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Talk:Salmar

2026-05-27T18:39:18Z

IvarTheBoneless:

I've looked through the History of Middle-earth, and have found no references that link Salmar to Aule at any point. As far as I can tell, Professor Tolkien always envisioned him either a servant/friend of Ulmo, or as an independent Vala, a musician associated with his twin brother Omar/Amillo. If anyone has any canon material linking Salmar to Aule, would they please cite it (either here, or in the article, or both)? {{unsigned|Corsair Caruso}}

:I think it might be a misreading of p. 16 (in my edition) of TBOLT1. --{{User:Mith/sig}} 16:27, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

::I don't have a copy of BoLT1 on me, but I can get ahold of it soon. Should I get back to you on my own reading of it, and we come to a consensus, or do you think it merits removal now? [[User:Corsair Caruso|Corsair Caruso]] 01:14, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

:::It merits removal now. Also, on p. 66 it says: "Thereafter came Ulmo amd Aulë, and with Ulmo were none, save Salmar only who was after known as Noldorin". So, quite clearly there appears to be no source for the statement that Salmar "was envisioned as a Vala in the service of Aulë" (as this article said [http://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Salmar&oldid=228380 before]).--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 11:14, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

== About Melko/Melkor ==
Is there any utility in altering the references to "Melko" to include "(Melkor)", or just use the more commonly-known name? I have learned now that "Melko" is canon in some works and there is a disambiguation page here, but it confused me at first. --[[User:Shantismurf|Shantismurf]] ([[User talk:Shantismurf|talk]]) 16:14, 27 May 2026 (UTC)

: The bulk of Salmar's article is made up of OVOTL (Other versions of the legendarium, the place reserved for exactly what its name means) so no, please don't go around changing instances of 'Melko' to 'Melko (Melkor)'. At best, seeing how Salmar is name-dropped in the published ''Silmarillion'', you could make a footnote to the lede of the article explaining the seeming discrepancy. - [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 18:39, 27 May 2026 (UTC)

Salmar

2026-05-27T18:31:14Z

IvarTheBoneless: Salmar as the creator of the Ulumuri doesn't come into existence until later + I clarified what the main part of the 'Other versions of the legendarium' refers to

{{infobox character
| people=[[Maiar|Maia]]
| name=Salmar
| image=Kent Burles - Salmar.png
| caption="Salmar" by [[:Category:Images by Kent Burles|Kent Burles]]
| pronun=[[Quenya|Q]], {{IPA|[ˈsalmar]}}
| othernames=
| titles=
| position=
| location=
| affiliation=[[Ulmo]]
| language=
| birth=
| birthlocation=
| rule=
| death=
| deathlocation=
| age=
| notablefor=Making of the [[Ulumúri]]
| house=
| parentage=
| siblings=
| spouse=
| children=
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=
| steed=
}}
'''Salmar''' was a [[Maia]]<ref>{{S|Index}}, entry "Salmar"</ref> who entered [[Arda]] with [[Ulmo]]. He was the maker of the [[Ulumúri]], the great horns of Ulmo which produce the music of the sea.<ref>{{S|Days}}</ref>

==Etymology==
The meaning of the name '''''Salmar''''' in [[Quenya]] is unclear. But, see [[Salmar#Early etymology|below]] for the meaning of his name in the early mythology.

==Other versions of the legendarium==
===''[[The Book of Lost Tales]]'' and associated writings===
'''Salmar''', also called '''Noldorin''', was a [[Valar|Vala]] in the early version of the [[legendarium]] in ''[[The Book of Lost Tales]]''.

He entered the world with [[Ulmo]],<ref>{{LT1|III}}, p. 66</ref> and afterwards dwelt in [[Valmar]]. There he would often play music on his harp and lyre, sitting beneath [[Laurelin]], and [[Ómar|Ómar-Amillo]] his twin brother would sing as he played.<ref>{{LT1|III}}, p. 75</ref>

When the Valar decided to oust [[Melko]] from his fortress in [[Utumna]], he joined the rest of them in their attack.<ref>{{LT1|IV}}, p. 101</ref> Some time later when the [[Elves]] [[Awakening of the Elves|awoke]], he established a friendship with the [[Noldoli]], whom he loved.<ref>{{LT1|V}}, p. 126</ref>

After the [[Two Trees]] were destroyed, it was Salmar who first noticed that in [[Vána]]'s lamentation for them, there was still joy in her voice. When he pointed it out to them, the rest of the Valar gathered there heard the words: ''I-kal'antúlien'' (meaning "Light hath returned"), since Vána's tears caused a final shoot of Laurelin to spring forth.<ref>{{LT1|VIII}}, p. 184</ref>

Much later, after the [[Fall of Gondolin]], when the Valar finally decided to wage war on Melko in the [[Great Lands]] and free the enslaved [[Gnomes]], Salmar came with them. In the ensuing [[Battle of Tasarinan]], Salmar barely escaped;<ref>{{LT2|III}}, p. 154</ref> following his escape he went to the [[Iron Mountains (The Book of Lost Tales)|Iron Mountains]] looking for the Gnomes and to find their place of imprisonment.<ref>{{LT2|VI}}, p. 279</ref>

Nothing else is known about his future, except that he eventually returned to Valinor.<ref>{{LT2|VI}}, p. 278</ref><ref group="note">In an early, rejected entry in ''[[Qenyaqetsa]]'', it is said that Salmar, together with his brother [[Amillo]] and the Vala [[Erinti]] left Valinor to live in [[Tol Eressëa]], being the only three of the Valar that have done so.</ref><ref>{{PE|12}}, p. 36</ref><ref group="note">Salmar (Noldorin) was supposed to fight Melko along with [[Tulkas]] in the [[Battle of the Silent Pools]], in which Melko was captured - but his presence there was struck out.</ref><ref>{{LT2|IIIn}}, pp. 219-220</ref>

In one text though, it is said that he led the Gnomes back to [[Tol Eressëa]] after the war with Melko.<ref>{{PE|12}}, p. 67</ref>

===Later writings===
{{stub}}

===Early etymology===
''Salmar'' is a [[Qenya]] name, derived from ''salma'' ("lyre, small harp").<ref name="Pie" />

===Other names===
The [[Gnomish]] cognate of ''Salmar'' is '''''Salvor'''''.<ref name="Pie" />

Likewise, both '''''Noldorin''''' and '''''Lirillo''''' (another name by which he was known by) are also Qenya names: the first probably arising from his association with the [[Noldoli]];<ref>{{webcite|author=[[Paul Strack]]|articleurl=http://eldamo.org/content/words/word-1050955279.html|articlename=ᴱQ. ''Noldorin'' m.|website=Eldamo|accessed=23 March 2022}}</ref> the second meaning "Valu of the Song", containing either ''glîr'' ("a song, poem") or ''lir-'' ("sing") + masculine ending ''[[-illo]]''.<ref name="Pie" />

The Gnomish equivalent of ''Noldorin'' is '''''Goldriel''''',<ref group="note">''Goldriel'' was replaced by '''''Golthadriel''''', but subsequently both terms were struck out.</ref><ref>{{LT1|In}}, p. 22</ref> and that of ''Lirillo'' is '''''Glirlos'''''.<ref name="Pie">{{PE|14}}, p. 13</ref>

Another name for the character was '''''Avlon'''''.<ref>{{PE|11}}, p. 41</ref> It is in Gnomish, but its meaning is unclear.

===Early genealogy===
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree | |,|-|-|-|.| |}}
{{familytree | SAL | | OMA |SAL='''SALMAR'''|OMA=[[Ómar]]}}
{{familytree/end}}

==Inspiration==
The characters of Salmar (Lirillo), Ómar (Amillo), and [[Erinti]] were likely inspired by [[J.R.R. Tolkien]] himself, his brother [[Hilary Tolkien]], and Tolkien's wife [[Edith Bratt]], respectively.<ref>{{PE|14}}, "[[The Names of the Valar]]", ''note 23'', p. 15</ref>

For more information, see: ''[[Lirillion]]''.

{{references|notes}}
{{ainur}}
[[Category:Characters in The Book of Lost Tales]]
[[Category:Characters in The Silmarillion]]
[[Category:Maiar]]
[[Category:Qenya names]]
[[Category:Quenya names]]
[[Category:Valar]]
[[de:Salmar]]
[[fi:Salmar]]
[[fr:encyclo/personnages/ainur/maiar/salmar]]

Finwë

2026-02-24T09:53:05Z

IvarTheBoneless: probably best not to blindly copy/paste another character's genealogy (Finrod's in this case)

{{short description|First King of the Noldor}}
{{infobox character
| people=[[Noldor|Noldo]]
| name=Finwë
| image=Kimberly - Finwe.jpg
| caption="Finwe" by [[:Category:Images by Kimberly|Kimberly]]
| pronun=[[Quenya|Q]], {{IPA|[ˈfinwe]}}
| othernames=''Ñoldóran'' ([[Quenya|Q]])<ref name="Descendants">{{PM|Finwe}}, p. 243</ref>
| titles=[[King of the Noldor]]
| position=
| location=[[Eldamar]] ([[Tirion]])
| affiliation=
| language=[[Common Eldarin]] [[Quenya]]
| birth=Between {{YT|1050}} and {{YT|1102|n}}
| birthlocation=[[Cuiviénen]]
| rule={{YT|1105}} - {{YT|1490|n}}
| death={{YT|1495}}
| deathlocation=[[Formenos]]
| age=between 4,263 and 3,765 years
| notablefor=
| house=Founded the [[House of Finwë]]
| parentage=Unknown (descendant of [[Tata]] & [[Tatië]])<ref>{{NM|P1xvii}}, p. 127</ref>
| siblings=
| spouse=[[Míriel]] [[Indis]]
| children=[[Fëanor]] (by Míriel) [[Findis]], [[Fingolfin]], [[Írimë]] and [[Finarfin]] (by Indis)<ref name="Descendants"/>
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=Black<ref name="Eyes"/> and long<ref>{{NM|P2iv}}, p. 186</ref>
| eyes=Bright blue-grey<ref name="Eyes">{{PM|XINotes}}, Note 19, p. 357</ref>
| clothing=
| weapons=
| steed=
}}
{{Quote|Next came the Noldor, a name of wisdom. They are the Deep Elves, and the friends of Aulë. Their lord was Finwë, wisest of all the children of the world. His kindred are renowned in song, for they fought and laboured long and grievously in the northern lands of old.|''[[Morgoth's Ring]]'', "[[Of the Coming of the Elves]]"}}
'''Finwë''' was the first [[King of the Noldor]] and establisher of the [[House of Finwë]] from which branched three other great houses: the [[House of Fëanor]], the [[House of Fingolfin]], and the [[House of Finarfin]].

Finwë was descended of [[Tata]] and [[Tatië]], and thus of the [[Tatyar]] clan. In his youth at [[Cuiviénen]] he was gallant and adventurous, and great friends with [[Elwë]] of the [[Nelyar]] clan. Due to the lies of [[Melkor]], he was initially suspicious of the [[Valar]], but after visiting [[Valinor]] as one of the [[Three Ambassadors]], he became ardently in favour of accepting their invitation for the [[Quendi]] to relocate and join them. On his return, he [[Debate of the Quendi|strongly advocated for migration]] and convinced many to accept. The Tatyar who chose to follow Finwë became known as the [[Noldor]] and he became their first King.

Finwë led his people through the [[Great Journey]] and in [[Eldamar]] established the great city [[Tirion]]. He further played a significant role in bringing the [[Falmari]] to Aman, and constructing their city of [[Alqualondë]].

After the birth of his great son, [[Fëanor]], his wife, [[Míriel]] became tired of life and chose to die. Finwë long waited and pleaded for her to return, but eventually lost hope that she would. By [[Statute of Finwë and Míriel|leave of the Valar]], Finwë was permitted to re-marry and took [[Indis]] of the [[Vanyar]] as his second wife: from her he had many additional children, including [[Fingolfin]] and [[Finarfin]].

Eventually [[Unchaining of Melkor|Melkor was released]] and he slowly [[Unrest of the Noldor|fomented discontent among the Noldor]]; an especial target of Melkor's was the existing friction between Fëanor and his half-brothers. This finally erupted as a threat of violence by Fëanor against Fingolfin, and Fëanor was subsequently banished from Tirion; Finwë, holding himself unkinged, followed him. Soon after, Melkor returned, with [[Ungoliant]], during a [[High feast#High feast of 1495|great feast]] and first [[Darkening of Valinor|slew the Two Trees]], then slew Finwë, who alone was willing to stand against them.

After Finwë's death, he voluntarily forfeited any chance of [[Elven life cycle#Death and reincarnation|reincarnation]] in exchange for Míriel being returned to life.

==History==
===Early life in Middle-earth===
At the beginning of the [[First Age]], the [[Elves]] [[Awakening of the Elves|awoke at Cuiviénen]].<ref name="Annals">{{MR|P2e}}, pp. 71-4</ref> Long they dwelt there, walking the world in wonder, [[Primitive Quendian|making speech]] and naming what they perceived;<ref name="captivity">{{S|Captivity}}</ref> all of [[Arda]] they loved.<ref>{{WJ|Appendix}}</ref>

Within time though, the Elves were discovered by [[Melkor]], and their natural happiness was dimmed by fear as he sent his shadows to spy on and waylay them, and often Elves who went too far abroad would vanish and never return.<ref name="captivity">{{S|Captivity}}</ref> The younger Elves, in their pride, came to believe that it was ''their mission'' to fight the Dark, and ultimately to posses the world of Arda.<ref name="keydates">{{NM|P1xiii}}</ref> Following this, the Elves were then found by the [[Vala]] [[Oromë]], who dwelt with them awhile before returning back to [[Valinor]] to bring tidings of his discovery.<ref name="captivity" />

Finwë, an Elf of the [[Tatyar]] clan, and a direct descendant of [[Tata]], was born shortly after Oromë's departure. In Oromë's absence, Melkor had his emissaries spread lies among the Elves that the Valar had previously abandoned [[Middle-earth]] and now, jealous to re-posses it, intended to subjugate the Elves as their vassals. Finwë, then a gallant and adventurous young Elf, was much taken with these ideas. Less taken was Finwë's friend [[Elwë]], a descendant of [[Enel]]<ref name="keydates" />{{rp|98-99}} who otherwise shared his adventurous spirit.<ref name="genschemes">{{NM|P1xvii}}</ref>{{rp|132}}

===Serving as an Ambassador===
[[File:Peter Xavier Price - Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe.jpg|thumb|left|''Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe'' by [[Peter Xavier Price]]]]
The Valar, both desiring to protect the Elves from the dangers of the world, and filled with the love of their beauty and desiring their companionship, issued a summons inviting the Elves to [[Aman]] and dwell in the light of the [[Two Trees|Two Trees]].<ref name="captivity" /> Oromë returned to Cuiviénen with this invite and the [[Three Ambassadors]] — [[Ingwë]], Finwë, and Elwë — were elected from their respective kindreds to first journey with him to Valinor and represent their people. At the time of Finwë's departure he was betrothed to [[Míriel]], an Elf maiden devoted to crafts.<ref name="keydates" />{{rp|99}}

On arriving in Valinor, Finwë, like the other Ambassadors, was dazzled and overawed. While he had initially been the most skeptical, he became the most converted, and longed for Míriel to have the marvelous chance of learning new skills. Elwë, though he preferred the “lesser light, and shadows” of [[Endor]], would follow Finwë his friend. The Ambassadors tarried in Valinor for several years, as Ingwë and Finwë were reluctant to hurry away.<ref name="keydates" />{{rp|99}}

On the return of the Ambassadors, the Elves held [[Debate of the Quendi|a great debate]] where the Three Ambassadors advocated to relocate to Valinor, while the Three Fathers were against it. Finwë spoke after Ingwë — with less deference towards Tata than Ingwë had showed towards [[Imin]] — and articulated both the riches of knowledge and crafts in Valinor, and the perils of staying in Cuiviénen; he did not, however, disclose his thoughts of the enhancement of his lover Míriel’s skill. Finwë's speech was very effective, as large numbers of the Quendi who could not conceive of Valinor’s attraction were nonetheless frightened of what may befall them if they remained. Elwë declared that he would go with Finwë, but that he chose for none other than himself. After all had finished speaking the Elves held a vote and the majority chose to depart for Valinor, though a very sizable minority chose to remain behind.<ref name="keydates" />{{rp|99-105}}<ref group="note">This may have included the 144 First Elves, with the Three Fathers among them ({{NM|P1xiii}}, p. 100)</ref>

From this came the first [[sundering of the Elves]]. Those that chose to depart came to be known as the "[[Eldar]]", while those that remained became known as "[[Avari]]". Among the Eldarin members of the Tatyar clan the name "[[Noldor]]" was accepted and used as their regular and proper name throughout their later history.<ref name="clannames">{{WJ|C}}</ref>{{rp|507}} Ingwë, Finwë, and Elwë were preeminent and obvious leaders: the light of Aman was in their faces and the other Elves were in awe of them.<ref name="march">{{NM|P1vii}}</ref>{{rp|62}} Finwë was thereafter known as the first [[king of the Noldor]].<ref>{{NM|Note}}, "XVI Galadriel and Celeborn", note 8</ref>

===Great March===
{{Main|Great Journey}}
The Eldar thus began their Great Journey and went forth in three hosts, one for each kindred. First came Ingwë's people, the [[Vanyar]]; next were Finwë's, the Noldor; and last were Elwë's, the [[Teleri]]. The Teleri were the greatest host in numbers, and they therefore had a two lords, both Elwë and his younger brother [[Olwë]]. Riding before them all went Oromë.<ref>{{MR|P2g}}, §58</ref>

Over the course of many years the Eldar crossed west through Middle-earth. While there were weddings and begetting of children during the Great March, Finwë was among the few who abstained from doing so as he had seen Aman, and desired to have his children there.<ref name="march" />{{rp|62}}

Eventually the Eldar reached the [[Great Sea]], but on beholding it a great fear come upon them, and many withdrew into the woods and highlands of Beleriand.<ref name="s3">{{S|3}}</ref> Many of the Noldor dwelt in the forests that were afterwards named [[Neldoreth]] and [[Region]]. During this time Finwë was often visited by Elwë, whose people dwelt further east; on the journey home from one such visit though, Elwë vanished, and his people sought for him in vain.<ref name="s4">{{S|4}}</ref><ref>{{MR|P2g}}</ref>{{rp|§65}}

[[Ulmo]], through the music of [[Ulumúri|his horns]], turned the Eldar's fear of the sea into desire, and both the Vanyar and the Noldor were then ferried over the sea on [[Tol Eressëa|an island]], eventually arriving at Aman.<ref name="s5">{{S|5}}</ref>

===Establishment in Aman===
In {{YT|1133}} the Vanyar and Noldor arrived in Aman and took possession of [[Eldamar]] where they began building the green hill of [[Túna]]; upon Túna they then raised the city [[Tirion]].<ref name="aa3">{{MR|P2g}}</ref>{{rp|§67}} By {{YT|1140|n}} Tirion was full-wrought, but Ingwë and many of the Vanyar, yearning for the Light of the Trees, departed to [[Valinor]] to reside with the people of [[Manwë]].<ref name="aa3" />{{rp|§68}}

In {{YT|1149|n}} Ulmo hearkened to the prayers of Finwë and went again to Middle-earth to bring Elwë and his people to Aman.<ref name="aa3" />{{rp|§70}} By {{YT|1151|n}} Ulmo brought the Teleri, under Olwë their new king, within sight of Aman where at their request he fastened the island Tol Eressëa.<ref name="aa3" />{{rp|§72}} Finwë grieved when the Teleri came not, and yet more when he learned that Elwë was forsaken, and knew that he should not see him again unless it were in the [[Halls of Mandos]].<ref name="aa3" />{{rp|§73}}

In {{YT|1161|n}} the Teleri, drawn towards the Light of Aman, changed their hearts and came to Aman where the Noldor welcomed them with joy<ref name="aa3" />{{rp|§75}} and aided them in the building of their city [[Alqualondë]].<ref name="aa3" />{{rp|§76}} By {{YT|1165|n}} the last of the Vanyar departed from Tirion, and the Noldor's converse and friendship thereafter was rather with the Teleri of Aman ([[Falmari]]).<ref name="aa3" />{{rp|§77}}

===Birth of Fëanor and death of Míriel===
In {{YT|1169|n}} Finwë's first child, [[Fëanor]], was born to himself and Míriel.<ref>{{MR|P2k}}, Note 1, p. 101</ref> In the bearing of their son, however, Míriel was so consumed in spirit and body that nearly all her strength seemed to have passed from her. Míriel expressed this to Finwë, stating that she would never again bear child, as the strength that would have nourished many had been spent on Fëanor. Finwë grieved at this, as he desired to bring forth many children into the bliss of Aman. Finwë therefore sought the counsel of Manwë, who then delivered Míriel to the care of [[Irmo]] in [[Lórien (Valinor)|Lórien]]. Finwë was saddened by the departure of Míriel, and that she would miss the childhood days of their son. Míriel went to Lórien and laid down to sleep under a silver tree; there her [[fëa]] departed and passed in silence to the Halls of Mandos.<ref name="statute">{{MR|P3II3f}}</ref>

Though many Elves had previously been slain in Middle-earth, and their fëar summoned to Mandos to keep them from the Darkness, Míriel's was the first death in Aman, and it troubled the Valar greatly. Therefore, Manwë consulted directly with [[Ilúvatar]], and from Him received the authority to re-house those among the houseless who so consented.<ref>{{MR|P4q}}</ref>


Yet, Finwë's grief at Míriel's passing remained great, and he often went to the gardens of Lórien to sit beside her body and call to her;<ref name="statute" /> and for a while, Fëanor joined his father in vigil by his mother's body.<ref name="shibboleth">{{PM|Shibboleth}}</ref> The Valar and all the Eldar, while they grieved Finwë's sorrow, were not dismayed: they believed that all things could be healed in Aman, and that once rested, her fëa and body could be reunited and returned to life.<ref name="shibboleth" /> Ingwë, desiring to lift up Finwë's heart and withdraw him from vain mourning in Lórien, sent messages bidding him to leave Túna for a while, and dwell for a season in the full light of the Trees. Finwë thanked him but did not go, as he yet hoped that Míriel would return.<ref name="later_fm">{{MR|P3II4}}</ref>


[[File:Steamey - Finwë Mourning Míriel.jpg|thumb|right|''Finwë Mourning Míriel'' by [[:Category:Images by Steamey|Steamey]]]]
But Míriel was reluctant, and to all the pleas reported to her, and to the counsels of the Valar, she would say no more than "not yet". Each time she was approached, however, she became more determined, until at last she would listen no more and declared to leave her in peace where she was, and that she would not return.<ref name="shibboleth" /> After a while Finwë went to Lórien no more, for it only increased his grief to see the fair form of Míriel that would not hear his call. All of Finwë's love was then given to his son, for Fëanor in childhood was like Míriel in voice and countenance, and Finwë was to him both father and mother, and there was a double bond of love between them.<ref name="later_fm" />


Yet Finwë, being young and eager and desiring more children, was not content. Therefore, after a few years, Finwë again spoke to Manwë of his bereavement. He exclaimed that he alone among the Eldar had no wife, and could hope for no more children save the one son, while both Ingwë and Olwë had begat many children in the bliss of Aman.<ref name="later_fm" /> Finwë then asked if he must remain ever thus, for his heart warned him that Míriel would not return, and if there was not healing of ''his'' grief in Aman.<ref name="statute" />

Manwë was moved with pity for Finwë, but the coming of death and such sorrow into Aman was of grave portent, and he thus summoned the Valar to council where they held a [[Debate of the Valar|great debate]] on the issue which resulted in the making of the [[Statute of Finwë and Míriel]]. This Statute declared that if one spouse died and refused to be reembodied, then after a set number of years the living spouse would be permitted to remarry and the deceased spouse would forever forfeit their ability to return. Manwë then called Finwë back before him and informed him of this, but noted that while Finwë would have permission to remarry if Míriel did not return, it was not counsel to do so. Finwë responded that he was in no haste, and only desired that once the doom was made clear to Míriel she would relent and set a term to his bereavement. Míriel was informed of this doom, but she maintained her desire to never return: her life had gone out into Fëanor, and she believed healing was not possible within Arda.<ref name="later_fm" />


In the following years, Fëanor dwelt in the care of Finwë and began to display the skills in hand and mind of both his parents. In stature he became ever more like Finwë, but in mood he resembled Míriel as his will was strong and determined;<ref name="later_fm" /> also like her, he could also become wholly absorbed in his works and devices, and he thus provided little comfort to the sorrow of Finwë.<ref name="shibboleth" />


By {{YT|1182|n}}, the span of years prescribed by the Statue had passed, and the doom of disunion was spoken.<ref name="later_fm" /> It thus became clear at last to Finwë that Míriel would never return within any span of time that could give him hope, and his sorrow became embittered. He sought to take up his own life again, and wandered far and wide, but in his loneliness he found no joy in anything that he did.<ref name="shibboleth" />

===Remarriage to Indis===
[[File:Alystraea_-_Finwe_and_Indis.jpg|right|thumb|''Finwe and Indis'' by [[Alystraea]]]]
Two years later, in {{YT|1184|n}}, Finwë, reconsidering Ingwë's offer, thought that perhaps healing might be found in the light of [[Laurelin]] and hope in the blossom of [[Telperion]], and decided to seek Ingwë's council.

On a day, while Fëanor was abroad walking in the mountains, Finwë, travelling alone, passed through the [[Calacirian]], and towards the house of Ingwë upon the west slopes of [[Oiolossë]]. His coming was unheralded, and as he climbed the paths of the Mountain, he heard the joyous singing of [[Indis]], kinswoman of Ingwë, and he looked up and beheld her, face lit by the the golden light of Laurelin. In that moment he then knew that she loved him, and had long done so, and his heart turned to her. This, he deemed was a chance that had been granted to them both, and he declared that there was indeed healing of grief in Aman.<ref name="later_fm" />

In {{YT|1185|n}}, one year from their meeting, Finwë and Indis were wed. Finwë loved her dearly, and was glad again, and together they had four additional children: [[Findis]], [[Fingolfin]], [[Irimë]], and [[Finarfin]]. Yet, the shadow of Míriel remained in both Finwë's house, and in his heart.<ref name="later_fm" />

For Fëanor, the matter of Finwë and Indis was met with anger and resentment: by their marriage Míriel, who he loved dearly, was now condemned to never return, and he to never see or visit her again. Fëanor thus grudged the happiness of Finwë and Indis, and disliked their children before they were even born.<ref name="shibboleth" /> As soon as he could, Fëanor lived apart from them: exploring the land of Aman, or busying himself with lore and crafts.<ref name="later_fm" />

The estrangement between Fëanor and Indis and her children did not lessen the love between Finwë and Fëanor however; indeed, of all whom Finwë loved, Fëanor had ever the chief share of his thought.<ref name="later_fm" />

===Unrest of the Noldor===
{{main|Unrest of the Noldor}}
For a time, the Noldor continued to dwell in Aman in happiness. The craftsmen of the Noldor worked with delight, foreseeing no end to their labours, while Fëanor became of all them, then or after, the most subtle in mind and the most skilled in hand. Finwë's sons by Indis likewise grew to their full stature.<ref name="s_feanor">{{S|Feanor}}</ref> During this happy time Finwë's house expanded greatly, with many grandchildren through the [[House of Fëanor]] (including Fëanor's unprecedented [[Sons of Fëanor|seven sons]]), the [[House of Fingolfin]], and the [[House of Finarfin]].

In {{YT|1400|n}}, after three ages of imprisonment, the [[Chaining of Melkor]] was ended and he was [[Unchaining of Melkor|granted freedom]] by Manwë.<ref name="AA4">{{MR|P2j}}</ref>{{rp|§87-88}} Though he feigned repentance, Melkor despised the Elves, and sought to estrange them from the Valar.<ref name="s_feanor" /> And of the Elves, Melkor despised Fëanor most, and lusted after his great creations, the [[Silmaril]]s. Long and slow, Melkor gradually inflamed the Noldor with pride and jealousy, with visions of mighty realms to be had in Middle-earth, and of their supposed usurpation by [[Men]] who were more easily controlled by the Valar.<ref name="s_unrest">{{S|Unrest}}</ref>

Though Fëanor hated and took no counsel from Melkor, in him burned most fiercely the desire for freedom and wide-realms by returning to Middle-earth. Seeing that both Fëanor and Fingolfin had grown proud and jealous of their rights and possessions, Melkor set new lies against them. To Fëanor, whispers came that Fingolfin and his sons were plotting to usurp Finwë, and the elder line of Fëanor, by leave of the Valar who were ill-pleased that Fëanor's Silmarils had not been committed to their keeping. To Fingolfin and Finarfin, however, it was said that Fëanor, having become great, bore little love for the children of Indis, and with Finwë in his hand, was making ready to drive them forth from Túna.<ref name="TSP6">{{MR|P3II6}}</ref>{{rp|§52}}

With pride and anger thus awakened, the houses of the Noldor began to quarrel and vie with one another. Melkor then spoke to them of weapons, which the Noldor secretly began to smith. In this time, Fëanor began to speak openly of rebellion against the Valar, and of delivering the Noldor from thralldom by returning to Middle-earth.<ref name="s_unrest" />

Amidst this unrest, Finwë grew concerned, and called a great council of all his lords. Fingolfin, arriving before the council began, spoke to Finwë and urged him to restrain Fëanor, and that if Finwë did not repent leading the Noldor to Aman, he still had at least two sons who honoured that. At this moment however, Fëanor suddenly appeared, fully armed, and rebuked Fingolfin before drawing his sword and demanding him to go. As Fingolfin left, Fëanor followed him and at the door of the king's house publicly threatened him at sword-point; as Finwë's house was in the [[Great Square]], these words were heard by many.<ref name="s_unrest" />

[[File:Irsanna_-_Finwe_in_Formenos.jpg|right|thumb|''Finwe in Formenos'' by [[Irsanna]]]]
Wroth at these deeds, Manwë summoned Fëanor, along with all others who had any part in the unrest, to the [[Ring of Doom]] to stand before Mandos. After all testimony had been given, Melkor's role became apparent, and [[Tulkas]] was sent to retrieve him. Fëanor was not held guiltless though, and he was banished from Túna for twelve years. Fëanor thus departed to [[Formenos]] where he was joined by [[Sons of Fëanor|his sons]] as well as by Finwë, who would not be parted from him.<ref name="s_unrest" /> The rule of the Noldor who remained in Tirion was then committed to Fingolfin by Manwë.<ref name="MR22">{{MR|P3II3e}}, note 22</ref>

After two years Melkor, who had hidden himself, came secretly to Formenos, disguised as a traveller seeking lodging, and spoke with Fëanor before his door. Melkor feigned friendship and urged Fëanor to his former thoughts of flight, but then overreached when he spoke of the Silmarils, causing Fëanor to turn him away and shut the door in his face. Finwë was filled with great dread on learning of this, and in haste sent messengers to Manwë.<ref name="TSP6" />{{rp|§54}}

===Death and aftermath===
Seeking to heal the griefs between the lords of the Noldor, Manwë prepared a [[High_feast#High_feast_of_1495|great high feast]] for all to join. To Formenos he sent a messenger specifically bidding the attendance of Fëanor, which Fëanor interpreted as a command, and thus he went.<ref>{{MR|P3II7}}</ref>{{rp|§58c}} Along with the sons of Fëanor, Finwë refused the invitation, saying that "while the ban lasts upon Fëanor my son, that he may not go to Túna, I hold myself unkinged, and will not meet my people, nor those that rule in my stead".<ref>{{MR|P2j}}</ref>{{rp|§112}}

After the departure of Fëanor, Finwë was heavy with grief, and a foreboding was upon him. Soon, Melkor, along with [[Ungoliant]], assaulted Formenos, enveloping it as a black cloud. While all others fled, Finwë remained and stood alone defiant against them, and was slain; his head was crushed though with a great mace of iron, his body burned and destroyed, and his sword twisted and untempered as if by lightning-stroke.<ref>{{MR|P3II8}}</ref>{{rp|§§9-10}}<ref group="note">Christopher Tolkien notes that the two accounts of Finwë's death "may not be death altogether contradictory, for in the present text Maedros speaks of seeing a sudden flame out of the Cloud of Ungoliantë, followed by ‘one piercing cry’, and of finding Finwë’s sword ‘twisted and untempered as if by lightning-stroke’." - {{MR|P3II9a}}, commentary, §10</ref>

In the subsequent [[flight of the Noldor]], the slaying of Finwë was a key motivator in their decision to depart from Aman. During [[Speech of Fëanor|Fëanor's speech]] he declared that he ''"would not dwell longer in the same land with the kin of my father’s slayer"'',<ref>{{MR|Speech}}</ref>{{rp|§132}} while Fingolfin, prior to Fëanor's theft of the ships, stated that he had ''"an errand in Middle-earth, the avenging of the blood of my father upon Morgoth, whom the Valar let loose among us."''<ref>{{PM|XINotes}}</ref>{{rp|33}}

In the unhappy events which latter came to pass, many judged that if Finwë had endured the loss of Míriel and been content with the fathering of his mighty son Fëanor, then Fëanor's courses would have been different, and much sorrow and evil would not have been.<ref name="later_fm" />{{rp|§28}}

===Forfeiture of return===
After Finwë's death, his fëa departed to Mandos where he met again with Míriel. Míriel was glad of the meeting, but moved to sadness once she learned all that had transpired since her departure. She accepted that she erred in leaving Finwë and Fëanor, or at least in not returning soon after a brief repose, and bore no grudge against Indis for cherishing what she had abandoned. Míriel then expressed a desire to return to her body, and record the deeds of their people, including Finwë and his children, into tapestry.<ref name="p3ii3d">{{MR|P3II3d}}, pp. 248-9</ref>

Finwë then went to [[Vairë]] and requested Míriel be returned to life, offering instead for he himself to forever remain in Mandos in her place. When Vairë remarked that Finwë seemed to now be considering Míriel only, and to have forgotten about Indis and his children with her, Finwë retorted that was unjust; he was able to love two women without the love for one diminishing the love for the other. Additionally, he stated that he had been apart from Indis for many years, that her love was now mostly for Fingolfin, and that most of all she longed to return to the peace of the Vanyar and be away from the strife of the Noldor.<ref name="p3ii3d" />

When Mandos was approached he declared Finwë making this offer of his own free will a counsel of healing, and consented to Míriel's return with Finwë's abnegation as her ransom. On waking, Míriel entered the House of Vairë and became her chief handmaid, and there recorded all tidings of the Noldor into great tapestries. Of these Finwë was at times permitted to look upon.<ref name="p3ii3d" />

==Characteristics==
[[File:Quentandil - Finwe device.png|right|thumb|''Finwe device'' by [[User:Quentandil|Quentandil]]]]
Finwë had black hair and brilliant grey-blue eyes.<ref>{{PM|XINotes}}</ref>{{rp|19}}

In his youth, before becoming King of the Noldor, Finwë was gallant and adventurous, but also rebellious and independent. Before serving as an ambassador, he had "heretical" leanings and was much taken by the lies of Melkor that the Valar had, rightly, previously abandoned Endor as the appointed realm of the Quendi, but became jealous and sought to re-posses it and to control the Quendi as their vassals. Once he arrived in Valinor, however, he was dazzled and overawed, and thus became the most converted and ardent for accepting the invitation of the Valar to dwell there.<ref name="keydates" />

He became known as the "wisest of all the children of the world".<ref name="mrcoming">{{MR|P3I3}}</ref>{{rp|§26}}

When Indis's heart had turned towards Finwë, in the days when the Vanyar still dwelt at Tirion, "he seemed to her fairest and noblest of the Eldar, dark-haired and white of brow, eager of face but with eyes full of thought; and his voice and mastery of words delighted her."<ref name="later_fm" />{{rp|§24}}

==Etymology==
'''Finwë''', is one of the oldest recorded names of the Eldar, and it is not certain that it had any meaning beyond the stem ''"fin-"'' followed by the suffix ''"[[-wë]]"''.<ref name="finwe">{{PM|Finwe}}</ref>{{rp|419}}

The second element was explained by [[loremaster]]s as an old word for 'person', derived from the stem <code>√EWE</code>, but survived in Quenya only as a final element in names. The first element (fin-) was often later explained as related to [[Common Eldarin]] <code>√PHIN</code> ("hair"), as in [[Quenya]] ''finë'' ("a hair"), ''findë'' ("hair", especially of the head), ''finda'' ("having hair", "-haired"), but it was doubtful. All the Eldar had beautiful hair, but the Noldor were not specially remarkable in this respect, and there is no reference to Finwë as having had hair of exceptional length, abundance, or beauty beyond the measure of his people.<ref name="finwe" />{{rp|419}}

Alternatively, <code>√PHIN</code> has the meaning of [("clever", "fine", "delicate"), ("nimbleness", "skill"), or ("skilful", "neat", "clever")].<ref name="pe17">{{PE|17}}</ref>{{rp|181}} With this interpretation, Finwë is defined as "man of manual skill".<ref name="pe17" />{{rp|17}}

"fin" having meanings of both "skill" and "hair" may be explained by <code>√SPIN</code> [("fine thread", "filament") or ("a single hair")], being distinct, though probably ultimately connected, from <code>√PHIN</code>, and eventually itself becoming "phin-" in Quenya.<ref name="pe17" />{{rp|17}}

In the [[Qenya Lexicon]] (QL) the root <code>FINI</code> is used in ''finwa'' ("acute", "sagacious"); ''finië'' and ''findë'' ("cunning"); and ''fint'' ("a trick", "notion"). These are provided to be compared with "Finwë".<ref name="pe12">{{PE|12}}</ref>{{rp|38}}

Being king of the Noldor, Finwë was styled as '''''Ñoldóran''''',<ref name="Descendants" /> which is a compound of ''[[noldo|Ñoldo]]'' and ''[[aran]]'' 'king', where ''o''+''a'' assimilated into a long ''ó''.<ref>{{webcite|author=Paul Strack|articleurl=https://eldamo.org/content/words/word-3561596031.html|articlename=Q. ''Ñoldóran'' pn.|website=Eldamo|accessed=12 October 2025}}</ref>

==Other names==
In the ''[[Book of Lost Tales]]'', the lord of the [[Noldoli]] was '''Finwë Nólemë''' (also '''Nólemë Finwë''', and most commonly simply '''Nólemë''')<ref name="ltcoming">{{LT1|Vn}}</ref>{{rp|168}}. In QL, ''Nólemë'' is defined as ("deep lore", "wisdom").<ref name="pe12" />{{rp|67}} His name in Gnomish was initially '''Golfinweg''', then '''Fingolma''', and they are noted as containing the same elements.<ref>{{LT1|Appendix}}, entry for '''Nólemë'''</ref>

The name of Fëanor's father (a separate character from the King of the Noldoli) was initially '''Bruithwir''' which was emended from '''Maron'''.<ref>{{LT1|VIn}}</ref> The character also had a second name, '''Felegron''', which was emended to '''Feleor'''.<ref>{{LT2|Index}}, entry for '''Felegron'''</ref>

In ''[[The Earliest 'Silmarillion']]'' he is given a Gnomish cognate of '''Finn'''.<ref>{{SM|Index}}</ref>

==Genealogy==
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree | | | TAT |y| TAI | | | | | | | | | | | | |TAT=[[Tata]] ''awoke in {{YT|1050}}''|TAI=[[Tatië]] ''awoke in {{YT|1050}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | |:| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | |:| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | |:| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | MÍR |y| FIN |y| IND | | | | | | | | | | |FIN='''FINWË''' ''d. {{YT|1495}}''|IND=[[Indis]] ''b. {{YT}}''|MÍR=[[Míriel]] ''d. {{YT|1170}}''}}
{{familytree | | | |!| | | |)|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|.| |}}
{{familytree | | | FËA | | FND | | FNG | | IRI | | FNR |FËA=[[Fëanor]] ''{{YT|1169}} - {{YT|1497|n}}''|FND=[[Findis]] ''b. {{YT}}''|FNG=[[Fingolfin]] ''{{YT|1190}} - {{FA|456}}''|IRI=[[Írimë]] ''b. {{YT}}''|FNR=[[Finarfin]] ''b. {{YT|1230}}''}}
{{familytree | | | |:| | | | | | | |:| | | | | | | |:| |}}
{{familytree | | | |:| | | | | | | |:| | | | | | | |:| |}}
{{familytree | | | HOF | | | | | | HOG | | | | | | HOA |HOF=''[[House of Fëanor]]''|HOG=''[[House of Fingolfin]]''|HOA=''[[House of Finarfin]]''}}
{{familytree/end}}

==Other versions of the legendarium==
===The Book of Lost Tales===
In ''[[The Book of Lost Tales]]'', '''Finwë Nólemë''' was the lord of the [[Noldoli]], though he was called ''Golfinweg'' in [[Gnomish]]. He was one of the [[Eru-begotten|first awakened Elves]], and when [[Nornorë]], herald of the Valar, bid for a few of them to come to Valinor, Finwë was one of the three who came forward. In Valinor, the three Elves were "utterly dazed and astonied" by the splendor of the lights of the Two Trees, and bowed in reverence. When Manwë then asked of them from where they came to the world, and what desires it filled them with, Nólemë responded "Lo! Most mighty one, whence indeed come we! For meseems I awoke but now from a sleep eternally profound, whose vast dreams already are forgotten". He then returns to his people and leads them to Valinor, on the second ferrying of the island after the Teleri (Vanyar) took the first.<ref>{{LT1|V}}</ref>

When Melko began to sow discord among the Gnomes, Nólemë spoke against him in efforts to calm their restlessnes and discontents. Eventually he took council with Fëanor (a great craftsman, not his son), Inwë (Ingwë), and Ellu Melemno (Olwë) and decided to send an embassy to Manwë on the matter; when his embassy arrived however, Melko was already there, having spoken to Manwë and giving a false account before they arrived. Manwë chided both parties: to Melko he bid to dwell in penitence in Mandos; and to the Gnomes, "fearing lest the pollution of their discontent spread among the other kindreds", he banished from their city of [[Kôr]] to new dwellings further away. Following this, Melko first used the [[Feast of Double Mirth]] as an opportunity to steal the [[Silmarils]], murdering Fëanor's father Bruithwir in the process, and then, with Gloomweaver (Ungoliant), slew the Two Trees.<ref>{{LT1|VI}}</ref>

After the darkening of Valinor, Fëanor was able to rally the Gnomes to follow him in departing. Nólemë spoke against this rashness and, when his people wouldn't hear him, he pleaded to at least send an embassy to Manwë for due farewell and perhaps receive goodwill and council; even this "moderate wisdom", however, Fëanor turned the Gnomes against. Even though he was unable to persuade his people through council, Nólemë would not be separated from them, and aided them in all their preparations. The Noldoli then departed Kôr, stole ships from the [[Solosimpi]] (Falmari), and crossed the [[Helcaraxë|frozen wastes in the north]] to reach the Great Lands.<ref>{{LT1|VII}}</ref>

In earlier outlines of ''The History of the Exiled Gnomes'' the Noldoli then encamped at the [[Waters of Asgon]] (Lake Mithrim), and Nólemë (now also known as ''Fingolma'') begot his son '''Turundo''' (''Turgon'' in Gnomish), who was was born to 'prophecies'. In one version, Nólemë perished when his small boat vanished down a hidden-way as he was sailing to an islanded rock in Asgon to offer sacrifice (it is not said to whom he was sacrificing). In an emended version, Nólemë's host left Asgon, fought with the Orcs, and then encamped at [[Sirion]] where they met the [[Ilkorins]]. When the hosts of Melko approached, the Noldoli retreated to Gorfalon (Valley of the Fountains) where they made the acquaintance of Men and, after sending embassies to [[Túvo]], [[Tinwelint]] (Thingol), and [[Ermon]], Fingolma marshalled a great host. Melko, however, beguiled many of the Men, and they abandoned or betrayed the Elves, resulting in "the terrible [[Battle of Unnumbered Tears]]". While Nólemë's fate is not explicitly stated, it's implied he was slain as his son Turgon escaped and quarrelled with the Sons of Fëanor for leadership.<ref name="lt1x">{{LT1|X}}</ref>

In later outlines of ''The History of the Exiled Gnomes'' the Noldoli bested the Orcs in their first battle with them, capturing the pass of the [[Bitter Hills]], and escaping from the [[Land of Shadows]]. They entered the Forest of Artanor (Doriath) and the Region of the Great Plains and Nólemë's host grew to a vast size. Their chief camp was about Sirion and they drove the Orcs into the foothills of the Iron Mountains. Melko suborned many Men and, in the ensuing Battle of Unnumbered Tears, Nólemë was isolated, slain, and the Orcs cut out his heart; Turgon however rescued Nólemë's body and recaptured his heart. When the Sons of Fëanor eventually arrived they found a stricken field; they buried the body of Nólemë and erected the greatest cairn in the world over it, called by the Gnomes the [[Hill of Death]].<ref name="lt1x" /> Turgon later took his heart, encased it in gold, and took it [[Scarlet Heart|for his emblem]]<ref>{{LT1|Xn}}</ref>{{rp|note 11}}

Prior to his death Fingolma, as well as the Sons of Fëanor, favoured Eöl because he was the leader of the Miners and searched after hidden jewels; Eöl loved from afar Fingolma's daughter Isfin, though she in return loathed him.<ref>{{LT2|IIIn}}</ref>

===Later versions===
In the ''[[Prose Fragments Following the Lost Tales]]'', '''Gelmir''' is the King of the Gnomes. He led his people back to the Great Lands, with his three sons — Golfin, [[Delin]], and [Oleg >] [[Lúthien (son of Gelmir)|Lúthien]] — each captaining one of his armies.<ref>{{SM|P2}}</ref>

In ''[[Ælfwine]]’s translation of the Quenta into Old English; Old English equivalents of Elvish names'', Finwë has a fourth child named, in Old English, "[[Finrún]] Felageómor".<ref>{{SM|QA1}}</ref>

In rejected emendations to ''[[The Annals of Aman]]'', Finwe's wife, Indis, bore him a son, Fëanor, during the Great March while in a forest near the [[Anduin]] in Middle-earth; Fëanor was the first Elf-child to be born via parents (vs awakened by Eru).<ref name="aa3" />{{rp|note 3}} When the Noldor soon after crossed the Misty Mountains, Indis fell into a deep gorge and perished; Finwë would then not go forward until Oromë told him of Elvish reincarnation in Aman, at which point Finwë was eager to continue.<ref name="aa3" />{{rp|note 5}}

In ''The Earliest Version of the Story of Finwë and Míriel'', Finwë and Indis have ''five'' children as they have a third daughter: [[Faniel]].<ref>{{MR|P3II2}}</ref>

===Key dates in early life===
In ''[[The Nature of Middle-earth]]'', multiple considerations for key dates of Finwë's life are considered. As Tolkien fluctuated between different year lengths, when years are preceded by "VY" (Valian Years) that corresponds to [[yén]] (each being 144 solar years) after the creation of the trees; when preceded by "FA" (First Age), that corresponds to löa after the Elves awoke.

In ''Aging of Elves'', Finwë awakened around VY 1050, the Finding (when the Elves were found by Oromë) in 1085, and Finwë wedded Míriel somewhere about 1150.<ref>{{NM|P1ix}}</ref>{{rp|80}}

In ''Key Dates: Text 2A'',<ref group="note">This text precedes ''Text 1'' from the same section</ref> the Finding was in FA 864 and Oromë departed back to Valinor in 912; he returned briefly between 1008-1018, and again in 1058 to invite the Three Ambassadors. Finwë was either the grandson or great-great-grandson of Tata, and born in either FA 1100 or 1022.<ref name="keydates" />

In ''Key Dates: Text 1'', the Finding was in FA 2016 and Oromë departed back to Valinor in 2064. Finwë was a 25th generation descendent of Tata and born in 2120.<ref group="note">In this reckoning, each [[Valian Year]] is equivalent to 144 solar years. The "/104" denotes an additional 104 solar years after the start of VY 865. The year 2120 isn't a direct conversion from "VY 865/104", but a reference to solar years since the start of the First Age with [[Awakening of the Elves]] in VY 850.</ref> He accompanied Oromë as an Ambassador in 2212. A brief consideration was also for Imin, Tata, and Enel to be the Three Ambassadors; and for Ingwë, Finwë, and Elwë to join them as assistants and representatives of the younger Elves.<ref name="keydates" />

In ''Generational Schemes: Text 3: Scheme 2'', Finwë was a 6th generation and born in FA 772. The Finding was in 864, and the Great March in 1070. At the time of the March, he already loved Míriel, and would have married around 1084 if he hadn't postponed until its end.<ref name="genschemes" />

In ''Generational Schemes: Text 3: Scheme 3'', the Finding was in FA 2016. Finwë was a 25th generation and born in 2120. The Embassy was in 2212. Míriel, also in the 25th generation, was born around 2130; and Indis (the first child of Ingwë) was born in 2181.<ref name="genschemes" />

{{references|notes}}
{{seq-start}}
{{seq-head
|race=noldo
|house=[[House of Finwë]]
|born=Between {{YT|1050}} & {{YT|1102|n}}
|died={{YT|1495}}
}}
{{seq
|pvac=None
|prev=''[[Tata]], as Chieftain of the [[Tatyar]]''
|list=1st [[King of the Noldor]]
|dates={{YT|1105}} - {{YT|1490|n}}
|next=[[Fingolfin]]
}}
{{seq-end}}

[[Category:Calaquendi]]
[[Category:Characters in The Book of Lost Tales]]
[[Category:Characters in The Silmarillion]]
[[Category:First Age characters]]
[[Category:House of Finwë]]
[[Category:Noldor]]
[[Category:Qenya names]]
[[Category:Quenya names]]
[[Category:Rulers in Aman]]
[[Category:Rulers in the Great Lands]]
[[Category:Tatyar]]

[[de:Finwe]]
[[fi:Finwë]]
[[fr:/encyclo/personnages/elfes/noldor/finwe]]

User talk:Unireverse

2026-02-12T12:59:42Z

IvarTheBoneless: /* References */ Reply

==Welcome!==

'''{{PAGENAME}}, welcome!'''

Hello and [[Tolkien Gateway:Welcome|welcome]] to '''[[Tolkien Gateway]]'''. I hope you like the place and choose to join our work. Here are a few good links for newcomers:
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I hope you enjoy editing here and we look forward to your future edits. If you have any questions, see the [[Help:Contents|help pages]], add a question to the [[Forums:Council|Council forums]] or ask me on [[User talk:Hyarion|my talk page]]. Keep up the great work! —  [[User:Hyarion|Hyarion]] ([[User talk:Hyarion|talk]]) 14:48, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

==References==

Do you intend to add any references to your expansion of the 'House of Elwe' article? In fact, why haven't you added any references to that article at any point by now, given the fact that you've been fiddling with that article over a dozen edits? [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 13:38, 17 January 2026 (UTC)

:Sorry about that, i'll add the references. Also the preview wasn't loading and I hadn't used the family tree template before so I had to test it to how it worked.
:Will Fix [[User:Unireverse|Unireverse]] ([[User talk:Unireverse|talk]]) 17:20, 17 January 2026 (UTC)
::Ivar could you help with an issue on the page "House of Elwe". I dont know what to do [[User:Unireverse|Unireverse]] ([[User talk:Unireverse|talk]]) 18:06, 17 January 2026 (UTC)
:::Two templates merged together. [[User:Unireverse|Unireverse]] ([[User talk:Unireverse|talk]]) 18:11, 17 January 2026 (UTC)
::::You forgot to put the 'familytree/end'.
::::Also, if you go to 'Help' > 'References', you can find reference templates for various books so that you don't have to manually type them out every time.
::::And lastly, why did you include the false claim that Elwe was the son of Enel and Enelye while you referenced the ''Quendi and Eldar'' essay? [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 11:38, 21 January 2026 (UTC)
:::::Thank you very much [[User:Unireverse|Unireverse]] ([[User talk:Unireverse|talk]]) 10:19, 22 January 2026 (UTC)
:::::Sorry for not responding earlier to the second part of your query.
:::::I looked up Enel and Enelyë on Tolkien Gateway and the family tree shows them as the parents of '''Elwë''', Olwë and Elmo. I incorrectly sourced the text and will endeavour to remedy this as soon as possible.
:::::Thank you for your correction.
:::::{{User:Unireverse/sig}} 11:41, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
::::::Appologies
::::::I have to correct myself again, as far as I can tell the sourcing was actually right, Tolkien did mention it in the histories of middle earth, ''Quendi and Eldar'' section.
::::::Thank you for your help previously
::::::{{User:Unireverse/sig}} 12:18, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::::Do you actually have access to ''The War of the Jewels''? Because if not, it's no problem - so long as you don't falsely attribute Elwe being Enel's son to it (because it doesn't appear there).
:::::::As for the family tree on Tolkien Gateway that you saw: if you look more carefully you'll note that the line between Elwe/Olwe/Elmo and Enel/Enelye is ''dashed'', which indicates '''descent through multiple generations''' (I even added additional space between Elwe and Enel in those family trees to drive the point home, but evidently I failed).
:::::::So, I ask you again: how on earth did you come up with pp. 380-1 of ''The War of the Jewels'' as the source of Thingol's parents being Enel and Enelye?
:::::::Enel and Enelye appear in ''The War of the Jewels'', yes, but it wasn't until ''The Nature of Middle-earth'' was published in 2021 that an explicit connection was drawn between Elwe and Enel in the first place. [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 12:03, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
::::::::Can I add that source then since both are correct? Or should i remove it and switch, I remembered them from the book, so when I saw it on the "Enel" page I assumed it was right. Sorry for the consistent errors in my sourcing, please do correct me when I am wrong. I'll make sure that I understand the family trees better.
::::::::{{User:Unireverse/sig}} 12:24, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
::::::::Sorry for that error (again), I misread the family tree on the "Enel" page. Also when I read the book I remembered hearing their names and assumed that the source was correct. Again sorry for the inconvenience and thank you.
::::::::Also if you could, would you be willing to check some of my other edits, I would hate to add misinformation to the website through my own ineptitude and would appreciate this favor greatly.
::::::::{{User:Unireverse/sig}} 12:38, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::::::Please don't self-deprecate - it's just an annoying self-defense mechanism.
:::::::::You're not stupid or inept, you just didn't bother to properly read the text that you put as a source for Thingol's supposed 'Enel parentage'.
:::::::::For that matter - the 'Help' toolbar also exists, and if you need any additional help, ask me or any other user here. (But in my experience, just previewing other people's edits and watching what they do has been the most helpful of all.) [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 12:59, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
::::::::Oops I've accidentally sent two apologies because I thought the first didnt send.
::::::::{{User:Unireverse/sig}} 12:43, 12 February 2026 (UTC)

House of Elwë

2026-02-12T12:10:23Z

IvarTheBoneless:

{{Expansion}}{{Sources}}
{{Noble House infobox
| name=House of Elwë
| image=J.R.R. Tolkien - Elwë heraldic device.jpg
| founder=Elwë Singollo
| location=The woodland kingdom of [[Doriath]]
| race=[[Sindar]]
| destroyed=First destroyed in [[F.A. 503]], it was restored by [[Dior]] for three years before its final end in [[F.A. 506]]
}}

The '''House of Elwë''' [[Thingol|Singollo]] was the royal family that ruled the land of [[Doriath]] for millennia.

==History==
===Origins===
The ancient line was started by '''Elwë''' Singollo (also known as [[Thingol|Elu Thingol]]) in the [[Year of the Trees 1152|Y.T. 1152]], when upon waking from his trance he appeared before his people (the [[Sindar]]) with [[Melian]] and gathered them together to form [[Doriath]], the mighty woodland kingdom in [[Beleriand]].<ref>{{AA|74}}</ref>

===Death of Thingol===
Thingol, after being given the golden necklace, [[Nauglamír]], by [[Húrin]] employed skilled dwarven smiths of [[Nogrod]] to restore the necklace to its former magnificence.<ref>[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], [[Christopher Tolkien]] (ed.), ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', "''[[Quenta Silmarillion]]'': [[Of the Ruin of Doriath]]"</ref> But the [[Dwarves]], being enamoured of the beautiful treasure and the [[Silmarils|Silmaril]] it contained, sought to have it to themselves. After completing their work they refused to hand Nauglamír over, claiming he had no right to the craftsmanship of the dwarves. Thingol, perceiving that they wanted the Silmaril, bade them leave his land without payment. But the smiths slew him, took the mighty jewel, and fled towards the mountains.

==Genealogy==
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree | | | | | THI |~|y|~| MEL | | | | | THI=[[Thingol|Elwë/Thingol]]| MEL=[[Melian]]}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | |!| | | | | | | }}
{{familytree | | BER |~|y|~| LUT | | | | | | BER=[[Beren]]| LUT=[[Lúthien]]}}
{{familytree | | | | | |!| | | | | | | | | }}
{{familytree | | | | | DIO |~|y|~| NIM | | | DIO=[[Dior]]| NIM=[[Nimloth]]}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | |!| | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | |,|-|-|-|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|-|-|.| |}}
{{familytree | | ELR | | | | ELU | | | | ELW |~|y|~| EAR | |ELR=[[Eluréd]]| ELU=[[Elurín]]| ELW=[[Elwing]]| EAR=[[Eärendil]]}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |,|-|-|^|-|-|.|}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ELR | | | | ELS | | ELR=[[Elrond]]| ELS=[[Elros]]}}
{{familytree/end}}

{{References}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:House of Elwe}}
[[Category:Elven noble houses]]
[[Category:House of Elwë| ]]

User talk:Unireverse

2026-02-12T12:03:55Z

IvarTheBoneless: /* References */ Reply

Beleth

2026-01-24T12:30:08Z

IvarTheBoneless:

{{infobox character
| people=[[Edain|Adan]]
| name=Beleth
| image=Juliana Pinho - Beleth and Beren.png
| caption="Beleth and Beren" by [[:Category:Images by Juliana Pinho|Juliana Pinho]]
| pronun=
| othernames=
| titles=
| position=
| location=
| affiliation=
| language=
| birth={{FA|417}}
| birthlocation=
| rule=
| death=
| deathlocation=
| age=
| notablefor=
| house=[[House of Bëor]]
| parentage=[[Bregolas]]
| siblings=[[Baragund]] and [[Belegund]]
| spouse=
| children=
| gender=Female
| height=
| hair=
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=
| steed=
}}
'''Beleth''' (born {{FA|417}}) was the eldest child and only daughter of [[Bregolas]].

==History==
Beleth was two years older than her elder brother [[Baragund]] and four years older than her younger brother [[Belegund]]. After the [[Dagor Bragollach]], most women and children of the house of Bëor were forced to flee Dorthonion. No tales relate the fate of Beleth; her brothers fell with their uncle [[Barahir]] when their [[Barahir's outlaws|band of outlaws]] was betrayed.<ref name="Ruin">{{S|Fingolfin}}</ref> Through her father Bregolas, Beleth was the cousin of the renowned ''[[Beren]] the One-handed''.

Beleth's remote descendant in the [[Second Age]] was [[Beregar]], father of [[Erendis]].<ref name="WJBeor">{{WJ|14}}, ''(i) House of Bëor''.</ref> Hence, it is assumed that Beleth was married and had descendants from her unknown children.

==Genealogy==
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | BRE | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |BRE=[[Bregor]] ''{{FA|359|n}} - {{FA|448|n}}''}}
{{familytree | |,|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|.| | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | BRE | | HIR | | BRG | | GIL | | BAR |y| EME | | |BRE=[[Bregil]] ''b. {{FA|386|n}}''|HIR=[[Hirwen]] ''{{FA|389|n}}''|BRG=[[Bregolas]] ''{{FA|393|n}} - {{FA|455|n}}''|GIL=[[Gilwen]] ''b. {{FA|397|n}}''|BAR=[[Barahir]] ''{{FA|400|n}} - {{FA|460|n}}''|EME=[[Emeldir]] ''b. {{FA|406|n}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | |,|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|.| | | | | |!| | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | BET | | BAR | | BEG | | | | BER |y| LUT |BET='''BELETH''' ''b. {{FA|417|n}}''|BAR=[[Baragund]] ''{{FA|420|n}} - {{FA|460|n}}''|BEG=[[Belegund]] ''{{FA|422|n}} - {{FA|460|n}}''|BER=[[Beren]] ''{{FA|432|n}} - {{FA|503|n}}''|LUT=[[Lúthien]] ''{{YT|1200}} - {{FA|503}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | |:| | | |!| | | |!| | | | | | | |!| | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | |:| | | MOR | | RIA | | | | | | DIO | | |MOR=[[Morwen]] ''{{FA|441|n}} - {{FA|501|n}}''|RIA=[[Rían]] ''{{FA|450|n}} - {{FA|472|n}}''|DIO=[[Dior]] ''{{FA|470|n}} - {{FA|506|n}}''}}
{{familytree | NUN |y| BER | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |BER=[[Beregar]] ''[[Second Age]]''|NUN=[[Núneth]] ''[[Second Age]]''}}
{{familytree | | | |!| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | ERE |y| ALD | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |ALD=[[Tar-Aldarion]] ''{{SA|700}} - {{SA|1098|n}}''|ERE=[[Erendis]] ''{{SA|771}} - {{SA|985|n}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | |!| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | ANC | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |ANC=[[Tar-Ancalimë]] ''{{SA|873}} - {{SA|1285|n}}''}}
{{familytree/end}}

==Other versions of the legendarium==
In an early version of the House of Bëor, Beleth was the daughter of [[Boron]] and thus aunt to Bregor. In the last revision to the genealogy Beleth was moved down three generations.<ref name="WJBeor" />

Beleth is also known as "Bereth" in a note to "''Aldarion and Erendis''" in ''Unfinished Tales'';<ref>[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], [[Christopher Tolkien]] (ed.), ''[[Unfinished Tales]]'', Part Two. The Second Age: "''Aldarion and Erendis'' Chapter 2)."</ref> however [[Christopher Tolkien]] noted that this was a mistake on his part years later.<ref>{{WJ|14c}}, "''The new genealogies of the Edain''", "''(i) The House of Bëor''", p. 232</ref>

{{references}}
[[Category:Edain]]
[[Category:First Age characters]]
[[Category:House of Bëor]]

[[de:Beleth]]
[[fi:Beleth]]
[[fr:encyclo:personnages:hommes:1a:peuple de beor:beleth]]

Beleth

2026-01-24T12:28:44Z

IvarTheBoneless:

{{infobox character
| people=[[Edain|Adan]]
| name=Beleth
| image=Juliana Pinho - Beleth and Beren.png
| caption="Beleth and Beren" by [[:Category:Images by Juliana Pinho|Juliana Pinho]]
| pronun=
| othernames=
| titles=
| position=
| location=
| affiliation=
| language=
| birth={{FA|417}}
| birthlocation=
| rule=
| death=
| deathlocation=
| age=
| notablefor=
| house=[[House of Bëor]]
| parentage=[[Bregolas]]
| siblings=[[Baragund]] and [[Belegund]]
| spouse=
| children=
| gender=Female
| height=
| hair=
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=
| steed=
}}
'''Beleth''' (born {{FA|417}}) was the eldest child and only daughter of [[Bregolas]].

==History==
Beleth was two years older than her elder brother [[Baragund]] and four years older than her younger brother [[Belegund]]. After the [[Dagor Bragollach]], most women and children of the house of Bëor were forced to flee Dorthonion. No tales relate the fate of Beleth; her brothers fell with their uncle [[Barahir]] when their [[Barahir's outlaws|band of outlaws]] was betrayed.<ref name="Ruin">{{S|Fingolfin}}</ref> Through her father Bregolas, Beleth was the cousin of the renowned ''[[Beren]] the One-handed''.

Beleth's remote descendant in the [[Second Age]] was [[Beregar]], father of [[Erendis]].<ref name="WJBeor">{{WJ|14}}, ''(i) House of Bëor''.</ref> Hence, it is assumed that Beleth was married and had descendants from her unknown children.

==Genealogy==
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | BRE | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |BRE=[[Bregor]] ''{{FA|359|n}} - {{FA|448|n}}''}}
{{familytree | |,|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|.| | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | BRE | | HIR | | BRG | | GIL | | BAR |y| EME | | |BRE=[[Bregil]] ''b. {{FA|386|n}}''|HIR=[[Hirwen]] ''{{FA|389|n}}''|BRG=[[Bregolas]] ''{{FA|393|n}} - {{FA|455|n}}''|GIL=[[Gilwen]] ''b. {{FA|397|n}}''|BAR=[[Barahir]] ''{{FA|400|n}} - {{FA|460|n}}''|EME=[[Emeldir]] ''b. {{FA|406|n}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | |,|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|.| | | | | |!| | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | BET | | BAR | | BEG | | | | BER |y| LUT |BET='''BELETH''' ''b. {{FA|417|n}}''|BAR=[[Baragund]] ''{{FA|420|n}} - {{FA|460|n}}''|BEG=[[Belegund]] ''{{FA|422|n}} - {{FA|460|n}}''|BER=[[Beren]] ''{{FA|432|n}} - {{FA|503|n}}''|LUT=[[Lúthien]] ''{{YT|1200}} - {{FA|503}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | |:| | | |!| | | |!| | | | | | | |!| | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | |:| | | MOR | | RIA | | | | | | DIO | | |MOR=[[Morwen]] ''{{FA|441|n}} - {{FA|501|n}}''|RIA=[[Rían]] ''{{FA|450|n}} - {{FA|472|n}}''|DIO=[[Dior]] ''{{FA|470|n}} - {{FA|506|n}}''}}
{{familytree | NUN |y| BER | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |BER=[[Beregar]] ''[[Second Age]]''|NUN=[[Núneth]] ''[[Second Age]]''}}
{{familytree | | | |!| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | ERE |y| ALD | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |ALD=[[Tar-Aldarion]] ''{{SA|700}} - {{SA|1098|n}}''|ERE=[[Erendis]] ''{{SA|771}} - {{SA|985|n}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | |!| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | ANC | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |ANC=[[Tar-Ancalimë]] ''{{SA|873}} - {{SA|1285|n}}''}}
{{familytree/end}}

==Other versions of the legendarium==
In an early version of the House of Bëor, Beleth was the daughter of [[Boron]] and thus aunt to Bregor. In the last revision to the genealogy Beleth was moved down three generations.<ref name="WJBeor" />

Beleth is also known as "Bereth" in a note to "''Aldarion and Erendis''" in ''Unfinished Tales'',<ref>[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], [[Christopher Tolkien]] (ed.), ''[[Unfinished Tales]]'', Part Two. The Second Age: "''Aldarion and Erendis'' Chapter 2)."</ref> however [[Christopher Tolkien]] noted that this was a mistake on his part years later.<ref>{{WJ|14c}}, "''The new genealogies of the Edain''", "''(i) The House of Bëor''", p. 232</ref>

{{references}}
[[Category:Edain]]
[[Category:First Age characters]]
[[Category:House of Bëor]]

[[de:Beleth]]
[[fi:Beleth]]
[[fr:encyclo:personnages:hommes:1a:peuple de beor:beleth]]

User talk:Sugar915

2026-01-24T12:22:55Z

IvarTheBoneless:

== About 'Bereth' ==

Christopher Tolkien said that 'Bereth' was a mistake in ''The War of the Jewels'', 'The Later ''Quenta Silmarillion''<nowiki/>', 'The new genealogies of the Edain/'The House of Beor', p. 232:

''"...in my note on this (p. 214, note 10 [in the 'Unfinished Tales']) I referred to her [Erendis'] descent as given in the present genealogical table, '''but gave her ancestor's name wrongly as 'Bereth'.'''"''

- square brackets are my additions. [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 12:21, 24 January 2026 (UTC)

User talk:Sugar915

2026-01-24T12:21:48Z

IvarTheBoneless: /* About 'Bereth' */ new section

== About 'Bereth' ==

Christopher Tolkien said that 'Bereth' was a mistake in ''The War of the Jewels'', 'The Later ''Quenta Silmarillion''<nowiki/>', 'The new genealogies of the Edain/'The House of Beor', p. 232:

''"...in my note on this (p. 214, note 10 [in the 'Unfinished Tales']) I referred to her [Erendis'] descent as given in the present genealogical table, '''but gave her ancestor's name wrongly as 'Bereth'.'''"''

- square brackets are my additions [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 12:21, 24 January 2026 (UTC)

Beleth

2026-01-24T12:16:09Z

IvarTheBoneless: Undo revision 431227 by Sugar915 (talk)

{{infobox character
| people=[[Edain|Adan]]
| name=Beleth
| image=Juliana Pinho - Beleth and Beren.png
| caption="Beleth and Beren" by [[:Category:Images by Juliana Pinho|Juliana Pinho]]
| pronun=
| othernames=
| titles=
| position=
| location=
| affiliation=
| language=
| birth={{FA|417}}
| birthlocation=
| rule=
| death=
| deathlocation=
| age=
| notablefor=
| house=[[House of Bëor]]
| parentage=[[Bregolas]]
| siblings=[[Baragund]] and [[Belegund]]
| spouse=
| children=
| gender=Female
| height=
| hair=
| eyes=
| clothing=
| weapons=
| steed=
}}
'''Beleth''' (born {{FA|417}}) was the eldest child and only daughter of [[Bregolas]].

==History==
Beleth was two years older than her elder brother [[Baragund]] and four years older than her younger brother [[Belegund]]. After the [[Dagor Bragollach]], most women and children of the house of Bëor were forced to flee Dorthonion. No tales relate the fate of Beleth; her brothers fell with their uncle [[Barahir]] when their [[Barahir's outlaws|band of outlaws]] was betrayed.<ref name="Ruin">{{S|Fingolfin}}</ref> Through her father Bregolas, Beleth was the cousin of the renowned ''[[Beren]] the One-handed''.

Beleth's remote descendant in the [[Second Age]] was [[Beregar]], father of [[Erendis]].<ref name="WJBeor">{{WJ|14}}, ''(i) House of Bëor''.</ref> Hence, it is assumed that Beleth was married and had descendants from her unknown children.

==Genealogy==
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | BRE | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |BRE=[[Bregor]] ''{{FA|359|n}} - {{FA|448|n}}''}}
{{familytree | |,|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|v|-|-|-|.| | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | BRE | | HIR | | BRG | | GIL | | BAR |y| EME | | |BRE=[[Bregil]] ''b. {{FA|386|n}}''|HIR=[[Hirwen]] ''{{FA|389|n}}''|BRG=[[Bregolas]] ''{{FA|393|n}} - {{FA|455|n}}''|GIL=[[Gilwen]] ''b. {{FA|397|n}}''|BAR=[[Barahir]] ''{{FA|400|n}} - {{FA|460|n}}''|EME=[[Emeldir]] ''b. {{FA|406|n}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | |,|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|.| | | | | |!| | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | BET | | BAR | | BEG | | | | BER |y| LUT |BET='''BELETH''' ''b. {{FA|417|n}}''|BAR=[[Baragund]] ''{{FA|420|n}} - {{FA|460|n}}''|BEG=[[Belegund]] ''{{FA|422|n}} - {{FA|460|n}}''|BER=[[Beren]] ''{{FA|432|n}} - {{FA|503|n}}''|LUT=[[Lúthien]] ''{{YT|1200}} - {{FA|503}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | |:| | | |!| | | |!| | | | | | | |!| | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | |:| | | MOR | | RIA | | | | | | DIO | | |MOR=[[Morwen]] ''{{FA|441|n}} - {{FA|501|n}}''|RIA=[[Rían]] ''{{FA|450|n}} - {{FA|472|n}}''|DIO=[[Dior]] ''{{FA|470|n}} - {{FA|506|n}}''}}
{{familytree | NUN |y| BER | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |BER=[[Beregar]] ''[[Second Age]]''|NUN=[[Núneth]] ''[[Second Age]]''}}
{{familytree | | | |!| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | ERE |y| ALD | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |ALD=[[Tar-Aldarion]] ''{{SA|700}} - {{SA|1098|n}}''|ERE=[[Erendis]] ''{{SA|771}} - {{SA|985|n}}''}}
{{familytree | | | | | |!| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | | | | | ANC | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |ANC=[[Tar-Ancalimë]] ''{{SA|873}} - {{SA|1285|n}}''}}
{{familytree/end}}

==Other versions of the legendarium==
In an early version of the House of Bëor, Beleth was the daughter of [[Boron]] and thus aunt to Bregor. In the last revision to the genealogy Beleth was moved down three generations.<ref name="WJBeor" />

Beleth is also known as "Bereth" in a note to "''Aldarion and Erendis''" in ''Unfinished Tales''.<ref>[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], [[Christopher Tolkien]] (ed.), ''[[Unfinished Tales]]'', Part Two. The Second Age: "''Aldarion and Erendis'' Chapter 2)."</ref>

{{references}}
[[Category:Edain]]
[[Category:First Age characters]]
[[Category:House of Bëor]]

[[de:Beleth]]
[[fi:Beleth]]
[[fr:encyclo:personnages:hommes:1a:peuple de beor:beleth]]

User talk:Unireverse

2026-01-21T11:38:41Z

IvarTheBoneless: /* References */ Reply

House of Elwë

2026-01-21T11:32:54Z

IvarTheBoneless:

House of Elwë

2026-01-21T11:31:52Z

IvarTheBoneless: 'Quendi and Eldar' doesn't mention Thingol being the son of Enel and Enelye??

{{Expansion}}{{Sources}}
{{Noble House infobox
| name=House of Elwë
| image=J.R.R. Tolkien - Elwë heraldic device.jpg
| founder=Elwë Singollo
| location=The woodland kingdom of [[Doriath]]
| race=[[Sindar]]
| destroyed=First destroyed in [[F.A. 503]], it was restored by [[Dior]] for three years before its final end in [[F.A. 506]]
}}

The '''House of Elwë''' [[Thingol|Singollo]] was the royal family that ruled the land of [[Doriath]] for millennia.

==History==
===Origins===
The ancient line was started by '''Elwë''' Singollo (also known as [[Thingol|Elu Thingol]]) in the [[Year of the Trees 1152|Y.T. 1152]], when upon waking from his trance he appeared before his people (the [[Sindar]]) with [[Melian]] and gathered them together to form the mighty woodland kingdom in [[Beleriand]].<ref>{{AA|74}}</ref>

===Death of Thingol===
Thingol, after being given the golden necklace, [[Nauglamír]], by [[Húrin]] employed skilled dwarven smiths of [[Nogrod]] to restore the necklace to its former magnificence.<ref>[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], [[Christopher Tolkien]] (ed.), ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', "''[[Quenta Silmarillion]]'': [[Of the Ruin of Doriath]]"</ref> But the [[Dwarves]], being enamoured of the beautiful treasure and the [[Silmarils|Silmaril]] it contained, sought to have it to themselves. After completing their work they refused to hand Nauglamír over, claiming he had no right to the craftsmanship of the dwarves. Thingol, perceiving that they wanted the Silmaril, bade them leave his land without payment. But the smiths slew him, took the mighty jewel, and fled towards the mountains.

==Genealogy==
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree | | | | | THI |~|y|~| MEL | | | | | THI=[[Thingol|Elwë/Thingol]]| MEL=[[Melian]]}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | |!| | | | | | | }}
{{familytree | | BER |~|y|~| LUT | | | | | | BER=[[Beren]]| LUT=[[Lúthien]]}}
{{familytree | | | | | |!| | | | | | | | | }}
{{familytree | | | | | DIO |~|y|~| NIM | | | DIO=[[Dior]]| NIM=[[Nimloth]]}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | |!| | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | |,|-|-|-|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|-|-|.| |}}
{{familytree | | ELR | | | | ELU | | | | ELW |~|y|~| EAR | |ELR=[[Eluréd]]| ELU=[[Elurín]]| ELW=[[Elwing]]| EAR=[[Eärendil]]}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |,|-|-|^|-|-|.|}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ELR | | | | ELS | | ELR=[[Elrond]]| ELS=[[Elros]]}}
{{familytree/end}}

{{References}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:House of Elwe}}
[[Category:Elven noble houses]]
[[Category:House of Elwë| ]]

House of Elwë

2026-01-21T11:29:19Z

IvarTheBoneless:

{{Expansion}}{{Sources}}
{{Noble House infobox
| name=House of Elwë
| image=J.R.R. Tolkien - Elwë heraldic device.jpg
| founder=Elwë Singollo
| location=The woodland kingdom of [[Doriath]]
| race=[[Sindar]]
| destroyed=First destroyed in [[F.A. 503]], it was restored by [[Dior]] for three years before its final end in [[F.A. 506]]
}}

The '''House of Elwë''' [[Thingol|Singollo]] was the royal family that ruled the land of [[Doriath]] for millennia.

==History==
===Origins===
The ancient line was started by '''Elwë''' Singollo (also known as [[Thingol|Elu Thingol]]) in the [[Year of the Trees 1152|Y.T. 1152]], when upon waking from his trance he appeared before his people (the [[Sindar]]) with [[Melian]] and gathered them together to form the mighty woodland kingdom in Beleriand.<ref>{{AA|74}}</ref> '''Elwë''' was the son of [[Enel]] and [[Enelyë]] the third elven male and female to enter into the world.<ref>[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], [[Christopher Tolkien]] (ed.), ''[[The War of the Jewels]]'', "Part Four. [[Quendi and Eldar]]", pp. 380-1</ref>

===Death of Thingol===
Thingol, after being given the golden necklace, [[Nauglamír]], by [[Húrin]] employed skilled dwarven smiths of [[Nogrod]] to restore the necklace to its former magnificence.<ref>[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], [[Christopher Tolkien]] (ed.), ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', "''[[Quenta Silmarillion]]'': [[Of the Ruin of Doriath]]"</ref> But the [[Dwarves]], being enamoured of the beautiful treasure and the [[Silmarils|Silmaril]] it contained, sought to have it to themselves. After completing their work they refused to hand Nauglamír over, claiming he had no right to the craftsmanship of the dwarves. Thingol, perceiving that they wanted the Silmaril, bade them leave his land without payment. But the smiths slew him, took the mighty jewel, and fled towards the mountains.

==Genealogy==
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree | | | | | THI |~|y|~| MEL | | | | | THI=[[Thingol|Elwë/Thingol]]| MEL=[[Melian]]}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | |!| | | | | | | }}
{{familytree | | BER |~|y|~| LUT | | | | | | BER=[[Beren]]| LUT=[[Lúthien]]}}
{{familytree | | | | | |!| | | | | | | | | }}
{{familytree | | | | | DIO |~|y|~| NIM | | | DIO=[[Dior]]| NIM=[[Nimloth]]}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | |!| | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | |,|-|-|-|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|-|-|.| |}}
{{familytree | | ELR | | | | ELU | | | | ELW |~|y|~| EAR | |ELR=[[Eluréd]]| ELU=[[Elurín]]| ELW=[[Elwing]]| EAR=[[Eärendil]]}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |,|-|-|^|-|-|.|}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ELR | | | | ELS | | ELR=[[Elrond]]| ELS=[[Elros]]}}
{{familytree/end}}

{{References}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:House of Elwe}}
[[Category:Elven noble houses]]
[[Category:House of Elwë| ]]

House of Elwë

2026-01-21T11:28:22Z

IvarTheBoneless:

{{Expansion}}{{Sources}}
{{Noble House infobox
| name=House of Elwë
| image=J.R.R. Tolkien - Elwë heraldic device.jpg
| founder=Elwë Singollo
| location=The woodland kingdom of [[Doriath]]
| race=[[Sindar]]
| destroyed=First destroyed in [[F.A. 503]], it was restored by [[Dior]] for three years before its final end in [[F.A. 506]]
}}

The '''House of Elwë''' [[Thingol|Singollo]] was the royal family that ruled the land of [[Doriath]] for millennia.

==History==
===Origins===
The ancient line was started by '''Elwë''' Singollo (also known as [[Thingol|Elu Thingol]]) in the [[Year of the Trees 1152|Y.T. 1152]], when upon waking from his trance he appeared before his people (the [[Sindar]]) with [[Melian]] and gathered them together to form the mighty woodland kingdom in Beleriand.<ref>{{AA|74}}</ref> '''Elwë''' was the son of [[Enel]] and [[Enelyë]] the third elven male and female to enter into the world.<ref>[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], [[Christopher Tolkien]] (ed.), ''[[The War of the Jewels]]'', "Part Four. [[Quendi and Eldar]]", pp. 380-1</ref>

===Death of Thingol===
Thingol, after being given the golden necklace, [[Nauglamír]], by [[Húrin]] employed skilled dwarven smiths of [[Nogrod]] to restore the necklace to its former magnificence.<ref>[[J.R.R. Tolkien]], [[Christopher Tolkien]] (ed.), ''[[The Silmarillion]]'', "''[[Quenta Silmarillion]]'': [[Of the Ruin of Doriath]]"</ref> But the [[Dwarves]], being enamoured of the beautiful treasure and the [[Silmarils|Silmaril]] it contained, sought to have it to themselves. After completing their work they refused to hand Nauglamír over, claiming he had no right to the craftsmanship of the dwarves. Thingol, perceiving that they wanted the Silmaril, bade them leave his land without payment. But the smiths slew him, took the mighty jewel, and fled towards the mountains.

==Genealogy==
{{familytree/start}}
{{familytree | | | | | THI |~|y|~| MEL | | | | | THI=[[Thingol|Elwë/Thingol]]| MEL=[[Melian]]}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | |!| | | | | | | }}
{{familytree | | BER |~|y|~| LUT | | | | | | BER=[[Beren]]| LUT=[[Lúthien]]}}
{{familytree | | | | | |!| | | | | | | | | }}
{{familytree | | | | | DIO |~|y|~| NIM | | | DIO=[[Dior]]| NIM=[[Nimloth]]}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | |!| | | | | | | | |}}
{{familytree | |,|-|-|-|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|-|-|.| |}}
{{familytree | | ELR | | | | ELU | | | | ELW |~|y|~| EAR | |ELR=[[Eluréd]]| ELU=[[Elurín]]| ELW=[[Elwing]]| EAR=[[Eärendil]]}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |,|-|-|^|-|-|.|}}
{{familytree | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ELR | | | | ELS | | ELR=[[Elrond]]| ELS=[[Elros]]}}

{{References}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:House of Elwe}}
[[Category:Elven noble houses]]
[[Category:House of Elwë| ]]

User talk:Unireverse

2026-01-17T13:38:09Z

IvarTheBoneless: /* References */ new section

Fëanorian lamps

2026-01-02T12:57:03Z

IvarTheBoneless:

{{disambig-more|Fëanorian|[[Fëanorian (disambiguation)]]}}
{{object infobox
| name=Fëanorian lamps
| image = Peter Xavier Price - Gelmir with the Noldorin Lamp.jpg
| caption="Gelmir with the Noldorin Lamp" by [[Peter Xavier Price]]
| pronun=
| othernames=
| location=[[Valinor]], later [[Middle-earth]]
| owner=[[Noldor]]
| type=Object
| appearance=Blue flame in a white crystal
| creator=[[Fëanor]] (inventor)
| created=
| createdlocation=
| destroyer=
| destroyed=
| destroyedlocation=
| notablefor=
}}
{{quote|...they were made of old in [[Valinor]], and neither wind nor water could quench them, and when they were unhooded they sent forth a clear blue light from a flame imprisoned in white crystal.|''[[Unfinished Tales]]'', [[Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin]]}}

'''Fëanorian lamps''' were lamps which emitted a blue light from a flame from within a white crystal. They are described as "crystals hung in a fine chain net, the crystals being ever shining with an inner blue radiance". The lamps were created in [[Valinor]] and the flame could not be extinguished by wind or water. The [[Noldor]] were famous for the flames, but unfortunately the craft was lost with them. [[Gelmir (messenger of Círdan)|Gelmir]] possessed one of these lamps when he met [[Tuor]].<ref>{{UT|Tuor}}</ref>

Some of the Noldor who had been captured by [[Morgoth]] and put to work in his mines had Fëanorian lamps with them. [[Gwindor]] was one of these enslaved Elves, and when he escaped he took with him one of these lamps.<ref name="CH9">{{CH|9}}</ref>

[[File:Ted Nasmith - Tuor, Gelmir, and Arminas.jpg|thumb|right|190px|"Tuor, Gelmir, and Arminas" by [[Ted Nasmith]]]]

In the [[Third Age]], the [[Galadhrim|Elves of Lothlórien]] used similar devices: small lamps that gave out slender silver beams.<ref>{{FR|Lorien}}</ref>

==Other versions of the legendarium==
The lamps were part of the [[legendarium]] from very early stages, but [[Christopher Tolkien]] did not mention them in the published ''[[Silmarillion]]''. For example, in one version of the story, [[Túrin Turambar]] recognised the face of [[Beleg]] whom he had slain by the light of Gwindor's lamp;<ref>{{UT|Tuor}}, p. 51, note 2</ref> yet in the version included in the ''Silmarillion'', it was lightning which revealed Beleg's face to Túrin.<ref name="CH9"/>

A detailed description of the nature of the lamps is described in the early ''[[Lay of the Children of Húrin]]'', when Beleg finds Gwindor in the forest of [[Taur-nu-Fuin (Dorthonion)|Taur-nu-Fuin]] after seeing his lamp shining in the distance:

{{blockquote|But little lanterns   of lucent crystal 
and silver cold   with subtlest cunning 
they strangely fashioned,   and steadfast a flame 
burnt unblinking   there blue and pale, 
unquenched for ever.   The craft that lit them 
was the jewel-makers'   most jealous secret. 
Not Morgoth's might,   nor meed nor torment 
them vowed, availed   to reveal that lore; 
yet lights and lamps   of living radiance, 
many and magical,   they made for him. 
No dark could dim them   the deeps wandering; 
whose lode they lit   was lost seldom 
in groundless grot,   or gulfs far under.|''[[The Lay of the Children of Húrin]]'', II. Beleg, vv. 787-799}}

This scene of Beleg finding Gwindor with one of these lamps was painted by [[J.R.R. Tolkien]] and published in ''[[Pictures by J.R.R. Tolkien]]'' (1979), [[:File:J.R.R. Tolkien - Fangorn Forest.jpg|no. 37]].

{{references}}
[[Category:Objects]]
[[de: Feanorische Lampen]]

Fëanorian lamps

2026-01-02T12:56:13Z

IvarTheBoneless:

{{disambig-more|Fëanorian|[[Fëanorian (disambiguation)]]}}
{{object infobox
| name=Fëanorian lamps
| image = Peter Xavier Price - Gelmir with the Noldorin Lamp.jpg
| caption="Gelmir with the Noldorin Lamp" by [[Peter Xavier Price]]
| pronun=
| othernames=
| location=[[Valinor]], later [[Middle-earth]]
| owner=[[Noldor]]
| type=Object
| appearance=Blue flame in a white crystal
| creator=[[Fëanor]] (inventor)
| created=
| createdlocation=
| destroyer=
| destroyed=
| destroyedlocation=
| notablefor=
}}
{{quote|...they were made of old in [[Valinor]], and neither wind nor water could quench them, and when they were unhooded they sent forth a clear blue light from a flame imprisoned in white crystal.|''[[Unfinished Tales]]'', [[Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin]]}}

'''Fëanorian lamps''' were lamps which emitted a blue light from a flame from within a white crystal. They are described as "crystals hung in a fine chain net, the crystals being ever shining with an inner blue radiance". The lamps were created in [[Valinor]] and the flame could not be extinguished by wind or water. The [[Noldor]] were famous for the flames, but unfortunately the craft was lost with them. [[Gelmir (messenger of Círdan)|Gelmir]] possessed one of these lamps when he met [[Tuor]].<ref>{{UT|Tuor}}</ref>

Some of the Noldor who had been captured by [[Morgoth]] and put to work in his mines had Fëanorian lamps with them. [[Gwindor]] was one of these enslaved Elves, and when he escaped he took with him one of these lamps.<ref name="CH9">{{CH|9}}</ref>

[[File:Ted Nasmith - Tuor, Gelmir, and Arminas.jpg|thumb|right|190px|"Tuor, Gelmir, and Arminas" by Ted Nasmith]]

In the [[Third Age]], the [[Galadhrim|Elves of Lothlórien]] used similar devices: small lamps that gave out slender silver beams.<ref>{{FR|Lorien}}</ref>

==Other versions of the legendarium==
The lamps were part of the [[legendarium]] from very early stages, but [[Christopher Tolkien]] did not mention them in the published ''[[Silmarillion]]''. For example, in one version of the story, [[Túrin Turambar]] recognised the face of [[Beleg]] whom he had slain by the light of Gwindor's lamp;<ref>{{UT|Tuor}}, p. 51, note 2</ref> yet in the version included in the ''Silmarillion'', it was lightning which revealed Beleg's face to Túrin.<ref name="CH9"/>

A detailed description of the nature of the lamps is described in the early ''[[Lay of the Children of Húrin]]'', when Beleg finds Gwindor in the forest of [[Taur-nu-Fuin (Dorthonion)|Taur-nu-Fuin]] after seeing his lamp shining in the distance:

{{blockquote|But little lanterns   of lucent crystal 
and silver cold   with subtlest cunning 
they strangely fashioned,   and steadfast a flame 
burnt unblinking   there blue and pale, 
unquenched for ever.   The craft that lit them 
was the jewel-makers'   most jealous secret. 
Not Morgoth's might,   nor meed nor torment 
them vowed, availed   to reveal that lore; 
yet lights and lamps   of living radiance, 
many and magical,   they made for him. 
No dark could dim them   the deeps wandering; 
whose lode they lit   was lost seldom 
in groundless grot,   or gulfs far under.|''[[The Lay of the Children of Húrin]]'', II. Beleg, vv. 787-799}}

This scene of Beleg finding Gwindor with one of these lamps was painted by [[J.R.R. Tolkien]] and published in ''[[Pictures by J.R.R. Tolkien]]'' (1979), [[:File:J.R.R. Tolkien - Fangorn Forest.jpg|no. 37]].

{{references}}
[[Category:Objects]]
[[de: Feanorische Lampen]]

File:Ted Nasmith - Tuor, Gelmir, and Arminas.jpg

2026-01-02T10:38:35Z

IvarTheBoneless:

{{Copyright-permission|[[Ted Nasmith]]|[http://www.tednasmith.com/ Ted Nasmith's website]|Ted Nasmith}}

[[Category:Images by Ted Nasmith]]
[[Category:Images of Arminas]]
[[Category:Images of Fëanorian lamps]]
[[Category:Images of the Gate of the Noldor]]
[[Category:Images of Gelmir (messenger of Círdan)]]
[[Category:Images of Tuor]]

Fëanorian lamps

2026-01-02T10:36:05Z

IvarTheBoneless:

{{disambig-more|Fëanorian|[[Fëanorian (disambiguation)]]}}
{{object infobox
| name=Fëanorian lamps
| image = Peter Xavier Price - Gelmir with the Noldorin Lamp.jpg
| caption="Gelmir with the Noldorin Lamp" by [[Peter Xavier Price]]
| pronun=
| othernames=
| location=[[Valinor]], later [[Middle-earth]]
| owner=[[Noldor]]
| type=Object
| appearance=Blue flame in a white crystal
| creator=[[Fëanor]] (inventor)
| created=
| createdlocation=
| destroyer=
| destroyed=
| destroyedlocation=
| notablefor=
}}
{{quote|...they were made of old in [[Valinor]], and neither wind nor water could quench them, and when they were unhooded they sent forth a clear blue light from a flame imprisoned in white crystal.|''[[Unfinished Tales]]'', [[Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin]]}}

'''Fëanorian lamps''' were lamps which emitted a blue light from a flame from within a white crystal. They are described as "crystals hung in a fine chain net, the crystals being ever shining with an inner blue radiance". The lamps were created in [[Valinor]] and the flame could not be extinguished by wind or water. The [[Noldor]] were famous for the flames, but unfortunately the craft was lost with them. [[Gelmir (messenger of Círdan)|Gelmir]] possessed one of these lamps when he met [[Tuor]].<ref>{{UT|Tuor}}</ref>

Some of the Noldor who had been captured by [[Morgoth]] and put to work in his mines had Fëanorian lamps with them. [[Gwindor]] was one of these enslaved Elves, and when he escaped he took with him one of these lamps.<ref name="CH9">{{CH|9}}</ref>

In the [[Third Age]], the [[Galadhrim|Elves of Lothlórien]] used similar devices: small lamps that gave out slender silver beams.<ref>{{FR|Lorien}}</ref>

==Other versions of the legendarium==
The lamps were part of the [[legendarium]] from very early stages, but [[Christopher Tolkien]] did not mention them in the published ''[[Silmarillion]]''. For example, in one version of the story, [[Túrin Turambar]] recognised the face of [[Beleg]] whom he had slain by the light of Gwindor's lamp;<ref>{{UT|Tuor}}, p. 51, note 2</ref> yet in the version included in the ''Silmarillion'', it was lightning which revealed Beleg's face to Túrin.<ref name="CH9"/>

A detailed description of the nature of the lamps is described in the early ''[[Lay of the Children of Húrin]]'', when Beleg finds Gwindor in the forest of [[Taur-nu-Fuin (Dorthonion)|Taur-nu-Fuin]] after seeing his lamp shining in the distance:

{{blockquote|But little lanterns   of lucent crystal 
and silver cold   with subtlest cunning 
they strangely fashioned,   and steadfast a flame 
burnt unblinking   there blue and pale, 
unquenched for ever.   The craft that lit them 
was the jewel-makers'   most jealous secret. 
Not Morgoth's might,   nor meed nor torment 
them vowed, availed   to reveal that lore; 
yet lights and lamps   of living radiance, 
many and magical,   they made for him. 
No dark could dim them   the deeps wandering; 
whose lode they lit   was lost seldom 
in groundless grot,   or gulfs far under.|''[[The Lay of the Children of Húrin]]'', II. Beleg, vv. 787-799}}

This scene of Beleg finding Gwindor with one of these lamps was painted by [[J.R.R. Tolkien]] and published in ''[[Pictures by J.R.R. Tolkien]]'' (1979), [[:File:J.R.R. Tolkien - Fangorn Forest.jpg|no. 37]].

{{references}}
[[Category:Objects]]
[[de: Feanorische Lampen]]

Fëanorian lamps

2026-01-02T10:34:35Z

IvarTheBoneless:

{{disambig-more|Fëanorian|[[Fëanorian (disambiguation)]]}}
{{object infobox
| name=Fëanorean lamps
| image = Peter Xavier Price - Gelmir with the Noldorin Lamp.jpg
| caption="Gelmir with the Noldorin Lamp" by [[Peter Xavier Price]]
| pronun=
| othernames=
| location=[[Valinor]], later [[Middle-earth]]
| owner=[[Noldor]]
| type=Object
| appearance=Blue flame in a white crystal
| creator=[[Fëanor]] (inventor)
| created=
| createdlocation=
| destroyer=
| destroyed=
| destroyedlocation=
| notablefor=
}}
{{quote|...they were made of old in [[Valinor]], and neither wind nor water could quench them, and when they were unhooded they sent forth a clear blue light from a flame imprisoned in white crystal.|''[[Unfinished Tales]]'', [[Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin]]}}

'''Fëanorian lamps''' were lamps which emitted a blue light from a flame from within a white crystal. They are described as "crystals hung in a fine chain net, the crystals being ever shining with an inner blue radiance". The lamps were created in [[Valinor]] and the flame could not be extinguished by wind or water. The [[Noldor]] were famous for the flames, but unfortunately the craft was lost with them. [[Gelmir (messenger of Círdan)|Gelmir]] possessed one of these lamps when he met [[Tuor]].<ref>{{UT|Tuor}}</ref>

Some of the Noldor who had been captured by [[Morgoth]] and put to work in his mines had Fëanorian lamps with them. [[Gwindor]] was one of these enslaved Elves, and when he escaped he took with him one of these lamps.<ref name="CH9">{{CH|9}}</ref>

In the [[Third Age]], the [[Galadhrim|Elves of Lothlórien]] used similar devices: small lamps that gave out slender silver beams.<ref>{{FR|Lorien}}</ref>

==Other versions of the legendarium==
The lamps were part of the [[legendarium]] from very early stages, but [[Christopher Tolkien]] did not mention them in the published ''[[Silmarillion]]''. For example, in one version of the story, [[Túrin Turambar]] recognised the face of [[Beleg]] whom he had slain by the light of Gwindor's lamp;<ref>{{UT|Tuor}}, p. 51, note 2</ref> yet in the version included in the ''Silmarillion'', it was lightning which revealed Beleg's face to Túrin.<ref name="CH9"/>

A detailed description of the nature of the lamps is described in the early ''[[Lay of the Children of Húrin]]'', when Beleg finds Gwindor in the forest of [[Taur-nu-Fuin (Dorthonion)|Taur-nu-Fuin]] after seeing his lamp shining in the distance:

{{blockquote|But little lanterns   of lucent crystal 
and silver cold   with subtlest cunning 
they strangely fashioned,   and steadfast a flame 
burnt unblinking   there blue and pale, 
unquenched for ever.   The craft that lit them 
was the jewel-makers'   most jealous secret. 
Not Morgoth's might,   nor meed nor torment 
them vowed, availed   to reveal that lore; 
yet lights and lamps   of living radiance, 
many and magical,   they made for him. 
No dark could dim them   the deeps wandering; 
whose lode they lit   was lost seldom 
in groundless grot,   or gulfs far under.|''[[The Lay of the Children of Húrin]]'', II. Beleg, vv. 787-799}}

This scene of Beleg finding Gwindor with one of these lamps was painted by [[J.R.R. Tolkien]] and published in ''[[Pictures by J.R.R. Tolkien]]'' (1979), [[:File:J.R.R. Tolkien - Fangorn Forest.jpg|no. 37]].

{{references}}
[[Category:Objects]]
[[de: Feanorische Lampen]]

Category:Images of Fëanorian lamps

2026-01-02T10:32:42Z

IvarTheBoneless: Created page with "{{Main|Fëanorian lamps}} {{DEFAULTSORT:Feanorian lamps}} Category:Images of objects"

{{Main|Fëanorian lamps}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:Feanorian lamps}}

[[Category:Images of objects]]

File:Peter Xavier Price - Gelmir with the Noldorin Lamp.jpg

2026-01-02T10:30:03Z

IvarTheBoneless: ==Licensing== {{Copyright-permission|Peter Xavier Price|[http://peet.deviantart.com/ peet.deviantart.com]|Peter Xavier Price}} Category:Images by Peter Xavier Price Category:Images of Fëanorian lamps Category:Images of Gelmir (messenger of Círdan)

== Summary ==
==Licensing==
{{Copyright-permission|[[Peter Xavier Price]]|[http://peet.deviantart.com/ peet.deviantart.com]|Peter Xavier Price}}

[[Category:Images by Peter Xavier Price]]

[[Category:Images of Fëanorian lamps]]
[[Category:Images of Gelmir (messenger of Círdan)]]

File:David Greset - Tarostar Romendacil - conqueror of the east.jpg

2026-01-02T10:25:13Z

IvarTheBoneless: ==Licensing== {{Copyright-permission|David Greset|[https://www.artstation.com/gresetdavid David Greset on ArtStation]}} Category:Images by David Greset Category:Images of Rómendacil I

== Summary ==
==Licensing==
{{Copyright-permission|David Greset|[https://www.artstation.com/gresetdavid David Greset on ArtStation]}}

[[Category:Images by David Greset]]

[[Category:Images of Rómendacil I]]

File:David Greset - Tuor in Vinyamar wearing Turgon's armour.jpg

2026-01-02T10:23:34Z

Talk:Later Ages

2025-12-27T12:44:44Z

IvarTheBoneless:

=="futuristic" map==

Geophysics and Geology Professor Peter Bird of UCLA has created a map that is like a mix of Middle-earth and modern Europe. An article about his attempt can be seen [https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/121-where-on-earth-was-middle-earth/ here], but the links pointing at his original site aren't working. I think it would be a nice addition to this article, but licensing it would be problematic? [[User:Sage|Sage]] ([[User talk:Sage|talk]]) 07:56, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

:A bit of reverse image searching has located the domain http://peterbird.name and the image is linked at the bottom of the page!
:http://peterbird.name/pictures/Middle-Earth.jpg
:His contact details are available on this page, but given that it is a pubic domain and we are a not-for-profit it should fall under fair use.
:PS. I think it is a very interesting image and certainly worthwhile of inclusion.[[User:JR Snow|JR Snow]] ([[User talk:JR Snow|talk]]) 15:30, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
::Where does it say they are pubic domain? [[User:Sage|Sage]] ([[User talk:Sage|talk]]) 09:12, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
:::The top of the page says ''"You are welcome to download many of my finite-element and graphical programs, and to use any figures, maps, or images that you might find useful in teaching or research presentations."'', so to me it is clear he is happy for the images to be shared in a teaching environment, which as a not-for-profit Wiki we surely includes TG?
:::
:::I am not suggesting you should not contact him to ask, but I don't imagine given the above quote he would object. [[User:JR Snow|JR Snow]] ([[User talk:JR Snow|talk]]) 16:59, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

==Year calculation pedantry==
After a convo on the Discord in which much arithmetic was done on JRRT's "16k year" statement, I think the correct calculated BC years for the ends of the 1A, 2A, and 3A in the NOME paradigm are as follows:

1) Benchmark: YS 310 was 16,000 years ago in 1960 AD.

2) YS 310 was 14,040 years ago in 1 BC (there is no 0 BC). Therefore YS 310 = 14,041 BC.

3) In this scheme, the YS/Bel. period is 600 years long, not 590; therefore YS 600 = 13,751 BC.

4) Therefore SA 3441 = 10,310 BC and TA 3021 = 7,289 BC.

Hostetter came up with 7,288 at this last step because he was calculating "years before;" 7,288 years before 1 BC is 7,289 BC.
--[[Special:Contributions/Mord|Mord]] 03:22, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

==Out-of-universe?==
To Sage's inquiries about this article being written from an out-of-universe POV - how would you do it from an in-universe POV, given the fact that the entire article is based upon 4 different, separate conceptions of ME history (or rather its future)? [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 13:23, 24 December 2025 (UTC)

:I think it can't be written as a perfectly satisfying article, but we can try. A large portion of the article does not concern the Ages themselves but are about the temporal distance to the present era. I don't say that it should be removed, just to be kept under a section, and include some IU POV as well as the "main" text.
:We can consider any information about the future of the Elves, Dwarves etc, some prophecies, in the narrative, the Appendices, HoME, Aelfwine, perhaps showing a preference to sources contemporary to or later than LOTR. We can include some of Tolkien's opinions (if any, from Letters or essays) just not quoted directly to keep the IU illusion (according to the MoS). Perhaps can we consider Notion Club sources too? [[User:Sage|Sage]] ([[User talk:Sage|talk]]) 14:42, 24 December 2025 (UTC)
::I agree, but I think that of we do, we should consider moving this page to [[Seventh Age]] and disregarding the other later Ages as Tolkien literally never wrote anything set in the Fifth Age and the Sixth Age.[[User:Dour1234|Dour1234]] ([[User talk:Dour1234|talk]]) 16:05, 24 December 2025 (UTC)
:::I think the article now as it is, mostly concerns the "Seventh Age" and its length already, rather than anything else. And yea, perhaps adding info about Aelfwine etc would balance it even farther forward. But I still think we should try to conform the article more to the MoS. One first step would be to replace "Tolkien says this about Eldarion in HoMe..." to a prose IU text. [[User:Sage|Sage]] ([[User talk:Sage|talk]]) 09:03, 26 December 2025 (UTC)
::::I agree. Also, adding things from [[The Notion Club Papers]]'s Foreword would be good.[[User:Dour1234|Dour1234]] ([[User talk:Dour1234|talk]]) 09:30, 26 December 2025 (UTC)
::::Perhaps that text about Eldarion could be interpreted as the [[Reunited Kingdom]] only enduring for "a hundred generations of [[Men]] after" the end of Eldarion's reign and that "a new age" (the [[Fifth Age]]) began when the Reunited Kingdom no longer endured, thereby breaking up into "many realms” ruled by the descendants of Eldarion?[[User:Dour1234|Dour1234]] ([[User talk:Dour1234|talk]]) 00:00, 27 December 2025 (UTC)
:::::I suppose there's an argument to be made to create articles for the 'Fifth Age' (after 'hundred generations') and for the 'Sixth Age' (after that and before Eru's incarnation). Not to mention the Seventh Age. [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 12:43, 27 December 2025 (UTC)
::There are only 4 main sources for Ages beyond the Fourth Age, and 3 of them are already included.
::Trying to turn this into a 'normal' article is a disaster. And unless there's some new information regarding Fifth and Sixth Ages - there won't be any new developments either. And there won't be. [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 12:23, 26 December 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Later Ages

2025-12-27T12:43:35Z

IvarTheBoneless: /* Out-of-universe? */ Reply

=="futuristic" map==

Geophysics and Geology Professor Peter Bird of UCLA has created a map that is like a mix of Middle-earth and modern Europe. An article about his attempt can be seen [https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/121-where-on-earth-was-middle-earth/ here], but the links pointing at his original site aren't working. I think it would be a nice addition to this article, but licensing it would be problematic? [[User:Sage|Sage]] ([[User talk:Sage|talk]]) 07:56, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

:A bit of reverse image searching has located the domain http://peterbird.name and the image is linked at the bottom of the page!
:http://peterbird.name/pictures/Middle-Earth.jpg
:His contact details are available on this page, but given that it is a pubic domain and we are a not-for-profit it should fall under fair use.
:PS. I think it is a very interesting image and certainly worthwhile of inclusion.[[User:JR Snow|JR Snow]] ([[User talk:JR Snow|talk]]) 15:30, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
::Where does it say they are pubic domain? [[User:Sage|Sage]] ([[User talk:Sage|talk]]) 09:12, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
:::The top of the page says ''"You are welcome to download many of my finite-element and graphical programs, and to use any figures, maps, or images that you might find useful in teaching or research presentations."'', so to me it is clear he is happy for the images to be shared in a teaching environment, which as a not-for-profit Wiki we surely includes TG?
:::
:::I am not suggesting you should not contact him to ask, but I don't imagine given the above quote he would object. [[User:JR Snow|JR Snow]] ([[User talk:JR Snow|talk]]) 16:59, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

==Year calculation pedantry==
After a convo on the Discord in which much arithmetic was done on JRRT's "16k year" statement, I think the correct calculated BC years for the ends of the 1A, 2A, and 3A in the NOME paradigm are as follows:

1) Benchmark: YS 310 was 16,000 years ago in 1960 AD.

2) YS 310 was 14,040 years ago in 1 BC (there is no 0 BC). Therefore YS 310 = 14,041 BC.

3) In this scheme, the YS/Bel. period is 600 years long, not 590; therefore YS 600 = 13,751 BC.

4) Therefore SA 3441 = 10,310 BC and TA 3021 = 7,289 BC.

Hostetter came up with 7,288 at this last step because he was calculating "years before;" 7,288 years before 1 BC is 7,289 BC.
--[[Special:Contributions/Mord|Mord]] 03:22, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

==Out-of-universe?==
To Sage's inquiries about this article being written from an out-of-universe POV - how would you do it from an in-universe POV, given the fact that the entire article is based upon 4 different, separate conceptions of ME history (or rather its future)? [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 13:23, 24 December 2025 (UTC)

:I think it can't be written as a perfectly satisfying article, but we can try. A large portion of the article does not concern the Ages themselves but are about the temporal distance to the present era. I don't say that it should be removed, just to be kept under a section, and include some IU POV as well as the "main" text.
:We can consider any information about the future of the Elves, Dwarves etc, some prophecies, in the narrative, the Appendices, HoME, Aelfwine, perhaps showing a preference to sources contemporary to or later than LOTR. We can include some of Tolkien's opinions (if any, from Letters or essays) just not quoted directly to keep the IU illusion (according to the MoS). Perhaps can we consider Notion Club sources too? [[User:Sage|Sage]] ([[User talk:Sage|talk]]) 14:42, 24 December 2025 (UTC)
::I agree, but I think that of we do, we should consider moving this page to [[Seventh Age]] and disregarding the other later Ages as Tolkien literally never wrote anything set in the Fifth Age and the Sixth Age.[[User:Dour1234|Dour1234]] ([[User talk:Dour1234|talk]]) 16:05, 24 December 2025 (UTC)
:::I think the article now as it is, mostly concerns the "Seventh Age" and its length already, rather than anything else. And yea, perhaps adding info about Aelfwine etc would balance it even farther forward. But I still think we should try to conform the article more to the MoS. One first step would be to replace "Tolkien says this about Eldarion in HoMe..." to a prose IU text. [[User:Sage|Sage]] ([[User talk:Sage|talk]]) 09:03, 26 December 2025 (UTC)
::::I agree. Also, adding things from [[The Notion Club Papers]]'s Foreword would be good.[[User:Dour1234|Dour1234]] ([[User talk:Dour1234|talk]]) 09:30, 26 December 2025 (UTC)
::::Perhaps that text about Eldarion could be interpreted as the [[Reunited Kingdom]] only enduring for "a hundred generations of [[Men]] after" the end of Eldarion's reign and that "a new age" (the [[Fifth Age]]) began when the Reunited Kingdom no longer endured, thereby breaking up into "many realms” ruled by the descendants of Eldarion?[[User:Dour1234|Dour1234]] ([[User talk:Dour1234|talk]]) 00:00, 27 December 2025 (UTC)
:::::I suppose there's an argument to be made to create articles for the 'Fifth Age' (after 'hundred generations') and for the 'Sixth Age' (after that and before Eru's incarnation). [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 12:43, 27 December 2025 (UTC)
::There are only 4 main sources for Ages beyond the Fourth Age, and 3 of them are already included.
::Trying to turn this into a 'normal' article is a disaster. And unless there's some new information regarding Fifth and Sixth Ages - there won't be any new developments either. And there won't be. [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 12:23, 26 December 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Later Ages

2025-12-27T12:38:57Z

IvarTheBoneless:

=="futuristic" map==

Geophysics and Geology Professor Peter Bird of UCLA has created a map that is like a mix of Middle-earth and modern Europe. An article about his attempt can be seen [https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/121-where-on-earth-was-middle-earth/ here], but the links pointing at his original site aren't working. I think it would be a nice addition to this article, but licensing it would be problematic? [[User:Sage|Sage]] ([[User talk:Sage|talk]]) 07:56, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

:A bit of reverse image searching has located the domain http://peterbird.name and the image is linked at the bottom of the page!
:http://peterbird.name/pictures/Middle-Earth.jpg
:His contact details are available on this page, but given that it is a pubic domain and we are a not-for-profit it should fall under fair use.
:PS. I think it is a very interesting image and certainly worthwhile of inclusion.[[User:JR Snow|JR Snow]] ([[User talk:JR Snow|talk]]) 15:30, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
::Where does it say they are pubic domain? [[User:Sage|Sage]] ([[User talk:Sage|talk]]) 09:12, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
:::The top of the page says ''"You are welcome to download many of my finite-element and graphical programs, and to use any figures, maps, or images that you might find useful in teaching or research presentations."'', so to me it is clear he is happy for the images to be shared in a teaching environment, which as a not-for-profit Wiki we surely includes TG?
:::
:::I am not suggesting you should not contact him to ask, but I don't imagine given the above quote he would object. [[User:JR Snow|JR Snow]] ([[User talk:JR Snow|talk]]) 16:59, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

==Year calculation pedantry==
After a convo on the Discord in which much arithmetic was done on JRRT's "16k year" statement, I think the correct calculated BC years for the ends of the 1A, 2A, and 3A in the NOME paradigm are as follows:

1) Benchmark: YS 310 was 16,000 years ago in 1960 AD.

2) YS 310 was 14,040 years ago in 1 BC (there is no 0 BC). Therefore YS 310 = 14,041 BC.

3) In this scheme, the YS/Bel. period is 600 years long, not 590; therefore YS 600 = 13,751 BC.

4) Therefore SA 3441 = 10,310 BC and TA 3021 = 7,289 BC.

Hostetter came up with 7,288 at this last step because he was calculating "years before;" 7,288 years before 1 BC is 7,289 BC.
--[[Special:Contributions/Mord|Mord]] 03:22, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

==Out-of-universe?==
To Sage's inquiries about this article being written from an out-of-universe POV - how would you do it from an in-universe POV, given the fact that the entire article is based upon 4 different, separate conceptions of ME history (or rather its future)? [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 13:23, 24 December 2025 (UTC)

:I think it can't be written as a perfectly satisfying article, but we can try. A large portion of the article does not concern the Ages themselves but are about the temporal distance to the present era. I don't say that it should be removed, just to be kept under a section, and include some IU POV as well as the "main" text.
:We can consider any information about the future of the Elves, Dwarves etc, some prophecies, in the narrative, the Appendices, HoME, Aelfwine, perhaps showing a preference to sources contemporary to or later than LOTR. We can include some of Tolkien's opinions (if any, from Letters or essays) just not quoted directly to keep the IU illusion (according to the MoS). Perhaps can we consider Notion Club sources too? [[User:Sage|Sage]] ([[User talk:Sage|talk]]) 14:42, 24 December 2025 (UTC)
::I agree, but I think that of we do, we should consider moving this page to [[Seventh Age]] and disregarding the other later Ages as Tolkien literally never wrote anything set in the Fifth Age and the Sixth Age.[[User:Dour1234|Dour1234]] ([[User talk:Dour1234|talk]]) 16:05, 24 December 2025 (UTC)
:::I think the article now as it is, mostly concerns the "Seventh Age" and its length already, rather than anything else. And yea, perhaps adding info about Aelfwine etc would balance it even farther forward. But I still think we should try to conform the article more to the MoS. One first step would be to replace "Tolkien says this about Eldarion in HoMe..." to a prose IU text. [[User:Sage|Sage]] ([[User talk:Sage|talk]]) 09:03, 26 December 2025 (UTC)
::::I agree. Also, adding things from [[The Notion Club Papers]]'s Foreword would be good.[[User:Dour1234|Dour1234]] ([[User talk:Dour1234|talk]]) 09:30, 26 December 2025 (UTC)
::::Perhaps that text about Eldarion could be interpreted as the [[Reunited Kingdom]] only enduring for "a hundred generations of [[Men]] after" the end of Eldarion's reign and that "a new age" (the [[Fifth Age]]) began when the Reunited Kingdom no longer endured, thereby breaking up into "many realms” ruled by the descendants of Eldarion?[[User:Dour1234|Dour1234]] ([[User talk:Dour1234|talk]]) 00:00, 27 December 2025 (UTC)
::There are only 4 main sources for Ages beyond the Fourth Age, and 3 of them are already included.
::Trying to turn this into a 'normal' article is a disaster. And unless there's some new information regarding Fifth and Sixth Ages - there won't be any new developments either. And there won't be. [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 12:23, 26 December 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Almaida

2025-12-27T12:35:14Z

IvarTheBoneless: /* Map? */ Reply

==The Etymology of Almaida==

It could just be a corruption of Quenya [[User:Charles Alexander Thomas|Charles Alexander Thomas]] ([[User talk:Charles Alexander Thomas|talk]]) 15:51, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

==Map?==

Is the "single sketch-map of Númenor" available somewhere? [[User:Smeagol|Smeagol]] ([[User talk:Smeagol|talk]]) 22:43, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

:I'm intrigued as to what you're referring to? [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 09:34, 23 December 2025 (UTC)
::Well, the reference in the article, of course. [[User:Smeagol|Smeagol]] ([[User talk:Smeagol|talk]]) 12:22, 23 December 2025 (UTC)
:::Which one? [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 13:16, 24 December 2025 (UTC)
::::There is only one reference to a "single sketch-map of Númenor". That is the one I want to know more about. [[User:Smeagol|Smeagol]] ([[User talk:Smeagol|talk]]) 14:54, 25 December 2025 (UTC)
:::::'''Specifics'''!? [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 12:16, 26 December 2025 (UTC)
:::::That is, what on earth are you talking about? [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 12:17, 26 December 2025 (UTC)
::::::Are you trolling me? There is a map referenced and I want to know where I can find it. What is your problem with that? [[User:Smeagol|Smeagol]] ([[User talk:Smeagol|talk]]) 18:32, 26 December 2025 (UTC)
:::::::In the section of the Introduction to ''[[Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth]]'' that pertains to "[[A Description of the Island of Númenor]]", [[Christopher Tolkien]] wrote that he had "redrawn the map from a little rapid sketch" and that "the original shows another haven on the Bay of Andúnië, not far to the westward of Andúnië itself; the name is hard to read, but is almost certainly ''Almaida''".[[User:Dour1234|Dour1234]] ([[User talk:Dour1234|talk]]) 23:44, 26 December 2025 (UTC)
::::::::Hi. Is the "little rapid sketch" available somewhere? [[User:Smeagol|Smeagol]] ([[User talk:Smeagol|talk]]) 10:26, 27 December 2025 (UTC)
:::::::Thanks to Dour I understand what you were talking about. You could've done the same but instead you accused me of 'trolling' you, even though I've no idea (since you've not specified) what exact reference I should've been looking for. [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 12:35, 27 December 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Later Ages

2025-12-26T12:27:57Z

IvarTheBoneless: /* Out-of-universe? */ Reply

=="futuristic" map==

Geophysics and Geology Professor Peter Bird of UCLA has created a map that is like a mix of Middle-earth and modern Europe. An article about his attempt can be seen [https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/121-where-on-earth-was-middle-earth/ here], but the links pointing at his original site aren't working. I think it would be a nice addition to this article, but licensing it would be problematic? [[User:Sage|Sage]] ([[User talk:Sage|talk]]) 07:56, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

:A bit of reverse image searching has located the domain http://peterbird.name and the image is linked at the bottom of the page!
:http://peterbird.name/pictures/Middle-Earth.jpg
:His contact details are available on this page, but given that it is a pubic domain and we are a not-for-profit it should fall under fair use.
:PS. I think it is a very interesting image and certainly worthwhile of inclusion.[[User:JR Snow|JR Snow]] ([[User talk:JR Snow|talk]]) 15:30, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
::Where does it say they are pubic domain? [[User:Sage|Sage]] ([[User talk:Sage|talk]]) 09:12, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
:::The top of the page says ''"You are welcome to download many of my finite-element and graphical programs, and to use any figures, maps, or images that you might find useful in teaching or research presentations."'', so to me it is clear he is happy for the images to be shared in a teaching environment, which as a not-for-profit Wiki we surely includes TG?
:::
:::I am not suggesting you should not contact him to ask, but I don't imagine given the above quote he would object. [[User:JR Snow|JR Snow]] ([[User talk:JR Snow|talk]]) 16:59, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

==Year calculation pedantry==
After a convo on the Discord in which much arithmetic was done on JRRT's "16k year" statement, I think the correct calculated BC years for the ends of the 1A, 2A, and 3A in the NOME paradigm are as follows:

1) Benchmark: YS 310 was 16,000 years ago in 1960 AD.

2) YS 310 was 14,040 years ago in 1 BC (there is no 0 BC). Therefore YS 310 = 14,041 BC.

3) In this scheme, the YS/Bel. period is 600 years long, not 590; therefore YS 600 = 13,751 BC.

4) Therefore SA 3441 = 10,310 BC and TA 3021 = 7,289 BC.

Hostetter came up with 7,288 at this last step because he was calculating "years before;" 7,288 years before 1 BC is 7,289 BC.
--[[Special:Contributions/Mord|Mord]] 03:22, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

==Out-of-universe?==
To Sage's inquiries about this article being written from an out-of-universe POV - how would you do it from an in-universe POV, given the fact that the entire article is based upon 4 different, separate conceptions of ME history (or rather its future)? [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 13:23, 24 December 2025 (UTC)

:I think it can't be written as a perfectly satisfying article, but we can try. A large portion of the article does not concern the Ages themselves but are about the temporal distance to the present era. I don't say that it should be removed, just to be kept under a section, and include some IU POV as well as the "main" text.
:We can consider any information about the future of the Elves, Dwarves etc, some prophecies, in the narrative, the Appendices, HoME, Aelfwine, perhaps showing a preference to sources contemporary to or later than LOTR. We can include some of Tolkien's opinions (if any, from Letters or essays) just not quoted directly to keep the IU illusion (according to the MoS). Perhaps can we consider Notion Club sources too? [[User:Sage|Sage]] ([[User talk:Sage|talk]]) 14:42, 24 December 2025 (UTC)
::I agree, but I think that of we do, we should consider moving this page to [[Seventh Age]] and disregarding the other later Ages as Tolkien literally never wrote anything set in the Fifth Age and the Sixth Age.[[User:Dour1234|Dour1234]] ([[User talk:Dour1234|talk]]) 16:05, 24 December 2025 (UTC)
:::I think the article now as it is, mostly concerns the "Seventh Age" and its length already, rather than anything else. And yea, perhaps adding info about Aelfwine etc would balance it even farther forward. But I still think we should try to conform the article more to the MoS. One first step would be to replace "Tolkien says this about Eldarion in HoMe..." to a prose IU text. [[User:Sage|Sage]] ([[User talk:Sage|talk]]) 09:03, 26 December 2025 (UTC)
::::I agree. Also, adding things from [[The Notion Club Papers]]'s Foreword would be good.[[User:Dour1234|Dour1234]] ([[User talk:Dour1234|talk]]) 09:30, 26 December 2025 (UTC)
::There are only 4 main sources for Ages beyond the Fourth Age, and 3 of them are already included.
::Trying to turn this into a 'normal' article is a disaster. And unless there's some new information regarding Fifth and Sixth Ages - there won't be any new developments either. [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 12:23, 26 December 2025 (UTC)
:::And there won't be. [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 12:27, 26 December 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Later Ages

2025-12-26T12:26:55Z

IvarTheBoneless:

=="futuristic" map==

Geophysics and Geology Professor Peter Bird of UCLA has created a map that is like a mix of Middle-earth and modern Europe. An article about his attempt can be seen [https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/121-where-on-earth-was-middle-earth/ here], but the links pointing at his original site aren't working. I think it would be a nice addition to this article, but licensing it would be problematic? [[User:Sage|Sage]] ([[User talk:Sage|talk]]) 07:56, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

:A bit of reverse image searching has located the domain http://peterbird.name and the image is linked at the bottom of the page!
:http://peterbird.name/pictures/Middle-Earth.jpg
:His contact details are available on this page, but given that it is a pubic domain and we are a not-for-profit it should fall under fair use.
:PS. I think it is a very interesting image and certainly worthwhile of inclusion.[[User:JR Snow|JR Snow]] ([[User talk:JR Snow|talk]]) 15:30, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
::Where does it say they are pubic domain? [[User:Sage|Sage]] ([[User talk:Sage|talk]]) 09:12, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
:::The top of the page says ''"You are welcome to download many of my finite-element and graphical programs, and to use any figures, maps, or images that you might find useful in teaching or research presentations."'', so to me it is clear he is happy for the images to be shared in a teaching environment, which as a not-for-profit Wiki we surely includes TG?
:::
:::I am not suggesting you should not contact him to ask, but I don't imagine given the above quote he would object. [[User:JR Snow|JR Snow]] ([[User talk:JR Snow|talk]]) 16:59, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

==Year calculation pedantry==
After a convo on the Discord in which much arithmetic was done on JRRT's "16k year" statement, I think the correct calculated BC years for the ends of the 1A, 2A, and 3A in the NOME paradigm are as follows:

1) Benchmark: YS 310 was 16,000 years ago in 1960 AD.

2) YS 310 was 14,040 years ago in 1 BC (there is no 0 BC). Therefore YS 310 = 14,041 BC.

3) In this scheme, the YS/Bel. period is 600 years long, not 590; therefore YS 600 = 13,751 BC.

4) Therefore SA 3441 = 10,310 BC and TA 3021 = 7,289 BC.

Hostetter came up with 7,288 at this last step because he was calculating "years before;" 7,288 years before 1 BC is 7,289 BC.
--[[Special:Contributions/Mord|Mord]] 03:22, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

==Out-of-universe?==
To Sage's inquiries about this article being written from an out-of-universe POV - how would you do it from an in-universe POV, given the fact that the entire article is based upon 4 different, separate conceptions of ME history (or rather its future)? [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 13:23, 24 December 2025 (UTC)

:I think it can't be written as a perfectly satisfying article, but we can try. A large portion of the article does not concern the Ages themselves but are about the temporal distance to the present era. I don't say that it should be removed, just to be kept under a section, and include some IU POV as well as the "main" text.
:We can consider any information about the future of the Elves, Dwarves etc, some prophecies, in the narrative, the Appendices, HoME, Aelfwine, perhaps showing a preference to sources contemporary to or later than LOTR. We can include some of Tolkien's opinions (if any, from Letters or essays) just not quoted directly to keep the IU illusion (according to the MoS). Perhaps can we consider Notion Club sources too? [[User:Sage|Sage]] ([[User talk:Sage|talk]]) 14:42, 24 December 2025 (UTC)
::I agree, but I think that of we do, we should consider moving this page to [[Seventh Age]] and disregarding the other later Ages as Tolkien literally never wrote anything set in the Fifth Age and the Sixth Age.[[User:Dour1234|Dour1234]] ([[User talk:Dour1234|talk]]) 16:05, 24 December 2025 (UTC)
:::I think the article now as it is, mostly concerns the "Seventh Age" and its length already, rather than anything else. And yea, perhaps adding info about Aelfwine etc would balance it even farther forward. But I still think we should try to conform the article more to the MoS. One first step would be to replace "Tolkien says this about Eldarion in HoMe..." to a prose IU text. [[User:Sage|Sage]] ([[User talk:Sage|talk]]) 09:03, 26 December 2025 (UTC)
::::I agree. Also, adding things from [[The Notion Club Papers]]'s Foreword would be good.[[User:Dour1234|Dour1234]] ([[User talk:Dour1234|talk]]) 09:30, 26 December 2025 (UTC)
::There are only 4 main sources for Ages beyond the Fourth Age, and 3 of them are already included.
::Trying to turn this into a 'normal' article is a disaster. And unless there's some new information regarding Fifth and Sixth Ages - there won't be any new developments either. [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 12:23, 26 December 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Later Ages

2025-12-26T12:25:16Z

IvarTheBoneless:

=="futuristic" map==

Geophysics and Geology Professor Peter Bird of UCLA has created a map that is like a mix of Middle-earth and modern Europe. An article about his attempt can be seen [https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/121-where-on-earth-was-middle-earth/ here], but the links pointing at his original site aren't working. I think it would be a nice addition to this article, but licensing it would be problematic? [[User:Sage|Sage]] ([[User talk:Sage|talk]]) 07:56, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

:A bit of reverse image searching has located the domain http://peterbird.name and the image is linked at the bottom of the page!
:http://peterbird.name/pictures/Middle-Earth.jpg
:His contact details are available on this page, but given that it is a pubic domain and we are a not-for-profit it should fall under fair use.
:PS. I think it is a very interesting image and certainly worthwhile of inclusion.[[User:JR Snow|JR Snow]] ([[User talk:JR Snow|talk]]) 15:30, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
::Where does it say they are pubic domain? [[User:Sage|Sage]] ([[User talk:Sage|talk]]) 09:12, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
:::The top of the page says ''"You are welcome to download many of my finite-element and graphical programs, and to use any figures, maps, or images that you might find useful in teaching or research presentations."'', so to me it is clear he is happy for the images to be shared in a teaching environment, which as a not-for-profit Wiki we surely includes TG?
:::
:::I am not suggesting you should not contact him to ask, but I don't imagine given the above quote he would object. [[User:JR Snow|JR Snow]] ([[User talk:JR Snow|talk]]) 16:59, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

==Year calculation pedantry==
After a convo on the Discord in which much arithmetic was done on JRRT's "16k year" statement, I think the correct calculated BC years for the ends of the 1A, 2A, and 3A in the NOME paradigm are as follows:

1) Benchmark: YS 310 was 16,000 years ago in 1960 AD.

2) YS 310 was 14,040 years ago in 1 BC (there is no 0 BC). Therefore YS 310 = 14,041 BC.

3) In this scheme, the YS/Bel. period is 600 years long, not 590; therefore YS 600 = 13,751 BC.

4) Therefore SA 3441 = 10,310 BC and TA 3021 = 7,289 BC.

Hostetter came up with 7,288 at this last step because he was calculating "years before;" 7,288 years before 1 BC is 7,289 BC.
--[[Special:Contributions/Mord|Mord]] 03:22, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

==Out-of-universe?==
To Sage's inquiries about this article being written from an out-of-universe POV - how would you do it from an in-universe POV, given the fact that the entire article is based upon 4 different, separate conceptions of ME history (or rather its future)? [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 13:23, 24 December 2025 (UTC)

:I think it can't be written as a perfectly satisfying article, but we can try. A large portion of the article does not concern the Ages themselves but are about the temporal distance to the present era. I don't say that it should be removed, just to be kept under a section, and include some IU POV as well as the "main" text.
:We can consider any information about the future of the Elves, Dwarves etc, some prophecies, in the narrative, the Appendices, HoME, Aelfwine, perhaps showing a preference to sources contemporary to or later than LOTR. We can include some of Tolkien's opinions (if any, from Letters or essays) just not quoted directly to keep the IU illusion (according to the MoS). Perhaps can we consider Notion Club sources too? [[User:Sage|Sage]] ([[User talk:Sage|talk]]) 14:42, 24 December 2025 (UTC)
::I agree, but I think that of we do, we should consider moving this page to [[Seventh Age]] and disregarding the other later Ages as Tolkien literally never wrote anything set in the Fifth Age and the Sixth Age.[[User:Dour1234|Dour1234]] ([[User talk:Dour1234|talk]]) 16:05, 24 December 2025 (UTC)
:::I think the article now as it is, mostly concerns the "Seventh Age" and its length already, rather than anything else. And yea, perhaps adding info about Aelfwine etc would balance it even farther forward. But I still think we should try to conform the article more to the MoS. One first step would be to replace "Tolkien says this about Eldarion in HoMe..." to a prose IU text. [[User:Sage|Sage]] ([[User talk:Sage|talk]]) 09:03, 26 December 2025 (UTC)
::::I agree. Also, adding things from [[The Notion Club Papers]]'s Foreword would be good.[[User:Dour1234|Dour1234]] ([[User talk:Dour1234|talk]]) 09:30, 26 December 2025 (UTC)
::There are only 4 main sources for Ages beyond the Fourth Age, and 3 of them are already included.
::Trying to turn this into a 'normal' article is a disaster. And unless there's some new information regarding Fifth and Sixth Ages - there won't be any new information either. [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 12:23, 26 December 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Later Ages

2025-12-26T12:23:10Z

IvarTheBoneless: /* Out-of-universe? */ Reply

=="futuristic" map==

Geophysics and Geology Professor Peter Bird of UCLA has created a map that is like a mix of Middle-earth and modern Europe. An article about his attempt can be seen [https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/121-where-on-earth-was-middle-earth/ here], but the links pointing at his original site aren't working. I think it would be a nice addition to this article, but licensing it would be problematic? [[User:Sage|Sage]] ([[User talk:Sage|talk]]) 07:56, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

:A bit of reverse image searching has located the domain http://peterbird.name and the image is linked at the bottom of the page!
:http://peterbird.name/pictures/Middle-Earth.jpg
:His contact details are available on this page, but given that it is a pubic domain and we are a not-for-profit it should fall under fair use.
:PS. I think it is a very interesting image and certainly worthwhile of inclusion.[[User:JR Snow|JR Snow]] ([[User talk:JR Snow|talk]]) 15:30, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
::Where does it say they are pubic domain? [[User:Sage|Sage]] ([[User talk:Sage|talk]]) 09:12, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
:::The top of the page says ''"You are welcome to download many of my finite-element and graphical programs, and to use any figures, maps, or images that you might find useful in teaching or research presentations."'', so to me it is clear he is happy for the images to be shared in a teaching environment, which as a not-for-profit Wiki we surely includes TG?
:::
:::I am not suggesting you should not contact him to ask, but I don't imagine given the above quote he would object. [[User:JR Snow|JR Snow]] ([[User talk:JR Snow|talk]]) 16:59, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

==Year calculation pedantry==
After a convo on the Discord in which much arithmetic was done on JRRT's "16k year" statement, I think the correct calculated BC years for the ends of the 1A, 2A, and 3A in the NOME paradigm are as follows:

1) Benchmark: YS 310 was 16,000 years ago in 1960 AD.

2) YS 310 was 14,040 years ago in 1 BC (there is no 0 BC). Therefore YS 310 = 14,041 BC.

3) In this scheme, the YS/Bel. period is 600 years long, not 590; therefore YS 600 = 13,751 BC.

4) Therefore SA 3441 = 10,310 BC and TA 3021 = 7,289 BC.

Hostetter came up with 7,288 at this last step because he was calculating "years before;" 7,288 years before 1 BC is 7,289 BC.
--[[Special:Contributions/Mord|Mord]] 03:22, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

==Out-of-universe?==
To Sage's inquiries about this article being written from an out-of-universe POV - how would you do it from an in-universe POV, given the fact that the entire article is based upon 4 different, separate conceptions of ME history (or rather its future)? [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 13:23, 24 December 2025 (UTC)

:I think it can't be written as a perfectly satisfying article, but we can try. A large portion of the article does not concern the Ages themselves but are about the temporal distance to the present era. I don't say that it should be removed, just to be kept under a section, and include some IU POV as well as the "main" text.
:We can consider any information about the future of the Elves, Dwarves etc, some prophecies, in the narrative, the Appendices, HoME, Aelfwine, perhaps showing a preference to sources contemporary to or later than LOTR. We can include some of Tolkien's opinions (if any, from Letters or essays) just not quoted directly to keep the IU illusion (according to the MoS). Perhaps can we consider Notion Club sources too? [[User:Sage|Sage]] ([[User talk:Sage|talk]]) 14:42, 24 December 2025 (UTC)
::I agree, but I think that of we do, we should consider moving this page to [[Seventh Age]] and disregarding the other later Ages as Tolkien literally never wrote anything set in the Fifth Age and the Sixth Age.[[User:Dour1234|Dour1234]] ([[User talk:Dour1234|talk]]) 16:05, 24 December 2025 (UTC)
:::I think the article now as it is, mostly concerns the "Seventh Age" and its length already, rather than anything else. And yea, perhaps adding info about Aelfwine etc would balance it even farther forward. But I still think we should try to conform the article more to the MoS. One first step would be to replace "Tolkien says this about Eldarion in HoMe..." to a prose IU text. [[User:Sage|Sage]] ([[User talk:Sage|talk]]) 09:03, 26 December 2025 (UTC)
::::I agree. Also, adding things from [[The Notion Club Papers]]'s Foreword would be good.[[User:Dour1234|Dour1234]] ([[User talk:Dour1234|talk]]) 09:30, 26 December 2025 (UTC)
::There are only 4 sources for Ages beyond the Fourth Age, and 3 of them are already included.
::Trying to turn this into a 'normal' article is a disaster. And unless there's some new information regarding Fifth and Sixth Ages - there won't be any new information either. [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 12:23, 26 December 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Almaida

2025-12-26T12:17:39Z

IvarTheBoneless: /* Map? */ Reply

Talk:Almaida

2025-12-26T12:16:46Z

IvarTheBoneless: /* Map? */ Reply

Talk:Later Ages

2025-12-24T13:24:29Z

IvarTheBoneless: /* Out-of-universe? */

Talk:Later Ages

2025-12-24T13:23:17Z

IvarTheBoneless: /* Out-of-universe? */ new section

Talk:Almaida

2025-12-24T13:16:57Z

IvarTheBoneless: /* Map? */ Reply

Later Ages

2025-12-23T10:56:34Z

IvarTheBoneless:

{{unnamed}}
{{expansion}}
{{History of Arda}}
This article concerns the '''later Ages''', defined for the purposes of this article as the [[Ages]] that took place after the ending of the [[Fourth Age]].

According to one of the drafts of the ''[[Appendices]]'', it is said of the Fourth Age:

{{blockquote|Of [[Eldarion]] son of [[Aragorn|Elessar]] it was foretold that he should rule a great [[Reunited Kingdom|realm]], and '''that it should endure for a hundred generations of [[Men]] after him, that is until a new age brought in again new things'''; and from him should come the kings of many realms in long days after.|''[[The Peoples of Middle-earth]]'', "[[The Tale of Years of the Third Age]]"<ref>{{PM|Third}}, pp. 244-5</ref>}}

==Development==
===Letter to Rhona Beare (1958)===
In the ''[[Letter 211]]'' that [[Tolkien]] wrote on [[14 October]] [[1958]] to [[Rhona Beare]], he writes that the time gap between the fall of [[Barad-dûr]] (in {{TA|3019}}) and the present-day (as in 1958, at the time that Tolkien wrote the said letter) was c. 6,000 years.

Therefore, Tolkien concluded that in 1958, the world was nearer to the end of the '''Fifth Age''', if the subsequent Ages were of the same length as the [[Second Age|Second]] and the [[Third Age|Third]] Ages.

However, he ultimately concluded that the Ages have "quickened", and that the world was now (in 1958, that is) at the end of its '''Sixth Age''', or maybe even in the Seventh.<ref>{{L|211}}, ''footnote'', p. 283</ref>

===''The Awaking of the Quendi'' (1960)===
[[File:Peter Bird - Middle-earth.jpg|thumb|Composite geophysical map of Middle-earth and modern Europe by Peter Bird.]]
In a [[1960]] text called ''[[The Awaking of the Quendi]]'', Tolkien explicitly calls the year 1960 AD (the year in which he was writing the text) as the year 1960 of the '''Seventh Age'''.

In that text Tolkien connects the beginning of the Seventh Age (i.e. {{SeA|1}}) with the [[Old Hope|incarnation]] of [[Ilúvatar]] (that is, the birth of [[wikipedia:Jesus|Jesus Christ]] in [[wikipedia:AD 1|1 AD]] according to the real-world ''[[wikipedia:Anno Domini|Anno Domini]]'' reckoning of the [[Christianity|Catholic Church]]).<ref group="note">The previous year Tolkien wrote ''[[Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth]]'' introducing the concept of Eru entering His own creation.</ref>

Tolkien also goes on to say that the time-gap between the year 1960 of the Seventh Age (i.e. 1960 AD) and the [[Years of the Sun|Year of the Sun]] {{FA|310|n}} of the [[First Age]]<ref group="note">{{FA|310}} was the year in which the first [[Men]], the [[Edain]], entered [[Beleriand]].</ref> was 16,000 years.<ref>{{NM|P1vi}}, p. 39</ref>

This makes it possible to calculate when some of the in-universe Ages happened in relation to the real-world chronology:

#The end of the First Age ({{FA|590}}) corresponds to the year [[wikipedia:Timeline of prehistory#Upper Paleolithic|13,760 BC]]
#The end of the Second Age ({{SA|3441}}) corresponds to the year [[wikipedia:Timeline of prehistory#Upper Paleolithic|10,319 BC]]
#The end of the Third Age ({{TA|3021}}) corresponds to the year [[wikipedia:8th millennium BC|7,298 BC]]

Therefore, the average duration of the Fourth through Sixth Ages would be c. 2,430 years<ref>{{NM|P1vi}}, ''Notes'', Note 30, p. 43</ref> justifying his previous letter to Beare that the Ages must have quickened. On the other hand, while the letter suggested that the Third Age ended in around 4,000 BC, this calculation pushes it further back.

=== 1964 BBC interview ===
In [[November 26]] [[1964]] Tolkien was interviewed by [[BBC]], and during the more informal part of the interview with [[Denys Gueroult]]<ref>''[[The J.R.R. Tolkien Companion and Guide]]: Chronology'', p. 625</ref> he offhandedly mentioned that the events of ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' happened around 7-8,000 years before present (1964 at the time):

{{blockquote|The moons, I think, finally the moons and the suns have worked out according to what they were in this part of the world in 1942 actually. They must have something where they... I mean one... I couldn’t... I’m not good enough mathematician or astronomer to work out where they might have been '''seven thousand, eight thousand years ago'''. But as long as they correspond to some real configuration I thought it was good enough. Moons are much more tricky to deal with than suns of course, but in the whole, I don’t think the moon is full or rises in the wrong place...|''[[1964 BBC Interview]]'', ''24:42 to 25:05 video mark''<ref>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSRMpNrctRQ J R R Tolkien 1964 interview]</ref>}}

==Other versions of the legendarium==
{{stub}}
Later in his life, Tolkien wrote about the possibility that during the [[Changing of the World]], the [[Valar]] and the [[Calaquendi]] left the world spiritually, while the landmass of [[Aman]] remained, and became the Americas.<ref>{{NM|P3xv}}</ref> (See: [[New lands]])

==Inspiration==
{{stub}}
==Portrayal in adaptations==
'''[[2000]]: ''[[Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia]]'':'''
[[David Day]] displays some chronological evolution of [[Arda]], from the "Age of the Lamps" to the Third Age, while in the later Ages the illustrations show how Middle-earth changed geologically to resemble modern Europe, while and a continent resembling the Americas forming west of [[Belegaer]].
{{references|notes}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:Later Ages}}

[[Category:Ages|5]]
[[Category:Later Ages| ]]

Later Ages

2025-12-23T10:54:17Z

IvarTheBoneless:

{{unnamed}}
{{expansion}}
{{History of Arda}}
This article concerns the '''later Ages''', defined for the purposes of this article as the [[Ages]] that took place after the ending of the [[Fourth Age]].

According to one of the drafts of the ''[[Appendices]]'', it is said of the Fourth Age:

{{blockquote|Of [[Eldarion]] son of [[Aragorn|Elessar]] it was foretold that he should rule a great [[Reunited Kingdom|realm]], and '''that it should endure for a hundred generations of [[Men]] after him, that is until a new age brought in again new things'''; and from him should come the kings of many realms in long days after.|''[[The Peoples of Middle-earth]]'', "[[The Tale of Years of the Third Age]]"<ref>{{PM|Third}}, pp. 244-5</ref>}}

==Development==
===Letter to Rhona Beare (1958)===
In the ''[[Letter 211]]'' that [[Tolkien]] wrote on [[14 October]] [[1958]] to [[Rhona Beare]], he writes that the time gap between the fall of [[Barad-dûr]] (in {{TA|3019}}) and the present-day (as in 1958, at the time that Tolkien wrote the said letter) was c. 6,000 years.

Therefore, Tolkien concluded that in 1958, the world was nearer to the end of the '''Fifth Age''', if the subsequent Ages were of the same length as the [[Second Age|Second]] and the [[Third Age|Third]] Ages.

However, he ultimately concluded that the Ages have "quickened", and that the world was now (in 1958, that is) at the end of its '''Sixth Age''', or maybe even in the Seventh.<ref>{{L|211}}, ''footnote'', p. 283</ref>

===''The Awaking of the Quendi'' (1960)===
[[File:Peter Bird - Middle-earth.jpg|thumb|Composite geophysical map of Middle-earth and modern Europe by Peter Bird.]]
In a [[1960]] text called ''[[The Awaking of the Quendi]]'', Tolkien explicitly calls the year 1960 AD (the year in which he was writing the text) as the year 1960 of the '''Seventh Age'''.

In that text Tolkien connects the beginning of the Seventh Age (i.e. {{SeA|1}}) with the [[Old Hope|incarnation]] of [[Ilúvatar]] (that is, the birth of [[wikipedia:Jesus|Jesus Christ]] in [[wikipedia:AD 1|1 AD]] according to the real-world ''[[wikipedia:Anno Domini|Anno Domini]]'' reckoning of the [[Christianity|Catholic Church]]).<ref group="note">The previous year Tolkien wrote ''[[Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth]]'' introducing the concept of Eru entering His own creation.</ref>

Tolkien also goes on to say that the time-gap between the year 1960 of the Seventh Age (i.e. 1960 AD) and the [[Years of the Sun|Year of the Sun]] {{FA|310|n}} of the [[First Age]]<ref group="note">{{FA|310}} was the year in which the first [[Men]], the [[Edain]], entered [[Beleriand]].</ref> was 16,000 years.<ref>{{NM|P1vi}}, p. 39</ref>

This makes it possible to calculate when some of the in-universe Ages happened in relation to the real-world chronology:

#The end of the First Age ({{FA|590}}) corresponds to the year [[wikipedia:Timeline of prehistory#Upper Paleolithic|13,760 BC]]
#The end of the Second Age ({{SA|3441}}) corresponds to the year [[wikipedia:Timeline of prehistory#Upper Paleolithic|10,319 BC]]
#The end of the Third Age ({{TA|3021}}) corresponds to the year [[wikipedia:8th millennium BC|7,298 BC]]

Therefore, the average duration of the Fourth through Sixth Ages would be c. 2,430 years<ref>{{NM|P1vi}}, ''Notes'', Note 30, p. 43</ref> justifying his previous letter to Beare that the Ages must have quickened. On the other hand, while the letter suggested that the Third Age ended in around 4,000 BC, this calculation pushes it further back.

=== 1964 BBC interview ===
In [[November 26]] [[1964]] Tolkien was interviewed by [[BBC]], and during the more informal part of the interview with [[Denys Gueroult]]<ref>''[[The J.R.R. Tolkien Companion and Guide]]: Chronology'', p. 625</ref> he offhandedly mentioned that the events of ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' happened around 7-8,000 years before present (1964 at the time):

{{blockquote|The moons, I think, finally the moons and the suns have worked out according to what they were in this part of the world in 1942 actually. They must have something where they... I mean one... I couldn’t... I’m not good enough mathematician or astronomer to work out where they might have been '''seven thousand, eight thousand years ago'''. But as long as they correspond to some real configuration I thought it was good enough. Moons are much more tricky to deal with than suns of course, but in the whole, I don’t think the moon is full or rises in the wrong place...|''[[1964 BBC Interview]]'', 24:42 ''to 25:05 video mark''<ref>[https://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSRMpNrctRQ J R R Tolkien 1964 interview]</ref>}}

==Other versions of the legendarium==
{{stub}}
Later in his life, Tolkien wrote about the possibility that during the [[Changing of the World]], the [[Valar]] and the [[Calaquendi]] left the world spiritually, while the landmass of [[Aman]] remained, and became the Americas.<ref>{{NM|P3xv}}</ref> (See: [[New lands]])

==Inspiration==
{{stub}}
==Portrayal in adaptations==
'''[[2000]]: ''[[Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia]]'':'''
[[David Day]] displays some chronological evolution of [[Arda]], from the "Age of the Lamps" to the Third Age, while in the later Ages the illustrations show how Middle-earth changed geologically to resemble modern Europe, while and a continent resembling the Americas forming west of [[Belegaer]].
{{references|notes}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:Later Ages}}

[[Category:Ages|5]]
[[Category:Later Ages| ]]

Later Ages

2025-12-23T10:53:02Z

IvarTheBoneless:

{{unnamed}}
{{expansion}}
{{History of Arda}}
This article concerns the '''later Ages''', defined for the purposes of this article as the [[Ages]] that took place after the ending of the [[Fourth Age]].

According to one of the drafts of the ''[[Appendices]]'', it is said of the Fourth Age:

{{blockquote|Of [[Eldarion]] son of [[Aragorn|Elessar]] it was foretold that he should rule a great [[Reunited Kingdom|realm]], and '''that it should endure for a hundred generations of [[Men]] after him, that is until a new age brought in again new things'''; and from him should come the kings of many realms in long days after.|''[[The Peoples of Middle-earth]]'', "[[The Tale of Years of the Third Age]]"<ref>{{PM|Third}}, pp. 244-5</ref>}}

==Development==
===Letter to Rhona Beare (1958)===
In the ''[[Letter 211]]'' that [[Tolkien]] wrote on [[14 October]] [[1958]] to [[Rhona Beare]], he writes that the time gap between the fall of [[Barad-dûr]] (in {{TA|3019}}) and the present-day (as in 1958, at the time that Tolkien wrote the said letter) was c. 6,000 years.

Therefore, Tolkien concluded that in 1958, the world was nearer to the end of the '''Fifth Age''', if the subsequent Ages were of the same length as the [[Second Age|Second]] and the [[Third Age|Third]] Ages.

However, he ultimately concluded that the Ages have "quickened", and that the world was now (in 1958, that is) at the end of its '''Sixth Age''', or maybe even in the Seventh.<ref>{{L|211}}, ''footnote'', p. 283</ref>

===''The Awaking of the Quendi'' (1960)===
[[File:Peter Bird - Middle-earth.jpg|thumb|Composite geophysical map of Middle-earth and modern Europe by Peter Bird.]]
In a [[1960]] text called ''[[The Awaking of the Quendi]]'', Tolkien explicitly calls the year 1960 AD (the year in which he was writing the text) as the year 1960 of the '''Seventh Age'''.

In that text Tolkien connects the beginning of the Seventh Age (i.e. {{SeA|1}}) with the [[Old Hope|incarnation]] of [[Ilúvatar]] (that is, the birth of [[wikipedia:Jesus|Jesus Christ]] in [[wikipedia:AD 1|1 AD]] according to the real-world ''[[wikipedia:Anno Domini|Anno Domini]]'' reckoning of the [[Christianity|Catholic Church]]).<ref group="note">The previous year Tolkien wrote ''[[Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth]]'' introducing the concept of Eru entering His own creation.</ref>

Tolkien also goes on to say that the time-gap between the year 1960 of the Seventh Age (i.e. 1960 AD) and the [[Years of the Sun|Year of the Sun]] {{FA|310|n}} of the [[First Age]]<ref group="note">{{FA|310}} was the year in which the first [[Men]], the [[Edain]], entered [[Beleriand]].</ref> was 16,000 years.<ref>{{NM|P1vi}}, p. 39</ref>

This makes it possible to calculate when some of the in-universe Ages happened in relation to the real-world chronology:

#The end of the First Age ({{FA|590}}) corresponds to the year [[wikipedia:Timeline of prehistory#Upper Paleolithic|13,760 BC]]
#The end of the Second Age ({{SA|3441}}) corresponds to the year [[wikipedia:Timeline of prehistory#Upper Paleolithic|10,319 BC]]
#The end of the Third Age ({{TA|3021}}) corresponds to the year [[wikipedia:8th millennium BC|7,298 BC]]

Therefore, the average duration of the Fourth through Sixth Ages would be c. 2,430 years<ref>{{NM|P1vi}}, ''Notes'', Note 30, p. 43</ref> justifying his previous letter to Beare that the Ages must have quickened. On the other hand, while the letter suggested that the Third Age ended in around 4,000 BC, this calculation pushes it further back.

=== 1964 BBC interview ===
In [[November 26]] [[1964]] Tolkien was interviewed by [[BBC]], and during the more informal part of the interview with [[Denys Gueroult]]<ref>''[[The J.R.R. Tolkien Companion and Guide]]: Chronology'', p. 625</ref> he offhandedly mentioned that the events of ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' happened around 7-8,000 years before present (1964 at the time):

{{blockquote|The moons, I think, finally the moons and the suns have worked out according to what they were in this part of the world in 1942 actually. They must have something where they... I mean one... I couldn’t... I’m not good enough mathematician or astronomer to work out where they might have been '''seven thousand, eight thousand years ago'''. But as long as they correspond to some real configuration I thought it was good enough. Moons are much more tricky to deal with than suns of course, but in the whole, I don’t think the moon is full or rises in the wrong place...|''[[1964 BBC Interview]]'', 24:42 to 25:05<ref>[https://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSRMpNrctRQ J R R Tolkien 1964 interview]</ref>}}

==Other versions of the legendarium==
{{stub}}
Later in his life, Tolkien wrote about the possibility that during the [[Changing of the World]], the [[Valar]] and the [[Calaquendi]] left the world spiritually, while the landmass of [[Aman]] remained, and became the Americas.<ref>{{NM|P3xv}}</ref> (See: [[New lands]])

==Inspiration==
{{stub}}
==Portrayal in adaptations==
'''[[2000]]: ''[[Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia]]'':'''
[[David Day]] displays some chronological evolution of [[Arda]], from the "Age of the Lamps" to the Third Age, while in the later Ages the illustrations show how Middle-earth changed geologically to resemble modern Europe, while and a continent resembling the Americas forming west of [[Belegaer]].
{{references|notes}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:Later Ages}}

[[Category:Ages|5]]
[[Category:Later Ages| ]]

Later Ages

2025-12-23T10:34:17Z

IvarTheBoneless: it should be youtu.be/eSRMpNrctRQ?t=1482 , unfortunately TG spam filter is dumb and doesn't let me add the actual, proper link to the interview itself: so now it's your problem

{{unnamed}}
{{expansion}}
{{History of Arda}}
This article concerns the '''later Ages''', defined for the purposes of this article as the [[Ages]] that took place after the ending of the [[Fourth Age]].

According to one of the drafts of the ''[[Appendices]]'', it is said of the Fourth Age:

{{blockquote|Of [[Eldarion]] son of [[Aragorn|Elessar]] it was foretold that he should rule a great [[Reunited Kingdom|realm]], and '''that it should endure for a hundred generations of [[Men]] after him, that is until a new age brought in again new things'''; and from him should come the kings of many realms in long days after.|''[[The Peoples of Middle-earth]]'', "[[The Tale of Years of the Third Age]]"<ref>{{PM|Third}}, pp. 244-5</ref>}}

==Development==
===Letter to Rhona Beare (1958)===
In the ''[[Letter 211]]'' that [[Tolkien]] wrote on [[14 October]] [[1958]] to [[Rhona Beare]], he writes that the time gap between the fall of [[Barad-dûr]] (in {{TA|3019}}) and the present-day (as in 1958, at the time that Tolkien wrote the said letter) was c. 6,000 years.

Therefore, Tolkien concluded that in 1958, the world was nearer to the end of the '''Fifth Age''', if the subsequent Ages were of the same length as the [[Second Age|Second]] and the [[Third Age|Third]] Ages.

However, he ultimately concluded that the Ages have "quickened", and that the world was now (in 1958, that is) at the end of its '''Sixth Age''', or maybe even in the Seventh.<ref>{{L|211}}, ''footnote'', p. 283</ref>

===''The Awaking of the Quendi'' (1960)===
[[File:Peter Bird - Middle-earth.jpg|thumb|Composite geophysical map of Middle-earth and modern Europe by Peter Bird.]]
In a [[1960]] text called ''[[The Awaking of the Quendi]]'', Tolkien explicitly calls the year 1960 AD (the year in which he was writing the text) as the year 1960 of the '''Seventh Age'''.

In that text Tolkien connects the beginning of the Seventh Age (i.e. {{SeA|1}}) with the [[Old Hope|incarnation]] of [[Ilúvatar]] (that is, the birth of [[wikipedia:Jesus|Jesus Christ]] in [[wikipedia:AD 1|1 AD]] according to the real-world ''[[wikipedia:Anno Domini|Anno Domini]]'' reckoning of the [[Christianity|Catholic Church]]).<ref group="note">The previous year Tolkien wrote ''[[Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth]]'' introducing the concept of Eru entering His own creation.</ref>

Tolkien also goes on to say that the time-gap between the year 1960 of the Seventh Age (i.e. 1960 AD) and the [[Years of the Sun|Year of the Sun]] {{FA|310|n}} of the [[First Age]]<ref group="note">{{FA|310}} was the year in which the first [[Men]], the [[Edain]], entered [[Beleriand]].</ref> was 16,000 years.<ref>{{NM|P1vi}}, p. 39</ref>

This makes it possible to calculate when some of the in-universe Ages happened in relation to the real-world chronology:

#The end of the First Age ({{FA|590}}) corresponds to the year [[wikipedia:Timeline of prehistory#Upper Paleolithic|13,760 BC]]
#The end of the Second Age ({{SA|3441}}) corresponds to the year [[wikipedia:Timeline of prehistory#Upper Paleolithic|10,319 BC]]
#The end of the Third Age ({{TA|3021}}) corresponds to the year [[wikipedia:8th millennium BC|7,298 BC]]

Therefore, the average duration of the Fourth through Sixth Ages would be c. 2,430 years<ref>{{NM|P1vi}}, ''Notes'', Note 30, p. 43</ref> justifying his previous letter to Beare that the Ages must have quickened. On the other hand, while the letter suggested that the Third Age ended in around 4,000 BC, this calculation pushes it further back.

=== 1964 BBC interview ===
In [[November 26]] [[1964]] Tolkien was interviewed by [[BBC]], and during the more informal part of the interview with [[Denys Gueroult]]<ref>''[[The J.R.R. Tolkien Companion and Guide]]: Chronology'', p. 625</ref> he offhandedly mentioned that the events of ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' happened around 7-8,000 years before present (1964 at the time):

{{blockquote|The moons, I think, finally the moons and the suns have worked out according to what they were in this part of the world in 1942 actually. They must have something where they... I mean one... I couldn’t... I’m not good enough mathematician or astronomer to work out where they might have been '''seven thousand, eight thousand years ago'''. But as long as they correspond to some real configuration I thought it was good enough. Moons are much more tricky to deal with than suns of course, but in the whole, I don’t think the moon is full or rises in the wrong place...|''[[1964 BBC Interview]]'', 24:42 to 25:05<ref>[https://youtube.com/eSRMpNrctRQ?t=1482 J R R Tolkien 1964 interview]</ref>}}

==Other versions of the legendarium==
{{stub}}
Later in his life, Tolkien wrote about the possibility that during the [[Changing of the World]], the [[Valar]] and the [[Calaquendi]] left the world spiritually, while the landmass of [[Aman]] remained, and became the Americas.<ref>{{NM|P3xv}}</ref> (See: [[New lands]])

==Inspiration==
{{stub}}
==Portrayal in adaptations==
'''[[2000]]: ''[[Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia]]'':'''
[[David Day]] displays some chronological evolution of [[Arda]], from the "Age of the Lamps" to the Third Age, while in the later Ages the illustrations show how Middle-earth changed geologically to resemble modern Europe, while and a continent resembling the Americas forming west of [[Belegaer]].
{{references|notes}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:Later Ages}}

[[Category:Ages|5]]
[[Category:Later Ages| ]]

Later Ages

2025-12-23T10:25:43Z

IvarTheBoneless:

{{unnamed}}
{{expansion}}
{{History of Arda}}
This article concerns the '''later Ages''', defined for the purposes of this article as the [[Ages]] that took place after the ending of the [[Fourth Age]].

According to one of the drafts of the ''[[Appendices]]'', it is said of the Fourth Age:

{{blockquote|Of [[Eldarion]] son of [[Aragorn|Elessar]] it was foretold that he should rule a great [[Reunited Kingdom|realm]], and '''that it should endure for a hundred generations of [[Men]] after him, that is until a new age brought in again new things'''; and from him should come the kings of many realms in long days after.|''[[The Peoples of Middle-earth]]'', "[[The Tale of Years of the Third Age]]"<ref>{{PM|Third}}, pp. 244-5</ref>}}

==Development==
===Letter to Rhona Beare (1958)===
In the ''[[Letter 211]]'' that [[Tolkien]] wrote on [[14 October]] [[1958]] to [[Rhona Beare]], he writes that the time gap between the fall of [[Barad-dûr]] (in {{TA|3019}}) and the present-day (as in 1958, at the time that Tolkien wrote the said letter) was c. 6,000 years.

Therefore, Tolkien concluded that in 1958, the world was nearer to the end of the '''Fifth Age''', if the subsequent Ages were of the same length as the [[Second Age|Second]] and the [[Third Age|Third]] Ages.

However, he ultimately concluded that the Ages have "quickened", and that the world was now (in 1958, that is) at the end of its '''Sixth Age''', or maybe even in the Seventh.<ref>{{L|211}}, ''footnote'', p. 283</ref>

===''The Awaking of the Quendi'' (1960)===
[[File:Peter Bird - Middle-earth.jpg|thumb|Composite geophysical map of Middle-earth and modern Europe by Peter Bird.]]
In a [[1960]] text called ''[[The Awaking of the Quendi]]'', Tolkien explicitly calls the year 1960 AD (the year in which he was writing the text) as the year 1960 of the '''Seventh Age'''.

In that text Tolkien connects the beginning of the Seventh Age (i.e. {{SeA|1}}) with the [[Old Hope|incarnation]] of [[Ilúvatar]] (that is, the birth of [[wikipedia:Jesus|Jesus Christ]] in [[wikipedia:AD 1|1 AD]] according to the real-world ''[[wikipedia:Anno Domini|Anno Domini]]'' reckoning of the [[Christianity|Catholic Church]]).<ref group="note">The previous year Tolkien wrote ''[[Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth]]'' introducing the concept of Eru entering His own creation.</ref>

Tolkien also goes on to say that the time-gap between the year 1960 of the Seventh Age (i.e. 1960 AD) and the [[Years of the Sun|Year of the Sun]] {{FA|310|n}} of the [[First Age]]<ref group="note">{{FA|310}} was the year in which the first [[Men]], the [[Edain]], entered [[Beleriand]].</ref> was 16,000 years.<ref>{{NM|P1vi}}, p. 39</ref>

This makes it possible to calculate when some of the in-universe Ages happened in relation to the real-world chronology:

#The end of the First Age ({{FA|590}}) corresponds to the year [[wikipedia:Timeline of prehistory#Upper Paleolithic|13,760 BC]]
#The end of the Second Age ({{SA|3441}}) corresponds to the year [[wikipedia:Timeline of prehistory#Upper Paleolithic|10,319 BC]]
#The end of the Third Age ({{TA|3021}}) corresponds to the year [[wikipedia:8th millennium BC|7,298 BC]]

Therefore, the average duration of the Fourth through Sixth Ages would be c. 2,430 years<ref>{{NM|P1vi}}, ''Notes'', Note 30, p. 43</ref> justifying his previous letter to Beare that the Ages must have quickened. On the other hand, while the letter suggested that the Third Age ended in around 4,000 BC, this calculation pushes it further back.

=== 1964 BBC interview ===
In [[November 26]] [[1964]] Tolkien was interviewed by [[BBC]], and during the more informal part of the interview with [[Denys Gueroult]]<ref>''[[The J.R.R. Tolkien Companion and Guide]]: Chronology'', p. 625.</ref> he offhandedly mentioned that the events of ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]'' happened around 7-8,000 years before present (1964 at the time):

{{blockquote|The moons, I think, finally the moons and the suns have worked out according to what they were in this part of the world in 1942 actually. They must have something where they... I mean one... I couldn’t... I’m not good enough mathematician or astronomer to work out where they might have been '''seven thousand, eight thousand years ago'''. But as long as they correspond to some real configuration I thought it was good enough. Moons are much more tricky to deal with than suns of course, but in the whole, I don’t think the moon is full or rises in the wrong place...|''[[1964 BBC Interview]]'', 24:42 to 25:05<ref>[https://youtube.com/eSRMpNrctRQ?t=1482 J R R Tolkien 1964 interview]</ref>}}

==Other versions of the legendarium==
{{stub}}
Later in his life, Tolkien wrote about the possibility that during the [[Changing of the World]], the [[Valar]] and the [[Calaquendi]] left the world spiritually, while the landmass of [[Aman]] remained, and became the Americas.<ref>{{NM|P3xv}}</ref> (See: [[New lands]])

==Inspiration==
{{stub}}
==Portrayal in adaptations==
'''[[2000]]: ''[[Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia]]'':'''
[[David Day]] displays some chronological evolution of [[Arda]], from the "Age of the Lamps" to the Third Age, while in the later Ages the illustrations show how Middle-earth changed geologically to resemble modern Europe, while and a continent resembling the Americas forming west of [[Belegaer]].
{{references|notes}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:Later Ages}}

[[Category:Ages|5]]
[[Category:Later Ages| ]]

Talk:Almaida

2025-12-23T09:34:23Z

IvarTheBoneless: /* Map? */ Reply

User talk:Shantismurf

2025-10-22T13:43:37Z

IvarTheBoneless:

== Recent edits ==

Nevermind, you do have a discord account, but still - please refrain from making any such changes in the future without consulting other editors, since they involve a lot of tedious work of reverting them back as they were before. - [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 13:32, 22 October 2025 (UTC)

User talk:Shantismurf

2025-10-22T13:43:02Z

IvarTheBoneless:

== Recent edits ==

Nevermind, but still - please refrain from making any such changes in the future without consulting other editors, since they involve a lot of tedious work of reverting them back as they were before. - [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 13:32, 22 October 2025 (UTC)

Ecthelion

2025-10-22T13:40:03Z

IvarTheBoneless: Undo revision 425723 by Ercan Yılın (talk)

{{short description|Slayer of Gothmog}}
{{disambig-more|Ecthelion|[[Ecthelion (disambiguation)]]}}
{{infobox character
| people=[[Noldor|Noldo]]
| name=Ecthelion
| image=Anna Lee - Ecthelion.jpg
| caption="Ecthelion" by [[Anna Lee]]
| pronun=
| othernames=
| titles=Lord of the Fountains
| position=[[Warden of the Great Gate]]
| location=[[Anfauglith]], [[Fen of Serech]], [[Gate of Steel]], [[Tumladen]], and [[Gondolin]]
| affiliation=[[Gondolindrim]]
| language=[[Quenya]], [[Sindarin]]
| birth=
| birthlocation=
| rule=
| death={{FA|510}}
| deathlocation=[[Square of the Palace|Place of the Fountain]], [[Gondolin]]
| age=
| notablefor=Slaying [[Gothmog (balrog)|Gothmog]]
| house=[[House of the Fountain]]
| parentage=
| siblings=
| spouse=
| children=
| gender=Male
| height=
| hair=
| eyes=
| clothing=Silver-spiked helmet, silver garb
| weapons=Sword
| steed=
}}
<center>{{quote|And high and noble as was Elemmakil, greater and more lordly was Ecthelion, Lord of the Fountains, at that time Warden of the Great Gate. All in silver was he clad, and upon his shining helm there was set a spike of steel pointed with a diamond; and as his esquire took his shield it shimmered as if it were bedewed with drops of rain, that were indeed a thousand studs of crystal.|''[[Unfinished Tales]]'', "[[Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin]]"}}</center>

'''Ecthelion''' was an [[Elves|Elf]]-lord of [[Gondolin]], leader of the [[People of the Fountain]] and slayer of [[Gothmog (balrog)|Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs]]. He was also at one point the [[Warden of the Great Gate]] of [[Gondolin]]. Ecthelion had the most beautiful voice and greatest musical talent with the flute of all the people of Gondolin.

==History==
[[File:Turner Mohan - Glorfindel and Ecthelion.jpg|thumb|left|''Glorfindel and Ecthelion'' by [[:Category:Images by Turner Mohan|Turner Mohan]]]]
In the year {{FA|472}}, Ecthelion fought alongside [[Turgon]] in the battle [[Nirnaeth Arnoediad]], leading a wing of Gondolin's forces. Upon the defeat of the Noldor, he defended a flank as Turgon retreated.<ref>{{S|20}}</ref> Surviving the disastrous battle, Ecthelion returned towards the Hidden City where he next appeared as Warden of the [[Gate of Steel|Great Gate]].

Twenty-three years after Nirnaeth Arnoediad, [[Tuor]] and [[Voronwë]] traveled towards the Hidden City. After being led by [[Elemmakil]] through the [[Seven Gates of Gondolin|Seven Gates]], Ecthelion appeared before them. He is portrayed as great and lordly, all clad in silver and having a bright glance. Upon his helm there was a spike with a diamond point, and he bore a shield which shimmered as "a thousand studs of crystal". At first denying passage for Tuor, he allows it after the latter shows the arms of [[Vinyamar]] and mentions [[Ulmo]], saying that the Lord of the Fountains should not oppose the Lord of the Waters.<ref>{{UT|1}}, pp. 50-51</ref>

In the year {{FA|510}}, [[Morgoth]] attacked the city. Ecthelion battled there against [[Gothmog (balrog)|Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs]] in the [[Square of the Palace|Place of the Fountain]], where they slew each other.<ref>{{S|Gondolin}}</ref> The battle was well detailed in ''[[The Fall of Gondolin (chapter)|The Fall of Gondolin]]'', and long remembered by the elves.

==Etymology==
{{Pronounce|Ecthelion.mp3|Ardamir}}
With the development of the [[Elvish]] languages, the name ''Ecthelion'' had its own evolution.

The early [[Gnomish]] conception meant "Lord of the Fountains",<ref>{{PE|11}}, p. 31</ref> from ''ecthel'' ("issue of water, spring").<ref>{{LT2|Appendix}}, entry "Ecthelion"</ref> Its [[Qenya]] cognate was '''''Ektelion'''''.<ref>{{PE|13}}, p. 104</ref>

In the [[Noldorin]] stage of the name, it is composed from ''[[ehtë]]'' ("spear") and ''[[thela]]'' ("point" of spear).<ref>{{LR|Etymologies}}, entries "EK-", "STELEG-"</ref> Put together they could be translated as "Spear-point" or "Spear-head".

The [[Sindarin]] version should have been '''''Ægthelion''''', derived from ''[[aeg]]'' ("sharp") + ''[[Estel|thel]]'' ("intent, resolve") + ''[[-on]]'' (masculine suffix). However, Tolkien wrote that the early ''Ecthelion'' sounded good and it had already been used in publication (with the name of two [[Ecthelion (disambiguation)|ruling stewards]] in ''[[The Lord of the Rings]]''), so he let it as a late colloquial form of the archaic Sindarin name ''Ægthelion''<ref name="Maeglin" />{{rp|318–9}}, which can be translated as "One with Sharp Will".<ref>{{HM|GS}}, p. 339</ref>

==Other versions of the legendarium==
===The Book of Lost Tales===
The most detailed text about Ecthelion and his deeds during the Fall of Gondolin is the chapter "[[The Fall of Gondolin (chapter)|The Fall of Gondolin]]", in ''[[The Book of Lost Tales]]''. There it is told that he is the lord of the [[house of the Fountain]], one of the [[twelve houses of the Gondothlim]]. Its people found delight in diamonds and the silver of their arrays was most beautiful to the sight.<ref name="Gondolin">{{LT2|III}}</ref>{{rp|173}}
[[File:Mysilvergreen - Death of Ecthelion, Lord of the Fountain.jpg|thumb|right|''Death of Ecthelion, Lord of the Fountain'' by [[:Category:Images by Mysilvergreen|Mysilvergreen]]]]
During the siege of the city, Ecthelion led his folk into battle accompanied by the music of their flutes, and great were the damages caused to the enemy by their long, bright swords.<ref name="Gondolin" />{{rp|173}} He and his forces made their entrance from the South part of the city, after previously being held in reserve. So terrible was his voice when commanding the drawing of the swords and the killings which followed, that his name became a terror among the enemy and a war-cry to the [[Eldar]]. Valiantly fighting side by side with Tuor and his [[house of the Wing]], they drove away the [[orcs]] until the gate was almost regained. It is said that Ecthelion and his house of the Fountain slew more orcs than had ever been slain, in all the battles of elves and orcs combined. Ecthelion killed three [[Balrogs]] and his sword did "hurt to their fire". However, [[dragons]] reinforced [[Melko]]'s army. Outnumbered, they had to retreat. When doing so, Ecthelion's left arm was wounded and his shield fell to earth. Tuor carried him away as they joined the remaining leaders in the [[Square of the King]].<ref name="Gondolin" />{{rp|180–2}}

In that place the great [[Square of the Palace|Fountain of the King]] stood and Ecthelion regained his strength by drinking from it. As seven dragons lead the enemy's forces towards the Square, the remaining army of Gondolin began retreat. All but Ecthelion, who remained near the fountain in a stand which was remembered as the most valiant "in all the songs or in any tale". There Gothmog lord of Balrogs beated down [[Egalmoth]], but Ecthelion came inbetween despite being pale as steel. During the duel, Ecthelion was wounded in the hand and lost his sword. Gothmog then was about to deliver a blow with his whip when Ecthelion jumped and drove the spike of his helmet into Gothmog's body. Twining his legs with the enemy's, both fell into the Fountain of the King. Gothmog died there with Ecthelion, sank because of his steel armor.<ref name="Gondolin" />{{rp|183–4}}

Later, during the escape of the [[Exiles of Gondolin]], the young [[Eärendel]] asked about him, saying that he wished Ecthelion were there, "''to play to me on his flute, or make me willow whistles! Perchance has he gone on ahead?''" After he was informed of Ecthelion's death he "wept bitterly" and said that he cared no more to see the streets of Gondolin.<ref name="Gondolin" />{{rp|191}}

===Aredhel's escort===
While composing the chapter about [[Maeglin]], [[Tolkien]] considered Ecthelion, [[Glorfindel]] and [[Egalmoth]] as the escort of Aredhel when she left the [[Gondolin|Hidden City]] to visit [[Fingon]].<ref name="Maeglin" />{{rp|318}} However, in the published ''[[Silmarillion]]'', [[Christopher Tolkien]] did not mention any of the escorts of Aredhel, based on a note in which Tolkien decided that it was necessary ''not'' to name the most eminent and bravest chieftains as Aredhel's escort, as they would have sought for her beyond the [[Iant Iaur]].<ref name="Maeglin">{{WJ|Maeglin}}</ref>{{rp|328}}

===A note from ''[[The Nature of Middle-earth]]''===
In a very late note dated c. 1972-3, Tolkien seemed to imply that Ecthelion and [[Egalmoth]] were of royal lineage, since some [[Steward of Gondor|Ruling Stewards]] of [[Gondor]] were named after "''renowned heroes in the '''royal lines of old'''''".<ref>{{NM|P2v}}, footnote, p. 189</ref>

{{references}}

{{gondolin}}

{{HousesofGondolin}}

[[Category:Battle cries]]
[[Category:Calaquendi]]
[[Category:Characters in The Book of Lost Tales]]
[[Category:Characters in The Silmarillion]]
[[Category:Gnomish names]]
[[Category:Gondolindrim]]
[[Category:First Age characters]]
[[Category:Noldor]]
[[Category:Noldorin names]]
[[Category:Sindarin names]]

[[de:Ecthelion (Hauptmann von Gondolin)]]
[[fr:encyclo:personnages:elfes:noldor:ecthelion]]
[[fi:Ecthelion (Gondolin)]]

Category talk:Dwarven names

2025-10-22T13:38:57Z

IvarTheBoneless: /* Really necessary? */ Reply

==Really necessary?==

I don’t think this category page is necessary since [[:Category:Norse names]] already exists. Maybe this could be a subcategory of that category, but maybe this page should be deleted. What does everyone think?[[User:Dour1234|Dour1234]] ([[User talk:Dour1234|talk]]) 02:54, 22 October 2025 (UTC)

:Totally agree - made a similar comment a moment ago. [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 13:38, 22 October 2025 (UTC)

User talk:Shantismurf

2025-10-22T13:37:38Z

IvarTheBoneless:

== Recent edits ==

Do you have a discord account? If not, you should make one - go to 'Chat' on your left and follow from there.

But to copy from my discord comment:

1) we already have a category called [[:Category:Khuzdul words]] - we don't need a more specific one since Khuzdul terms are extremely sparse compared to Quenya or Sindarin, and there's no point in creating another category

and

2) even if you ''did'' create a new category for Dwarven names it should be [[:Category:Dwarven names]], not [[:Category: Dwarven Names]] - that is, the second word should not be capitalized, and moreover there shouldn't be any space between "Category:" and "Dwarven". [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 13:29, 22 October 2025 (UTC)

Please refrain from making any such changes in the future without consulting other editors, since they involve a lot of tedious work of reverting them back as they were before. - [[User:IvarTheBoneless|IvarTheBoneless]] ([[User talk:IvarTheBoneless|talk]]) 13:32, 22 October 2025 (UTC)