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Talk:Finwë

2024-07-28T19:44:34Z

Ptolemaios: /* earlier name */

Hello, why does the article say that ''Noldóran'' is a [[Sindarin]] word? Both ''Noldo'' and ''aran'' are [[Quenya]] words (''aran'' is also a Sindarin word of the same meaning). Compare etymology section at [[Noldor]]. It would be really strange for the Noldor of [[Aman]] to title their king in an unknown for them language of the [[Sindar]] of [[Beleriand]]. [[The Shibboleth of Fëanor]] doesn't say that the title has been given after his death by the Noldor of Beleriand or later, so I assume ''Noldóran'' is Quenya. [[User:Sirielle|Sirielle]] 22:24, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

:Thanks for your comments, Sirielle. I've made some changes to the Finwë article (hopefully for the better!).--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 11:47, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

== king ==
would he have become king upon setting foot in aman? then the start of his official rule as King of the Noldor would have been from yt 1133 right?
--[[User:Yeyeye|Yeyeye]] 01:54, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
:Logically yes, but that doesn't mean we should extrapolate on that. Perhaps he was considered a King already in the Great March, like Elwe. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 14:48, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
::Ok thanks. Cuz in the Silmarillion, finwe ingwe and olwe arent referred to as kings until they reach aman and elwe isnt considered a king until he established doriath. they were called chieftains and lords before.--[[User:Yeyeye|Yeyeye]] 01:15, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
:::Actually the Silmarillion says that when Elwe disappeared, Olwe took the "kingship" of the Teleri. This indicates that Elwe was already a king, and possibly the other two also. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 12:57, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
:::Alright so what dates should i put for all 4 of the kings for the start of their rule?--[[User:Yeyeye|Yeyeye]] 23:35, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

== 4 elven ambassadors ? ==

In the wiki :The three elven ambassadors were Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë, who would later become kings of the three factions into which the elven race was split.[4]

....but might be 4 ambassadors because Olwe is missing. The teleri were a big faction with 2 Kings. {{unsigned|162.158.91.253}}

:Olwe was not one of the Three Ambassadors (the capitalized term is canon). --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 07:26, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

== earlier name ==

In the article it is stated, that Finwe was called Finwe Noleme in the Lost Tales. This is wrong. He was called Noleme Fingolma (I, 238ff.). He is the father of Turgon. His relationship to Feanor and Orodreth (II, 82) is not clear. In the 'sketch' finally we have Finn and his three sons: Feanor, Fingolfin (father of Turgon) and Finrod (father of Orodreth) (IV, 15). [[User:Ptolemaios|Ptolemaios]] ([[User talk:Ptolemaios|talk]]) 19:42, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Finwë

2024-07-28T19:42:13Z

Ptolemaios: /* earlier name */ new section

Hello, why does the article say that ''Noldóran'' is a [[Sindarin]] word? Both ''Noldo'' and ''aran'' are [[Quenya]] words (''aran'' is also a Sindarin word of the same meaning). Compare etymology section at [[Noldor]]. It would be really strange for the Noldor of [[Aman]] to title their king in an unknown for them language of the [[Sindar]] of [[Beleriand]]. [[The Shibboleth of Fëanor]] doesn't say that the title has been given after his death by the Noldor of Beleriand or later, so I assume ''Noldóran'' is Quenya. [[User:Sirielle|Sirielle]] 22:24, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

:Thanks for your comments, Sirielle. I've made some changes to the Finwë article (hopefully for the better!).--[[User:Morgan|Morgan]] 11:47, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

== king ==
would he have become king upon setting foot in aman? then the start of his official rule as King of the Noldor would have been from yt 1133 right?
--[[User:Yeyeye|Yeyeye]] 01:54, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
:Logically yes, but that doesn't mean we should extrapolate on that. Perhaps he was considered a King already in the Great March, like Elwe. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 14:48, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
::Ok thanks. Cuz in the Silmarillion, finwe ingwe and olwe arent referred to as kings until they reach aman and elwe isnt considered a king until he established doriath. they were called chieftains and lords before.--[[User:Yeyeye|Yeyeye]] 01:15, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
:::Actually the Silmarillion says that when Elwe disappeared, Olwe took the "kingship" of the Teleri. This indicates that Elwe was already a king, and possibly the other two also. [[User:Sage|Sage]] 12:57, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
:::Alright so what dates should i put for all 4 of the kings for the start of their rule?--[[User:Yeyeye|Yeyeye]] 23:35, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

== 4 elven ambassadors ? ==

In the wiki :The three elven ambassadors were Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë, who would later become kings of the three factions into which the elven race was split.[4]

....but might be 4 ambassadors because Olwe is missing. The teleri were a big faction with 2 Kings. {{unsigned|162.158.91.253}}

:Olwe was not one of the Three Ambassadors (the capitalized term is canon). --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 07:26, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

== earlier name ==

In the article it is stated, that Finwe was called Finwe Noleme in the Lost Tales. This is wrong. He was called Noleme Fingolma (I, 238ff.). He is the father of Turgon. His relationship to Feanor and Orodreth (II, 82) is not clear. In the 'sketch' finally we have Finn and his three sons: Feanor, Fingolfin and Finrod (father of Orodreth) (IV, 15). [[User:Ptolemaios|Ptolemaios]] ([[User talk:Ptolemaios|talk]]) 19:42, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Gandalf/Names

2024-01-18T07:00:47Z

Ptolemaios: /* Gandalf's Westron name */ new section

Is this article really necessary? I think it is useful, but needs a lot of work and the same idea should be applied to other characters with many names, like [[Túrin]], [[Sauron]] and [[Morgoth]]. --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 12:32, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

:It seems like it could be effectively compiled in the names section within the [[Gandalf]] article, in the same format as is being used for the Sauron [[Sauron#Names|names section]]. Otherwise, we might have to get into the mess of how many names are enough to warrant an individual page, and how the pages should be organized.--[[User:Grace18|Grace18]] 18:00, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

::Yes, I do think it is better for it being in the same article, though I do understand the intention of this kind of page, to give some room to develop descriptions and explanations. This method is probably move effective to write about the history and etymology of each ''name'' (when pertinent) rather than having the standard Etymology and Names headings. Some issues I have looking at [[Sauron#Names|Sauron's name section]] is that it giving the etymology of Gorthaur in the Names section but there is Etymology section already so shouldn't it belong there or is it only reserved for the name Sauron? [[User:Gaetano|Gaetano]] 10:37, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

:::As I propose in [[Forums:Names in separated pages]], the "Etymology" section is for the main name of the article. The "Names" section is for other names, and an etymology of them can be included there as well as an explanation of their origin. This avoids that the "Etymology" section becomes a hotchpotch like many articles still have. --[[User:LorenzoCB|LorenzoCB]] 15:09, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

== Gandalf's Westron name ==

In the article it is speculated, that Gandalf's name in Westron begins with a G-. This is not necessarily the case. In the quoted sentence there is a Tengwar G and a rune. The rune is number 19 in the chart of the Angerthas given in Appendix E. There it has the value "g". This is the value, the Dwarves have given this rune. But the value given to this rune in Gondolin was "Dh" (cf. PE XV, p. 111). This could be "Tharkun". Or even easier: On the map of Thror - as given in the "Hobbit" - Tolkien was simply using the historical values of the runes and the language was English. As he is explaining in Appendix F II, he is using English for Westron names. So this rune just gives the first letter of Gandalf's English name. That "Gandalf" is a substitution is explicitly stated in UT p. 399 and it means "Staff-elf". That Tolkien was using English as a substitution for the Common Speech, even when written in runes, is further confirmed in the Book of Mazarbul, cf. HoME vol. 12, p. 298. So any guess from this rune about Gandalf's Westron name is in vain. [[User:Ptolemaios|Ptolemaios]] ([[User talk:Ptolemaios|talk]]) 07:00, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Nauglamír

2024-01-18T05:38:30Z

Ptolemaios: /* Other versions of the legendarium */

{{object infobox
| name=Nauglamír
| image=[[File:Ted Nasmith - The Nauglamir.jpg|250px]]
| caption="The Nauglamír" by [[Ted Nasmith]]
| pronun={{respell|now|gla-mear}}
| othernames="Necklace of the Dwarves"<br />''Sigil Elu-naeth'' ([[Sindarin|S]])
| location=[[Nargothrond]], [[Doriath]], [[Mouths of Sirion]]
| owner=[[Finrod]], [[Thingol]], [[Lúthien]], [[Dior]], [[Elwing]]
| type=Jewellery
| appearance=Carcanet of gold, and set therein were gems uncounted from [[Valinor]]; later set with a [[Silmaril]]
| creator=[[Dwarves of the Blue Mountains|Craftsmen of Nogrod and Belegost]]
| created=
| createdlocation=[[Blue Mountains]]
| destroyer=
| destroyed=
| destroyedlocation=
| notablefor=Containing a [[Silmarils|Silmaril]]
| gallery=the Nauglamír
}}
The '''Nauglamír''' or '''Necklace of the Dwarves''' was a famed piece of jewellery; combined with the craft of [[Dwarves]] and gems from [[Valinor]], it was of great grace and beauty which it gave to its wearer. Despite being loaded with gems, it sat lightly on the neck.<ref name=return/>

It later bore the [[Silmaril]] rescued by [[Beren]] from the [[Iron Crown]], and it became jewellery more beautiful than anything ever before seen in [[Arda]]. But because of the Silmaril it was coveted by the [[Sons of Fëanor]] and entangled in the [[Doom of the Noldor]].

==History==
The Nauglamír was a golden necklace made for [[Finrod Felagund]] by the [[Dwarves]] of [[Nogrod]] and [[Belegost]], in which were set countless gems that Finrod had brought with him from [[Valinor]].<ref name=return>{{S|Return}}</ref> Despite this, the carcanet weighed no more as if it was made of straw. It was Finrod's most prized treasure in [[Nargothrond]] and the most famed Dwarven work of the [[Elder Days]].<ref name=doriath>{{S|Doriath}}</ref>

[[File:Pete Amachree - Húrin finds the Nauglamír, in the ruins of Nargothrond.jpg|thumb|left|250px|''Húrin finds the Nauglamír, in the ruins of Nargothrond'' by [[:Category:Images by Pete Amachree|Pete Amachree]]]]
After the [[Fall of Nargothrond]]<ref>{{S|Turin}}</ref>, the Nauglamír remained forgotten in the hoard of [[Glaurung]]. [[Húrin|Húrin Thalion]] later found it and brought the famed treasure to the Kingdom of [[Doriath]], where he threw it on the floor before [[Thingol]], scornfully thanking the elven king for fostering [[Turin Turambar|Turin]], his son, and [[Morwen]], his wife. [[Melian|Queen Melian]] then spoke to Húrin, seeking to calm his anger, and looking long into her eyes, he at last perceived the truth of how Morgoth had twisted all that he had made him see to further his woe. Then picking up the Nauglamír, he offered it to Thingol:

{{blockquote|‘Receive now, lord, the Necklace of the Dwarves, as a gift from one who has nothing, and as a memorial of Húrin of Dor-lómin. For now my fate is fulfilled, and the purpose of Morgoth achieved; but I am his thrall no longer.’|''[[Quenta Silmarillion]]'', "[[Of the Ruin of Doriath]]"}}

After Húrin left Doriath, Thingol sought to have the treasure remade to bear the [[Silmaril]] of [[Lúthien]] and [[Beren]] in it that he had grown to love fiercely, so that he may wear it day and night, and for this employed the work of [[Dwarves of Nogrod]] that had been invited to [[Menegroth]].<ref name=doriath/>

The Dwarves were enthralled by the beauty of the Nauglamír and the Silmaril, and desired to possess them for themselves but agreed to the task nonetheless. After they completed their work, they refused to hand the treasure to Thingol, who had come alone into their smithy to receive it, claiming that the Elven king had no right to the Nauglamír, since their fathers had made it for [[Finrod Felagund]] alone, and that it was stolen by Húrin from the halls of [[Nargothrond]]. But Thingol understood well that they only wished to possess the Silmaril and answered with scorn:
{{blockquote|‘How do ye of uncouth race dare to demand aught of me, Elu Thingol, Lord of Beleriand, whose life began by the waters of Cuiviénen years uncounted ere the fathers of the stunted people awoke?’|''[[Quenta Silmarillion]]'', "[[Of the Ruin of Doriath]]"}}
After this, he called for them to leave Menegroth without payment. But the Dwarves, enraged by his words, slew the king as he stood among them and took the Nauglamír for themselves to carry it off to their homes in the mountains. Yet as they fled eastwards, they were pursued and killed by the avenging Elves, who returned the Nauglamír to Doriath. However, two of Thingol's murderers had managed to slip through the Elves' grasp and returned to [[Nogrod]], where they lied about the cause for the slaying of their kinsmen by the Elves of Doriath, saying that Thingol had ordered them killed to cheat them of their payment. This news roused the [[Dwarves of Nogrod]] to war, and they marched against Doriath, which now lay open to its enemies as the [[Girdle of Melian]] protected it no longer; for Melian had passed from Middle-Earth soon after Thingol's death and returned to the [[Undying Lands]]. As a result, the army of the Dwarves overwhelmed the Elves, and they ransacked Menegroth in the [[Battle of the Thousand Caves]], stealing the entire treasure of Doriath, including the Nauglamír. But they were waylaid by [[Beren]] and a host of [[Green-elves]] of [[Ossiriand]] at [[Sarn Athrad]], who had been informed of what had befallen in Doriath by a messenger. The Dwarves were all [[Battle of Sarn Athrad|slain]], and the treasure was cast into the [[Ascar|River Ascar]], except for the Nauglamír, which Beren bore back to Lúthien at [[Tol Galen]].<ref name=doriath/>

[[File:Peter Xavier Price - The Request of Thingol.jpg|thumb|''The Request of Thingol'' by [[Peter Xavier Price]]]]
Lúthien wore the Nauglamír for the rest of her life, their combining beauty being the fairest sight east of Valinor. At her second death, a lord of the [[Green-elves]] brought it to Doriath to her son, [[Dior]]. But when the [[Sons of Fëanor]] heard about its whereabouts, compelled by the [[Oath of Fëanor]], they demanded the [[Silmaril]] from Dior, who gave no answer; and so the [[Sons of Fëanor]] attacked Doriath, resulting in the [[Second Kinslaying]] and the death of Dior. But their attempt to reclaim the Silmaril failed, as Dior's daughter [[Elwing]] had fled beforehand to the [[Havens of Sirion]], carrying the Nauglamír with her.<ref name=doriath/>

The Sons of Fëanor continued their pursuit of the Silmaril and attacked the Mouths of Sirion, leading to the [[Third Kinslaying]], but Elwing cast herself into the sea to escape them, wearing the Nauglamír around her neck. While it is unknown what happened to the Nauglamír itself after this, Elwing and the Silmaril were saved by [[Ulmo]], who brought her in the form of a great white bird to her husband [[Eärendil]] aboard his ship, ''[[Vingilot]]'', in the middle of the night. Elwing was returned to her human form by morning, and together they sought the undying lands of [[Aman]]. Guided by the light of the Silmaril, which Eärendil bound to his brow, they pierced through the [[Shadowy Seas]], and found their way to [[Valinor]].<ref>{{S|24}}</ref>

==Etymology==
''Nauglamír'' is formed from the words ''[[naug]]'' ("dwarf") + ''[[mîr]]'' ("jewel").<ref>{{S|Appendix}}, entries ''mîr'', ''naug''</ref>
In the [[The Etymologies|''Etymologies'']] the word ''nauglamîr'' is listed as [[Doriathrin]],<ref>{{LR|Etymologies}}, p. 373, entry "[[MIR|MIR-]]")</ref> while the true [[Noldorin]] idiom is said to be ''Mîr na Nauglin'' or ''Nauglvir'' (-> ''Nauglavir'').<ref>{{LR|Etymologies}}, p. 375, entry "NAUK-" (note that [[Christopher Tolkien]] uses the capitalized form of ''Mîr'' in the Index, cf. p. 442)</ref>

The necklace was also known as '''''Sigil Elu-naeth''''' ("Necklace of the Woe of Thingol").<ref>{{WJ|I}}, p. 258</ref>

==Other versions of the legendarium==
In ''[[The Book of Lost Tales]]'', the '''''Nauglafring''''', is described as an even more important object: it is made by the Dwarves for Thingol for the Silmaril from the gold brought in boxes by Úrin from the caves of the Rodothlim,<ref>{{LT2}} pp. 114, 115, 227, 228</ref> it more directly causes the death of Thingol as it gets caught behind a tree branch when Thingol is riding outside the [[Girdle of Melian]] and is attacked by the Dwarves. Thingol, unhorsed, is slain, after which Melian's protection is lifted and Doriath is sacked.<ref name=lt2iv>{{LT2|IV}}</ref>

''Nauglafring'' or ''Fring na Nauglithon'' is [[Gnomish]] for "Necklace of the Dwarves", from ''naugl-'' ("dwarf") + ''fring'' ("carcanet, necklace").<ref>{{LT2|Appendix}}, entry "Nauglafring"</ref> The [[Qenya]] cognate was '''''Firin Nautaron'''''.<ref>{{PE|15}}, p. 15</ref>
{{references}}
[[Category:Ilkorin names]]
[[Category:Rings and jewels]]
[[Category:Sindarin names]]
[[de:Nauglamír]]
[[fr:encyclo/artefacts/bijoux/nauglamir]]
[[fi:Nauglamír]]