</ref> in tribute.<ref name=Turin/>

=== Nauglamír and death ===
[[File:Peter Xavier Price - Thingol's End.jpg|thumb|right|''Thingol's End'' by [[Peter Xavier Price]]]]
Sometime after Túrin's tragic death, Húrin, now an old man released from Morgoth's captivity, was allowed to enter Menegroth. In anger, he threw the [[Nauglamír]], the treasure of [[Nargothrond]], before King Thingol, bitterly "thanking" him for aiding his son. Melian pierced through Húrin's madness and grief; shamed by his actions, he offered the Nauglamír to Thingol sincerely and left Menegroth a broken man.<ref name="Doriath">{{S|Doriath}}</ref>

At that time, a desire came into Thingol's heart to take the Nauglamír and place the Silmaril into it, thus melding together two of the greatest creations made by the Elves and the Dwarves. He hired skilled [[Dwarves of Nogrod|Dwarven craftsmen]], but they secretly desired to possess both treasures for themselves. After their work was completed, the Dwarves refused to give the Nauglamír to Thingol, claiming that he had no right to own the priceless necklace made by their ancestors. Realizing that they were coveting the Silmaril, Thingol became infuriated and insulted them. The Dwarves were angered by his harsh words and killed him. This led to the [[battle in the Thousand Caves|sacking of Menegroth]] and the eventual [[Second Kinslaying|destruction of Doriath]], which scattered its people.<ref name=Doriath/>

== Characteristics ==
His hair was grey as silver, his eyes were as stars, and he was the tallest of all the Elven-folk.<ref>{{MR|P3I3}}</ref>{{rp|§27}}

== Etymology ==
{{Pronounce|Elwe Singollo.mp3|Ardamir}}
'''Thingol''' was his [[epessë|anessë]] (given name) in [[Sindarin]], which means "Greycloak"<ref>{{MR|P3II3a}}, p. 217</ref> or Greymantle.<ref name=Thingol>{{S|Sindar}}</ref> The first element of the name is ''thin(d)'' ("grey").<ref>{{S|Elements}}, entry ''thin(d)''</ref><ref>{{PE|17}}, entry Q '''sinda''', p. 72</ref> Paul Strack suggests that the second element ''gol'' is the [[lenition|lenited]] form of ''coll'' ("cloak", "mantle").<ref>{{webcite|author=Paul Strack|articleurl=https://www.eldamo.org/content/words/word-3589954001.html|articlename=S. ''Thingol'' m.|website=Eldamo|accessed=10 May 2024}}</ref>

== Other names ==
[[Quenya]] tradition names him '''''Elwë''''' and ''[[Singollo]]'', for the [[Noldor]] pronounced his epessë as '''''Singollo'''''.{{fact}}

His first name, ''Elwë'', means "star-man" and contains ''[[el]]'' and ''[[-we]]''.

'''''Elwë Þindicollo''''' or '''Sindicollo''' was the ancient name of King Thingol; when he settled in [[Doriath]] with [[Melian]], he took the [[Sindarin]] form of his name, ''Elu Thingol''.

== Genealogy ==
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | ENL |y| ENE | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |ENL=[[Enel]] ''awoke in {{YT|1050}}''|ENE=[[Enelyë]] ''awoke in {{YT|1050}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | |D|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|7| |}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | |:| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |:| |}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | |:| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |:| |}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | |,|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|.| | | |:| |}}
{{familytree | | | MEL |y| THI | | OLW | | | | | | | | | | ELM | | CIR |MEL=[[Melian]]|THI='''THINGOL''' ''d. {{FA|503}}''|OLW=[[Olwë]] ''b. {{YT}}''|ELM=[[Elmo]] ''b. {{YT}}''|CIR=[[Círdan]] ''b. {{YT}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | |!| | | |,|-|^|-|.| | | | | | | | | |!| | | | | |}}
{{familytree | BER |y| LUT | | SON | | EAW |y| FIN | | | | GLD | | | | |SON=''unnamed sons''|LUT=[[Lúthien]] ''{{YT|1200}} - {{FA|503}}''|EAW=[[Eärwen]] ''b. {{YT}}''|GLD=[[Galadhon]] ''b. {{YT}}''|FIN=[[Finarfin]] ''b. {{YT|1230}}''|BER=[[Beren]] ''{{FA|432}} - {{FA|503|n}}''}}
{{familytree | | | |!| |,|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|v|-|^|-|.| | | |,|-|^|-|.| | | |}}
{{familytree | | | |!| FND | | ANG | | AEG | | GAL |~| CEL | | GLT |GAL=[[Galadriel]] ''b. {{YT|1362}}''|CEL=[[Celeborn]] ''b. {{YT}}''|GLT=[[Galathil]] ''b. {{YT}}''|FND=[[Finrod]] ''{{YT|1300}} - {{FA|465}}''|ANG=[[Angrod]] ''d. {{FA|455}}''|AEG=[[Aegnor]] ''d. {{FA|455}}''}}
{{familytree | | | |!| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |!| | | |}}
{{familytree | | | DIO |~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|y|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~| NIM |DIO=[[Dior]] ''{{FA|470}} - {{FA|506|n}}''|NIM=[[Nimloth of Doriath|Nimloth]] ''d. {{FA|506}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | |,|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|.| | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | ELD | | ELN | | ELW | | | | | | | | | |ELD=[[Eluréd]] ''{{FA|500}} - c. {{FA|507|n}}''|ELN=[[Elurín]] ''{{FA|500}} - c. {{FA|507|n}}''|ELW=[[Elwing]] ''b. {{FA|503}}''}}
{{familytree/end}}

== Other versions of the legendarium ==
{{expansion}}
In ''[[The Book of Lost Tales Part One]]'' his [[Qenya]] name is ''Linwë Tinto'' or ''Tinwë Linto'' and his [[Gnomish]] name is ''Tinwelint''.<ref>{{LT1|Appendix}}, entry "Tinwë Linto, Tinwelint"</ref> He was led away from [[Solosimpi]], his people, by the beautiful music of [[Melian|Wendelin]], and never returned to them. [[Ellu]] took his place as their leader.<ref>{{LT1|V}}</ref> In a crossed out note, only Tinwelint's children, [[Tinfang Warble|Timpinen]] and [[Lúthien|Tinúviel]], returned later to the Eldar.<ref>{{LT1|IVn}}, note 1</ref>

In ''[[The Book of Lost Tales Part Two]]'', Tinwelint found Gwendeling by following the song of her nightingales. He stopped to listen for what he thought was a moment, although in reality it lasted many years. He came upon her in the forest, where she lay listening also to the nightingales. Thinking her very beautiful, he began to approach her, but she rose and ran away laughing. He then fell into a deep sleep while she remained, and kept watch over him a long time. His people, who had long ago departed to Valinor, were forgotten by Tinwelint when he at last awoke and found her still nearby. Eventually the two were wed.<ref name=lt2i/>

Tinwë Linto/Tinwelint reigned with Wendelin/Gwendeling ([[Vëannë]] and [[Ausir (boy)|Ausir]], children talking to [[Eriol]], argued about their names) over the Lost Elves of [[Doriath|Artanor]]. Tolkien considered also the name ''[[Ellu]]'' for him.<ref name=lt2i>{{LT2|I}}</ref> His children were Tinúviel and [[Daeron|Dairon]].<ref name=lt2i/>

{{references|notes}}

{{seq-start}}
{{seq-head
| race=sindar
| house=Founded the [[House of Elwë]]
| born=Between {{YT|1050}} and {{YT|1102|n}}
| died={{FA|502}}
}}
{{seq
| prev=''[[Enel]], as Chieftain of the [[Nelyar]]''
| pvac=None
| list=King of the [[Teleri]]
| dates={{YT|1105}} - {{YT|1132|n}} (with [[Olwë]])
| next=[[Olwë]]
}}
{{seq
| prev=Title established
| pvac=None
| list=1st [[King of Doriath|King]] of [[Doriath]]
| dates={{YT|1152}} – {{FA|503}}
| next=[[Dior]]
}}
{{seq-end}}

[[Category:Calaquendi]]
[[Category:Characters in The Book of Lost Tales]]
[[Category:Characters in The Children of Húrin]]
[[Category:Characters in The Silmarillion]]
[[Category:First Age characters]]
[[Category:House of Elwë]]
[[Category:Ilkorindi]]
[[Category:Ilkorin names]]
[[Category:Nelyar]]
[[Category:Rulers in Beleriand]]
[[Category:Rulers in the Great Lands]]
[[Category:Sindar]]
[[Category:Sindarin names]]
[[de:Elwe]]
[[fi:Thingol]]
[[fr:encyclo/personnages/elfes/teleri/sindar/elu thingol]]

Talk:Misconceptions

2025-02-17T16:00:15Z

Erendis: /* Male Elves have short hair */ Reply

Talk:Misconceptions

2025-02-14T19:54:19Z

Erendis: /* Male Elves have short hair */

__TOC__

I salvaged some non-trivial examples from an recent version of [[fanon]] article. Since we have already other debates liked "mistakes in Tolkien's works", we can tolerate this article too. This I consider also useful because I have also fallen victim to such misconceptions. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 20:46, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

:I agree. I simply removed all of it from fanon for the sake of ease. An article is good (maybe rename it though to have some consistency.

:Now I'm off. Happy new year, all. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 22:35, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

::I think if this article gets a bit more polished, it might be useful to link to this on the main page.
::Happy new year, Ederchil~& Sage. [[User:Grond|Grond]] 22:39, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
:::Maybe we can add also something about Lurtz, Orodreth and Gil-Galad ancestery...and uhm...the location of Dorwinion.

''Midden-Aarde Essays'' (a book of essays from Tolkien's work, made by a friend of my, what he is soon gonna publish in Dutch) says something about that in the chapter "Mysteries van de Hobbit, Dorwinion" ("Engimas of the Hobbit, Dorwinion") --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 15:54, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

:Actually, [[Dorwinion]]'s location is not really a mystery - Tolkien placed it on the Western bank of the [[Sea of Rhûn]]. How is Lurtz a misconception? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 16:00, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

::About your ½ rigth. It was only not Tolkien who placed there but his illustrator, latter Tolkien agreed with it. Many people think that it was [[Lurtz]] who killed Boromir while many [[Uruks]] did it.

::This comes from the chapter "Dorwinion":

''Uit de tekst van ‘De Hobbit’ is dan ook niet te achterhalen waar Dorwinion juist lag en wie er woonde. Desondanks is de ligging van het land op een andere manier duidelijk geworden. Pauline Baynes, de favoriete illustrator van Tolkien , zette Dorwinion in 1969 op de landkaart. Ze plaatste het land aan de monding van de Running, aan de noordwestelijke oevers van de Zee van Rhûn (zie kaart).''

''Hoewel Tolkien bezwaar had tegen sommige andere plaatsen die Pauline Baynes op de kaart gezet had, verklaarde hij zich wel akkoord met de ligging van Dorwinion. En ondanks het feit dat de Zee van Rhûn niet de locatie was die Tolkien oorspronkelijk in gedachten had, is het land sindsdien wel op die plaats blijven liggen. Christopher Tolkien merkt hetzelfde op in ‘The Lays of Beleriand’:''

“Dorwinion is marked on the decorated map by Pauline Baynes, as a region on the North-western shores of the Sea of Rhun. It must be presumed that this, like other names on that map, was communicated to her by my father, but its placing seems surprising.”

--[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 16:12, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

:Dorwinion dan maar wel. Maar Lurtz komt alleen maar uit de film. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 16:24, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

==Cleanup/Rewrite==
Going through the different "misconceptions":
#Definition of First Age; Third Age "of the Sun": keep.
#The Arkenstone was a Silmaril: keep
#Elrond visits Elros in Númenor: what part of the text implies such a thing? With the current wording it seems the "misconception" is created to highlight a trivial abandoned concept.
#Arwen, the lastborn of the Elves: keep. It was portrayed sort of like that in the movies
#Legolas's age: omit, already at Legolas
#Legolas hair color: see previous
#Names of the Nazgûl: remove or rewrite
#A female Nazgûl: remove or merge with 7.
#Mrs. Thranduil: there are so many characters whose mother's name is unknown, it's pointless to single out Legolas. Also, if this stays, can we at least tell the reader what the name is?
#The War in the North: pointless. Maybe inspired by BfMeII, but I'm pretty sure the promotional material for the game explicitly mentioned it was fiction.
#The shape of Middle-earth: we can keep this, but with a rewrite
#Pointed ears: why is it under misconceptions if it's pointed out (npi) that it's true?
#Hobbit feet: huge? rephrase
#Déagol/Sméagol relationship: keep. Maybe also point out that they weren't Hobbits, but ancestors of Hobbits.
#Gollum's age: pointless. Nothing in the text suggests such a thing.
#Tengwar on Sting: pointless. We might change this to "Bilbo named Sting when he found it", because that's what happened in the RB movie, the 2003 game and I believe the radio plays too.
#Saruman, the creator of Uruk-hai: rewrite.
#Dorwinion: keep

#Add: in light of Last Waterbender's recent edit to [[Bregalad]], we should also explain here that "beam" means "tree" here (cf. German ''baum'', Dutch ''boom'', Frisian ''beam''), not "a beam of light", and note something about translators messing up (Schuchart, for one, did).

Any other ideas? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 17:52, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
:As I agree that most of your points are not really misconceptions, I removed some of them (and left others). I also removed the "shape of middle-earth" thing since it doesn't seem as a misconception to me. The map was drawn by Tolkien; it is not said that it was replaced by another map; nor it is contradicted by the Silmarillion. I also collected some more from other articles. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 08:45, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

==Legolas' hair?==
The article: "However, in The Fellowship of the Ring it is stated that Legolas' hair was "dark", and dark brown or black hair was most common among the Sindar."
:Is it so? Here I would like to see the sources, so that the misconceptions would not be replaced by other misconceptions. What it comes to Legolas' dark ''hair'', I suppose the source in the ''Fellowship'' is this: "His head was dark, crowned with sharp white stars that glittered in the black pools of the sky behind." ({{FR|II9}}). But does this really tell anything about the colour of his hair or even of his skin? I suppose that we can only say, that when Frodo saw Legolas standing above him, the figure of the Elf was dark against the sky. – The source for the dark hair among the Sindar in general would also be nice to have. --Tik 11:47, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

==Buckland==

I'd suggest taking out the reference to Buckland or changing it. Early editions stated explicitly that Buckland was added to the Shire, and I'm not sure it's clear that the change in recent editions is the one Tolkien would have made, so I wouldn't call it a misconception. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] 20:15, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

:The semicolon was present already in the second edition (1966). -- [[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 08:41, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

==Sex of Nazgul==

The current text says <<with their consistent references as "Men" and "kings", although it could be argued that "Men" includes women>>. The part about "men" including women can be pretty much assumed - that term is usually used in place of "humankind", not as a plural of "man" in the sense of "male". Like in https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Men. Would emphasize that, as to make clear that Tolkien hasn't given us any information about gender here. Given how the civilizations feel, a woman is not that likely, but not impossible either, but if we don't want to speculate, the fact is that no information in that regard is given.

:Honestly while we cannot definitively say that all of the Nazgul were men, we cannot definitively say they weren't either. Furthermore, in the case of the Numenorians cited in the article, the three Ruling Queens are specifically referred to as such in the text. I think if Tolkien had wanted there to be a woman among the Ringwraiths, he would have included an explicit mention of a queen or sorceress or whatever among their ranks. I'm tempted to remove that part from the article, but I admit we can't 100% say one way or the other. --[[User:Turiannerevarine|Turiannerevarine]] 10:47, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

::I'm actually not sure if this part of the article should even be here. I do not know what exactly I would label this part as, to be honest, but I do acknowledge that it is a least a valid point, so I want other people to weigh in on this. Personally I think at the very least break it out from the names of the Nazgul to its own section for better page formatting.--[[User:Turiannerevarine|Turiannerevarine]] 23:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

:::The part about the sex of the Nazgul should stay. In Middle-earth Role Playing (MERP) publications there is a female numenorean nazgul called Adunaphel and the names and the Sex of these nazgul exist on several sites on the internet. A lot of older Tolkien Fans are familiar with those names. Tolkien legt the question open. Tolkien also explicitly mentions the Rings for the elven "Kings" in the Ring verse in The Lord of the Rings, but Galadriel is one of the bearers of the Rings for the elves and she is female and is the de facto queen of Lorien although she does not call herself so according to The History of Galadriel and Celeborn in UT. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhorahil]] 14:20, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

==Order==
I can't judge the rewriting, but this needs some kind of order, isn't it? Also, maybe a subsection for misconceptions created by the movies? --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 21:25, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

:It probably does, but I am not sure what kind of order it would need. Maybe by book?[[User:Turiannerevarine|Turiannerevarine]] 23:01, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

::I'd vote for alphabetical order. --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 17:08, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

:::I think that if we separated the misconceptions by book or movie, it would be easier for people to find what they are looking for. --[[User:Ancalagon the Black|Ancalagon the Black]] 18:11, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

::::Page has been reordered according to book/adapation (includes Jackson movies as well as other adaptations) and then alphabetically within the individual sections.[[User:Turiannerevarine|Turiannerevarine]] 22:30, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

:::::Perfect! --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 08:02, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

=="Age of the Sun"==

What about adding the new section about the common misconception that the First Age as if began with the first sunrise? -- [[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 07:59, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

:Great idea! [[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] ([[User talk:Hyarion|talk]]) 03:52, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

==Do We Need This Article?==

The entire point of this wiki is to provide information on Tolkien's lore, so I am not sure how important this is. Also, I've never met anyone who claimed definitively that the Arkenstone is a Silmaril, and it seems firmly in the fan-theory category (albeit, I admit, a rather weak one).
Also, I am not sure if we can fairly place Gil-Galad son of Fingon in here. Yes, the final version has Orodreth as his father, but that does not change the fact that ''a'' version had Fingon (I believe one also had Finrod, if I remember correctly). Gil-Galad's parentage is not mentioned in any writing published in Tolkien's lifetime, so I am not convinced it needs to be present. Following this pattern, we might add "Galadriel was involved in the Noldorin rebellion", since it is fairly clear Tolkien intended to rewrite her history so that she was not.
Also, this article states, "The Ring that Celebrimbor gave to Durin was a notable exception, being the only one of the Seven or the Nine purposely intended for a non-Elf." I am not sure this is entirely true. In the Unfinished Tales, it is stated, "There Sauron took the Nine Rings and other lesser works of the Mírdain; but the Seven and the Three he could not find", which seems to suggest that at least one point, Tolkien considered Celebrimbor himself to have given out all Seven to the different Dwarf lords himself, nor, as far as I can tell, does Appendix A "On Dúrin's Folk" ever go against this idea.

[[User:SingingOrc|SingingOrc]] ([[User talk:SingingOrc|talk]]) [[User:SingingOrc|SingingOrc]] ([[User talk:SingingOrc|talk]]) 18:40, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

:I agree. Some of the 'misconceptions' here are simply alternate versions of (at least in some instances) a very contradictory and muddled textual history. [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 16:08, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

==Deletion of "Merging Buckland"==

This is not a misconception. Foster and others based it on the original text of the first and second editions. Hammond and Scull added a semicolon to remove the inconsistency. See [[Possible_inconsistencies_in_the_legendarium#Addition_of_the_Westmarch_(and_Buckland)_to_the_Shire]]. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 15:40, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

:Are you sure that it was indeed Hammond & Scull who added a semicolon in the sentence? Just check out the second edition (1966) by yourself: https://archive.org/details/fellowshipofring0000unse_l5a0 -- [[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 16:32, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
:Or https://archive.org/details/lordofrings0000unse_y8h4/ -- [[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 16:35, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

::Very interesting! Thanks for pointing that out. Here are two from Houghton Mifflin with no semicolon: [https://books.google.com/books?id=_6onAQAAMAAJ&q=%22east+and+west+marches+the+buckland%22&dq=%22east+and+west+marches+the+buckland%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiKm6eg2auFAxUc8MkDHd9KBJYQ6AF6BAgGEAI] [https://books.google.com/books?id=UEmplIa6aOIC&q=%22outside+the+farthings+were%22&dq=%22outside+the+farthings+were%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjn29q8w6uFAxVG_8kDHSXKCs8Q6AF6BAgNEAI]

::So clearly I was wrong to say Hammond and Scull added the semicolon. Do you know the history? Was it lost in the American editions or added at some point to the British ones?

::Anyway, I'd say the article should make it clear that the belief was caused by the lack of a semicolon. Whether it was a misconception depends on whether Tolkien put the semicolon there, which seems likely. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 18:38, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

==Tom Bombadil in the Old Forest==

While I'm here, how about a section on the misconception that Tom Bombadil lives in the Old Forest and even that it constitutes his entire country? I see that now and then on Quora (where I’ve been correcting it). Here are some examples from a long article on Tom. “His realm is not just '''the Old Forest (though he lives in it''' by choice). His realm is Arda, where he was placed first before all other entities, creations and things.” And “If Tom and '''his domain in the Old Forest''' is more secure than even Doriath under Melian's protection and more secret or unassailable than Gondolin, either way, Tom further demonstrates he is more powerful than Morgoth.” <nowiki>[https://thenine1.quora.com/On-the-Entity-of-Tom-Bombadil-Ea-s-Deus-Ex-Terra]</nowiki>

By the way, I don't agree with that writer's conclusions either. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 21:02, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

:I don't understand. Tom Bombadil obviously does live in the Old Forest. What is the misconception here? --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 17:45, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

::See the paragraph starting "Just as they felt their feet slowing down" near the end of the chapter "The Old Forest" and the following paragraph, which make it explicit that the hobbits left the forest and still have considerable walking to do to get to Tom's house. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 19:35, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
:::Hmm, you're right, the house is on a bare hill just ''outside'' the forest. I didn't remember that. The lede of [[Tom Bombadil]] needs to be corrected too (it says "in the depths of the Old Forest"). --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 04:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
::::OK, I think we've got enough reason to add this topic. I just fixed the lead of [[Tom Bombadil]], by the way. What do people think of adding the previous version as a reference to how widespread the misconception is? [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 17:12, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

:::::I added the location of his house to the article. There are also Web sites that say LOTRO and Minecraft: Middle-earth put Tom's house in the Old Forest. If people who can check those games or others want to add them to the references, I think that would be good. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 18:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

:::And you're right, of course, that Bombadil's realm comprises the Barrow-Downs as well as the forest, and apparently the surrounding country as far north as the East Road. --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 04:38, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
::::And if you believe "[[Bombadil Goes Boating]]" (which I do), it extends west and a little south to parts of Buckland and the Marish at least as far as [[Farmer Maggot]]'s farm. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 17:12, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::Bombadil Goes Boating is ''not'' Canon, IMO, but we know from FOTR that Bombadil knows Maggot and has talked to him, so he presumably comes to the Marish sometimes. --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 03:26, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::Well, you could imagine that Maggot visited Tom's house or something.
::::::To clarify what I wrote, I don't believe that the events in "Bombadil Goes Boating" necessarily occurred, but I am willing to rely on the implication that Tom visited Maggot, especially with the corroboration that he knows Maggot. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 21:39, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Another one, which I believe Robert Foster believed, is that Tom in "[[The Stone Troll]]" is based on Tom Bombadil, though they have nothing in common but the name. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 04:56, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

== Male Elves have short hair ==

1) What is the texte source for Elwë/Thingol's hair length ? I haven't found it in the given sources. I've just found in HOME 5 QS § 27 that "Elwë was their lord and his hair was long and white", but this is for a Tolkien's writting time when Olwë is called "Elwë" (Olwë has got white hair, Thingol has got grey silver hair)

2) Maybe add that Beleg (and Gwindor ?) have long dark hair ? cf Tolkien's "Fangorn" painting.

3) "And regarding Finwë and the other Noldor, "Ingwë had curling golden hair. Finwë (and Míriel) had long dark hair, so had Fëanor and all the Noldor, save by intermarriage which did not often take place between clans, [...]. Melian was dark, and so was Lúthien." from The Nature of Middle-earth - "Hair," Suggesting that the Noldor, including Finwë had long hair. "
=> I'm not agree about "Suggesting that the Noldor, including Finwë had long hair." : this text passage is clearly about hair colour, not length. Intermarriage does not affect hair length, only colour. So, from this text, we can say that Finwë has long hair, but not the others.

(the next passage suggests more clearly this fact)

[[User:Erendis|Erendis]] ([[User talk:Erendis|talk]]) 19:30, 14 February 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Misconceptions

2025-02-14T19:53:25Z

Erendis: /* Male Elves have short hair */

__TOC__

I salvaged some non-trivial examples from an recent version of [[fanon]] article. Since we have already other debates liked "mistakes in Tolkien's works", we can tolerate this article too. This I consider also useful because I have also fallen victim to such misconceptions. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 20:46, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

:I agree. I simply removed all of it from fanon for the sake of ease. An article is good (maybe rename it though to have some consistency.

:Now I'm off. Happy new year, all. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 22:35, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

::I think if this article gets a bit more polished, it might be useful to link to this on the main page.
::Happy new year, Ederchil~& Sage. [[User:Grond|Grond]] 22:39, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
:::Maybe we can add also something about Lurtz, Orodreth and Gil-Galad ancestery...and uhm...the location of Dorwinion.

''Midden-Aarde Essays'' (a book of essays from Tolkien's work, made by a friend of my, what he is soon gonna publish in Dutch) says something about that in the chapter "Mysteries van de Hobbit, Dorwinion" ("Engimas of the Hobbit, Dorwinion") --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 15:54, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

:Actually, [[Dorwinion]]'s location is not really a mystery - Tolkien placed it on the Western bank of the [[Sea of Rhûn]]. How is Lurtz a misconception? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 16:00, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

::About your ½ rigth. It was only not Tolkien who placed there but his illustrator, latter Tolkien agreed with it. Many people think that it was [[Lurtz]] who killed Boromir while many [[Uruks]] did it.

::This comes from the chapter "Dorwinion":

''Uit de tekst van ‘De Hobbit’ is dan ook niet te achterhalen waar Dorwinion juist lag en wie er woonde. Desondanks is de ligging van het land op een andere manier duidelijk geworden. Pauline Baynes, de favoriete illustrator van Tolkien , zette Dorwinion in 1969 op de landkaart. Ze plaatste het land aan de monding van de Running, aan de noordwestelijke oevers van de Zee van Rhûn (zie kaart).''

''Hoewel Tolkien bezwaar had tegen sommige andere plaatsen die Pauline Baynes op de kaart gezet had, verklaarde hij zich wel akkoord met de ligging van Dorwinion. En ondanks het feit dat de Zee van Rhûn niet de locatie was die Tolkien oorspronkelijk in gedachten had, is het land sindsdien wel op die plaats blijven liggen. Christopher Tolkien merkt hetzelfde op in ‘The Lays of Beleriand’:''

“Dorwinion is marked on the decorated map by Pauline Baynes, as a region on the North-western shores of the Sea of Rhun. It must be presumed that this, like other names on that map, was communicated to her by my father, but its placing seems surprising.”

--[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 16:12, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

:Dorwinion dan maar wel. Maar Lurtz komt alleen maar uit de film. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 16:24, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

==Cleanup/Rewrite==
Going through the different "misconceptions":
#Definition of First Age; Third Age "of the Sun": keep.
#The Arkenstone was a Silmaril: keep
#Elrond visits Elros in Númenor: what part of the text implies such a thing? With the current wording it seems the "misconception" is created to highlight a trivial abandoned concept.
#Arwen, the lastborn of the Elves: keep. It was portrayed sort of like that in the movies
#Legolas's age: omit, already at Legolas
#Legolas hair color: see previous
#Names of the Nazgûl: remove or rewrite
#A female Nazgûl: remove or merge with 7.
#Mrs. Thranduil: there are so many characters whose mother's name is unknown, it's pointless to single out Legolas. Also, if this stays, can we at least tell the reader what the name is?
#The War in the North: pointless. Maybe inspired by BfMeII, but I'm pretty sure the promotional material for the game explicitly mentioned it was fiction.
#The shape of Middle-earth: we can keep this, but with a rewrite
#Pointed ears: why is it under misconceptions if it's pointed out (npi) that it's true?
#Hobbit feet: huge? rephrase
#Déagol/Sméagol relationship: keep. Maybe also point out that they weren't Hobbits, but ancestors of Hobbits.
#Gollum's age: pointless. Nothing in the text suggests such a thing.
#Tengwar on Sting: pointless. We might change this to "Bilbo named Sting when he found it", because that's what happened in the RB movie, the 2003 game and I believe the radio plays too.
#Saruman, the creator of Uruk-hai: rewrite.
#Dorwinion: keep

#Add: in light of Last Waterbender's recent edit to [[Bregalad]], we should also explain here that "beam" means "tree" here (cf. German ''baum'', Dutch ''boom'', Frisian ''beam''), not "a beam of light", and note something about translators messing up (Schuchart, for one, did).

Any other ideas? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 17:52, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
:As I agree that most of your points are not really misconceptions, I removed some of them (and left others). I also removed the "shape of middle-earth" thing since it doesn't seem as a misconception to me. The map was drawn by Tolkien; it is not said that it was replaced by another map; nor it is contradicted by the Silmarillion. I also collected some more from other articles. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 08:45, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

==Legolas' hair?==
The article: "However, in The Fellowship of the Ring it is stated that Legolas' hair was "dark", and dark brown or black hair was most common among the Sindar."
:Is it so? Here I would like to see the sources, so that the misconceptions would not be replaced by other misconceptions. What it comes to Legolas' dark ''hair'', I suppose the source in the ''Fellowship'' is this: "His head was dark, crowned with sharp white stars that glittered in the black pools of the sky behind." ({{FR|II9}}). But does this really tell anything about the colour of his hair or even of his skin? I suppose that we can only say, that when Frodo saw Legolas standing above him, the figure of the Elf was dark against the sky. – The source for the dark hair among the Sindar in general would also be nice to have. --Tik 11:47, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

==Buckland==

I'd suggest taking out the reference to Buckland or changing it. Early editions stated explicitly that Buckland was added to the Shire, and I'm not sure it's clear that the change in recent editions is the one Tolkien would have made, so I wouldn't call it a misconception. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] 20:15, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

:The semicolon was present already in the second edition (1966). -- [[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 08:41, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

==Sex of Nazgul==

The current text says <<with their consistent references as "Men" and "kings", although it could be argued that "Men" includes women>>. The part about "men" including women can be pretty much assumed - that term is usually used in place of "humankind", not as a plural of "man" in the sense of "male". Like in https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Men. Would emphasize that, as to make clear that Tolkien hasn't given us any information about gender here. Given how the civilizations feel, a woman is not that likely, but not impossible either, but if we don't want to speculate, the fact is that no information in that regard is given.

:Honestly while we cannot definitively say that all of the Nazgul were men, we cannot definitively say they weren't either. Furthermore, in the case of the Numenorians cited in the article, the three Ruling Queens are specifically referred to as such in the text. I think if Tolkien had wanted there to be a woman among the Ringwraiths, he would have included an explicit mention of a queen or sorceress or whatever among their ranks. I'm tempted to remove that part from the article, but I admit we can't 100% say one way or the other. --[[User:Turiannerevarine|Turiannerevarine]] 10:47, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

::I'm actually not sure if this part of the article should even be here. I do not know what exactly I would label this part as, to be honest, but I do acknowledge that it is a least a valid point, so I want other people to weigh in on this. Personally I think at the very least break it out from the names of the Nazgul to its own section for better page formatting.--[[User:Turiannerevarine|Turiannerevarine]] 23:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

:::The part about the sex of the Nazgul should stay. In Middle-earth Role Playing (MERP) publications there is a female numenorean nazgul called Adunaphel and the names and the Sex of these nazgul exist on several sites on the internet. A lot of older Tolkien Fans are familiar with those names. Tolkien legt the question open. Tolkien also explicitly mentions the Rings for the elven "Kings" in the Ring verse in The Lord of the Rings, but Galadriel is one of the bearers of the Rings for the elves and she is female and is the de facto queen of Lorien although she does not call herself so according to The History of Galadriel and Celeborn in UT. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhorahil]] 14:20, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

==Order==
I can't judge the rewriting, but this needs some kind of order, isn't it? Also, maybe a subsection for misconceptions created by the movies? --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 21:25, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

:It probably does, but I am not sure what kind of order it would need. Maybe by book?[[User:Turiannerevarine|Turiannerevarine]] 23:01, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

::I'd vote for alphabetical order. --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 17:08, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

:::I think that if we separated the misconceptions by book or movie, it would be easier for people to find what they are looking for. --[[User:Ancalagon the Black|Ancalagon the Black]] 18:11, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

::::Page has been reordered according to book/adapation (includes Jackson movies as well as other adaptations) and then alphabetically within the individual sections.[[User:Turiannerevarine|Turiannerevarine]] 22:30, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

:::::Perfect! --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 08:02, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

=="Age of the Sun"==

What about adding the new section about the common misconception that the First Age as if began with the first sunrise? -- [[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 07:59, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

:Great idea! [[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] ([[User talk:Hyarion|talk]]) 03:52, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

==Do We Need This Article?==

The entire point of this wiki is to provide information on Tolkien's lore, so I am not sure how important this is. Also, I've never met anyone who claimed definitively that the Arkenstone is a Silmaril, and it seems firmly in the fan-theory category (albeit, I admit, a rather weak one).
Also, I am not sure if we can fairly place Gil-Galad son of Fingon in here. Yes, the final version has Orodreth as his father, but that does not change the fact that ''a'' version had Fingon (I believe one also had Finrod, if I remember correctly). Gil-Galad's parentage is not mentioned in any writing published in Tolkien's lifetime, so I am not convinced it needs to be present. Following this pattern, we might add "Galadriel was involved in the Noldorin rebellion", since it is fairly clear Tolkien intended to rewrite her history so that she was not.
Also, this article states, "The Ring that Celebrimbor gave to Durin was a notable exception, being the only one of the Seven or the Nine purposely intended for a non-Elf." I am not sure this is entirely true. In the Unfinished Tales, it is stated, "There Sauron took the Nine Rings and other lesser works of the Mírdain; but the Seven and the Three he could not find", which seems to suggest that at least one point, Tolkien considered Celebrimbor himself to have given out all Seven to the different Dwarf lords himself, nor, as far as I can tell, does Appendix A "On Dúrin's Folk" ever go against this idea.

[[User:SingingOrc|SingingOrc]] ([[User talk:SingingOrc|talk]]) [[User:SingingOrc|SingingOrc]] ([[User talk:SingingOrc|talk]]) 18:40, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

:I agree. Some of the 'misconceptions' here are simply alternate versions of (at least in some instances) a very contradictory and muddled textual history. [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 16:08, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

==Deletion of "Merging Buckland"==

This is not a misconception. Foster and others based it on the original text of the first and second editions. Hammond and Scull added a semicolon to remove the inconsistency. See [[Possible_inconsistencies_in_the_legendarium#Addition_of_the_Westmarch_(and_Buckland)_to_the_Shire]]. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 15:40, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

:Are you sure that it was indeed Hammond & Scull who added a semicolon in the sentence? Just check out the second edition (1966) by yourself: https://archive.org/details/fellowshipofring0000unse_l5a0 -- [[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 16:32, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
:Or https://archive.org/details/lordofrings0000unse_y8h4/ -- [[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 16:35, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

::Very interesting! Thanks for pointing that out. Here are two from Houghton Mifflin with no semicolon: [https://books.google.com/books?id=_6onAQAAMAAJ&q=%22east+and+west+marches+the+buckland%22&dq=%22east+and+west+marches+the+buckland%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiKm6eg2auFAxUc8MkDHd9KBJYQ6AF6BAgGEAI] [https://books.google.com/books?id=UEmplIa6aOIC&q=%22outside+the+farthings+were%22&dq=%22outside+the+farthings+were%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjn29q8w6uFAxVG_8kDHSXKCs8Q6AF6BAgNEAI]

::So clearly I was wrong to say Hammond and Scull added the semicolon. Do you know the history? Was it lost in the American editions or added at some point to the British ones?

::Anyway, I'd say the article should make it clear that the belief was caused by the lack of a semicolon. Whether it was a misconception depends on whether Tolkien put the semicolon there, which seems likely. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 18:38, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

==Tom Bombadil in the Old Forest==

While I'm here, how about a section on the misconception that Tom Bombadil lives in the Old Forest and even that it constitutes his entire country? I see that now and then on Quora (where I’ve been correcting it). Here are some examples from a long article on Tom. “His realm is not just '''the Old Forest (though he lives in it''' by choice). His realm is Arda, where he was placed first before all other entities, creations and things.” And “If Tom and '''his domain in the Old Forest''' is more secure than even Doriath under Melian's protection and more secret or unassailable than Gondolin, either way, Tom further demonstrates he is more powerful than Morgoth.” <nowiki>[https://thenine1.quora.com/On-the-Entity-of-Tom-Bombadil-Ea-s-Deus-Ex-Terra]</nowiki>

By the way, I don't agree with that writer's conclusions either. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 21:02, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

:I don't understand. Tom Bombadil obviously does live in the Old Forest. What is the misconception here? --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 17:45, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

::See the paragraph starting "Just as they felt their feet slowing down" near the end of the chapter "The Old Forest" and the following paragraph, which make it explicit that the hobbits left the forest and still have considerable walking to do to get to Tom's house. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 19:35, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
:::Hmm, you're right, the house is on a bare hill just ''outside'' the forest. I didn't remember that. The lede of [[Tom Bombadil]] needs to be corrected too (it says "in the depths of the Old Forest"). --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 04:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
::::OK, I think we've got enough reason to add this topic. I just fixed the lead of [[Tom Bombadil]], by the way. What do people think of adding the previous version as a reference to how widespread the misconception is? [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 17:12, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

:::::I added the location of his house to the article. There are also Web sites that say LOTRO and Minecraft: Middle-earth put Tom's house in the Old Forest. If people who can check those games or others want to add them to the references, I think that would be good. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 18:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

:::And you're right, of course, that Bombadil's realm comprises the Barrow-Downs as well as the forest, and apparently the surrounding country as far north as the East Road. --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 04:38, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
::::And if you believe "[[Bombadil Goes Boating]]" (which I do), it extends west and a little south to parts of Buckland and the Marish at least as far as [[Farmer Maggot]]'s farm. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 17:12, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::Bombadil Goes Boating is ''not'' Canon, IMO, but we know from FOTR that Bombadil knows Maggot and has talked to him, so he presumably comes to the Marish sometimes. --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 03:26, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::Well, you could imagine that Maggot visited Tom's house or something.
::::::To clarify what I wrote, I don't believe that the events in "Bombadil Goes Boating" necessarily occurred, but I am willing to rely on the implication that Tom visited Maggot, especially with the corroboration that he knows Maggot. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 21:39, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Another one, which I believe Robert Foster believed, is that Tom in "[[The Stone Troll]]" is based on Tom Bombadil, though they have nothing in common but the name. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 04:56, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

== Male Elves have short hair ==

1) What is the texte source faor Elwë/Thingol's hair length ? I haven't found it in the given sources. I've just found in HOME 5 QS § 27 that "Elwë was their lord and his hair was long and white", but this is for a Tolkien's writing time when Olwë is called "Elwë" (Olwë has got white hair, Thingol has got grey silver hair)

2) Maybe add that Beleg (and Gwindor ?) have long dark hair ? cf Tolkien's "Fangorn" painting.

3) "And regarding Finwë and the other Noldor, "Ingwë had curling golden hair. Finwë (and Míriel) had long dark hair, so had Fëanor and all the Noldor, save by intermarriage which did not often take place between clans, [...]. Melian was dark, and so was Lúthien." from The Nature of Middle-earth - "Hair," Suggesting that the Noldor, including Finwë had long hair. "
=> I'm not agree about "Suggesting that the Noldor, including Finwë had long hair." : this text passage is clearly about hair colour, not length. Intermarriage does not affect hair length, only colour. So, from this text, we can say that Finwë has long hair, but not the others.

(the next passage suggests more clearly this fact)

[[User:Erendis|Erendis]] ([[User talk:Erendis|talk]]) 19:30, 14 February 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Misconceptions

2025-02-14T19:45:09Z

Erendis: /* Male Elves have short hair */

__TOC__

I salvaged some non-trivial examples from an recent version of [[fanon]] article. Since we have already other debates liked "mistakes in Tolkien's works", we can tolerate this article too. This I consider also useful because I have also fallen victim to such misconceptions. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 20:46, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

:I agree. I simply removed all of it from fanon for the sake of ease. An article is good (maybe rename it though to have some consistency.

:Now I'm off. Happy new year, all. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 22:35, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

::I think if this article gets a bit more polished, it might be useful to link to this on the main page.
::Happy new year, Ederchil~& Sage. [[User:Grond|Grond]] 22:39, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
:::Maybe we can add also something about Lurtz, Orodreth and Gil-Galad ancestery...and uhm...the location of Dorwinion.

''Midden-Aarde Essays'' (a book of essays from Tolkien's work, made by a friend of my, what he is soon gonna publish in Dutch) says something about that in the chapter "Mysteries van de Hobbit, Dorwinion" ("Engimas of the Hobbit, Dorwinion") --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 15:54, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

:Actually, [[Dorwinion]]'s location is not really a mystery - Tolkien placed it on the Western bank of the [[Sea of Rhûn]]. How is Lurtz a misconception? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 16:00, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

::About your ½ rigth. It was only not Tolkien who placed there but his illustrator, latter Tolkien agreed with it. Many people think that it was [[Lurtz]] who killed Boromir while many [[Uruks]] did it.

::This comes from the chapter "Dorwinion":

''Uit de tekst van ‘De Hobbit’ is dan ook niet te achterhalen waar Dorwinion juist lag en wie er woonde. Desondanks is de ligging van het land op een andere manier duidelijk geworden. Pauline Baynes, de favoriete illustrator van Tolkien , zette Dorwinion in 1969 op de landkaart. Ze plaatste het land aan de monding van de Running, aan de noordwestelijke oevers van de Zee van Rhûn (zie kaart).''

''Hoewel Tolkien bezwaar had tegen sommige andere plaatsen die Pauline Baynes op de kaart gezet had, verklaarde hij zich wel akkoord met de ligging van Dorwinion. En ondanks het feit dat de Zee van Rhûn niet de locatie was die Tolkien oorspronkelijk in gedachten had, is het land sindsdien wel op die plaats blijven liggen. Christopher Tolkien merkt hetzelfde op in ‘The Lays of Beleriand’:''

“Dorwinion is marked on the decorated map by Pauline Baynes, as a region on the North-western shores of the Sea of Rhun. It must be presumed that this, like other names on that map, was communicated to her by my father, but its placing seems surprising.”

--[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 16:12, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

:Dorwinion dan maar wel. Maar Lurtz komt alleen maar uit de film. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 16:24, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

==Cleanup/Rewrite==
Going through the different "misconceptions":
#Definition of First Age; Third Age "of the Sun": keep.
#The Arkenstone was a Silmaril: keep
#Elrond visits Elros in Númenor: what part of the text implies such a thing? With the current wording it seems the "misconception" is created to highlight a trivial abandoned concept.
#Arwen, the lastborn of the Elves: keep. It was portrayed sort of like that in the movies
#Legolas's age: omit, already at Legolas
#Legolas hair color: see previous
#Names of the Nazgûl: remove or rewrite
#A female Nazgûl: remove or merge with 7.
#Mrs. Thranduil: there are so many characters whose mother's name is unknown, it's pointless to single out Legolas. Also, if this stays, can we at least tell the reader what the name is?
#The War in the North: pointless. Maybe inspired by BfMeII, but I'm pretty sure the promotional material for the game explicitly mentioned it was fiction.
#The shape of Middle-earth: we can keep this, but with a rewrite
#Pointed ears: why is it under misconceptions if it's pointed out (npi) that it's true?
#Hobbit feet: huge? rephrase
#Déagol/Sméagol relationship: keep. Maybe also point out that they weren't Hobbits, but ancestors of Hobbits.
#Gollum's age: pointless. Nothing in the text suggests such a thing.
#Tengwar on Sting: pointless. We might change this to "Bilbo named Sting when he found it", because that's what happened in the RB movie, the 2003 game and I believe the radio plays too.
#Saruman, the creator of Uruk-hai: rewrite.
#Dorwinion: keep

#Add: in light of Last Waterbender's recent edit to [[Bregalad]], we should also explain here that "beam" means "tree" here (cf. German ''baum'', Dutch ''boom'', Frisian ''beam''), not "a beam of light", and note something about translators messing up (Schuchart, for one, did).

Any other ideas? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 17:52, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
:As I agree that most of your points are not really misconceptions, I removed some of them (and left others). I also removed the "shape of middle-earth" thing since it doesn't seem as a misconception to me. The map was drawn by Tolkien; it is not said that it was replaced by another map; nor it is contradicted by the Silmarillion. I also collected some more from other articles. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 08:45, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

==Legolas' hair?==
The article: "However, in The Fellowship of the Ring it is stated that Legolas' hair was "dark", and dark brown or black hair was most common among the Sindar."
:Is it so? Here I would like to see the sources, so that the misconceptions would not be replaced by other misconceptions. What it comes to Legolas' dark ''hair'', I suppose the source in the ''Fellowship'' is this: "His head was dark, crowned with sharp white stars that glittered in the black pools of the sky behind." ({{FR|II9}}). But does this really tell anything about the colour of his hair or even of his skin? I suppose that we can only say, that when Frodo saw Legolas standing above him, the figure of the Elf was dark against the sky. – The source for the dark hair among the Sindar in general would also be nice to have. --Tik 11:47, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

==Buckland==

I'd suggest taking out the reference to Buckland or changing it. Early editions stated explicitly that Buckland was added to the Shire, and I'm not sure it's clear that the change in recent editions is the one Tolkien would have made, so I wouldn't call it a misconception. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] 20:15, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

:The semicolon was present already in the second edition (1966). -- [[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 08:41, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

==Sex of Nazgul==

The current text says <<with their consistent references as "Men" and "kings", although it could be argued that "Men" includes women>>. The part about "men" including women can be pretty much assumed - that term is usually used in place of "humankind", not as a plural of "man" in the sense of "male". Like in https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Men. Would emphasize that, as to make clear that Tolkien hasn't given us any information about gender here. Given how the civilizations feel, a woman is not that likely, but not impossible either, but if we don't want to speculate, the fact is that no information in that regard is given.

:Honestly while we cannot definitively say that all of the Nazgul were men, we cannot definitively say they weren't either. Furthermore, in the case of the Numenorians cited in the article, the three Ruling Queens are specifically referred to as such in the text. I think if Tolkien had wanted there to be a woman among the Ringwraiths, he would have included an explicit mention of a queen or sorceress or whatever among their ranks. I'm tempted to remove that part from the article, but I admit we can't 100% say one way or the other. --[[User:Turiannerevarine|Turiannerevarine]] 10:47, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

::I'm actually not sure if this part of the article should even be here. I do not know what exactly I would label this part as, to be honest, but I do acknowledge that it is a least a valid point, so I want other people to weigh in on this. Personally I think at the very least break it out from the names of the Nazgul to its own section for better page formatting.--[[User:Turiannerevarine|Turiannerevarine]] 23:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

:::The part about the sex of the Nazgul should stay. In Middle-earth Role Playing (MERP) publications there is a female numenorean nazgul called Adunaphel and the names and the Sex of these nazgul exist on several sites on the internet. A lot of older Tolkien Fans are familiar with those names. Tolkien legt the question open. Tolkien also explicitly mentions the Rings for the elven "Kings" in the Ring verse in The Lord of the Rings, but Galadriel is one of the bearers of the Rings for the elves and she is female and is the de facto queen of Lorien although she does not call herself so according to The History of Galadriel and Celeborn in UT. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhorahil]] 14:20, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

==Order==
I can't judge the rewriting, but this needs some kind of order, isn't it? Also, maybe a subsection for misconceptions created by the movies? --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 21:25, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

:It probably does, but I am not sure what kind of order it would need. Maybe by book?[[User:Turiannerevarine|Turiannerevarine]] 23:01, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

::I'd vote for alphabetical order. --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 17:08, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

:::I think that if we separated the misconceptions by book or movie, it would be easier for people to find what they are looking for. --[[User:Ancalagon the Black|Ancalagon the Black]] 18:11, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

::::Page has been reordered according to book/adapation (includes Jackson movies as well as other adaptations) and then alphabetically within the individual sections.[[User:Turiannerevarine|Turiannerevarine]] 22:30, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

:::::Perfect! --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 08:02, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

=="Age of the Sun"==

What about adding the new section about the common misconception that the First Age as if began with the first sunrise? -- [[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 07:59, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

:Great idea! [[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] ([[User talk:Hyarion|talk]]) 03:52, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

==Do We Need This Article?==

The entire point of this wiki is to provide information on Tolkien's lore, so I am not sure how important this is. Also, I've never met anyone who claimed definitively that the Arkenstone is a Silmaril, and it seems firmly in the fan-theory category (albeit, I admit, a rather weak one).
Also, I am not sure if we can fairly place Gil-Galad son of Fingon in here. Yes, the final version has Orodreth as his father, but that does not change the fact that ''a'' version had Fingon (I believe one also had Finrod, if I remember correctly). Gil-Galad's parentage is not mentioned in any writing published in Tolkien's lifetime, so I am not convinced it needs to be present. Following this pattern, we might add "Galadriel was involved in the Noldorin rebellion", since it is fairly clear Tolkien intended to rewrite her history so that she was not.
Also, this article states, "The Ring that Celebrimbor gave to Durin was a notable exception, being the only one of the Seven or the Nine purposely intended for a non-Elf." I am not sure this is entirely true. In the Unfinished Tales, it is stated, "There Sauron took the Nine Rings and other lesser works of the Mírdain; but the Seven and the Three he could not find", which seems to suggest that at least one point, Tolkien considered Celebrimbor himself to have given out all Seven to the different Dwarf lords himself, nor, as far as I can tell, does Appendix A "On Dúrin's Folk" ever go against this idea.

[[User:SingingOrc|SingingOrc]] ([[User talk:SingingOrc|talk]]) [[User:SingingOrc|SingingOrc]] ([[User talk:SingingOrc|talk]]) 18:40, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

:I agree. Some of the 'misconceptions' here are simply alternate versions of (at least in some instances) a very contradictory and muddled textual history. [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 16:08, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

==Deletion of "Merging Buckland"==

This is not a misconception. Foster and others based it on the original text of the first and second editions. Hammond and Scull added a semicolon to remove the inconsistency. See [[Possible_inconsistencies_in_the_legendarium#Addition_of_the_Westmarch_(and_Buckland)_to_the_Shire]]. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 15:40, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

:Are you sure that it was indeed Hammond & Scull who added a semicolon in the sentence? Just check out the second edition (1966) by yourself: https://archive.org/details/fellowshipofring0000unse_l5a0 -- [[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 16:32, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
:Or https://archive.org/details/lordofrings0000unse_y8h4/ -- [[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 16:35, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

::Very interesting! Thanks for pointing that out. Here are two from Houghton Mifflin with no semicolon: [https://books.google.com/books?id=_6onAQAAMAAJ&q=%22east+and+west+marches+the+buckland%22&dq=%22east+and+west+marches+the+buckland%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiKm6eg2auFAxUc8MkDHd9KBJYQ6AF6BAgGEAI] [https://books.google.com/books?id=UEmplIa6aOIC&q=%22outside+the+farthings+were%22&dq=%22outside+the+farthings+were%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjn29q8w6uFAxVG_8kDHSXKCs8Q6AF6BAgNEAI]

::So clearly I was wrong to say Hammond and Scull added the semicolon. Do you know the history? Was it lost in the American editions or added at some point to the British ones?

::Anyway, I'd say the article should make it clear that the belief was caused by the lack of a semicolon. Whether it was a misconception depends on whether Tolkien put the semicolon there, which seems likely. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 18:38, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

==Tom Bombadil in the Old Forest==

While I'm here, how about a section on the misconception that Tom Bombadil lives in the Old Forest and even that it constitutes his entire country? I see that now and then on Quora (where I’ve been correcting it). Here are some examples from a long article on Tom. “His realm is not just '''the Old Forest (though he lives in it''' by choice). His realm is Arda, where he was placed first before all other entities, creations and things.” And “If Tom and '''his domain in the Old Forest''' is more secure than even Doriath under Melian's protection and more secret or unassailable than Gondolin, either way, Tom further demonstrates he is more powerful than Morgoth.” <nowiki>[https://thenine1.quora.com/On-the-Entity-of-Tom-Bombadil-Ea-s-Deus-Ex-Terra]</nowiki>

By the way, I don't agree with that writer's conclusions either. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 21:02, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

:I don't understand. Tom Bombadil obviously does live in the Old Forest. What is the misconception here? --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 17:45, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

::See the paragraph starting "Just as they felt their feet slowing down" near the end of the chapter "The Old Forest" and the following paragraph, which make it explicit that the hobbits left the forest and still have considerable walking to do to get to Tom's house. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 19:35, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
:::Hmm, you're right, the house is on a bare hill just ''outside'' the forest. I didn't remember that. The lede of [[Tom Bombadil]] needs to be corrected too (it says "in the depths of the Old Forest"). --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 04:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
::::OK, I think we've got enough reason to add this topic. I just fixed the lead of [[Tom Bombadil]], by the way. What do people think of adding the previous version as a reference to how widespread the misconception is? [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 17:12, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

:::::I added the location of his house to the article. There are also Web sites that say LOTRO and Minecraft: Middle-earth put Tom's house in the Old Forest. If people who can check those games or others want to add them to the references, I think that would be good. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 18:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

:::And you're right, of course, that Bombadil's realm comprises the Barrow-Downs as well as the forest, and apparently the surrounding country as far north as the East Road. --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 04:38, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
::::And if you believe "[[Bombadil Goes Boating]]" (which I do), it extends west and a little south to parts of Buckland and the Marish at least as far as [[Farmer Maggot]]'s farm. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 17:12, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::Bombadil Goes Boating is ''not'' Canon, IMO, but we know from FOTR that Bombadil knows Maggot and has talked to him, so he presumably comes to the Marish sometimes. --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 03:26, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::Well, you could imagine that Maggot visited Tom's house or something.
::::::To clarify what I wrote, I don't believe that the events in "Bombadil Goes Boating" necessarily occurred, but I am willing to rely on the implication that Tom visited Maggot, especially with the corroboration that he knows Maggot. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 21:39, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Another one, which I believe Robert Foster believed, is that Tom in "[[The Stone Troll]]" is based on Tom Bombadil, though they have nothing in common but the name. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 04:56, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

== Male Elves have short hair ==

1) Maybe add that Beleg (and Gwindor ?) have long dark hair ? cf Tolkien's "Fangorn" painting.

2) "And regarding Finwë and the other Noldor, "Ingwë had curling golden hair. Finwë (and Míriel) had long dark hair, so had Fëanor and all the Noldor, save by intermarriage which did not often take place between clans, [...]. Melian was dark, and so was Lúthien." from The Nature of Middle-earth - "Hair," Suggesting that the Noldor, including Finwë had long hair. "
=> I'm not agree about "Suggesting that the Noldor, including Finwë had long hair." : this text passage is clearly about hair colour, not length. Intermarriage does not affect hair length, only colour. So, from this text, we can say that Finwë has long hair, but not the others.

(the next passage suggests more clearly this fact)

[[User:Erendis|Erendis]] ([[User talk:Erendis|talk]]) 19:30, 14 February 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Misconceptions

2025-02-14T19:32:43Z

Erendis: /* Male Elves have short hair */

__TOC__

I salvaged some non-trivial examples from an recent version of [[fanon]] article. Since we have already other debates liked "mistakes in Tolkien's works", we can tolerate this article too. This I consider also useful because I have also fallen victim to such misconceptions. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 20:46, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

:I agree. I simply removed all of it from fanon for the sake of ease. An article is good (maybe rename it though to have some consistency.

:Now I'm off. Happy new year, all. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 22:35, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

::I think if this article gets a bit more polished, it might be useful to link to this on the main page.
::Happy new year, Ederchil~& Sage. [[User:Grond|Grond]] 22:39, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
:::Maybe we can add also something about Lurtz, Orodreth and Gil-Galad ancestery...and uhm...the location of Dorwinion.

''Midden-Aarde Essays'' (a book of essays from Tolkien's work, made by a friend of my, what he is soon gonna publish in Dutch) says something about that in the chapter "Mysteries van de Hobbit, Dorwinion" ("Engimas of the Hobbit, Dorwinion") --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 15:54, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

:Actually, [[Dorwinion]]'s location is not really a mystery - Tolkien placed it on the Western bank of the [[Sea of Rhûn]]. How is Lurtz a misconception? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 16:00, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

::About your ½ rigth. It was only not Tolkien who placed there but his illustrator, latter Tolkien agreed with it. Many people think that it was [[Lurtz]] who killed Boromir while many [[Uruks]] did it.

::This comes from the chapter "Dorwinion":

''Uit de tekst van ‘De Hobbit’ is dan ook niet te achterhalen waar Dorwinion juist lag en wie er woonde. Desondanks is de ligging van het land op een andere manier duidelijk geworden. Pauline Baynes, de favoriete illustrator van Tolkien , zette Dorwinion in 1969 op de landkaart. Ze plaatste het land aan de monding van de Running, aan de noordwestelijke oevers van de Zee van Rhûn (zie kaart).''

''Hoewel Tolkien bezwaar had tegen sommige andere plaatsen die Pauline Baynes op de kaart gezet had, verklaarde hij zich wel akkoord met de ligging van Dorwinion. En ondanks het feit dat de Zee van Rhûn niet de locatie was die Tolkien oorspronkelijk in gedachten had, is het land sindsdien wel op die plaats blijven liggen. Christopher Tolkien merkt hetzelfde op in ‘The Lays of Beleriand’:''

“Dorwinion is marked on the decorated map by Pauline Baynes, as a region on the North-western shores of the Sea of Rhun. It must be presumed that this, like other names on that map, was communicated to her by my father, but its placing seems surprising.”

--[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 16:12, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

:Dorwinion dan maar wel. Maar Lurtz komt alleen maar uit de film. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 16:24, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

==Cleanup/Rewrite==
Going through the different "misconceptions":
#Definition of First Age; Third Age "of the Sun": keep.
#The Arkenstone was a Silmaril: keep
#Elrond visits Elros in Númenor: what part of the text implies such a thing? With the current wording it seems the "misconception" is created to highlight a trivial abandoned concept.
#Arwen, the lastborn of the Elves: keep. It was portrayed sort of like that in the movies
#Legolas's age: omit, already at Legolas
#Legolas hair color: see previous
#Names of the Nazgûl: remove or rewrite
#A female Nazgûl: remove or merge with 7.
#Mrs. Thranduil: there are so many characters whose mother's name is unknown, it's pointless to single out Legolas. Also, if this stays, can we at least tell the reader what the name is?
#The War in the North: pointless. Maybe inspired by BfMeII, but I'm pretty sure the promotional material for the game explicitly mentioned it was fiction.
#The shape of Middle-earth: we can keep this, but with a rewrite
#Pointed ears: why is it under misconceptions if it's pointed out (npi) that it's true?
#Hobbit feet: huge? rephrase
#Déagol/Sméagol relationship: keep. Maybe also point out that they weren't Hobbits, but ancestors of Hobbits.
#Gollum's age: pointless. Nothing in the text suggests such a thing.
#Tengwar on Sting: pointless. We might change this to "Bilbo named Sting when he found it", because that's what happened in the RB movie, the 2003 game and I believe the radio plays too.
#Saruman, the creator of Uruk-hai: rewrite.
#Dorwinion: keep

#Add: in light of Last Waterbender's recent edit to [[Bregalad]], we should also explain here that "beam" means "tree" here (cf. German ''baum'', Dutch ''boom'', Frisian ''beam''), not "a beam of light", and note something about translators messing up (Schuchart, for one, did).

Any other ideas? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 17:52, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
:As I agree that most of your points are not really misconceptions, I removed some of them (and left others). I also removed the "shape of middle-earth" thing since it doesn't seem as a misconception to me. The map was drawn by Tolkien; it is not said that it was replaced by another map; nor it is contradicted by the Silmarillion. I also collected some more from other articles. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 08:45, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

==Legolas' hair?==
The article: "However, in The Fellowship of the Ring it is stated that Legolas' hair was "dark", and dark brown or black hair was most common among the Sindar."
:Is it so? Here I would like to see the sources, so that the misconceptions would not be replaced by other misconceptions. What it comes to Legolas' dark ''hair'', I suppose the source in the ''Fellowship'' is this: "His head was dark, crowned with sharp white stars that glittered in the black pools of the sky behind." ({{FR|II9}}). But does this really tell anything about the colour of his hair or even of his skin? I suppose that we can only say, that when Frodo saw Legolas standing above him, the figure of the Elf was dark against the sky. – The source for the dark hair among the Sindar in general would also be nice to have. --Tik 11:47, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

==Buckland==

I'd suggest taking out the reference to Buckland or changing it. Early editions stated explicitly that Buckland was added to the Shire, and I'm not sure it's clear that the change in recent editions is the one Tolkien would have made, so I wouldn't call it a misconception. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] 20:15, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

:The semicolon was present already in the second edition (1966). -- [[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 08:41, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

==Sex of Nazgul==

The current text says <<with their consistent references as "Men" and "kings", although it could be argued that "Men" includes women>>. The part about "men" including women can be pretty much assumed - that term is usually used in place of "humankind", not as a plural of "man" in the sense of "male". Like in https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Men. Would emphasize that, as to make clear that Tolkien hasn't given us any information about gender here. Given how the civilizations feel, a woman is not that likely, but not impossible either, but if we don't want to speculate, the fact is that no information in that regard is given.

:Honestly while we cannot definitively say that all of the Nazgul were men, we cannot definitively say they weren't either. Furthermore, in the case of the Numenorians cited in the article, the three Ruling Queens are specifically referred to as such in the text. I think if Tolkien had wanted there to be a woman among the Ringwraiths, he would have included an explicit mention of a queen or sorceress or whatever among their ranks. I'm tempted to remove that part from the article, but I admit we can't 100% say one way or the other. --[[User:Turiannerevarine|Turiannerevarine]] 10:47, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

::I'm actually not sure if this part of the article should even be here. I do not know what exactly I would label this part as, to be honest, but I do acknowledge that it is a least a valid point, so I want other people to weigh in on this. Personally I think at the very least break it out from the names of the Nazgul to its own section for better page formatting.--[[User:Turiannerevarine|Turiannerevarine]] 23:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

:::The part about the sex of the Nazgul should stay. In Middle-earth Role Playing (MERP) publications there is a female numenorean nazgul called Adunaphel and the names and the Sex of these nazgul exist on several sites on the internet. A lot of older Tolkien Fans are familiar with those names. Tolkien legt the question open. Tolkien also explicitly mentions the Rings for the elven "Kings" in the Ring verse in The Lord of the Rings, but Galadriel is one of the bearers of the Rings for the elves and she is female and is the de facto queen of Lorien although she does not call herself so according to The History of Galadriel and Celeborn in UT. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhorahil]] 14:20, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

==Order==
I can't judge the rewriting, but this needs some kind of order, isn't it? Also, maybe a subsection for misconceptions created by the movies? --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 21:25, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

:It probably does, but I am not sure what kind of order it would need. Maybe by book?[[User:Turiannerevarine|Turiannerevarine]] 23:01, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

::I'd vote for alphabetical order. --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 17:08, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

:::I think that if we separated the misconceptions by book or movie, it would be easier for people to find what they are looking for. --[[User:Ancalagon the Black|Ancalagon the Black]] 18:11, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

::::Page has been reordered according to book/adapation (includes Jackson movies as well as other adaptations) and then alphabetically within the individual sections.[[User:Turiannerevarine|Turiannerevarine]] 22:30, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

:::::Perfect! --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 08:02, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

=="Age of the Sun"==

What about adding the new section about the common misconception that the First Age as if began with the first sunrise? -- [[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 07:59, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

:Great idea! [[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] ([[User talk:Hyarion|talk]]) 03:52, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

==Do We Need This Article?==

The entire point of this wiki is to provide information on Tolkien's lore, so I am not sure how important this is. Also, I've never met anyone who claimed definitively that the Arkenstone is a Silmaril, and it seems firmly in the fan-theory category (albeit, I admit, a rather weak one).
Also, I am not sure if we can fairly place Gil-Galad son of Fingon in here. Yes, the final version has Orodreth as his father, but that does not change the fact that ''a'' version had Fingon (I believe one also had Finrod, if I remember correctly). Gil-Galad's parentage is not mentioned in any writing published in Tolkien's lifetime, so I am not convinced it needs to be present. Following this pattern, we might add "Galadriel was involved in the Noldorin rebellion", since it is fairly clear Tolkien intended to rewrite her history so that she was not.
Also, this article states, "The Ring that Celebrimbor gave to Durin was a notable exception, being the only one of the Seven or the Nine purposely intended for a non-Elf." I am not sure this is entirely true. In the Unfinished Tales, it is stated, "There Sauron took the Nine Rings and other lesser works of the Mírdain; but the Seven and the Three he could not find", which seems to suggest that at least one point, Tolkien considered Celebrimbor himself to have given out all Seven to the different Dwarf lords himself, nor, as far as I can tell, does Appendix A "On Dúrin's Folk" ever go against this idea.

[[User:SingingOrc|SingingOrc]] ([[User talk:SingingOrc|talk]]) [[User:SingingOrc|SingingOrc]] ([[User talk:SingingOrc|talk]]) 18:40, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

:I agree. Some of the 'misconceptions' here are simply alternate versions of (at least in some instances) a very contradictory and muddled textual history. [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 16:08, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

==Deletion of "Merging Buckland"==

This is not a misconception. Foster and others based it on the original text of the first and second editions. Hammond and Scull added a semicolon to remove the inconsistency. See [[Possible_inconsistencies_in_the_legendarium#Addition_of_the_Westmarch_(and_Buckland)_to_the_Shire]]. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 15:40, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

:Are you sure that it was indeed Hammond & Scull who added a semicolon in the sentence? Just check out the second edition (1966) by yourself: https://archive.org/details/fellowshipofring0000unse_l5a0 -- [[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 16:32, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
:Or https://archive.org/details/lordofrings0000unse_y8h4/ -- [[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 16:35, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

::Very interesting! Thanks for pointing that out. Here are two from Houghton Mifflin with no semicolon: [https://books.google.com/books?id=_6onAQAAMAAJ&q=%22east+and+west+marches+the+buckland%22&dq=%22east+and+west+marches+the+buckland%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiKm6eg2auFAxUc8MkDHd9KBJYQ6AF6BAgGEAI] [https://books.google.com/books?id=UEmplIa6aOIC&q=%22outside+the+farthings+were%22&dq=%22outside+the+farthings+were%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjn29q8w6uFAxVG_8kDHSXKCs8Q6AF6BAgNEAI]

::So clearly I was wrong to say Hammond and Scull added the semicolon. Do you know the history? Was it lost in the American editions or added at some point to the British ones?

::Anyway, I'd say the article should make it clear that the belief was caused by the lack of a semicolon. Whether it was a misconception depends on whether Tolkien put the semicolon there, which seems likely. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 18:38, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

==Tom Bombadil in the Old Forest==

While I'm here, how about a section on the misconception that Tom Bombadil lives in the Old Forest and even that it constitutes his entire country? I see that now and then on Quora (where I’ve been correcting it). Here are some examples from a long article on Tom. “His realm is not just '''the Old Forest (though he lives in it''' by choice). His realm is Arda, where he was placed first before all other entities, creations and things.” And “If Tom and '''his domain in the Old Forest''' is more secure than even Doriath under Melian's protection and more secret or unassailable than Gondolin, either way, Tom further demonstrates he is more powerful than Morgoth.” <nowiki>[https://thenine1.quora.com/On-the-Entity-of-Tom-Bombadil-Ea-s-Deus-Ex-Terra]</nowiki>

By the way, I don't agree with that writer's conclusions either. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 21:02, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

:I don't understand. Tom Bombadil obviously does live in the Old Forest. What is the misconception here? --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 17:45, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

::See the paragraph starting "Just as they felt their feet slowing down" near the end of the chapter "The Old Forest" and the following paragraph, which make it explicit that the hobbits left the forest and still have considerable walking to do to get to Tom's house. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 19:35, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
:::Hmm, you're right, the house is on a bare hill just ''outside'' the forest. I didn't remember that. The lede of [[Tom Bombadil]] needs to be corrected too (it says "in the depths of the Old Forest"). --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 04:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
::::OK, I think we've got enough reason to add this topic. I just fixed the lead of [[Tom Bombadil]], by the way. What do people think of adding the previous version as a reference to how widespread the misconception is? [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 17:12, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

:::::I added the location of his house to the article. There are also Web sites that say LOTRO and Minecraft: Middle-earth put Tom's house in the Old Forest. If people who can check those games or others want to add them to the references, I think that would be good. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 18:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

:::And you're right, of course, that Bombadil's realm comprises the Barrow-Downs as well as the forest, and apparently the surrounding country as far north as the East Road. --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 04:38, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
::::And if you believe "[[Bombadil Goes Boating]]" (which I do), it extends west and a little south to parts of Buckland and the Marish at least as far as [[Farmer Maggot]]'s farm. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 17:12, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::Bombadil Goes Boating is ''not'' Canon, IMO, but we know from FOTR that Bombadil knows Maggot and has talked to him, so he presumably comes to the Marish sometimes. --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 03:26, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::Well, you could imagine that Maggot visited Tom's house or something.
::::::To clarify what I wrote, I don't believe that the events in "Bombadil Goes Boating" necessarily occurred, but I am willing to rely on the implication that Tom visited Maggot, especially with the corroboration that he knows Maggot. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 21:39, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Another one, which I believe Robert Foster believed, is that Tom in "[[The Stone Troll]]" is based on Tom Bombadil, though they have nothing in common but the name. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 04:56, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

== Male Elves have short hair ==

1) Were is the source of Elwë's long hair ? I haven't found it in the colour hair sources.

2) Maybe add that Beleg (and Gwindor ?) have long dark hair ? cf Tolkien's "Fangorn" painting.

3) "And regarding Finwë and the other Noldor, "Ingwë had curling golden hair. Finwë (and Míriel) had long dark hair, so had Fëanor and all the Noldor, save by intermarriage which did not often take place between clans, [...]. Melian was dark, and so was Lúthien." from The Nature of Middle-earth - "Hair," Suggesting that the Noldor, including Finwë had long hair. "
=> I'm not agree about "Suggesting that the Noldor, including Finwë had long hair." : this text passage is clearly about hair colour, not length. Intermarriage does not affect hair length, only colour. So, from this text, we can say that Finwë has long hair, but not the others.

(the next passage suggests more clearly this fact)

[[User:Erendis|Erendis]] ([[User talk:Erendis|talk]]) 19:30, 14 February 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Misconceptions

2025-02-14T19:30:23Z

Erendis: /* Male Elves have short hair */ new section

__TOC__

I salvaged some non-trivial examples from an recent version of [[fanon]] article. Since we have already other debates liked "mistakes in Tolkien's works", we can tolerate this article too. This I consider also useful because I have also fallen victim to such misconceptions. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 20:46, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

:I agree. I simply removed all of it from fanon for the sake of ease. An article is good (maybe rename it though to have some consistency.

:Now I'm off. Happy new year, all. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 22:35, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

::I think if this article gets a bit more polished, it might be useful to link to this on the main page.
::Happy new year, Ederchil~& Sage. [[User:Grond|Grond]] 22:39, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
:::Maybe we can add also something about Lurtz, Orodreth and Gil-Galad ancestery...and uhm...the location of Dorwinion.

''Midden-Aarde Essays'' (a book of essays from Tolkien's work, made by a friend of my, what he is soon gonna publish in Dutch) says something about that in the chapter "Mysteries van de Hobbit, Dorwinion" ("Engimas of the Hobbit, Dorwinion") --[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 15:54, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

:Actually, [[Dorwinion]]'s location is not really a mystery - Tolkien placed it on the Western bank of the [[Sea of Rhûn]]. How is Lurtz a misconception? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 16:00, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

::About your ½ rigth. It was only not Tolkien who placed there but his illustrator, latter Tolkien agreed with it. Many people think that it was [[Lurtz]] who killed Boromir while many [[Uruks]] did it.

::This comes from the chapter "Dorwinion":

''Uit de tekst van ‘De Hobbit’ is dan ook niet te achterhalen waar Dorwinion juist lag en wie er woonde. Desondanks is de ligging van het land op een andere manier duidelijk geworden. Pauline Baynes, de favoriete illustrator van Tolkien , zette Dorwinion in 1969 op de landkaart. Ze plaatste het land aan de monding van de Running, aan de noordwestelijke oevers van de Zee van Rhûn (zie kaart).''

''Hoewel Tolkien bezwaar had tegen sommige andere plaatsen die Pauline Baynes op de kaart gezet had, verklaarde hij zich wel akkoord met de ligging van Dorwinion. En ondanks het feit dat de Zee van Rhûn niet de locatie was die Tolkien oorspronkelijk in gedachten had, is het land sindsdien wel op die plaats blijven liggen. Christopher Tolkien merkt hetzelfde op in ‘The Lays of Beleriand’:''

“Dorwinion is marked on the decorated map by Pauline Baynes, as a region on the North-western shores of the Sea of Rhun. It must be presumed that this, like other names on that map, was communicated to her by my father, but its placing seems surprising.”

--[[User:Amroth|Amroth]] 16:12, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

:Dorwinion dan maar wel. Maar Lurtz komt alleen maar uit de film. -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 16:24, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

==Cleanup/Rewrite==
Going through the different "misconceptions":
#Definition of First Age; Third Age "of the Sun": keep.
#The Arkenstone was a Silmaril: keep
#Elrond visits Elros in Númenor: what part of the text implies such a thing? With the current wording it seems the "misconception" is created to highlight a trivial abandoned concept.
#Arwen, the lastborn of the Elves: keep. It was portrayed sort of like that in the movies
#Legolas's age: omit, already at Legolas
#Legolas hair color: see previous
#Names of the Nazgûl: remove or rewrite
#A female Nazgûl: remove or merge with 7.
#Mrs. Thranduil: there are so many characters whose mother's name is unknown, it's pointless to single out Legolas. Also, if this stays, can we at least tell the reader what the name is?
#The War in the North: pointless. Maybe inspired by BfMeII, but I'm pretty sure the promotional material for the game explicitly mentioned it was fiction.
#The shape of Middle-earth: we can keep this, but with a rewrite
#Pointed ears: why is it under misconceptions if it's pointed out (npi) that it's true?
#Hobbit feet: huge? rephrase
#Déagol/Sméagol relationship: keep. Maybe also point out that they weren't Hobbits, but ancestors of Hobbits.
#Gollum's age: pointless. Nothing in the text suggests such a thing.
#Tengwar on Sting: pointless. We might change this to "Bilbo named Sting when he found it", because that's what happened in the RB movie, the 2003 game and I believe the radio plays too.
#Saruman, the creator of Uruk-hai: rewrite.
#Dorwinion: keep

#Add: in light of Last Waterbender's recent edit to [[Bregalad]], we should also explain here that "beam" means "tree" here (cf. German ''baum'', Dutch ''boom'', Frisian ''beam''), not "a beam of light", and note something about translators messing up (Schuchart, for one, did).

Any other ideas? -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 17:52, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
:As I agree that most of your points are not really misconceptions, I removed some of them (and left others). I also removed the "shape of middle-earth" thing since it doesn't seem as a misconception to me. The map was drawn by Tolkien; it is not said that it was replaced by another map; nor it is contradicted by the Silmarillion. I also collected some more from other articles. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 08:45, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

==Legolas' hair?==
The article: "However, in The Fellowship of the Ring it is stated that Legolas' hair was "dark", and dark brown or black hair was most common among the Sindar."
:Is it so? Here I would like to see the sources, so that the misconceptions would not be replaced by other misconceptions. What it comes to Legolas' dark ''hair'', I suppose the source in the ''Fellowship'' is this: "His head was dark, crowned with sharp white stars that glittered in the black pools of the sky behind." ({{FR|II9}}). But does this really tell anything about the colour of his hair or even of his skin? I suppose that we can only say, that when Frodo saw Legolas standing above him, the figure of the Elf was dark against the sky. – The source for the dark hair among the Sindar in general would also be nice to have. --Tik 11:47, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

==Buckland==

I'd suggest taking out the reference to Buckland or changing it. Early editions stated explicitly that Buckland was added to the Shire, and I'm not sure it's clear that the change in recent editions is the one Tolkien would have made, so I wouldn't call it a misconception. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] 20:15, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

:The semicolon was present already in the second edition (1966). -- [[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 08:41, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

==Sex of Nazgul==

The current text says <<with their consistent references as "Men" and "kings", although it could be argued that "Men" includes women>>. The part about "men" including women can be pretty much assumed - that term is usually used in place of "humankind", not as a plural of "man" in the sense of "male". Like in https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Men. Would emphasize that, as to make clear that Tolkien hasn't given us any information about gender here. Given how the civilizations feel, a woman is not that likely, but not impossible either, but if we don't want to speculate, the fact is that no information in that regard is given.

:Honestly while we cannot definitively say that all of the Nazgul were men, we cannot definitively say they weren't either. Furthermore, in the case of the Numenorians cited in the article, the three Ruling Queens are specifically referred to as such in the text. I think if Tolkien had wanted there to be a woman among the Ringwraiths, he would have included an explicit mention of a queen or sorceress or whatever among their ranks. I'm tempted to remove that part from the article, but I admit we can't 100% say one way or the other. --[[User:Turiannerevarine|Turiannerevarine]] 10:47, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

::I'm actually not sure if this part of the article should even be here. I do not know what exactly I would label this part as, to be honest, but I do acknowledge that it is a least a valid point, so I want other people to weigh in on this. Personally I think at the very least break it out from the names of the Nazgul to its own section for better page formatting.--[[User:Turiannerevarine|Turiannerevarine]] 23:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

:::The part about the sex of the Nazgul should stay. In Middle-earth Role Playing (MERP) publications there is a female numenorean nazgul called Adunaphel and the names and the Sex of these nazgul exist on several sites on the internet. A lot of older Tolkien Fans are familiar with those names. Tolkien legt the question open. Tolkien also explicitly mentions the Rings for the elven "Kings" in the Ring verse in The Lord of the Rings, but Galadriel is one of the bearers of the Rings for the elves and she is female and is the de facto queen of Lorien although she does not call herself so according to The History of Galadriel and Celeborn in UT. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhorahil]] 14:20, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

==Order==
I can't judge the rewriting, but this needs some kind of order, isn't it? Also, maybe a subsection for misconceptions created by the movies? --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 21:25, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

:It probably does, but I am not sure what kind of order it would need. Maybe by book?[[User:Turiannerevarine|Turiannerevarine]] 23:01, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

::I'd vote for alphabetical order. --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 17:08, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

:::I think that if we separated the misconceptions by book or movie, it would be easier for people to find what they are looking for. --[[User:Ancalagon the Black|Ancalagon the Black]] 18:11, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

::::Page has been reordered according to book/adapation (includes Jackson movies as well as other adaptations) and then alphabetically within the individual sections.[[User:Turiannerevarine|Turiannerevarine]] 22:30, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

:::::Perfect! --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 08:02, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

=="Age of the Sun"==

What about adding the new section about the common misconception that the First Age as if began with the first sunrise? -- [[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 07:59, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

:Great idea! [[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] ([[User talk:Hyarion|talk]]) 03:52, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

==Do We Need This Article?==

The entire point of this wiki is to provide information on Tolkien's lore, so I am not sure how important this is. Also, I've never met anyone who claimed definitively that the Arkenstone is a Silmaril, and it seems firmly in the fan-theory category (albeit, I admit, a rather weak one).
Also, I am not sure if we can fairly place Gil-Galad son of Fingon in here. Yes, the final version has Orodreth as his father, but that does not change the fact that ''a'' version had Fingon (I believe one also had Finrod, if I remember correctly). Gil-Galad's parentage is not mentioned in any writing published in Tolkien's lifetime, so I am not convinced it needs to be present. Following this pattern, we might add "Galadriel was involved in the Noldorin rebellion", since it is fairly clear Tolkien intended to rewrite her history so that she was not.
Also, this article states, "The Ring that Celebrimbor gave to Durin was a notable exception, being the only one of the Seven or the Nine purposely intended for a non-Elf." I am not sure this is entirely true. In the Unfinished Tales, it is stated, "There Sauron took the Nine Rings and other lesser works of the Mírdain; but the Seven and the Three he could not find", which seems to suggest that at least one point, Tolkien considered Celebrimbor himself to have given out all Seven to the different Dwarf lords himself, nor, as far as I can tell, does Appendix A "On Dúrin's Folk" ever go against this idea.

[[User:SingingOrc|SingingOrc]] ([[User talk:SingingOrc|talk]]) [[User:SingingOrc|SingingOrc]] ([[User talk:SingingOrc|talk]]) 18:40, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

:I agree. Some of the 'misconceptions' here are simply alternate versions of (at least in some instances) a very contradictory and muddled textual history. [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 16:08, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

==Deletion of "Merging Buckland"==

This is not a misconception. Foster and others based it on the original text of the first and second editions. Hammond and Scull added a semicolon to remove the inconsistency. See [[Possible_inconsistencies_in_the_legendarium#Addition_of_the_Westmarch_(and_Buckland)_to_the_Shire]]. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 15:40, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

:Are you sure that it was indeed Hammond & Scull who added a semicolon in the sentence? Just check out the second edition (1966) by yourself: https://archive.org/details/fellowshipofring0000unse_l5a0 -- [[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 16:32, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
:Or https://archive.org/details/lordofrings0000unse_y8h4/ -- [[User:Ar-Zigûr|Ar-Zigûr]] ([[User talk:Ar-Zigûr|talk]]) 16:35, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

::Very interesting! Thanks for pointing that out. Here are two from Houghton Mifflin with no semicolon: [https://books.google.com/books?id=_6onAQAAMAAJ&q=%22east+and+west+marches+the+buckland%22&dq=%22east+and+west+marches+the+buckland%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiKm6eg2auFAxUc8MkDHd9KBJYQ6AF6BAgGEAI] [https://books.google.com/books?id=UEmplIa6aOIC&q=%22outside+the+farthings+were%22&dq=%22outside+the+farthings+were%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjn29q8w6uFAxVG_8kDHSXKCs8Q6AF6BAgNEAI]

::So clearly I was wrong to say Hammond and Scull added the semicolon. Do you know the history? Was it lost in the American editions or added at some point to the British ones?

::Anyway, I'd say the article should make it clear that the belief was caused by the lack of a semicolon. Whether it was a misconception depends on whether Tolkien put the semicolon there, which seems likely. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 18:38, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

==Tom Bombadil in the Old Forest==

While I'm here, how about a section on the misconception that Tom Bombadil lives in the Old Forest and even that it constitutes his entire country? I see that now and then on Quora (where I’ve been correcting it). Here are some examples from a long article on Tom. “His realm is not just '''the Old Forest (though he lives in it''' by choice). His realm is Arda, where he was placed first before all other entities, creations and things.” And “If Tom and '''his domain in the Old Forest''' is more secure than even Doriath under Melian's protection and more secret or unassailable than Gondolin, either way, Tom further demonstrates he is more powerful than Morgoth.” <nowiki>[https://thenine1.quora.com/On-the-Entity-of-Tom-Bombadil-Ea-s-Deus-Ex-Terra]</nowiki>

By the way, I don't agree with that writer's conclusions either. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 21:02, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

:I don't understand. Tom Bombadil obviously does live in the Old Forest. What is the misconception here? --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 17:45, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

::See the paragraph starting "Just as they felt their feet slowing down" near the end of the chapter "The Old Forest" and the following paragraph, which make it explicit that the hobbits left the forest and still have considerable walking to do to get to Tom's house. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 19:35, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
:::Hmm, you're right, the house is on a bare hill just ''outside'' the forest. I didn't remember that. The lede of [[Tom Bombadil]] needs to be corrected too (it says "in the depths of the Old Forest"). --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 04:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
::::OK, I think we've got enough reason to add this topic. I just fixed the lead of [[Tom Bombadil]], by the way. What do people think of adding the previous version as a reference to how widespread the misconception is? [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 17:12, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

:::::I added the location of his house to the article. There are also Web sites that say LOTRO and Minecraft: Middle-earth put Tom's house in the Old Forest. If people who can check those games or others want to add them to the references, I think that would be good. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 18:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

:::And you're right, of course, that Bombadil's realm comprises the Barrow-Downs as well as the forest, and apparently the surrounding country as far north as the East Road. --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 04:38, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
::::And if you believe "[[Bombadil Goes Boating]]" (which I do), it extends west and a little south to parts of Buckland and the Marish at least as far as [[Farmer Maggot]]'s farm. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 17:12, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::Bombadil Goes Boating is ''not'' Canon, IMO, but we know from FOTR that Bombadil knows Maggot and has talked to him, so he presumably comes to the Marish sometimes. --[[User:Pachyderminator|Pachyderminator]] 03:26, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::Well, you could imagine that Maggot visited Tom's house or something.
::::::To clarify what I wrote, I don't believe that the events in "Bombadil Goes Boating" necessarily occurred, but I am willing to rely on the implication that Tom visited Maggot, especially with the corroboration that he knows Maggot. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 21:39, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Another one, which I believe Robert Foster believed, is that Tom in "[[The Stone Troll]]" is based on Tom Bombadil, though they have nothing in common but the name. [[User:Spearwielder|Spearwielder]] ([[User talk:Spearwielder|talk]]) 04:56, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

== Male Elves have short hair ==

1) Were is the source of Elwë's long hair ? I haven't found it in the colour hair sources.

2) Maybe add that Beleg (and Gwindor ?) have long dark hair ? cf Tolkien's "Fangorn" painting. [[User:Erendis|Erendis]] ([[User talk:Erendis|talk]]) 19:30, 14 February 2025 (UTC)

Fingon

2025-02-14T19:01:30Z

Erendis: add hair description

{{short description|Second High King of the Noldor}}
{{infobox character
| people=[[Noldor|Noldo]]
| name=Fingon
| image=Anna Lee - Fingon.jpg
| caption="Fingon" by [[:Category:Images by Anna Lee|Anna Lee]]
| pronun=[[Sindarin|S]], {{IPA|[ˈfiŋɡon]}}
| othernames=''Findecáno'' ([[Quenya|Q]], [[Father-name|fn]]) ''The Valiant''<ref>{{S|Index}}, entry "Fingon"</ref>
| titles=[[High King of the Noldor]]
| position=
| location=[[Eldamar]] [[Dor-lómin]]
| affiliation=[[Union of Maedhros]]
| language=[[Quenya]] [[Sindarin]]
| birth={{YT|1260}}
| birthlocation=[[Eldamar]]
| rule={{FA|456}} - {{FA|472|n}}
| death={{FA|472}}
| deathlocation=[[Anfauglith]] in the [[Nirnaeth Arnoediad]]
| age=c. 2,771<ref group="note">[[Years of the Sun]]. Each [[Years of the Trees|Year of the Trees]] is equal to 9.582 Years of the Sun, and the Years of the Trees ended in the [[Year of the Trees 1500|year 1500]].</ref>
| notablefor=Rescuing [[Maedhros]] Battling [[Glaurung]] Battling [[Gothmog (balrog)|Gothmog]]
| house=[[House of Fingolfin]]
| parentage=[[Fingolfin]] & [[Anairë]]
| siblings=[[Turgon]] [[Aredhel]] [[Argon]]<ref group=note>[[Argon]] only appears in very late writings by [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]] as published in ''[[The History of Middle-earth]]'', and is left out of the published ''[[The Silmarillion|Silmarillion]]''.</ref>
| spouse=Never married<ref name=Shibboleth>{{PM|XI4}}, pp. 344-345: "''Findekáno had no wife or child; neither had Arakáno.''"</ref>
| children=None<ref name=Shibboleth/><ref name=Galad>{{PM|XI5}}, p. 349-351</ref><ref group=note>In the published ''[[The Silmarillion|Silmarillion]]'', [[Gil-galad]] appears as the son of Fingon, but in J.R.R.Tolkien's [[The Shibboleth of Fëanor|later manuscripts]] he appears as the son of [[Orodreth]].</ref>
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=Dark (long)<ref name=Finwe>{{PM|Finwe}}, p. 345</ref>
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=Bow and sword
| steed=
}}
{{quote|Of all the children of Finwë he is justly most renowned: for his valour was as a fire and yet as steadfast as the hills of stone; wise he was and skilled in voice and hand; truth and justice he loved and bore good will to all, both Elves and Men, hating Morgoth only; he sought not his own, neither power nor glory, and death was his reward.|''[[The Lost Road and Other Writings]]'', "[[Quenta Silmarillion (Lost Road)|Quenta Silmarillion]]", §94}}

'''Fingon''' was a [[Noldor]]in prince, and later second [[High King of the Noldor]], noted for his skill in battle and was thus named "the Valiant" by his cousin [[Maedhros]].

Fingon was the eldest son of [[Fingolfin]] and [[Anairë]], and he was the older brother of [[Turgon]], [[Aredhel]], and [[Argon]]. Fingon led the largest host in the [[Flight of the Noldor]] from [[Aman]] to [[Middle-earth]] where he then ruled over [[Dor-lómin]] and [[Hithlum]]. He ruled the Noldor as High King from {{FA|456}}, following the death of his father in single combat with [[Morgoth]]. However, Fingon is mostly remembered for his friendship with Maedhros, who he rescued from the peaks of [[Thangorodrim]], and for the manner of his death in battle with the [[Balrog]] [[Gothmog (balrog)|Gothmog]] during the [[Nirnaeth Arnoediad]]. He was succeeded as High King by his brother [[Turgon]], who ruled the Noldor from [[Gondolin]].

==History==
===In Aman===
Fingon was born in the [[Year of the Trees 1260]],<ref>{{NM|P1xxii}}</ref> being the eldest child of [[Anairë]] and [[Fingolfin]], second son of [[King of the Noldor]] [[Finwë]].<ref name=Finwe/> Whilst in [[Aman]] he lived in [[Tirion]], home of the [[Noldor]] in [[Eldamar]].<ref name="Eldamar">{{S|Eldamar}}</ref>

In {{YT|1495}}, [[Morgoth]], with the help of [[Ungoliant]], destroyed the [[Two Trees of Valinor|Two Trees]] of [[Valinor]], stole the [[Silmarils]] from the fortress of [[Formenos]] and killed Finwë.<ref name="AA">{{AA|107-128}}</ref> In anger, Fingon's uncle [[Fëanor]] made a [[Speech of Fëanor|speech in Tirion]] and, with [[Sons of Fëanor|his sons]], made [[Oath of Fëanor|an oath]] to recover the Silmarils and lead the Noldor in to Beleriand. Fingon did not support Fëanor, however he was moved by Fëanor's words, and he desired to see wide unguarded lands and to rule there a realm at his own will.<ref name="Flight">{{S|Flight}}</ref>

During the [[Flight of the Noldor]], Fingon led the largest host and his people supported Fëanor in the [[Kinslaying at Alqualondë|First Kinslaying]] at [[Alqualondë]]. Once the host reached [[Araman]] in {{YT|1496}} there was great debate about how to reach [[Middle-earth]]. Fëanor's people secretly took all the [[Swan-ships]] and passed over the sea to land at [[Firth of Drengist]]; [[Maedhros]] - who was friendly with Fingon - wanted to send the ships back first to retrieve "Fingon the valiant" but Fëanor burnt the ships at [[Losgar]].<ref name="Flight"/> Fingon, with the rest of the Noldor of Fingolfin and his cousin [[Finrod]], had to cross the dangerous grinding ice of [[Helcaraxë]] with much loss of life. They arrived in Middle-earth in {{YT|1500}}, after Fëanor had been killed in the second [[Battles of Beleriand|battle]] of [[Beleriand]], [[Dagor-nuin-Giliath]].<ref>{{GA|52}}</ref><ref name="Return">{{S|Return}}</ref>
[[File:Jenny Dolfen - Speed now this feathered shaft.jpg|thumb|left|''Speed now this feathered shaft'' by [[Jenny Dolfen]]]]

===Rescue of Maedhros===
In {{FA|1}}, soon after their arrival in Middle-earth following the rising of the [[Sun]] and [[Moon]], the host of [[Fingolfin]] were attacked in the [[Battle of the Lammoth]]. Although victorious in battle against the [[Orcs]], Fingon's brother Argon was surrounded and killed.<ref>{{PM|Shibboleth}}, p. 362</ref>

There was no great love between the Houses of Fingolfin and Fëanor following the latter's burning of the ships, causing the former to cross the Helcaraxë. Fingon resolved to rebuild the relationship between these two great houses of the Noldor, so in {{FA|5}} went on a noble quest to Thangorodrim to rescue his cousin and friend Maedhros who had previously been captured by [[Morgoth]]. Travelling alone, and unseen in the darkness, Fingon climbed across the cracks and crevices of Thangorodrim but could not find Maedhros. Then, in both despair and defiance, he took out his harp and sang a fair song of Valinor. Suddenly, above him,his song was taken up, and Maedhros sang among his torment. However, Fingon could not climb up to him and so Maedhros begged Fingon to shoot him with his bow. But, as Fingon cried to [[Manwë]] to "speed now this feathered shaft", the great [[Eagles|eagle]] [[Thorondor]] swooped down and lifted Fingon up. Fingon could not break Maedhros's chains - being of evil design by Morgoth - and although Maedhros begged Fingon to kill him, Fingon cut Maedhros's hand off at the wrist to free him. Borne back to [[Hithlum]] by Thorondor, Fingon's deed was praised as one of the most mighty amongst the Noldor. The hurt between the two houses was healed, and Maedhros waived the [[High King of the Noldor|High Kingship of the Noldor]] which then passed to Fingolfin.<ref name="Realms" />

[[Fingolfin]]'s people made their home in [[Hithlum]], mostly around [[Lake Mithrim]], and built the fortress of [[Barad Eithel]] to keep watch; in {{FA|7}}, at Maedhros's suggestion, Fëanor's sons moved to [[East Beleriand]].<ref>{{GA|65-71}}</ref> The region of [[Nevrast]] was taken by Fingon's brother [[Turgon]] (until he moved to [[Gondolin]]), whilst the south-western region of Hithlum, [[Dor-lómin]], was given to Fingon to rule over.<ref name="Realms">{{S|Beleriand}}</ref>

===In Hithlum===
[[File:Victoria Clare - Fingon and Glaurung.jpg|thumb|''Fingon and Glaurung'' by [[:Category:Images by Victoria Clare|Victoria Clare]]]]
Following the great victory of the [[Noldor]] in the [[Dagor Aglareb]], the Glorious Battle, Fingon lived in a watchful peace known as the [[Siege of Angband]].<ref name="Return"/> In {{FA|155}}, [[Morgoth]] sent a force of along the coast to [[Drengist]] to attack [[Hithlum]] from the west. Having been seen by the [[Noldor]], Fingon heavily defeated the Orcs, causing Morgoth to realize that orcs alone were no match for the Elves.<ref>{{GA|155}}</ref> Over a hundred years later in {{FA|260}}, the great [[Dragons|dragon]] [[Glaurung]] came forth from [[Angband]] to attack the Elves;<ref name="GA260">{{GA|260}}</ref> although a new breed of [[fire-drakes|fire-drake]], Glaurung was still relatively young and only half-grown. The Elves fled to [[Ered Wethrin]] and [[Dorthonion]] as Glaurung defiled the [[Ard-galen]], but Fingon led a troop of archers on horseback to attack Glaurung. He could not withstand their arrows and fled, and for the next 200 years the peoples of [[Beleriand]] enjoyed the [[Long Peace]] and grew prosperous.<ref name="Return" /> In {{FA|416}}, [[Fingolfin]] granted [[Dor-lómin]] to the [[House of Hador]], the third house of the [[Edain]], and Fingon presented [[Hador]] with a [[Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin|Dragon-helm]] which eventually passed to [[Túrin]].<ref>{{WJ|14}}, p. 228</ref><ref name="Narn">{{UT|Narn}}</ref>
[[File:Marya Filatova - Fingon and Rochallor.jpg|left|thumb|Fingon and [[Rochallor]] by [[Marya Filatova]]]]
In winter {{FA|455}}, rivers of fire suddenly sprang forth from [[Angband]], turning the Ard-galen into the [[Anfauglith]]. This began the [[Dagor Bragollach]], the Battle of Sudden Flame.<ref name="Ruin">{{S|Fingolfin}}</ref> The dragon Glaurung, now fully grown, led armies of [[Balrogs]] and [[Orcs]] in battle that resulted in the deaths of many Elves and Men. The remaining forces of the Noldor were scattered following this heavy defeat. Perceiving the ruin of the Noldor, Fingon's father Fingolfin challenged Morgoth to single combat. Fingolfin fought valiantly, and although he died in the battle, Morgoth himself was wounded and never again fought in single combat. Fingon then became [[High King of the Noldor]].<ref name="Realms" /><ref name="Ruin" />

Seven years later, in {{FA|462}}, Morgoth sent a force of Orcs to attack Fingon's people in Hithlum. Galdor, son of Hador, died defending [[Eithel Sirion]] and his son [[Húrin]] took up the [[Lords of Dor-lómin|lordship of Dor-lómin]] and served Fingon thereafter. To the west, battle took place in Hithlum, and Fingon would have succumbed had it not been for a force of [[Falathrim]] elves under the command of [[Círdan]] who sailed up the [[Firth of Drengist]] and helped defeat the Orcs.<ref name="Ruin" />

===Nirnaeth Arnoediad===
[[File:Steamey - Fingon in a battle with the Balrogs.jpg|thumb|right|''Fingon in a battle with the Balrogs'' by Steamey]]
Following the success of [[Beren]] and [[Lúthien]] in the [[Quest for the Silmaril]], [[Maedhros]] saw that Morgoth was not unassailable and was emboldened to form the [[Union of Maedhros]] of Elves, Men and [[Dwarves]]. Maedhros would attack from the east and Fingon from the west. They planned to trap Morgoth between the two armies.<ref name="Fifth">{{S|Fifth}}</ref> Unlooked for, Fingon's brother [[Turgon]] unleashed a force of ten thousand Elves from [[Gondolin]]. On seeing this, Fingon cried:

{{blockquote|'[[Utúlie'n aurë!]] Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!' And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered crying: 'Auta i lómë! The night is passing!'|''[[Quenta Silmarillion]]'', "[[Of the Fifth Battle]]"}}

However, Maedhros' army had been delayed following the betrayal of [[Uldor]]. [[Morgoth]] therefore sent his Orcs swiftly over the Anfauglith to taunt Fingon and draw out his forces. They held firm until the Orcs brought forth [[Gelmir (son of Guilin)|Gelmir]] and cut off his legs, arms and head before them. [[Gwindor]], Gelmir's brother, was enraged by this; and he, with Fingon, led the charge. Gwindor and the elves of [[Nargothrond]] reached the doors of Angband but they were all slain save Gwindor, who was taken captive, for Fingon could not come to his aid in time.<ref name="Fifth" />

On the fourth day, Fingon retreated and met his brother Turgon on the plains of Anfauglith. Some hours later, the banners of [[Maedhros]] appeared on the battlefield and the Elves were heartened, believing victory was in their grasp. However, Morgoth then unleashed [[wolves]], dragons and Balrogs led by [[Glaurung]], who separated the hosts of Fingon and Turgon from Maedhros. This battle, the [[Nirnaeth Arnoediad]], the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, was the most grievous for the Elves. Fingon, with a host of Men from [[Dor-lómin]] led by [[Húrin]], was surrounded. Eventually, being pushed back, Fingon fought [[Gothmog (balrog)|Gothmog]], lord of [[Balrogs]] in battle, but was killed by Gothmog's black axe after another Balrog bound him with a whip. They beat him into the dust with their maces, and his banner, they trod into the mire of his blood. This brought an end to Fingon's realm in [[Hithlum]], and his brother Turgon became High King of the Noldor,<ref name="Fifth" /> whilst Húrin was captured and tortured personally by Morgoth.<ref name="Narn" />

== Etymology ==
{{Pronounce|Fingon.mp3|Ardamir}}
''Fingon'' is the [[Sindarized]] version of version of his [[Quenya]] [[father-name]], '''''Findecáno''''' ("Hair-shout"), from ''[[findë]]'' ("hair") + ''[[káno]]'' ("commander"). It is said it was given by his father as an echo of ''Finwë'' and because it fitted him due his long dark hair, combed in great plaits braided with gold.<ref name=Finwe>{{PM|Finwe}}, p. 345</ref>

Read as proper [[Sindarin]], ''Fingon'' is composed of ''[[fin]]'' ("hair") + ''-gon'' ("lord, prince").<ref>{{webcite|author=Paul Strack|articleurl=http://eldamo.org/content/words/word-3451802205.html|articlename=S. ''Fingon'' n.|website=Eldamo|accessed=21 March 2021}}</ref>

At some point, [[Tolkien]] considered and rejected the name as ''Fingorn'', from ''fin(wë)'' + ''[[gorn]]'' ("revered").<ref>{{PE|Eldarin}}, pp. 112-113</ref>

In the [[Noldorin]] phase of the [[Elvish]] languages, the name contains the elements ''find-'' ("skill") + ''-gon'' ("valour").<ref>{{LR|Etymologies}}, entries "[[KAN]]", "PHIN-"</ref>

== Genealogy ==
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree| MIR |y| FIN |y| IND | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |FIN=[[Finwë]] ''d. {{YT|1495}}''|IND=[[Indis]] ''b. {{YT}}''|MIR=[[Míriel]] ''d. {{YT|1170}}''}}
{{familytree| | | |!| | | |)|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|.| | | | | |}}
{{familytree| | | FEA | | FDS | | FNG |y| ANA | | IRM | | FIR | | | | |FEA=[[Fëanor]] ''{{YT|1169}} - {{YT|1497|n}}''|FDS=[[Findis]] ''b. {{YT}}''|FNG=[[Fingolfin]] ''{{YT|1190}} - {{FA|456}}''|ANA=[[Anairë]] ''b. {{YT}}''|IRM=[[Írimë]] ''b. {{YT}}''|FIR=[[Finarfin]] ''b. {{YT|1230}}''}}
{{familytree| | | |!| | | |,|-|-|-|v|-|^|-|-|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|.| |}}
{{familytree| | | MAE | | FIN | | TUR |y| ELE | | ARE |y| EOL | | ARG |MAE=[[Maedhros]] ''d. {{FA|587}}''|FIN='''FINGON''' ''{{YT|1260}} - {{FA|472}}''|ARE=[[Aredhel]] ''{{YT|1362}} - {{FA|400}}''|TUR=[[Turgon]] ''{{YT|1300}} - {{FA|510}}''|ELE=[[Elenwë]] ''d. {{YT|1500}}''|EOL=[[Eöl]] ''d. {{FA|400}}''|ARG=[[Argon]] ''d. {{FA|1}}''}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | | | | | |!| | | | | | | |!| | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | TUO |y| IDR | | | | | | MAE | | | | | | ||MAE=[[Maeglin]] ''{{FA|320}} - {{FA|510|n}}''|IDR=[[Idril]] ''b. {{YT}}''|TUO=[[Tuor]] ''b. {{FA|472}}''}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | | | |!| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree| | | | | | | | | | | EAR | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |EAR=[[Eärendil]] ''b. {{FA|503}}''}}
{{familytree/end}}

== Other versions of the legendarium ==
===Earliest versions===
[[Christopher Tolkien]] observed that in the very earliest versions of the legendarium, there is no mention of Fingon (or Fingolfin, Finarfin or [[Finrod]])<ref>{{LT1|VIIn}}, p. 173</ref><ref>{{LT1|Xn}}, p. 243</ref> However, when he first appears in "[[The Lay of the Children of Húrin]]" in the 1920s he is named '''''Finweg'''''<ref>{{LB|1}}, p. 5</ref> (and on one occasion ''Fingweg''),<ref>{{LB|1e}}, 102</ref> a name he retains in the "[[The Quenta]]" of the early 1930s even though his story closely matches that of the published ''Silmarillion''. A more significant difference is that originally Fingon spoke against [[Fëanor]] at [[Tirion]],<ref>{{MR|Annals}}, pp. 121, 125</ref> whilst in the later 1951 version of ''Quenta Silmarllion'', Fingon and [[Turgon]] did not take part in the Kinslaying at [[Alqualondë]].<ref>{{MR|P3I7}}, p. 196</ref>

Fingon is renamed from ''Finweg'' the 1930s around the time of the ''[[Annals of Beleriand]]'',<ref>{{SM|7Ic}}, p. 316</ref> and was firmly ''Fingon'' by the time [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]] reworked the ''[[Quenta Silmarillion (Lost Road)|Quenta Silmarillion]]'' in 1937-8.<ref>{{LR|Quenta}}, passim</ref> In an [[Old English]] version of the ''[[Quenta Noldorinwa]]'', Fingon's name is given as '''''Finbrand'''''.<ref>{{SM|QA1}}, p. 213</ref>

===Later versions===
In the published ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', Fingon was the father of [[Gil-galad]], which was a brief idea that Tolkien had, but this inclusion was an editorial decision by Christopher Tolkien who admitted it would have been better had his parentage remained obscure and that Gil-galad being the son of [[Orodreth]] was Tolkien's "last word on the subject". Furthermore, before his death Tolkien corrected the last of the genealogical tables, where Fingon's wife and chidren (including [[Erien]] and [[Finbor]]) were struck out, and thus in ''[[The Shibboleth of Fëanor]]'' Fingon was once and for all mentioned as wifeless and childless elf-lord.<ref name=Shibboleth/><ref name=Galad/><ref>{{WJ|Ruin}}, pp. 242-3</ref>

{{references|notes}}

{{seq-start}}
{{seq-head
|race=noldor
|house=[[House of Fingolfin]] Cadet branch of [[House of Finwë]]
|born={{YT|1260}}
|died={{FA|472}}
}}
{{seq
|pvac=
|prev=[[Fingolfin]]
|list=2nd [[High King of the Noldor]]
|dates={{FA|456}} – {{FA|472|n}}
|next=[[Turgon]]
}}
{{seq-end}}

[[Category:Calaquendi]]
[[Category:Characters in The Silmarillion]]
[[Category:First Age characters]]
[[Category:House of Fingolfin]]
[[Category:Noldor]]
[[Category:Noldorin names]]
[[Category:Rulers in Beleriand]]
[[Category:Sindarin names]]
[[de:Fingon]]
[[fr:/encyclo/personnages/elfes/noldor/fingon]]
[[fi:Fingon]]

Olwë

2025-02-14T18:59:33Z

Erendis: add hair description

{{infobox character
| name=Olwë
| people=[[Falmari|Falmar]]
| image=Karolina Węgrzyn - OlweBeleriand.jpg
| caption="Olwë in Beleriand" by [[Karolina Węgrzyn]]
| pronun=[[Quenya|Q]], pron. {{IPA|[ˈolwe]}}
| othernames=''Olue'' ([[Telerin|T]]) ''Volwë'' ''Ciriáran''
| titles=King of the [[Falmari]] Lord of [[Tol Eressëa]] Lord of [[Alqualondë]]
| position=
| location=[[Tol Eressëa]] [[Eldamar]] ([[Alqualondë]])
| affiliation=
| language=[[Telerin]], [[Quenya]]
| birth=Between {{YT|1050}} and {{YT|1102|n}}
| birthlocation=[[Cuiviénen]]
| rule=From {{YT|1132}}
| death=
| deathlocation=
| age=
| notablefor=
| house=
| parentage=Unknown (descendant of [[Enel]] & [[Enelyë]])<ref>{{NM|P1xvii}}, p. 127</ref>
| siblings=[[Thingol]] [[Elmo]]<ref group="note">[[Elmo]] is a later addition by [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]] and is not in the published ''[[The Silmarillion]]''.</ref><ref name="Galadriel">{{UT|Galadriel}}</ref>
| spouse=
| children=[[Eärwen]] unnamed sons<ref group="note">He is said to have at least two sons according to a passing reference in ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', whose names are not mentioned in the narrative. According to ''[[The Lost Road and Other Writings]]'', one of them is named [[Elulindo]].</ref><ref name=Princes>{{S|Princes}}</ref><ref>{{LR|A1}}</ref>
| gender=Male
| hair=White (long)<ref name="Coming">{{MR|P3I3}}, p. 163</ref>
| eyes=Blue<ref name="Coming">{{MR|P3I3}}, p. 163</ref>
| clothing=
| weapons=
| steed=
}}
{{quote|Two lords they had, for their numbers were very great: Elwë [[Singollo]], which signifies [[Greymantle]], and Olwë his brother. The hair of Olwë was long and white, and his eyes were blue; but the hair of Elwë was grey as silver, and his eyes were as stars; he was the tallest of all the Elven-folk.|"[[Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor]]"<ref name="Coming">{{MR|P3I3}}, p. 163</ref>}}

'''Olwë''' was one of the two kings of the [[Teleri]], the other being his elder<ref name=PM>{{PM|Last}}, "Círdan", p. 385</ref> brother [[Thingol|Elwë]], Lord of [[Beleriand]]. As the prince of [[Alqualondë]], he ruled the Teleri of [[Valinor]], also known as the [[Falmari]]. He may have had a younger brother, [[Elmo]].<ref name="Galadriel">{{UT|Galadriel}}</ref>

== History ==
=== In Middle-earth ===
Olwë was born in [[Cuiviénen]] and was the younger brother of [[Elwë]], one of the ambassadors taken by [[Oromë]] to [[Valinor]] to see the [[Two Trees]]. When the ambassadors returned, they urged their peoples to hear the summons of Oromë and go to the [[West]]. Because their clan was the largest, it was divided in two hosts under the two brothers and together, they led their people.<ref name=capt/>

The [[Nelyar]] were the most unwilling during the [[Great Journey]] and Olwë's host was always the hindmost.<ref name=capt>{{S|Captivity}}</ref> [[Nandor|Some]] of Olwë's host were terrified by the shadow of the [[Misty Mountains]] and preferred to settle by the woodlands of the [[Vales of Anduin]].<ref name=capt/>

During a long wait in [[Beleriand]], [[Elwë]] disappeared.<ref>{{S|Thingol}}</ref> After years of searching, Olwë grew impatient, and led the greater part of the Teleri to [[Valinor]], on the insistence of the [[Valar|Vala]] [[Ulmo]].<ref name=Princes/>

=== In Aman ===
Olwë and his people dwelt on the island of [[Tol Eressëa]] for a while, where the [[Teleri]] could be by the sea whilst also bathing in the light of the [[Two Trees of Valinor|Two Trees]].<ref>{{AA|72}}</ref> These people became the [[Falmari]].<ref name=capt/> When they finally came to [[Eldamar]] some centuries later, the [[Falmari]], under the lordship of Olwë, began the building of [[Alqualondë]] with the aid of the [[Noldor]].<ref>{{AA}}</ref>

His daughter [[Eärwen]] married [[Finarfin]] son of [[Finwë]] and later king of the remaining [[Noldor]]. Besides Eärwen, Olwë had several sons.<ref name="Princes">{{S|Princes}}</ref>

==== The Kinslaying at Alqualondë ====
When [[Fëanor]] revolted against the [[Valar]], he attempted to persuade the [[Teleri]] to join him in order to obtain their ships. They were unmoved, wanting no other realm than [[Eldamar]] and no other lord than Olwë. [[Fëanor]] reproached Olwë and his people as "fainthearted loiterers" and reminded them that the [[Noldor]] had aided them when they first arrived. Olwë rebuked Fëanor's folly and refused to give him any ships of the [[Teleri]], which they valued as the Noldor did their gems. [[Fëanor]] withdrew but then led his forces to [[Alqualondë]] to take the ships by force, leading to the [[Kinslaying at Alqualondë|first Kinslaying]]. As the Noldor rowed the stolen vessels northward, Olwë called for [[Ossë]] to stop them, but it was not permitted by the [[Valar]].<ref>{{S|Flight}}</ref>

== Other names ==
In one manuscript, the [[Telerin]] form of ''Olwë'' is said to be '''''Olue'''''.<ref>{{WJ|A}}, p. 369</ref> In another manuscript the Telerin form is similar to the Quenya form: ''Olwë''.<ref name=Shibboleth>{{PM|XINotes}}, Note 20, p. 357</ref>

The Falmari sometimes called him '''''Volwë'''''.<ref name=Shibboleth/> Another one of his names was '''''Ciriáran''''' (meaning "mariner king").<ref>{{PM|XI4}} p. 341</ref>

== Genealogy ==
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | ENL |y| ENE | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |ENL=[[Enel]] ''awoke in {{YT|1050}}''|ENE=[[Enelyë]] ''awoke in {{YT|1050}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | |D|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|7| |}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | |:| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |:| |}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | |:| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |:| |}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | |,|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|.| | | |:| |}}
{{familytree | | | MEL |y| ELW | | OLW | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ELM | | CIR |MEL=[[Melian]]|ELW=[[Thingol]] ''d. {{FA|503}}''|OLW='''OLWË''' ''b. {{YT}}''|ELM=[[Elmo]] ''b. {{YT}}''|CIR=[[Círdan]] ''b. {{YT}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | |!| | | |,|-|^|-|.| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |!| | | | | |}}
{{familytree | BER |y| LUT | | SON | | EAW |y| FIN | | | | | | | | | | | | | | GLD | | | | |SON=''unnamed sons''|LUT=[[Lúthien]] ''{{YT|1200}} - {{FA|503}}''|EAW=[[Eärwen]] ''b. {{YT}}''|GLD=[[Galadhon]] ''b. {{YT}}''|FIN=[[Finarfin]] ''b. {{YT|1230}}''|BER=[[Beren]] ''{{FA|432}} - {{FA|503|n}}''}}
{{familytree | | | |!| | | | | | | |,|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|.| | | |,|-|^|-|.| | | |}}
{{familytree | | | DIO | | | | | | FID | | ANG |y| ELD | | AEG | | GAL |y| CEL | | GLT |GAL=[[Galadriel]] ''b. {{YT|1362}}''|CEL=[[Celeborn]] ''b. {{YT}}''|GLT=[[Galathil]] ''b. {{YT}}''|DIO=[[Dior]] ''{{FA|470}} - {{FA|507|n}}''|FID=[[Finrod]] ''{{YT|1300}} - {{FA|465}}''|ANG=[[Angrod]] ''d. {{FA|455}}''|AEG=[[Aegnor]] ''d. {{FA|455}}''|ELD=[[Eldalótë]] ''b. {{YT}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |!| | | | | | | | | | | |!| | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ORO | | | | | | | | | | CBR | | | | | | | | |ORO=[[Orodreth]] ''d. {{FA|495}}''|CBR=[[Celebrían]] ''b. {{SA|300}}''}}
{{familytree/end}}

== Other versions of the legendarium ==
In the earlier versions of the [[Quenta Silmarillion]], Olwë was named ''Elwë'' (while his brother Thingol also had the name ''Sindo''<ref>{{LR|Lhammas}}, ''Of the tongues of the Elves in Middle-earth, and of the Noldorin that returned thither'', p. 174</ref>), and there it was Olwë who was one of the [[Three Ambassadors]] instead of his brother Thingol.<ref>{{LR|Quenta}}, ''Commentary on Chapter 3(a)'', p. 217</ref> Neither did the existence of his daughter Eärwen or her marriage to Finarfin emerge yet.

== See also ==
* [[Ellu]]

{{notes}}
{{references}}
{{seq-start}}
{{seq-head
| race=teleri
| house=
| born=Between {{YT|1050}} and {{YT|1102|n}}
| died=
}}
{{seq
| prev=''[[Enel]], as Chieftain of the [[Nelyar]]''
| pvac=None
| list=King of the [[Teleri]]
| dates={{YT|1105}} - {{YT|1132|n}} (with [[Thingol|Elwë]]) From {{YT|1132}}
| next=Incumbent
| nrow=2
}}
{{seq
| prev=New title
| pvac=None
| list=King of the [[Falmari]]
| dates=From {{YT|1132}}
}}
{{seq-end}}
[[Category:Calaquendi]]
[[Category:Characters in The Silmarillion]]
[[Category:Falmari]]
[[Category:First Age characters]]
[[Category:Nelyar]]
[[Category:Quenya names]]
[[Category:Rulers in Aman]]
[[de:Olwe]]
[[fi:Olwë]]
[[fr:encyclo/personnages/elfes/teleri/falmari/olwe]]

Talk:Erendis

2025-02-14T17:11:13Z

Erendis: /* test */

I don't think we can consider Erendis as one of the [[House of Bëor]], as the [[Three Houses]] of the Edain fade out after the First Age, and new genealogical lines appeared. We should keep it as it is said in the text: «Beregar came of the House of Bëor by ancient descent» (UT:177).
--[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 07:52, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
:I think we should at least say she's "Descended from the [[House of Bëor]]" similar to how Arwen (born much later) is "Descended from the [[House of Hador]]"--[[User:Yeyeye|Yeyeye]] 22:14, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
::I wrote that comment back when somebody tagged her as one of the House of Beor. What you say can be seen in the genealogical tree, but she can't belong to a House that no longer exists.--[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 23:13, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Talk:Erendis

2025-02-14T17:10:18Z

Erendis: /* test */ new section

Travellers

2025-02-06T13:50:41Z

Erendis: correcting ref

[[File:Anna Kulisz - At last.jpg|thumb|''At last'' by [[:Category:Images by Anna Kulisz|Anna Kulisz]]]]
The '''Travellers''' was the name in [[the Shire]] for the four [[Hobbits]] who travelled with the [[Fellowship of the Ring|Company of the Ring]]: [[Frodo Baggins]], [[Samwise Gamgee]], [[Peregrin Took]] and [[Meriadoc Brandybuck]].<ref>{{RK|VI9}}</ref>

{{References}}

[[Category:Epithets]]

[[fi:Maanmatkaajat]]

Amon Ethir

2025-02-05T19:47:11Z

Erendis: add a traducted name : "Tomorrow I will lead you to Amon Ethir, the Spy-hill,"

[[Image:John Howe - Nienor and Glaurung.jpg|thumb|''Nienor and Glaurung'' by [[John Howe]]]]
'''Amon Ethir''', the Spy-hill was raised artificially by the people of [[Finrod]] in the wide plain of [[Talath Dirnen]], a league east of the [[Doors of Felagund]] above the river [[Narog]]. Over the years, trees grew on its flanks, but from its clear summit the watchers of [[Nargothrond]] could watch the lands about with the clear sight of the [[Elves]], and so the hill got its name, Amon Ethir.<ref name=Journey>{{CH|14}}</ref>{{rp|205}}

After the [[Sack of Nargothrond]], the hill still stood, and it was here that [[Niënor]] encountered [[Glaurung]] the [[Dragons|Dragon]]. Having plunged the land into a thick fog of dragon-reek, so that only the hill remained above the mists, he cast Niënor into a deep spell of forgetfulness. After the departure of the dragon, [[Mablung]] found Niënor in a daze upon the hill and led her away.<ref name=Journey>{{CH|14}}</ref>{{rp|208–210}}

==Etymology==
''Amon Ethir'' is [[Sindarin]] for "Hill of Spies"<ref>{{S|Index}}, entry ''Amon Ethir''</ref> or "Spyhill",<ref>{{UT|Index}}, entry ''Amon Ethir''</ref> from ''[[amon]]'' ("hill") + ''[[ethir]]'' ("spy").

{{references}}
[[Category:Beleriand]]
[[Category:Hills]]
[[Category:Sindarin locations]]
[[de:Amon Ethir]]
[[fr:encyclo/geographie/reliefs/beleriand/amon ethir]]
[[fi:Amon Ethir]]

Mithril

2025-02-05T16:59:44Z

Erendis: add a name from the Hobbit

{{disambig-two|the precious metal of [[J.R.R. Tolkien]]'s [[legendarium]]|the real-world producers of metal mintiatures|[[Mithril Miniatures]]}}

[[Image:John Howe - Mithril.jpg|thumb|''Mithril'' by [[John Howe]]]]
{{quote| ''Mithril!'' All folk desired it. It could be beaten like copper, and polished like glass; and the Dwarves could make of it a metal, light and yet harder than tempered steel. Its beauty was like to that of common silver, but the beauty of ''mithril'' did not tarnish or grow dim.|[[Gandalf]] in ''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]'', "[[A Journey in the Dark]]"}}

'''''Mithril''''', '''Moria-silver''', '''silver-steel'''<ref>{{H|Home}}</ref> or '''true-silver''' called by some, was a precious metal highly prized for its strength, light weight, and malleability. The [[Dwarves]] had their own, secret name for it.<ref name=Journey>{{FR|Journey}}, p. 317</ref> The [[Elves]] called it ''mithril'',<ref name=Journey/> a name given by the elven mastersmith [[Celebrimbor]]<ref>{{NM|Hands}}, p. 178 </ref>.

==History==
Mithril was found in the [[Misty Mountains]], in lodes leading north from the underground dwarven city of [[Moria]] towards [[Caradhras]] and down to darkness.<ref name=Journey/> It was also found on the island of [[Númenor]]<ref>{{UT|7a}}, note 31</ref> and probably in [[Aman]] as well<ref name=Earendil>{{FR|Earendil}}, p. 236</ref>.

The sole mithril-vein of the [[Misty Mountains]] made the [[Durin's Folk|Longbeards]] of [[Moria]] wealthy.<ref name=Journey/> Some [[Noldor]] settled in [[Eregion]] near the West-gate of [[Moria]], because they had heard that mithril had been found<ref>{{App|SA}}, p. 1082</ref> and desired to use it in their crafts. Thanks to trade with the [[Dwarves of Khazad-dûm|Dwarves of Moria]], the [[Elves]] created objects of mithril, perhaps the most notable being [[Nenya]], one of the [[Three Rings|Three Elven Rings]] [[Rings of Power|of Power]].<ref>{{RK|Havens}} p. 1028</ref> The [[Noldor]] of [[Eregion]] also made an alloy out of mithril called ''[[ithildin]]'' ("star moon"),<ref name=Journey/> which was visible only by starlight or moonlight. This was used by the elven mastersmith Celebrimbor for the inlaid decorative designs and writings on the [[Doors of Durin]] on the West-gate of Moria.<ref>{{FR|Journey}}, p. 304</ref>
[[File:Lída Holubová - Expensive.jpg|thumb|''Expensive'' by [[Lída Holubová]]]]
King [[Tar-Telemmaitë]] of [[Númenor]] received his name, which means silver-handed,<ref>{{UT|Index}}, entry ''Tar-Telemmaitë''</ref> because he loved silver and always commanded his servants to search for mithril.<ref>{{UT|Kings}}, XV ''Tar-Telemmaitë''</ref>

After the [[Downfall of Númenor]] and the removal of physical [[Aman]] from the world near the end of the [[Second Age]], the mines of [[Moria]] were the only source of Mithril in the world. Mithril was worth ten times its weight in gold when it could still be mined by the Dwarves.<ref name=Journey/>

Over time, the Dwarves of [[Moria]] continued to delve deep into the darkness below [[Caradhras]] and in {{TA|1980}}<ref>{{App|TA}}, entry for the year 1980, p. 1089</ref> they released a [[Durin's Bane|Balrog]] from the [[Elder Days]]. The [[Durin's Bane|Balrog]] destroyed the kingdom<ref name=Durin>{{App|Durin}}, fourth paragraph, p. 954</ref> and caused the mining of mithril to stop when the surviving Dwarves<ref name=Durin/> fled in {{TA|1981}},<ref>{{App|TA}}, entry for the year 1981, p. 1089</ref> after which mithril became priceless. The [[Orcs]] that inhabited [[Moria]] after the release of the [[Durin's Bane|Balrog]] did not dare to delve for mithril and gave all the mithril that the dwarves had already mined as tribute to [[Sauron]], who desired it.<ref name=Journey/>

After [[Gimli]] became [[Lord of the Glittering Caves]], he and his Dwarves forged great gates of ''mithril'' and steel to replace the [[Great Gate of Minas Tirith|Great Gate]] of [[Minas Tirith]] which was broken by the [[Witch-king]] of [[Angmar]].<ref>{{App|Durin}}, p. 986</ref>

==Other mithril creations==
* [[Vingilótë]]: The ship of [[Eärendil]], which he sailed into the sky, making the gleam of truesilver visible to the world as the Evening and Morning Star, was, according to legend, built for him from mithril and from elven-glass.<ref name=Earendil/>
* The [[Star of Elendil]]: A gem set on mithril fillet that was an heirloom of the [[Lords of Andúnië]] of Númenor.<ref name=Gladden>{{UT|Gladden}}, ''The sources of the legend of Isildur's death'', fourth paragraph</ref>
** The second Star of Elendil was created by the smiths of [[Rivendell]] after the first one was lost with Isildur in the [[Disaster of the Gladden Fields]].<ref name=Gladden/>
* The helmets of the [[Guards of the Citadel]] of [[Minas Tirith]], considered "heirlooms from the glory of old days".<ref name=MT>{{RK|MT}}, p. 753</ref>
* The [[Mithril-coat]] made by Dwarves and given to [[Bilbo Baggins]] as a gift by [[Thorin]].<ref>{{H|Home}}</ref><ref name=Journey/><ref name=South>{{FR|South}}, p. 277</ref>
* The embroidered [[Crown of Gondor|crown]] in the [[standard of Elendil]], made by [[Arwen]] for [[Aragorn]] during the [[War of the Ring]], contained mithril.<ref>{{RK|Battle}}, p. 847</ref>

==Etymology==
The name ''mithril'' consists of the two [[Sindarin]] words ''[[mith]]'' ("grey, light grey") + ''[[ril]]'' ("brilliance").<ref>{{PE|17}}, entry '''mithril''', p. 47</ref>

==See also==
* [[:Category:Images of Mithril|Images of Mithril]]

==External links==
*"[http://middle-earth.xenite.org/2013/03/06/where-did-all-the-mithril-go/ Where Did All the Mithril Go?]" by [[Michael Martinez]]

{{references}}
[[Category:Materials]]
[[Category:Sindarin names]]
[[de:Mithril]]
[[fr:encyclo/biologie/metaux/mithril]]
[[fi:Mithril]]

Orcs

2025-02-04T21:11:01Z

Erendis: add a plural form of "Orcs"

{{rewrite}}
{{sources}}
{{race infobox
| name=Orcs
| image = John Howe - In Mordor.jpg
| caption="In Mordor" by [[John Howe]]
| pronun=
| othernames=Goblins, Stonefaces,<ref name=monstersnote>{{MC|6}}, p. 220 (note 11)</ref> ''Orkor'' ([[Quenya|Q]]) or ''Yrch'' ([[Sindarin|S]]), ''[[Glamhoth]]'' ([[Sindarin|S]]), ''Rakhās'' ([[Khuzdul|K]])
| origin=Disputed; ''see [[Orcs/Origin]]''
| location=[[Utumno]], [[Angband]], [[Mordor]], [[Misty Mountains]], [[Angmar]], [[Mount Gundabad]], [[High Pass]], [[Dol Guldur]], [[Isengard]], [[Rhûn]]
| affiliation=[[Morgoth]], [[Sauron]]
| rivalry=[[Free peoples|Free Peoples of Middle-earth]]
| language=[[Black Speech]]; numerous [[Orkish]] languages; corrupted [[Westron]]
| people=[[Uruk-hai]], [[Goblin-men]], [[Half-orcs]], [[Hobgoblins]], [[Orcs of the Misty Mountains|Mountain Orcs]], [[Eastern Orcs]], [[Orcs of Mordor|Mordor Orcs]], [[Orcs of Isengard|Isengard Orcs]]
| members=[[Othrod]], [[Azog]], [[Bolg]], [[Gorbag]], [[Great Goblin]], [[Grishnákh]]
| lifespan=Compared to [[Men]] without a [[Númenóreans|Númenórean]] ancestry (some breeds, at least)<ref name="Myths_X">{{MR|P5X}}</ref>{{rp|418}}
| distinctions=Evil footsoldiers of the [[Dark Lord|Enemy]]; preferred darkness
| height=Short<ref>{{FR|II5}} The "huge" orc-chieftain is described as "almost man high"</ref>
| hair=
| skin=Sallow,<ref name="L|210">{{L|210}}</ref> black<ref>{{RK|Shadow}}</ref>
| clothing=
| weapons=
}}
{{Quote|You must dig swift and deep, if you wish to hide from Orcs.|[[Legolas]] to [[Pippin]] in ''[[The Fellowship of the Ring]]'', "[[Lothlórien (chapter)|Lothlórien]]"}}

'''Orcs''' (or Orcses<ref name=Passage>{{TT|IV2}}</ref> ) were a race of humanoid creatures best known for their service as footsoldiers and slaves to the [[Dark Lord]]s of Middle-earth. Even when not in thralldom to an evil master, Orcs rarely if ever had non-violent interactions with [[Elves]], [[Men]], or [[Dwarves]]. They were known by many names by the various peoples of Middle-earth.

==History==
===First Age===
{{Main|Orcs/Origin}}
[[File:Anna Kulisz - The vilest deed of Melkor.jpg|thumb|left|''The vilest deed of Melkor'' by [[:Category:Images by Anna Kulisz|Anna Kulisz]]]]
The true origin of the Orcs as a race of sentient creatures was a matter of heavy debate among the [[Wise]] and [[Lambengolmor|loremasters]] of [[Tol Eressëa|Eressëa]]. However, all agreed that they would not have come to be without the [[Arda Marred|corrupting]] influence of [[Morgoth]].<ref>{{App|Other}}, p. 1131</ref>

The first documented appearance of Orcs was in {{YT|1330}}, when the [[Sindar]] observed a variety of "evil creatures" roaming [[Beleriand]] that included Orcs, [[Wolves]], and "other fell beings of shadow." Small numbers of these evil creatures, thought to be scouting parties, had entered Beleriand over passes in the mountains as well as through the southern forests. In light of this new threat, [[Thingol]] commissioned the Dwarves of [[Nogrod]] and [[Belegost]] to craft arms for the Sindar, which they used to drive away the evil creatures and restore the peace.<ref>{{GA|26-27}}</ref> Around this time the Dwarves told the Sindar that these "fell beasts" came from the ruins of [[Angband]], and that they could also be found east of the [[Blue Mountains]], where they troubled the Elves who dwelt there.<ref>{{GA|25}}</ref>

When the first [[Dark Lord]] returned to Middle-earth in {{YT|1495}}, he rebuilt Angband from ruins and raised the triple peaks of [[Thangorodrim]] to defend it. At this time, Morgoth found fresh hosts readied by Sauron, for the Orcs had kept breeding under the command of his yet-devoted lieutenant.<ref name="Myths_X" />{{rp|415–422}} The Enemy's hordes of beasts, [[demons]], and Orcs left Angband in {{YT|1497}} to assault the Sindar in the [[First Battle of Beleriand]] and the Noldor in the [[Dagor-nuin-Giliath]]. The Elves were victorious in both battles, and few of the Orcs returned to Angband.<ref>{{S|Sindar}}</ref> The Orcs' other major engagement was the [[Battle of the Lammoth]], where they were also defeated by [[Fingolfin]] and his host.<ref>{{PM|Shibboleth}}, p. 345</ref>

During the last six centuries of the [[First Age]], as the core force of Morgoth, hundreds of thousands of Orcs were bred in [[Angband]] to participate in the [[Battles of Beleriand]] and thus fought in the [[Dagor Aglareb]], [[Dagor Bragollach]], [[Nirnaeth Arnoediad]], [[Fall of Nargothrond|Sack of Nargothrond]], [[Fall of Gondolin]], and finally in the [[War of Wrath]], where they were almost extinguished.<ref>{{S|Earendil}}</ref> Those that survived the defeat of Morgoth fled east of the Blue Mountains and hid probably in the northern reaches of the [[Misty Mountains|Hithaeglir]] near [[Angmar]] or the [[Grey Mountains]].
[[File:John Howe - Orc Swordsman.jpg|thumb|''Orc Swordsman'' by [[John Howe]]]]
Nonetheless, even before this time, the [[Eastern Orcs|Orcs living east]] remained outside Morgoth's reach ever since he made the fortress of Angband a seat of his power and thus ruled themselves, though they squabbled amongst themselves as much as they troubled both kinds of the [[Children of Ilúvatar]].<ref name="Cuv">{{NM|P3xviii}}, p. 370</ref>

===Second Age===
After the [[War of Wrath]], numerous Orcs who formerly belonged to Morgoth and escaped Morgoth's vanquishment, were now leaderless and reckless, but still armed and cruel. They turned to [[Rhovanion]] to the East and started harassing the lands occupied by [[Dwarves]] and [[Northmen]].<ref>{{PM|XNotes}} #28</ref> To cope with this danger, the two formed the [[Alliance of Dwarves and Men]]<ref name="relations">{{PM|Relations}}</ref>

Around the year {{SA|1000}} Sauron reappeared, took the land of [[Mordor]] as his realm and started the construction of [[Barad-dûr]]. His servants among Orc-kind were at this time of northern stock. It was not only until later that he gathered all of their foul race under his command - as long as he went among the Elves in a fair visage, the long-autonomous [[Eastern Orcs]] resented him.<ref name="Cuv">{{NM|P3xviii}}, p. 370</ref> Still for a long time Sauron's minions did not play an important role, for the Dark Lord had chosen a more subtle way to bring the Free Peoples under his sway through guileful trickery, whose chief personification were the [[Rings of Power]].

When Sauron invaded [[Eriador]] in {{SA|1695}}, hordes of Orcs invaded the mountains again. [[Gundabad]] was [[Fall of Mount Gundabad|taken]] and [[Ered Mithrin]] was raided. It was not only Orcs the Alliance fought but also other savage [[Easterlings]].<ref name="relations" />

During the [[War of the Elves and Sauron]], in {{SA|1700}}, Orcs formed the main power of Sauron's host. Despite the immeasurable number of Orcs, the Dark Lord was defeated by the united hosts of Elves and [[Númenóreans]]. Still Sauron was powerful east of the [[Misty Mountains]] and the Orcs that inhabited the mountains and the eastern lands multiplied.

When Sauron was finally driven back from Eriador in {{SA|1701}}, the Alliance ended. The Longbeards [[Dwarves of Moria|of Khazad-dûm]] and [[Dwarves of the Iron Hills|of the Iron Hills]] were cut off for some time since the Orcs now infested the Grey Mountains.<ref name="relations" /><ref>{{PM|Dwarves}}, p. 305</ref>

Finally, Orcs were the core force of the Dark Lord's legions during the [[War of the Last Alliance]], and fought in great battles such as the [[Battle of Dagorlad]] and the [[Siege of Barad-dûr]].

===Third Age===
[[File:Richard Sullivan - Orc.jpg|thumb|left|''Orc'' by [[:Category:Images by Richard Sullivan|Richard Sullivan]]]]
During the [[Third Age]], Orcs were once more the standard troops of Sauron, both in [[Mordor]] and in [[Dol Guldur]]. The Enemy's great vassals- such as the [[Witch-king of Angmar]] and the corrupted [[Wizard]] [[Saruman]] in [[Isengard]] - made use of the Orcs as the backbone of their forces.

In [[Angmar]], Orcs fought for the Witch-king in [[Angmar War|his campaign]] against the realm of [[Arnor]]. Years later, they invaded [[Eriador]] under the remote leadership of the Necromancer (Sauron).

The Orcs of the Misty Mountains, one of the few Orkish societies who enjoyed more autonomy despite still paying homage to the Necromancer (Sauron), and their chieftain [[Azog]] started out the [[War of the Dwarves and Orcs]], and after their vanquishment they retreated in their caves. They appeared again in {{TA|2941}}, when the [[Battle of Five Armies]] took place, suffering yet another terrible defeat with the loss of the spawn of Azog, [[Bolg]].

Both for the Dark Lord's war on [[Rohan]] and for his own interests regarding the [[Ring-bearer]], the Wizard Saruman began to assemble Orcs into his own army in [[Isengard]] - these troops were gathered from amidsts the tribes of the Misty Mountains, which were supplemented by others he bred, some being crossed with Men. The [[Orcs of Isengard]] fought in the early-mid battles of the [[War of the Ring]], such as the [[First Battle of the Fords of Isen|First]] and [[Second Battle of the Fords of Isen|Second Battles of the Fords of Isen]], but were crushed or scattered at the [[Battle of the Hornburg]].

The [[Orcs of Mordor]] fought in major battles during the War of the Ring, such as the [[Battle of the Pelennor Fields]], but the majority of Mordor's forces were destroyed or scattered at the [[Battle of the Morannon]]. Sporadic fighting in the following weeks led to the Orcs finally being driven out of the western end of Mordor, though it is unclear how many Orcs the Dark Lord had in his armies, and it is also unclear how many survived after his defeat.

The Orcs in [[Dol Guldur]] remained in [[Mirkwood]] until the [[Fall of Dol Guldur]], one of the last battles of the War of the Ring.

===Later history===
The fate of the Orcs after the Third Age is unknown. Though many of the Dark Lord's footsoldiers fought on and were slain in the weeks following the Battle of the Morannon, the true number of Sauron's hosts is unclear, as are the numbers of Orcs not within Mordor that may still inhabit the rest of Middle-earth. It is at least known that the Orcs of Moria either fled or were slain by the Fourth Age, as it is mentioned that the Dwarves managed to retake Moria and the mines within it.

==Characteristics==
===Culture===
[[File:Jan Pospíšil - Orc Army.jpg|thumb|''Orc Army'' by [[:Category:Images by Jan Pospíšil|Jan Pospíšil]]]]
Orcs were pitiless and took pleasure in all kinds of cruel and wicked acts; they did evil deeds for their own amusement, purely for the sport of it. Their fractious and vicious natures made them unreliable servants – when outside their master's reach, Orcs would often disobey their commands or fight amongst themselves, to the detriment of their master's designs.<ref name="Myths_X" />{{rp|418}}

In battle, Orcs fought with reckless ferocity and delighted in the slaughter and torture of their foes. However, many had a cowardly nature and were often regarded as inferior to the soldiers of Men, Elves, and Dwarves, though far more expendable.{{fact}} Orcs also proved themselves adept at taming and riding [[Wolves]] and [[Wargs]], an ability harnessed by the Dark Lords for their armies.

The corruption inherent to Orc being made them virtually powerless to resist the domination of a greater will – at first, this was Morgoth's, later Sauron's. While under such domination, Orcs were reduced to an "ant-like life." This was most plainly seen under Sauron's tyranny, as he operated on a smaller scale than did Morgoth and his foes were far weaker than the Noldor of the Elder Days.<ref name="Myths_X" />{{rp|419}} The Orkish people thus cycled between periods of unity when they had a Dark Lord to unite them, and disunity when there was no Dark Lord.

After the War of Wrath, the Orcs were confused and dismayed without Morgoth, and were easily scattered by their enemies. In the millennia after his defeat and banishment from Arda, they were without a leader and degenerated into small, quarrelsome tribes hiding in wild places, such as the [[Misty Mountains]] and the [[Mountains of Angmar]]. In this state, Orcs remained a threat to travelers and isolated settlements, and when united could pose a regional threat, but without a unifying will they could never become the menace they were under a Dark Lord.

Even when united, the Orcs were consumed with petty rivalries and hatreds. Each time he rose as Dark Lord, Sauron had to contend with many tribes of "wild" Orcs who spoke many tongues and had become accustomed to independence. To meld these disparate, mutually despised groups into a coherent force and prevent them from slaying each other, Sauron had to keep their hatred focused on an outside enemy: the Men and Elves of the West. In this he was highly successful: the Orcs he pressed into his direct service in his trained armies were so completely dominated by his will that they would die for him on command without hesitation.<ref name="Myths_X" />{{rp|420}}

===Lifespan===
Orcs appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain. This was not well understood in the Elder Days however, as Morgoth had many immortal [[Maiar]] servants and those whose business it was to direct the Orcs would assume similar bodily shape, though greater and more terrible. That gave rise to histories which speak of Great Orcs, or Orc-captains which were not slain and reappeared in battle for years far longer than the lifespan of Men.<ref name="Myths_X" />{{rp|523}}

There is, in any case, a hint for a long lifespan in the story of two of the most famous Orc-chieftains: Azog and Bolg. Bolg, being the son of Azog, was the chieftain of the Orcs who attacked Erebor in the Battle of Five Armies in {{TA|2941}}. Azog himself was killed in the Battle of Azanulbizar in {{TA|2799}}, so Bolg was at least 142 years old.

===Appearance===
Orcs were described as smaller in stature than Men on average, strong but crooked in frame and bow-legged. One "huge orc-chieftain" was described as "almost Man-high", but some must have been of a similar size to Hobbits (Frodo and Sam succeeded in disguising themselves as Orcs in Mordor). Their overall appearance varied: they had long arms and fanged mouths; Tolkien describes them as "swart" or "sallow", although one in Mordor is "black-skinned" and others are described generally as "black" (possibly not a reference to skin colour).

===Abilities & Behavior===
Orcs of the mountains would often not venture very far from their homes unless they had to look for new homes, went to war or went on raids to get food or slaves. In such raids they would often obtain the help of Wargs with whom they then shared the plunder.<ref name="Pan">{{H|Pan}}</ref>

Orcs made no works of beauty, but created many clever things. When they took the trouble they were capable at tunneling and mining, surpassed only by the most skilled Dwarves, but they were usually dirty and untidy.<ref>{{H|Hill}}</ref> Orcs were unafraid of fire<ref name="Pan" /> but shunned water and did not willingly go near the sea except in great need.<ref>{{S|Beleriand}}</ref>

===Kinds of Orcs===
*[[Eastern Orcs]]
*[[Snaga]]
*[[Orc-hunters]]
*[[Orcs of Mordor]]
*[[Orcs of the Misty Mountains]]
*[[Orcs of Isengard]]
*[[Half-orcs]] (and [[Goblin-men]])
*[[Uruk-hai]]
*[[Hobgoblins]]

===Orcs and goblins===
[[File:Darek Zabrocki - Goblins.jpg|thumb|250px|''Goblins'' by [[:Category:Images by Darek Zabrocki|Darek Zabrocki]]]]
The term ''goblin'' was used primarily in ''[[The Hobbit]]'' but also in ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' where it is used synonymously with "Orc".<ref>{{HM|RC}}, p. 24</ref> It is said to be a translation of ''Orc'' in a note on languages and runic letters in ''[[The Hobbit]]''.
{{blockquote|Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin|''[[The Hobbit]]''}}
{{blockquote|There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature [...] Upon their shields they bore [...] a small white hand in the centre of the black field|''[[The Two Towers]]'', "[[The Departure of Boromir]]"}}

==Etymology==
{{quote|The word as far as I am concerned actually derived from [[Old English]] ''orc'', demon, but only because of its phonetic suitability.|[[J.R.R. Tolkien]] in [[Letter 144]]}}
===Orc===
The word '''''Orc''''' is said to be the "''form of the name that other races had for this foul people as it was in the [[Rohanese|language of Rohan]]''".<ref name="App|F1iv" />

In his late, post-''Lord of the Rings'' writings, Tolkien preferred the spelling '''''Ork'''''.<ref>{{HM|PM}}</ref>

It also is "supposed to be the CS[Common Speech] name of these creatures at that time".<ref name="Nomenclature">{{HM|N}}</ref>

The statement may be ambiguous due to Tolkien's use of the term Common Speech for both Westron and English. But Tolkien continued to say "It should therefore according to the system be translated into E[English]. or the LT[Language of Translation]. It was translated 'goblin' in The H.[Hobbit]".<ref name="Nomenclature" /> This may suggest it is a genuine Westron word, which Tolkien kept untranslated because he liked the sound of it: "In any case orc seemed to me, and seems, in sound a good name for these creatures. It should be retained."<ref name="Nomenclature" />

Fictionally, it is then possibly derived from 'orch', the [[Sindarin]] word for Orc. The original sense of the word seems to be "bogey", "bogeyman", that is, something that provokes fear, as seen in the Quenya cognate ''urko'', pl. ''urqui''.<ref>{{HM|WJ}} Quendi and Eldar</ref>

Tolkien derived the word ''orc'' from [[Old English]] believing it refers to a kind of evil spirits,<ref name="L144" /> which in turn is thought to derive from Latin ''Orcus'' "Hades", although Tolkien doubted this etymology.<ref>{{LE|290a}}</ref> He also thought it survives in the modern language for sea-beasts,<ref>{{HM|N}}, p. 762</ref> such as the [[Wikipedia:Orca Whale|Orca Whale]].

''Orc'' is an [[Old English]] word that refers mainly to a kind of metal cup (from Latin ''Urceus'').<ref group="note">The word ''Orc'' occurs twice in ''[[Beowulf (poem)|Beowulf]]''.</ref> However, in an 11th century glossary, this entry was conflated with another entry which refers to evil giants such as ''[[Wikipedia:Jötunn|þyrs]]'' and other monsters, also glossed in Latin as ''Orcus''. This merge of the two entries made many philologists of the previous centuries, like Tolkien, to believe that ''Orc'' was an actual Old English word that refers to any kind of evil creature from the underworld.<ref>Bosworth and Toller's ''An Anglo-Saxon Dictionary'' (1898), corrected in later editions</ref>

The word ''Orcnéas'' is once found only in ''[[Beowulf (poem)|Beowulf]]'' (lines 112-113) and is cited as an example of the word "Orc" in Old English text. Actually its meaning is not clear, and it is thought to refer to corpses (''néas'') from the Underworld.

==="Orcs" in Tolkien's languages===
Tolkien said that one of the reason of choosing "Orc" over "Goblin" was the similarity with his fictional languages.<ref name="WJAC">{{WJ|AC}}, pp. 389-91</ref> Indeed most [[Elvish]], [[Mannish]] and other words for Orc, are similar to the English word.

The basic [[Primitive Quendian]] [[Sundocarme|root]], from which the words for Orc derive, is [[RUKU]] (said to refer to any "bogey" that scared the Elves):<ref name="WJAC" />

*[[Quenya]] '''''orco'''''<ref name="PE17_47" /> (pl. '''''Orkor'''''<ref>{{GA|27}}, p. 12</ref><ref>{{HM|MR}}, pp. 74, 194</ref>); [[Exilic Quenya]] '''''urko''''' (pl. '''''orkor''''' and '''''orqui''''')<ref name="WJAC" />
*[[Sindarin]]: '''''orch'''''/'''''Orch''''' (pl. '''''yrch'''''/'''''Yrch''''', class pl. '''''Orchoth'''''/'''''orchoth'''''<ref group="note">''Orchoth'' is likely a compound of ''orch'' + ''[[hoth]]''.</ref>);<ref name="App|F1iv" /><ref name="L144" /><ref name="WJAC" /><ref name="PE17_47" /><ref name="PE17_52-4" /> '''''[[glamhoth]]'''''
*[[Nandorin]]: '''''ūriʃ'''''<ref name="PE17_52-4">{{PE|17}}, pp. 52-4</ref>

*[[Adûnaic]]: '''''urku''''', '''''urkhu'''''<ref name="WJAC" />
*[[Westron]]: '''''orka''''',<ref name="PE17_47">{{PE|17}}, p. 47</ref> possibly '''orc''' <ref name="Nomenclature" />
*[[Black Speech]]: '''''[[Uruk-hai#Etymology|uruk]]'''''<ref name="App|F1iv">{{App|F1iv}}</ref><ref name="L144">{{L|144}}</ref><ref name="WJAC" /><ref name="PE17_47" />
*[[Khuzdul]]: '''''Rukhs''''' (pl. '''''Rakhās'''''), possibly derived from an unknown [[Avarin]] word of the same meaning<ref name="WJAC" /><ref group="note">''Rukhs'' appears to contain the radical R-Kh-S.</ref>
*[[Drúadan language]]: '''''gorgûn''''' ("orc-folk"; the form ''gorgûn'' is perhaps plural of an unknown singular form),<ref name="PE17_99">{{PE|17}}, p. 99</ref><ref>{{RK|V5}}</ref> which is possibly derived from the Elvish words<ref name="WJAC" />

In the earliest versions of [[Qenya]], Tolkien had words such as "'''Ork (orq-)''' pl. '''Orqi''' and fem. "'''orqindi'''".<ref>{{Webcite|articlename=Ork|website=Parf Edhellen|accessed=24 July 2024|articleurl=https://www.elfdict.com/wt/505683}}</ref>

In [[Noldorin]], the earlier version of Sindarin, the word for Orc is the same: ''orch'' (pl ''yrch'').<ref name="LR379">{{LR|Etymologies}}, p. 379 (entry for ÓROK)</ref><ref>{{MR|P3I7}}, p. 195</ref><ref>{{MC|Secret}}, p. 217</ref> The [[Gnomish]] word for "one of a tribe of the orcs. a goblin" is said to be '''''Gong'''''.<ref name="PE|11">{{PE|11}}, p. 41</ref>

*''See also: [[Entish]] ''[[burárum]]

===Goblin===
''[[Wiktionary:goblin|Goblin]]'' is a folk word which according to ''The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Current English'' is probably derived from the Anglo-French ''[[Wiktionary:gobelin|gobelin]]'' a diminutive of ''gobel'' (cf. ''[[Wiktionary:kobold|kobold]]''). William D.B. Loos notes that ''goblin'' is a Romance-derived word, unlike other Germanic words preferred by [[J.R.R. Tolkien|Tolkien]].<ref>William D.B. Loos, [http://tolkien.slimy.com/tfaq/EnemyMisc.html#Orcs Enemies and Miscellaneous: What was the relationship between Orcs and Goblins?] at [http://tolkien.slimy.com/tfaq/ The Tolkien Frequently Asked Questions List] (accessed 3 July 2011)</ref>

==="Goblin" in Tolkien's languages===
In the [[The Etymologies|''Etymologies'']], the Elvish names used to translate "goblin" derive from root [[RUKU#Other versions|ÓROK]] and are:<ref name="LR379" />

*[[Quenya]]: '''''orko''''' (pl. '''''orqi''''')
*[[Noldorin]]: ''orch'' (pl ''yrch'', archaic ''yrchy''<ref>{{VT|46a}}, p. 7</ref>)
*[[Nandorin|Danian]]: '''''urc''''' (pl. '''''yrc''''')
*[[Doriathrin]]: '''''urch''''' (pl. '''''urchin''''')

In an early linguistic writing, Tolkien translated the [[Gnomish]] word ''Gong'' as "one of a tribe of the orcs. a goblin."<ref name="PE|11" />

==Other versions of the legendarium==
{{Main|Orcs/Origin}}

==Controversy==
Tolkien's Orcs have been a subject of criticism of [[racism]]. Tolkien described Orcs as "squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types".<ref name="L|210">{{L|210}}</ref>

==Other writings==
In ''[[The Father Christmas Letters]]'', goblins appear as the enemies of [[Father Christmas]] and the [[Red Elves]].

==Portrayal in adaptations==
===Orcs===
===Orcs in adaptations===
<gallery mode="traditional" widths="250px" heights="150px">
File:The Lord of the Rings (1978 film) - Orcs.jpg|Orcs in [[The Lord of the Rings (1978 film)|''The Lord of the Rings'' (1978 film)]]
File:The Return of the King (1980 film) - Orcs.jpg|Orcs in [[The Return of the King (1980 film)|''The Return of the King'' (1980 film)]]
File:The Lord of the Rings - The Return of the King - Gothmog with troops.jpg|Orcs in ''[[The Lord of the Rings (film series)]]''
File:The Lord of the Rings- The Treason of Isengard - Ork.jpg|Concept art of an orc in ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Treason of Isengard]]''
File:The Lord of the Rings War in the North - Orc3.jpg|An Orc in [[Fornost]] in ''[[The Lord of the Rings: War in the North]]''
</gallery>

'''2001-2003: [[Pán prsteňov (2001-2003 Slovak radio series)|''Pán prsteňov'' (2001-2003 Slovak radio series)]]:'''
:Due to timing and certain legal issues, the radio series uses the term ''skirt'' (pron. "skeert") and ''skirti'' for an "orc" and "orcs" (a neologism derived from the Czech translation's ''skřet'', ''skřeti'', "goblins"). Some of the orc characters are credited, e.g. [[Grishnakh]] in ''The Two Towers'' is portrayed by Eduard Vitek, and in ''The Return of the King'', a Mordor orc commander whipping a disguised Frodo and Sam into shape is played by Jozef Šimonovič.

'''2007: ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]'':'''
:Orc-kind is a genus that includes the species of Orcs, Goblins, [[Hobgoblins]], [[Half-orcs]], [[Boggarts]], [[Bugans]] and [[Uruk-hai]].

:Orcs are very common in Middle-earth. They are about the size of a man with a hunchback, though some of the sub-races are of larger or smaller stature.

'''2011: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: War in the North]]'':'''
:Orcs are first seen in [[Fornost]], where they immediately attack [[Eradan (video game character)|Eradan]], [[Andriel]] and [[Farin (video game character)|Farin]] as they near the citadel.<ref name="Main">[[The Lord of the Rings: War in the North]], Chapter 1: Fornost, ''Main Gate''</ref> ''Orc warriors'' are stronger then normal Orcs. Some Orcs have been taught [[Magic|sorcery]] by [[Agandaûr]], these are known as ''Orc Sorcerers'''

'''2022: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power]]'':'''
:'''30 September: ''[[Udûn (episode)|Udûn]]'':'''
::[[Adar (The Rings of Power)|Adar]] reveals to [[Galadriel]] that he was one of the [[Moriondor]] and that he supposedly "split open" [[Sauron]] for needlessly sacrificing his Uruk "children" in his pursuit of a power over flesh. During the interrogation, Galadriel and Adar philosophically debate on whether or not Orcs, or Uruks as Adar prefers, are worthy of life. The debate is left open-ended and Adar orchestrates the eruption of [[Mount Doom|Orodruin]], destroying [[Tirharad]] and turning the [[Mordor|Southlands into Mordor]] in order to give his "children" a home where they did not have to fear the [[Sun]].

===Goblins===
===Goblins in adaptations===
<gallery mode="traditional" widths="250px" heights="150px">
File:The Hobbit (1977 film) - Goblins.jpg|Goblins in [[The Hobbit (1977 film)|''The Hobbit'' (1977 film)]]
File:The Lord of the Rings War in the North - Goblins1.jpg|Goblins in the pits of [[Fornost]] in ''[[The Lord of the Rings: War in the North]]''
File:The Hobbit - An Unexpected Journey - Goblins.jpg|Goblins in ''[[The Hobbit (film series)|''The Hobbit'' (film series)]]''
</gallery>

'''2003: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: War of the Ring]]'':'''
:Goblins have been made clearly distinct from Orcs.

'''2006: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth II]]'':'''
:Goblins have been made clearly distinct from Orcs.

'''2007: ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]'':'''
:Goblins are a separate race and can be found in [[Evendim]], [[the Shire]], [[Ered Luin]], [[Bree-land]], [[Lone-lands]], [[North Downs]], [[Misty Mountains]], [[Angmar]] and [[Moria]]. They are small in stature; a little shorter than [[Hobbits]]. In contrast, Orcs are about the size of [[Men]]. Goblins are also weaker than the orcs.

'''2011: ''[[The Lord of the Rings: War in the North]]'':'''
:Goblins first appear in [[Fornost Erain]], where they attack [[Eradan (video game character)|Eradan]], [[Andriel]] and [[Farin (video game character)|Farin]] immediately when they reach the city.<ref name="Main" /> Goblins are weaker than Orcs.

'''2012: ''[[The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey]]'':'''
:Goblins are again made clearly distinct from Orcs in the film series. They are lesser relatives of Orcs; they are smaller (the very large Great Goblin notwithstanding), less powerful, and generally have pale, diseased skin, riddled with warts.

'''2014: ''[[The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies]]'':'''
:A band of "Goblin mercenaries" appear on [[Ravenhill]] during the [[Battle of Five Armies]], but are taken care of by the Dwarves without much trouble.

==See also==
*[[Gongs]], evil beings obscurely related to Orcs that appeared within ''[[The Book of Lost Tales]]''.<ref>{{LT2|Index}}, entry "Gongs"</ref>
*[[:Category:Images of Goblins|Images of Goblins]]

{{references|note}}
[[Category:Orcs| ]]
[[Category:Races]]
[[Category:Servants of Melkor]]
[[Category:Servants of Saruman]]
[[Category:Servants of Sauron]]
[[de:Orks]]
[[fr:encyclo/peuples/orques/orques]]
[[fi:Örkit]]

Crossings of Poros

2025-01-29T12:54:12Z

Erendis: correction of mention

[[File:The Lord of the Rings Online - Folcred and Fastred perish at the Crossings of Poros.jpg|thumb|''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]'' tapestry: Folcred and Fastred perish while fighting Haradrim and Oliphaunts at the Crossings of Poros]]

The '''Crossings of Poros''',<ref name="Map">{{FR|Map}}</ref> also known as the '''Crossing of Poros'''<ref name="TurinII">{{App|Stewards}}, entry for Steward Túrin II, p. 1054</ref> or '''Fords of the Poros''',<ref name="Northmen">{{UT|Northmen}}</ref> marked the point where the [[Harad Road]] passed over the river [[Poros]] from [[Ithilien]] to [[South Gondor]].<ref name="Map" />

==History==
The Fords first entered history in the year {{TA|1944}}, when the enemies of [[Gondor]] made an alliance. [[King of Gondor|King]] [[Ondoher]] of Gondor knew that the [[Wainriders]] in the north and his enemies in the south were preparing to attack Gondor. As a consequence, he divided his forces into a northern army and a southern army and left the southern army under the command of [[Eärnil II|Eärnil]], a member of the royal house and a descendant of King [[Telumehtar]] to deal with the enemies approaching from [[Near Harad]]<ref>{{UT|8e}}, note 14</ref> in the south. Eärnil intentionally left the Fords undefended and positioned his troops in a camp about forty miles north of the Fords in [[South Ithilien]]<ref name="Northmen" /> and achieved a great victory in South Ithilien and destroyed the army of the Harad, which had crossed the river Poros.<ref>{{App|Gondor}}, entry for King Ondoher, p. 1049</ref>

In the days of [[Ruling Stewards|Steward]] [[Túrin II]] of [[Gondor]] the [[Haradrim]] had occupied [[South Gondor]] and there were many armed conflicts along the river Poros.<ref name="TurinII" /> In {{TA|2885}} emissaries of [[Sauron]] stirred up the Haradrim who crossed the Poros invaded Ithilien<ref name="TA2885">{{App|TA}}, entry for the year 2885, p. 1088</ref> with a large army.<ref name="TurinII" /> When King [[Folcwine]] of [[Rohan]] heard of the invasion he fulfilled the [[Oath of Eorl]]<ref name="TurinII" /> and sent many men led by his twin sons [[Folcred]] and [[Fastred (son of Folcwine)|Fastred]] to help Túrin II.<ref name="Folcwine">{{App|Mark}}, entry for King Folcwine, p. 1069</ref>

Túrin II defeated the Haradrim invaders with the help of the troops from Rohan in a [[Battle of the Crossings of Poros|battle]] at the Crossings of Poros,<ref name="TurinII" /> but Folcred and Fastred fell side by side in battle in Ithilien.<ref name="Folcwine" /> They were buried together high upon the shore of the river Poros according to the customs of their [[Rohirrim|people]] in a burial mound, which was called ''[[Haudh in Gwanûr]]''. The mound stood there for a long time and the enemies of Gondor were afraid to pass the mound.<ref name="TurinII" />

==Portrayal in adaptations==
'''[[2012]]: ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]'':''':
:A tapestry depicting Folcred and Fastred's last stand is found in [[Meduseld]] and can be acquired for use in player's houses.

{{References}}
[[Category:Fords]]
[[Category:Gondor]]
[[de:Übergang des Poros]]
[[fi:Porosin Kahlaamo]]

Crossings of Poros

2025-01-29T12:53:38Z

Erendis: correction of mention

[[File:The Lord of the Rings Online - Folcred and Fastred perish at the Crossings of Poros.jpg|thumb|''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]'' tapestry: Folcred and Fastred perish while fighting Haradrim and Oliphaunts at the Crossings of Poros]]

The '''Crossings of Poros''',<ref name="Map">{{FR|Map}}</ref> also known as the '''Crossing of the Poros'''<ref name="TurinII">{{App|Stewards}}, entry for Steward Túrin II, p. 1054</ref> or '''Fords of Poros''',<ref name="Northmen">{{UT|Northmen}}</ref> marked the point where the [[Harad Road]] passed over the river [[Poros]] from [[Ithilien]] to [[South Gondor]].<ref name="Map" />

==History==
The Fords first entered history in the year {{TA|1944}}, when the enemies of [[Gondor]] made an alliance. [[King of Gondor|King]] [[Ondoher]] of Gondor knew that the [[Wainriders]] in the north and his enemies in the south were preparing to attack Gondor. As a consequence, he divided his forces into a northern army and a southern army and left the southern army under the command of [[Eärnil II|Eärnil]], a member of the royal house and a descendant of King [[Telumehtar]] to deal with the enemies approaching from [[Near Harad]]<ref>{{UT|8e}}, note 14</ref> in the south. Eärnil intentionally left the Fords undefended and positioned his troops in a camp about forty miles north of the Fords in [[South Ithilien]]<ref name="Northmen" /> and achieved a great victory in South Ithilien and destroyed the army of the Harad, which had crossed the river Poros.<ref>{{App|Gondor}}, entry for King Ondoher, p. 1049</ref>

In the days of [[Ruling Stewards|Steward]] [[Túrin II]] of [[Gondor]] the [[Haradrim]] had occupied [[South Gondor]] and there were many armed conflicts along the river Poros.<ref name="TurinII" /> In {{TA|2885}} emissaries of [[Sauron]] stirred up the Haradrim who crossed the Poros invaded Ithilien<ref name="TA2885">{{App|TA}}, entry for the year 2885, p. 1088</ref> with a large army.<ref name="TurinII" /> When King [[Folcwine]] of [[Rohan]] heard of the invasion he fulfilled the [[Oath of Eorl]]<ref name="TurinII" /> and sent many men led by his twin sons [[Folcred]] and [[Fastred (son of Folcwine)|Fastred]] to help Túrin II.<ref name="Folcwine">{{App|Mark}}, entry for King Folcwine, p. 1069</ref>

Túrin II defeated the Haradrim invaders with the help of the troops from Rohan in a [[Battle of the Crossings of Poros|battle]] at the Crossings of Poros,<ref name="TurinII" /> but Folcred and Fastred fell side by side in battle in Ithilien.<ref name="Folcwine" /> They were buried together high upon the shore of the river Poros according to the customs of their [[Rohirrim|people]] in a burial mound, which was called ''[[Haudh in Gwanûr]]''. The mound stood there for a long time and the enemies of Gondor were afraid to pass the mound.<ref name="TurinII" />

==Portrayal in adaptations==
'''[[2012]]: ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]'':''':
:A tapestry depicting Folcred and Fastred's last stand is found in [[Meduseld]] and can be acquired for use in player's houses.

{{References}}
[[Category:Fords]]
[[Category:Gondor]]
[[de:Übergang des Poros]]
[[fi:Porosin Kahlaamo]]

House of Hador

2025-01-17T10:47:52Z

Erendis: add a surname

{{sources}}
{{disambig-more|Hador|[[Hador (disambiguation)]]}}
{{Noble House infobox
| name=House of Hador
| image = LorenzoCB - Hador device.png
| caption=
| othernames='''House:''' ''Bar Hador'' ([[Sindarin|S]]) Third House of the Edain '''People:''' Edain of the North, Folk of Marach, Hadorians, Men of Dor-lómin, Men of Hador's House, Men of Hithlum, Men of the North, People of Hador, Stawheads<ref>{{CH|4}}, p. 68</ref>
| founder=[[Marach]]
| leader=Briefly the [[Lord of Dor-lómin|Lords of Dor-lómin]]
| location=[[Estolad]], [[Hithlum]] (especially [[Dor-lómin]]), later [[Númenor]]
| affiliation=[[House of Fingolfin]]
| rivalry=
| destroyed=Last formal leader of this people, [[Húrin Thalion]], ruled until {{FA|472}}, but descendants of this people survived down into the [[Fourth Age]]
| language=[[Taliska]], [[Sindarin]]
| members=[[Hador]], [[Galdor]], [[Huor]], [[Eärendil]], [[Elrond]]
| race=[[Edain]]
| distinctions=
| height=Tall
| hair=Mostly golden
| skin=Fair
| clothing=
| weapons=
| heirlooms=[[Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin]], [[Dramborleg]]
| gallery=Hadorians
}}

The '''House of Hador''', also known as the '''Third House of the Edain''', was the last House of the [[Edain]] to cross the [[Ered Luin]] into [[Beleriand]] during the late [[First Age]].

The followers of [[Marach]] and his descendants would become the '''Edain of the North''', '''Folk of Marach''', '''Hadorians''', '''Men of Dor-lómin''', '''Men of Hador's House''', '''Men of Hithlum''', '''Men of the North''', and the '''People of Hador'''.
==Origin==
The [[Men]] of the folk of Marach descended from the tribes of Men who abandoned [[Hildórien]] for the [[West (disambiguation)|West]]. They were at war with the [[Men of Darkness|Men]] who fell under the [[Shadow]], and were pursued by them.<ref name="DM">{{PM|Atani}}</ref> They followed a road around northern [[Rhûn]] where they met some [[Dwarves]].<ref>{{WJ|Dwarves}}</ref> At the shores of the [[Sea of Rhûn]] a [[House of Bëor|small part was separated]]. The Greater Folk, the ancestors of the folk of Marach, came later in the north-east woods near the shores. They crafted boats and could sail the insland Sea, and seemed to have been related to the ancestors of the [[Northmen]].<ref>{{UT|Cirion}}</ref>

That folk was numerous and came in three hosts each around 2000 adult men. They crossed [[Eriador]] armed and equipped, with many [[horses]], some [[donkeys]] and flocks of [[sheep]] and [[goats]]. They reached the feet of the [[Ered Luin]] a year before all others but didn't attempt to find passes. Their mounted scouts attempted to find a way round them, and did so from the south.<ref name="DM" />

In {{FA|313}}, the first host entered [[Beleriand]] from the south and were followed by the rest of the folk of Marach in the same year.<ref name="DM" /> They were the largest of the Houses and also the most warlike and they frightened the native [[Green-elves]] who inhabited the forested slopes of the mountains and so were bidden to progress to Estolad as the [[House of Bëor]] had done. Of all the Houses of the Edain the Hadorians remained longest in Estolad (perhaps due to the immense size of the House) but became close allies with the Noldorin [[House of Fingolfin]] who reigned in [[Hithlum]]. Under the rule of [[Magor]], grandson of Marach the House removed to the southern slopes of the [[Ered Wethrin]].

==History==
It was during the reign of Hador in {{FA|416}} though that the folk of Marach were finally granted permanent lands in the form of the fief of [[Dor-lómin]] within Hithlum. In recognition of the first lord of their new realm the House became known as the House of Hador. As a gift from his new lords, Hador was given the [[Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin|Dragon Helm]] by Fingon, which became a great heirloom of the House, borne by all its lords save Húrin. They enjoyed much splendor under the [[House of Fingolfin]], and their warriors held [[Eithel Sirion]] and fought beside the Noldor in the [[Wars of Beleriand]].

Hador died during the [[Dagor Bragollach]] alongside his younger son [[Gundor]]. So Lordship of the House passed to Hador's older son [[Galdor (Lord of Dor-lómin)|Galdor]] leading the House of Hador in the troubled times that followed the Dagor Bragollach. During those times the House united with some of the folk of the [[House of Beor]] who had fled from [[Dorthonion]]. Galdor's wife was of the [[Haladin]] and their sons, [[Húrin]] and [[Huor]], were sent away to Brethil when they were lost and spent time with [[Turgon]] in [[Gondolin]]. Galdor himself was slain at [[Eithel Sirion]] in {{FA|462|n}}, thus Húrin became the third Lord of Dor-lómin.

During Húrin's tenure as lord, Hithlum was largely made safe, owing largely to the great reclamation of lost lands by the [[Union of Maedhros]] of which the men and elves of Hithlum were participants. This gathered steam until the plans were made for another assault on [[Morgoth]] in [[Angband]]- the battle that would become known as [[Nirnaeth Arnoediad]]. Húrin mustered all the men that Dor-lómin could provide to supplement Fingon's host in the west. The result was devastating for the House of Hador and their remnant covered the retreat of Turgon. They refused to leave and heroically drew up their lines behind [[Rivil]], killing hundreds of [[Orcs]] and [[Trolls]] before their entire host was killed to a man in a final last stand.

===Later history===
Hithlum, defenceless and beaten was thus taken by the treacherous [[Swarthy Men]] who had been so instrumental in Morgoth's victory without any notable resistance of what remained of the people of the House of Hador.

From this point the lives of the people of Hador became one of marginal slavery. The House of Hador fared badly under the [[Incomers]]; brutally suppressed, their lands were taken and their women forced into marriage with the new despot-lords of Hithlum. The nobility of the House went into hiding or killed trying to flee. Húrin's son and heir (and officially now Lord of the House) [[Túrin]] was too young to lead and so was sent away to [[Doriath]] for his safety by his [[Morwen|mother]] and Huor's son Tuor was only born the year of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad and so was similarly guarded; fostered by the [[Sindar|grey elves]] that still inhabited the mountains of [[Mithrim]]. Those that could escape in the years that followed did-so fleeing to those havens of the elves that still stood but the House of Hador ceased to be as a coherent entity in much the same manner as the [[House of Bëor]] had suffered in the aftermath of the Dagor Bragollach.

None the less, when the surviving Edain were granted the gift-land of [[Númenor]] the House of Hador was still the greatest in size of all the Houses and so made up the greater portion of the [[Númenóreans]].
[[Hatholdir]] was a noble who was descendant of the House of Hador.<ref>{{UT|Wife}}</ref>

It was believed in [[Gondor]] (somewhat inaccurately<ref name="DM" /><ref>{{PM|XNotes}}, #61</ref>) that some of the sons of the House who refused the call to [[Elenna]], became the direct ancestors of the [[Northmen]]; explaining thus the affinity the [[Rohirrim]] had with the [[Gondorians]].<ref>{{TT|IV5}}</ref>

==Physical characteristics==
[[File:ForeverMedhok - Hador.png|thumb|''Hador'' by [[:Category:Images by ForeverMedhok|ForeverMedhok]]]]
The people of the House of Hador tended to be hardy and enduring in cold and distances, strong, tall, bold and steadfast (second to those of the First House), swift in body, with blue eyes, fair skin, and golden hair; they were noble and generous, ready in mind and quick to anger and laughter. There were some among them who were dark-haired (a trait sometimes inherited from the [[House of Beor]]).,<ref name="DM" />{{rp|307}}<ref>{{S|Men}}</ref> and those members showed an interest in crafts and lore.<ref>{{PM|XNotes}}, #43</ref> They were marked as being the tallest men inhabitants of Beleriand, even taller than the Elves.<ref>{{LR|Quenta}}, p. 276</ref> They were the largest of the Houses and also the most warlike.

Their features and traits were such, that young members of the House were almost indistinguishable from the Eldar, a fact that was remembered in elven songs ever after. The swift fading of this condition was a grief and a mystery to the Eldar.<ref>{{PM|XNotes}}, #47</ref>

Their language was closely related with that of the Folk of Bëor, but their dialect, the main dialect of [[Taliska]] which became [[Adûnaic]], was more uniform with fewer alien influences.<ref name="DM" /> As [[Elf-friends]] they also spoke [[Sindarin]].

==Other names==
The [[Sindarin]] name for "House of Hador" was '''''Bar Hador'''''.<ref>{{MR|P5I}}, p. 373. The first word appears in the [[lenition|lenited]] compound form ''e-mbar'' ("''of'' the House")</ref>

==Genealogy==
A dagger symbol '†' signifies those who did not die of old age. A name preceded by '#*' indicates a ruler of the house, with the number specifying the order.

{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | MAR | | | | | | | | | | | | |MAR=1* [[Marach]] ''{{FA|282}} - {{FA|376|n}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | |,|-|^|-|.| | | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | ZIM |y| MAL | | IML | | | | | | | | | | |ZIM=[[Zimrahin]] ''unknown''|MAL=2* [[Malach]] ''{{FA|307|n}} - {{FA|398|n}}''|IML=[[Imlach]] ''b. {{FA|310|n}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | |,|-|^|-|.| | | |!| | | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | BEL |V| ADA | | MAG | | AML | | | | | | | | | | |BEL=[[Belemir]] ''b. {{FA|339|n}}''|ADA=[[Adanel]] ''b. {{FA|339|n}}''|MAG=3* [[Magor]] ''b. {{FA|341|n}}''|AML=[[Amlach]] ''b. {{FA|337|n}}''}}
{{familytree | | | |:| | | | | |!| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | BEO | | | | HAT | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |BEO=''[[House of Bëor]]''|HAT=4* [[Hathol]] ''b. {{FA|365|n}}''}}
{{familytree | | | |:| | | | | |!| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | HAD |y| GIL | | | | | | | | | | |HAD=5* [[Hador]] ''{{FA|390|n}} - {{FA|455|n}}''|GIL=[[Gildis]] ''unknown''}}
{{familytree | | | | | |,|-|-|-|v|-|^|-|-|-|-|-|.| | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | HAL |V| GLO | | GAL |y| HAR | | GUN | | | | | | |HAL=[[Haldir (Chieftain of the Haladin)|Haldir]] ''{{FA|414|n}} - {{FA|472|n}}''|GLO=[[Glóredhel]] ''{{FA|415|n}} - {{FA|472|n}}''|GAL=6* [[Galdor (Lord of Dor-lómin)|Galdor]] ''{{FA|417|n}} - {{FA|462|n}}''|HAR=[[Hareth]] ''b. {{FA|420|n}}''|GUN=[[Gundor]] ''{{FA|419|n}} - {{FA|455|n}}''}}
{{familytree | | | |:| | | | | | | |)|-|-|-|.| | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | HAL | | MOR |y| HUR | | HUO |y| RIA | | | | |HAL=''[[House of Haleth]]''|MOR=[[Morwen]] ''{{FA|441|n}} - {{FA|501|n}}''|HUR=7* [[Húrin]] ''{{FA|441|n}} - {{FA|502|n}}''|HUO=[[Huor]] ''{{FA|444|n}} - {{FA|472|n}}|RIA=[[Rían]] ''{{FA|450|n}} - {{FA|472|n}}''}}
{{familytree | | | |:| |,|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|.| | | |!| | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | TUR | | LAL | | NIE | | TUO |y| IDR | | |TUR=[[Túrin]] ''{{FA|464|n}} - {{FA|499|n}}''|LAL=[[Lalaith]] ''{{FA|466|n}} - {{FA|469|n}}''|NIE=[[Nienor]] ''{{FA|473|n}} - {{FA|499|n}}''|TUO=[[Tuor]] ''b. {{FA|472|n}}''|IDR=[[Idril]] ''b. {{YT}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | |L|~|~|~|~|~|~|~|J| | | | | |!| | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | EAR |y| ELW |EAR=[[Eärendil]] ''b. {{FA|503|n}}''|ELW=[[Elwing]] ''b. {{FA|503}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |,|-|^|-|.| |}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ROS | | RON |ROS=[[Elros]] ''{{FA|532}} - {{SA|442}}''|RON=[[Elrond]] ''born {{FA|532}}''}}
{{familytree/end}}
{{references}}
[[Category:House of Hador| ]]
[[Category:Mannish noble houses|Hador]]
[[de:Haus Hador]]
[[fr:encyclo:peuples:hommes:peuple de hador]]
[[fi:Hadorin kansa]]
[[fi:Hadorin Huone]]

Talk:White Lady (disambiguation)

2025-01-14T16:02:44Z

Erendis: /* Erendis, the White Lady of Emerië */ new section

I disagree with this merge. This page is for disambiguation because multiple female characters have the title '''White Lady'''. It would be nice if it was referenced, but it serves its purpose and would not make sense solely on the page for White Lady of Rohan.

If anything, [[White Lady of Rohan]] should simply be merged with the Éowyn page under 'Other Names' or something. Would that be okay? --[[User:Elf-esteem|Elf-esteem]] 05:35, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

:Agree. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 17:04, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

== Erendis, the White Lady of Emerië ==

Erendis shoun'd be part of this disambigation ?

She's named "the White Lady of Emerië" in UT 2-2 [[User:Erendis|Erendis]] ([[User talk:Erendis|talk]]) 16:02, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Samwise Gamgee

2025-01-04T15:11:46Z

Erendis: /* Pronounciation of "samwise" */ new section

Should the infobox image be replaced? It seems to be more of based on the films than the novels. In the [[Tolkien Gateway:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] it says: ''"If available, place book illustrations first in the article, especially in infoboxes."'' --[[User:DoctorWellington|DoctorWellington]] 23:52, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

:How about [[:File:Ebe Kastein - Samwise.jpg|File:Ebe Kastein - Samwise.jpg]]?--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 22:47, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

::I'd prefer [[:File:Olanda Fong-Surdenas - Samwise the Brave.jpg]]. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 11:10, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

:::Hi DoctorWellington. Is there a reason you ignored my suggestion and opted for the one that is a film-pastiche? --{{User:Mith/sig}} 16:48, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

::::I didn't really have much of a preference when I viewed them both. If you want me to change it, or you would like to change it, then it is fine by me. I didn't realize that the image was based on the films. My apologies. --[[User:DoctorWellington|DoctorWellington]] 22:44, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

::::For now I think I'll stay out of this and let others decide what image to use. --[[User:DoctorWellington|DoctorWellington]] 23:45, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

==Expanding it==
Is there a reason why Sam's page needs to be expanded? Why is that box present? It seems long enough to me.[[User:SingingOrc|SingingOrc]] 03:13, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

:A lot of those tags were added back when the pages did need expansion but for one reason or another were never removed. I'd agree the tag could be removed, but it might need admin approval.[[User:Turiannerevarine|Turiannerevarine]] 18:01, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

::Actually, I admit this is missing a few things (considering we are talking about Sam Gamgee). I will try to lengthen and organize it if I can. [[User:SingingOrc|SingingOrc]] 12:22, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

== Pronounciation of "samwise" ==

How do you think we should pronounce "Samwise" ? because the name refers to "sam" + "wis" (old english) and , so "wise" should be prounonced [waiz] (as in english "wise") or [wisɛ] (as in old english) ? [[User:Erendis|Erendis]] ([[User talk:Erendis|talk]]) 15:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Rohanese

2024-12-15T11:40:00Z

Erendis: /* Rohanese */ Reply

I have heard recently that Rohirric is supposed to be spelled ''Rohiric'', with one "r", because while ''Rohirrim'' has the "r" in both the ''-rim'' and the root word, it is not so with Rohiric. Could anyone find any information on that statement? I think I read it in a forum or something. I don't believe Tolkien actually spelled it out in his books. --[[User:Narfil Palùrfalas|Narfil Palùrfalas]] 22:14, 22 June 2006 (EDT)

:Helge Fauskanger writes ''Rohirric'' at [http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/mannish.htm Ardalambion's] page about "Various Mannish Tongues". --[[User:Earendilyon|Earendilyon]] 04:21, 23 June 2006 (EDT)

==Rewrite==
It's a mess, unsourced, and very out-of-universe. Also, in light of above discussion: [http://lalaith.vpsurf.de/Tolkien/How_to_speak_Rohirric.html] -- {{User:Ederchil/sig}} 14:45, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

==Rohanese==
In PE22:159 (c. 1969), Tolkien uses "Rohanese" in the sentence "''Eorlingas'' must be an interpretation (of the 20th C[entury]) of some other name in Rohanese. The real word was ''þuron'' (rel[ated] to Elvish ''tur-'' ?), ''þorunahim''. [...]" This article notes that his usage in ''The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor'' (VT42:8) "is not clear by the context if the word is the name of a language, or simply an adjective." Do others (as I do) think that its usage in PE22:159 leans more towards the "name of a language" nuance? [[User:Unweg|Unweg]] 02:07, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

:Yes. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 08:28, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

::Tolkien also uses the word "Rohanese" a couple of times in Light and Dark (TNoMe) in context that clearly denotes the language and not just some adjective. Based on this I take the initiative to move the page to a new name. '''edit''': ok I can't move it as there is already Rohanese as a redirect, but please some admin have it in mind. [[User:Sage|Sage]] ([[User talk:Sage|talk]]) 09:53, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

:::Tolkien only used the term "Rohanese" twice in the context of the language in writings cited in the chapter Light and Dark in The Nature of Middle-earth. On the contrary he used it many times consistently with only once exception his his guite that he wrote for translators to help in translating The Lord of the Rings into other languages and there explicitly said right at the beginning that the abbreviation "R. = Rohan: the language used in Rohan" and also used it several times in a manuscript for appendix F. I am not an Ent, but I am against taking a "hasty" decision and using the term "Rohanese" as the name of the page about the language, which he only used rarely and or in writings, which were not primarily about many words in that language. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhorahil]] ([[User talk:Akhorahil|talk]]) 18:27, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
::::Should we replace "rohirric" by "rohanese" when we see it in other articles ? [[User:Erendis|Erendis]] ([[User talk:Erendis|talk]]) 11:40, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

==eohpeg(e)n==

Under 'translation' it gives 'eohpeg(e)n' as the proper OE form of 'Éothain', but surely this should be 'eoh''þ''eg(e)n' with a thorn (þ), which represents the same sound as MoE 'th'? I would edit it myself but I would like to check if the mistake is in the source itself or if it was wrongly transcribed. [[User:Deor|Deor]] ([[User talk:Deor|talk]]) 18:15, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

:By which I mean, I think someone with access to the source should check, because I do not have it. [[User:Deor|Deor]] ([[User talk:Deor|talk]]) 18:19, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Lonely Mountain

2024-12-12T14:29:25Z

Erendis: /* History */ wrong time for the building of Dale : it was built under Thror's présence, not Thrain I

{{cleanup}}
{{disambig-more|Lonely Mountain|[[Lonely Mountain (disambiguation)]]}}
{{location infobox
| name=Lonely Mountain
| image=J.R.R. Tolkien - Smaug flies round the Mountain.jpg
| caption="Smaug flies round the Mountain" by [[J.R.R. Tolkien]]
| pronun=
| othernames=''Erebor'' ([[Sindarin|S]])
| location=North-east of [[Rhovanion]]
| type=Mountain
| description=A large mountain apart from any other ranges.
| regions=
| towns=
| inhabitants=Generally, [[Dwarves]]. It was once occupied by [[Smaug]] the [[Dragon]].
| created=
| destroyed=
| events=[[Sack of Erebor]], [[Siege of Erebor]]
| gallery=the Lonely Mountain
}}

The '''Lonely Mountain''' ([[Sindarin|S.]] '''''Erebor''''') was a large mountain in the north-east of [[Rhovanion]]. It was the source of the river [[River Running|Running]] and a major [[Dwarves|Dwarven]] [[Dwarf realms|stronghold]] of the [[Kingdom under the Mountain]] at the end of the [[Third Age]] and well into the [[Fourth Age|Fourth Age]].

==History==
The [[Longbeards]] had control of Erebor since at least the early [[Second Age]].<ref>{{PM|Relations}}</ref>

With the awakening of [[Durin's Bane]] in the capital of [[Moria|Khazad-dûm]], [[Thráin I]] led a group of Dwarves to Erebor. Once there, the dwarves dug caves and halls to form an underground city, thus establishing the [[Kingdom under the Mountain]] in {{TA|1999}}.<ref name="ta">{{App|TA}}, p. 1087</ref> During Thráin's rule many riches were mined from the depths of the mountain, including the [[Arkenstone]].<ref>[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'', [[Appendix A]], "Durin's Folk", p. 1072</ref>

Thráin's son, [[Thorin I]], abandoned the Mountain in {{TA|2210}} in favour of the [[Grey Mountains]], which were largely unexplored and richer. Thorin I also hoped to reunite the [[Durin's Folk|Longbeards]]. These mountains were likely larger than Erebor; but after the [[war of the Dwarves and Dragons]] in {{TA|2590}}, King [[Thrór]] led a group back to the Lonely Mountain and re-established it as the capital of Durin's folk, though some would follow his brother [[Grór]] into the [[Iron Hills]].<ref name="ta" />

Erebor grew prosperous once more, and the increased prosperity of the region led to the establishment of the town of [[Dale]],<ref>[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], [[The Hobbit]], [[An Unexpected Party]]</ref> which was built by [[Men of Dale|Men]] between Erebor's slopes. The Dwarves mined and made larger tunnels and halls than those from their previous time in the Lonely Mountain. The Dwarves of Erebor were treated with Reverence by the Men of Dale. The Market and relationship between these two settlements was the wonder of the North. However, the happiness of this time did not last long.

===[[Sack of Erebor]]===
[[File:Donato Giancola - The Coming of Smaug.jpg|left|thumb|''The Coming of Smaug'' by [[Donato Giancola]]]]
The great dragon [[Smaug]] had lust for the Dwarven riches and had heard of the Prosperous Kingdom of Erebor. In {{TA|2770}} he descended on the mountain, driving out the Dwarves and destroying the town of [[Dale]].<ref>{{App|TA}}, p. 1088</ref> Afterward, Lonely Mountain was empty for almost two hundred years. Its sole inhabitant was Smaug, who slept in the innermost chamber on a great pile of wealth. None dared approached it while the Dragon lived.

In the year {{TA|2941}}, with Gandalf's council and planning, King [[Thorin II]] and a small company of friends and family actually made it to the Lonely Mountain. After the Dragon Smaug had realized that the Dwarves had been helped by the [[Lake-men]] he went to their town of [[Lake-town|Esgaroth]] intent on destroying them, only to be killed by a man named [[Bard]].<ref name=":0">{{App|TA}}, p. 1089</ref>

===Return of the Longbeards===
With the help of a [[Hobbits|Hobbit]] named [[Bilbo Baggins]], Thorin and company were able to retake the city and the treasure, thus allowing Thorin II to proclaim himself [[King under the Mountain]]. But, now succumbing to [[Dragon Sickness]], Thorin refused to give any of the treasure to the Men of Esgaroth. For compensation for the fallen Men of [[Esgaroth]] and [[Elves of Mirkwood]], [[Thorin and Company]] were placed under siege (not to be confused with the later [[Siege of Erebor]].)<ref name=":0" />
[[File:Matt Stewart - The Battle Under the Mountain.jpg|thumb|''The Battle Under the Mountain'' by [[Matt Stewart]]]]
Things nearly came to blows when Thorin's cousin [[Dáin Ironfoot]] (Grór's grandson) arrived as aid to his kinsman and nearly went to battle against the besiegers. But Gandalf interceded and warned them all of a great host of [[Orcs]] and [[Wargs]] coming to take the mountain. So the Elves, Men, and Dwarves made an alliance, and fought the bloody [[Battle of Five Armies|Battle of Five Armies]] against their foes in the valley before the gate.<ref name=":0" />

In the end, the defenders were victorious against the Orcs and Wargs, thanks to the late arrivals of the [[Eagles]] and [[Beorn]]. Though the battle was won, Thorin was mortally wounded. Finally, after many years of longing, Dáin took up the kingship of Durin's folk and returned the Longbeards to the Lonely Mountain, restoring Erebor to its former glory.<ref name=":0" />

The Longbeards would set about the task of rebuilding their kingdom, which included various improvements to the Mountain itself. [[Gloin]] would tell [[Frodo Baggins]] of creations such as towers built on the Mountain, and roads dug deep underground.<ref>{{FR|Meetings}}, p. 229</ref> Yet neither the Lonely Mountain nor its occupants would escape the eye of the great [[Sauron|Shadow]] that rose in the last years of the Third Age.

During the [[War of the Ring]], at the same time [[Minas Tirith]] was besieged, an army of [[Easterlings]] under [[Sauron]]'s rule invaded the [[Kingdom of Dale]] after [[Brand]] was driven back to Dale and Erebor. The Dwarves aided the [[Men of Dale]] who fought in the [[Battle of Dale|Battle of Dale]] at the feet of the Mountain for three days, before King [[Brand]] and King Dáin were killed at its very gates on [[17 March]] [[Third Age 3019|T.A. 3019]], forcing the Men and Dwarves to retreat into the mountain. They held out for several days until word reached the ears of the Easterlings that the great hosts of Sauron in the south had been defeated, causing them to despair and lose hope. When the besieged saw this they came forth from the Lonely Mountain and attacked their enemy, driving them from Dale across the river Running.<ref>{{App|TA}}, The Great Years, p. 1089</ref>

Erebor and Dale continued to prosper well into the [[Fourth Age]], with it still prospering and going strong even after the Longbeards reclaimed [[Khazad-dûm]].

==Geography==
{{Sources}}[[File:Jef Murray - The Lonely Mountain 2.jpg|thumb|''The Lonely Mountain'' by [[Jef Murray]]]]
The Lonely Mountain was possibly 3,500 meters tall and was star-shaped, with six ridges radiating as spurs from the peak. which was snow-capped at spring. Geologically, it was rich in metals and jewels.<ref>[[Karen Fonstad]], ''[[The Atlas of Middle-earth]]''</ref>

The south-western spur contained [[Ravenhill]] housing a Dwarven guardpost.<ref name=":1">[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], ''[[The Hobbit]]'', "[[Not at Home]]"</ref> Between the two western spurs and behind an overhanging cliff, there was a narrow vale which was the exit of the [[Back Door]].<ref name=":2">[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], ''[[The Hobbit]]'', "[[On the Doorstep]]"</ref> Rough steps ascended to the top of the southern ridge along a narrow ledge turning east behind a boulder into a steep bay.

Inside, the mountain was dug with passages and tunnels leading to cellars and halls and mansions such as the great chamber of Thrór near the Front Gate. A secret tunnel led to the "bottom-most cellar".

The main entrance into the mountain was the [[Front Gate|Gate of Erebor]] on the south side, opening onto a valley between two great spurs of the mountain. The [[River Running]] sprang from beneath the mountain and issued from the [[Front Gate]], forming a waterfall that fell into the valley below.<ref>[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], ''[[The Hobbit]]'', "[[Thrór's Map#The illustration of the Map|Thrór's Map]]"</ref>

Inside the gate was a broad paved road that went alongside the river in a wide curve leading into the mountain. Not very far from the entrance was the [[Great Chamber of Thrór]], where feasts and councils were held.<ref name=":1" />

In the Lower Halls, there was a vast chamber called the [[Great Hall of Thráin]] at the root of the mountain.<ref name=":1" /><ref>[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], ''[[The Hobbit]]'', "[[Inside Information]]"</ref> From there, a secret passageway led to a hidden door in the western side of the mountain. The [[Back Door]] was invisible from the outside except on [[Durin's Day]], when the light of the setting sun would reveal the keyhole.<ref name=":2" />

==Etymology==
{{Pronounce|Erebor.mp3|Ardamir}}
''Erebor'' is the [[Sindarin]] translation of "Lonely Mountain" and can be analyzed as ''[[ereb]]'' ("lonely" or "isolated")<ref>[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], [[Christopher Tolkien]] (ed.), ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', "Appendix: Elements in Quenya and Sindarin Names", entry ''[[er]]''</ref> and ''[[orod|or(od)]]'' ("mountain").<ref>[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], [[Christopher Tolkien]] (ed.), ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', "Appendix: Elements in Quenya and Sindarin Names", entry ''orod''</ref>

==Portrayal in adaptations==
===The Lonely Mountain in adaptations===
<gallery mode="traditional" widths="200px" heights="150px">
File:The Hobbit - The Desolation of Smaug - Erebor.jpg|The Lonely Mountain, as it appeared in [[The Hobbit (film series)|''The Hobbit'' film trilogy]]
File:The Lord of the Rings Online - Lonely Mountain.jpg|The Lonely Mountain in ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]''
</gallery>

'''2013: ''[[The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug]]'':'''
:The Dwarves enter when the Dragon is still inside. When Smaug notices them, they lead him to the smithies where they make him start them up, so they can smelt gold. This gold they cast in a giant mold, making a giant golden statue. They remove the mold and, because it did not yet dry, the hot gold flows towards Smaug, severly wounding him. Wanting to take revenge, he flies towards [[Lake town]].

'''2018: ''[[The Lord of the Rings Online]]'':'''
:After a minor appearance depicting the [[Siege of Erebor]], Erebor proper was added in 2018 as part of [[Eryn Lasgalen]] and the [[Dale]]-lands. After the breaking of the siege, it is now ruled by King [[Thorin Stonehelm]] who must deal with some of the enemy's army still remaining near his lands. Other than the main hall of Erebor, players can also visit the living quarters, the burial tombs as well as several hidden chambers within the Mountain.

{{references}}
{{companyroute}}{{durinskings}}
[[Category:Mountains]]
[[Category:Mines]]
[[Category:Rhovanion]]
[[de:Erebor]]
[[fr:encyclo/geographie/reliefs/rhovanion/erebor]]
[[fi:Erebor]]

Talk:Dale

2024-12-12T14:20:30Z

Erendis: /* date for building of the town "Dale" */ Reply

When the three Hobbit movies have come out the "Portrayal in Adaptations" will need to be updated. --[[User:Gamling|Gamling]] 22:50, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I would like this to be used as featured article any suggestions on what to do to article to help it conform to a higher standards
[[User:Neumanjames 2010|Throrin Longbeard]] 11:01, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

:This isn't really the place to discuss this, but I think Portrayal in Adaptations and Etymology sections need sources. I think the History section could be better fleshed out (and sub-divided). Could be a bit of a better mention of the peoples and rulers, as well. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 15:02, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

==Merge?==

Should the two articles for Dale be merged?--[[User:Kulid123|Kulid123]] 19:38, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

:I agree that the Dale page and the Dale (Kingdom) page should be merged so that only a page called Dale remains. In my opinion, there is no extra value in having a separate Dale (Kingdom) page, because the content of both pages will be virtually identical. The only information about the realm of Dale we have that does not cover the town or the area of the later town is that the realm of Dale extended south and east of Lake-town at the end of the Third Age at the time of King Brand and that the enemies that threatened the borders later crossed the Carnen and drove back the forces of Dale. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhôrahil]] ([[User talk:Akhorahil|talk]]) 09:10, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
::I also think that the two pages should be merged into one.[[User:Dour1234|Dour1234]] ([[User talk:Dour1234|talk]]) 11:23, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
:::I agree with merging them as well. [[User:MOONBOLT|MOONBOLT]] ([[User talk:MOONBOLT|talk]]) 21:13, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
::::I also agree. --[[Special:Contributions/Mord|Mord]] 03:55, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

:::::To copy/paste my comment from Discord (again):
:::::"I fail to see much reason why 'Dale' and 'Kingdom of Dale' should be separate articles. Best reason I can think of is that 'Dale' should only refer to the city, while 'Kingdom of Dale' should refer to Dale in the broader sense of a wider region (think 'Venice the city' vs 'Venice the republic').
:::::Even so, for practical reasons I'm 100% for the merge." - [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 19:36, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

==date for building of the town "Dale"==

The article says that Dale (the town) has been built under Thror's presence in Erebor and before, the population was in the valley where Dale would be built. I suppose that you do this to solve what seems to be (or is ?) a contradiction between 2 texts :

In the Hobbit chap 1 : Thorin says "my grandfather [=Thror] was King under the Mountain again and treated with great reverence by the mortal men, who lived to the South, and were gradually spreading up the Running River as far as the valley overshadowed by the Mountain. '''They built the merry town of Dale there in those days.'''" dated between 2590 and 2770 TA

And in Unfinished Tales 2nd Age 3rd chap : "As for the Northmen, a few, it is said, fled over the Celduin (River Running) '''and were merged with the folk of Dale under Erebor (with whom they were akin''')" dated 1856 TA

But in this last text, I can't imagine that "Dale" will not point to the town, in particular because of the majuscule. It seems to me that if Dale wasn’t built in Tolkien’s mind when he wrote this, he would have writtent “with the folk of the dale under Erebor”, don’t you think ?

Yet, another kind of solution may be suggested :

1) people live around Erebor ; Dale is a already village

2) 1856 TA : Northmen from the south fly and some stay around Erebor

2) 1999 TA : Thrain I become King of Erebor ; Dale become tradingly more attractive and its population increases so that more buildings are set

3) 2210 TA : Dwarves leave Erebor ; trade decrease so that a urban way of life is no more bearable ; Lots of people has to leave, lots of building are not occupied anymore and become ruins

4) 2590 TA : Dwarves come back ; Dale become attractive again ; Dale is “rebuilt”

5) 2746 TA : Thorin II's birth

Thorin II, who’s speaking about Dale in the Hobbit, may have a shortened vision of History or just doesn’t want to give to much detail in his conversation, so he says “built” and not “rebuilt”

All this to suggest to be less confident in a “Dale” region (or even a “Dale realm” : I haven’t found such words in the text) in this article. Maybe just tell the fact and let people imagine what may combine both ?

By the way, this is what is written in Erebor”s article : “During Thráin's rule many riches were mined from the depths of the mountain, including the [[Arkenstone]]. The increased prosperity of the region led to the establishment of the town of [[Dale]], which was built by [[Men of Dale|Men]] between Erebor's slopes.”

Tolkien Gateway is a Dwarf mine full of jewels ! thanks so much for it <3

The best point is : sourcing the facts ! [[User:Erendis|Erendis]] ([[User talk:Erendis|talk]]) 12:48, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

:I am against inserting a speculation that Dale was the name of a village in or before T.A. 1856. I am also against insertating a speculation that Thorin II misstated history of meant "rebuilt" instead of "built". If you look at the existing references and at the sources, you will see that J.R.R. Tolkien did not make a statement that Dale was the name of a village in 1856. If you look at the existing references and at the existing sources you will see that Dale is also used as the name of something else than the town, more specifically the area where the later town is located. That area is between two arms of the Lonely Mountain. An area between two arms of a mountain typically is a valley. In addition, the word dale means valley in english. So Dale can be the name of a valley (J.R.R. Tolkien used "valley of Dale", "rebuilt the town in Dale" (not "rebuilt the town of Dale" or "rebuilt Dale"), "The river loops suddenly east across Dale in front of the ruined town" (not "The river loops suddendly east across the valley in front of the ruined town of Dale" or ""The river loops suddenly east across the valley in front of the ruins of the town of Dale")). I Tolkien uses "Dale" with a capitalized D he uses it as a name. People can have lived there in individual houses, groups of houses, a village or several villages. There is no need to speculate in the article in what kind of community and how close to each other people lived in this area in T.A. 1856. --[[User:Akhorahil|Akhôrahil]] ([[User talk:Akhorahil|talk]]) 14:09, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
::"rebuilt the town in Dale" => This escaped my researches and mind ! Thank you so much and I'm terribly sorry to have wasted your time. [[User:Erendis|Erendis]] ([[User talk:Erendis|talk]]) 14:20, 12 December 2024 (UTC)