Talk:Barahir's outlaws

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Renaming article

I am not at all keen on the renaming of this article, which is now:

1. A name which no one would ever type into a search on Google or on this website, thereby making it almost impossible to find.
2. A term I've never heard anyone ever use before.
3. Leaving a bunch of links and references around all over the place which is now inconsistent with this new article name. Indeed, the article itself hasn't been edited at all to reflect this apparent new name.

Can we go back to the old name, please? --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 06:12, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

In one manuscript in The Lays of Beleriand, Tolkien used the term "XII Bëorings" in a header. It is not known why Tolkien used the name "XII Bëorings" at that time. The name might be shorthand for the "twelve Bëorings", or it might be a "translation" of an in-universe name of an unknown language or it might just be an out of universe identifying term. Regardless, it is the only term that Tolkien gave that identifies the outlaws that followed Barahir, though it is unknown why Tolkien used a Roman numeral in this name. However, if most people desire for the old name to be the page-name, then it should be moved, as long as the term "XII Bëorings" is mentioned somewhere on the page.Dour1234 (talk) 07:42, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

If the shorthand explanation is true (which I'd bet), then mentioning it might be like if we listed "S." as another name of Sauron because Tolkien once wrote something like "Grishnákh returns to S. in Barad-dur". I would want that to be avoided. It's unclear to me if the headers are meant to be "part of" the Lay or if they're just organizing things for Tolkien's own use. Skimming, I don't see other abbreviations or shorthand, other than an ampersand. I could see something like "Tolkien may have referred to them by the name 'the Twelve Beorings' ('XII Beorings')", citing the page, and maybe only including "XII Beorings" as a quote in the reference. And there's another issue with this name, since Christopher points out that you'd expect Tolkien to have included Beren in the group, making thirteen. If the article is about all the outlaws including Beren, instead of all the outlaws except Beren. Yaulendil ^{(Talk/Contribs/Edits)} 08:08, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

In the case of “S” for Sauron, we know Sauron's name. In the case of the outlaws, we only have "XII Bëorings" as an identifier with no other label. We can make guesses, but we cannot assume anything other than what we know. Also, it is Barahir who is excluded, not Beren, and that is because the group is comprised of those who followed Barahir. Moving the page to "Barahir's outlaws" would be fine, as Mith brought up above, as long as "XII Bëorings" is mentioned somewhere on the page.Dour1234 (talk) 09:18, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

To Dour: no one other than you wishes to see this change on TG. IvarTheBoneless (talk) 09:25, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

I believe you must have misunderstood my above talk page reply that you are replying to. I said above that I was ok with the page being moved to "Barahir's outlaws" as long as "XII Bëorings" is mentioned somewhere on the page (which it currently is in the OVOTL).Dour1234 (talk) 10:58, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

I agree. It should never have been renamed and was changed without discussion. JR Snow (talk) 13:24, 19 April 2025 (UTC)