Latest comment: 8 March by Ed8r in topic location of the Chetwood
Want to chat about Tolkien in real-time?
Join our Discord server for discussions, collaboration, and a vibrant community!
location of the Chetwood
"woodlands that lay east and south of the town of Bree"
I would like to point out that none of the maps of this area drawn by J.R.R. Tolkien show extensive woodland south of Bree and the Great East Road. All the extant maps, including the very early ones reproduced in The Art of the Lord of the Rings (figs 30 and 70), indicate the woodlands to be east and north of Bree*. I'd like to get comments from Tolkien scholars on this seeming discrepancy, but I have yet to write to any of them.
- The one possible exception is the map published in 1954, which at least includes a couple of the tree symbols to left of the word Bree below the road. However, no woodland to the south of Bree is indicated below the road on any of the other maps created by J.R.R. or Christopher Tolkien (nor does any woodland to the south of the road appear on the Baynes map). Ed8r (talk) 16:13, 6 March 2026 (UTC)
- The woodlands do not need to be "extensive" for the statement in J.R.R. Tolkien's unfinished index to be correct. I double-checked the quote from the entry for the Chetwook in the unifished index that J.R.R. Tolkien wrote for The Lord of the Rings that is cited in Wayne Hammond & Christina Scull's The Lord of the Rings - A Reader's Companion. It says east and south of Bree. A part from that, the narrative in the chapter A Knife in the Dark in The Fellowship of the Ring mentions that they left Bree via the South-gate, "they kept on along the Road for some miles. It bent to the left, curving back into its eastward line as it rounded the feet of Bree-hill, and then it began to run swiftly downwards into wooded country." So the East Road seems to run through a wood there. Furthermore, the Third Map of The Lord of the Rings that was drawn by J.R.R. Tolkien shows that the East Road runs south for a short time after existing form Bree and then turns left to a roughly eastward direction.The placement of the dot for Bree and of the East Road on that map leaves a little part southeast of Bree that could be wooded. The narrative and J.R.R. Tolkien's last map are compatible with J.R.R. Tolkien's statement about the location of the Chetwood in the unfinished index. Apart from that it can be seen from the letters of J.R.R. Tolkien that Christopher Tolkien drew the General Map of Middle-earth (which you seem to be referring to) in a hurry, even during the night and Christopher Tolkien wrote that his map has deficiencies. The map lacks a lot of detail and other places that are wooded in the narrative do not show symbols for trees or a wood on the map. --Akhôrahil (talk) 11:52, 7 March 2026 (UTC)
- No, just to continue this as a discussion:
- I agree that the text and the 1954 map establish "some" amount of woodlands slightly south of the road. Nevertheless, it seems odd for him to have specifically identified the Chetwood as lying "south and east" when, from his earliest maps, it clear he had identified it to the north and east. In addition, all of the published maps also show the woodlands with their label to the north and east, rather than south and east, so it seems odd for him to have stated that the woods were south of Bree.
- Regarding Christopher's comments about the map having insufficiencies, yet according to the Reader's Companion (p.lxi) J.R.R. himself had written to Austin Olney at his American publisher that "I have finally decided . . . to take the maps as 'correct' and adjust the narrative. . . ." Ed8r (talk) 15:40, 7 March 2026 (UTC)
- Please be precise and use the names of the maps that are used on Tolkien Gateway and describe in detail which features on those maps you mean rather than using vague terms, such as "his earliest maps" (many readers do not have access to the book The Art of the Lord of the Rings and do now know which number of which figure corresponds to which map), "it clear he had identified it wo the north and east". I recommend to use an electronic device to zoom in on the maps (i.e. a tablet computer where you can zoom in using your fingers). The First Map of the Lord of the Rings that was drawn by J.R.R. Tolkien does not show the extension of the Chetwood in a colour for woodland and is too small in scale for the placement of the label Chetwood to be meaningfully indicative, because the label for Midgewater is so close to it. The Second Map of the Lord of the Rings that was drawn by J.R.R. Tolkien and redrawn by Christopher Tolkien in the book The War of the Ring does not show Eriador and the Chetwood. The Third Map of The Lord of the Rings is also too faint as far as the green colour of the wooded area is concerned, but there would be enough space between the dot with the label Bree and the East Road running south and then east for woods being south and east of Bree between Bree and the East Road. I further recommend to read A Concise List of The Lord of the Rings Textual Changes from Allen & Unwin 1st edition to HarperCollins 2021 edition compiled by zionius Last updated in Sep. 2023 to see which changes J.R.R. Tolkien made in the second edition of LOTR that changed descriptions of road or terrain features. You will see in this list that opposed to other instances (e.g. in chapters I.3, I.4, I.5, I.12, IV.3 and IV.6), J.R.R. Tolkien did not make any changes to the narrative concering the way they travel from Bree to the Chetwood, wooded areas along the way or the Chetwood. This is an indication that J.R.R. Tolkien did not think that there were inconsistencies between his entry for the Chetwood in his unfinished index of LOTR, the narrative of LOTR and the General Map of Middle-earth that was drawn by Christopher Tolkien in haste partly during the night based on The Third Map of The Lord of the Rings that was drawn by J.R.R. Tolkien. In conclusion, the information about the location of Chetwood relative to the location of Bree that is based on J.R.R. Tolkien's entry for Chetwood in his Unfinished Index for The Lord of the Rings on the Chetwood page on Tolkien Gateway is correct. --Akhôrahil (talk) 14:25, 8 March 2026 (UTC)
- Yes, everything you cite is accurate.
- My apologies for not identifying which map I refer to, but the two that are shown as figs 30 and 70 in the book The Art of the Lord of the Rings are identified in that book only by longer descriptions I preferred not to have to repeat here. However, in order to fill out my reference, I will add here that fig 30 shows just a bare pencil sketch tracing out the route of the Fellowship from Bree to Weathertop, showing the road and—"northeast" of the label for Bree—Tolkien's original names that he was trying out for the woods: Chedhill and Ferrill. Fig 70 is a reproduction of his working map of Middle-earth using graph paper. The labels on this map are tiny of necessity, but by snapping a photo of the page in my book then using that to zoom in, the label for Chetwood can be read above Bree.
- As for the maps that this site reproduces, which can be enlarged easily on any computer screen, it is the 1953 General Map of Middle-earth that shows a couple little tree symbols below the road and to the left of the label for Bree, but on the 1980 map the West of Middle-earth that Christopher redrew, he did not include any of those symbols. On both maps the label for Chetwood remains above—not below—the wood that surrounds Bree.
- I did not intend Tolkien Gateway to change its Chetwood page, although I did think that someone perhaps ought to consider whether Tolkien's description was a discrepancy. Thank you for discussing what to my mind was a discrepancy between his identification of the wood as being "east and south" when every map shows the greatest area of this wood to be east and north. Ed8r (talk) 15:46, 8 March 2026 (UTC)
- Please be precise and use the names of the maps that are used on Tolkien Gateway and describe in detail which features on those maps you mean rather than using vague terms, such as "his earliest maps" (many readers do not have access to the book The Art of the Lord of the Rings and do now know which number of which figure corresponds to which map), "it clear he had identified it wo the north and east". I recommend to use an electronic device to zoom in on the maps (i.e. a tablet computer where you can zoom in using your fingers). The First Map of the Lord of the Rings that was drawn by J.R.R. Tolkien does not show the extension of the Chetwood in a colour for woodland and is too small in scale for the placement of the label Chetwood to be meaningfully indicative, because the label for Midgewater is so close to it. The Second Map of the Lord of the Rings that was drawn by J.R.R. Tolkien and redrawn by Christopher Tolkien in the book The War of the Ring does not show Eriador and the Chetwood. The Third Map of The Lord of the Rings is also too faint as far as the green colour of the wooded area is concerned, but there would be enough space between the dot with the label Bree and the East Road running south and then east for woods being south and east of Bree between Bree and the East Road. I further recommend to read A Concise List of The Lord of the Rings Textual Changes from Allen & Unwin 1st edition to HarperCollins 2021 edition compiled by zionius Last updated in Sep. 2023 to see which changes J.R.R. Tolkien made in the second edition of LOTR that changed descriptions of road or terrain features. You will see in this list that opposed to other instances (e.g. in chapters I.3, I.4, I.5, I.12, IV.3 and IV.6), J.R.R. Tolkien did not make any changes to the narrative concering the way they travel from Bree to the Chetwood, wooded areas along the way or the Chetwood. This is an indication that J.R.R. Tolkien did not think that there were inconsistencies between his entry for the Chetwood in his unfinished index of LOTR, the narrative of LOTR and the General Map of Middle-earth that was drawn by Christopher Tolkien in haste partly during the night based on The Third Map of The Lord of the Rings that was drawn by J.R.R. Tolkien. In conclusion, the information about the location of Chetwood relative to the location of Bree that is based on J.R.R. Tolkien's entry for Chetwood in his Unfinished Index for The Lord of the Rings on the Chetwood page on Tolkien Gateway is correct. --Akhôrahil (talk) 14:25, 8 March 2026 (UTC)
- The woodlands do not need to be "extensive" for the statement in J.R.R. Tolkien's unfinished index to be correct. I double-checked the quote from the entry for the Chetwook in the unifished index that J.R.R. Tolkien wrote for The Lord of the Rings that is cited in Wayne Hammond & Christina Scull's The Lord of the Rings - A Reader's Companion. It says east and south of Bree. A part from that, the narrative in the chapter A Knife in the Dark in The Fellowship of the Ring mentions that they left Bree via the South-gate, "they kept on along the Road for some miles. It bent to the left, curving back into its eastward line as it rounded the feet of Bree-hill, and then it began to run swiftly downwards into wooded country." So the East Road seems to run through a wood there. Furthermore, the Third Map of The Lord of the Rings that was drawn by J.R.R. Tolkien shows that the East Road runs south for a short time after existing form Bree and then turns left to a roughly eastward direction.The placement of the dot for Bree and of the East Road on that map leaves a little part southeast of Bree that could be wooded. The narrative and J.R.R. Tolkien's last map are compatible with J.R.R. Tolkien's statement about the location of the Chetwood in the unfinished index. Apart from that it can be seen from the letters of J.R.R. Tolkien that Christopher Tolkien drew the General Map of Middle-earth (which you seem to be referring to) in a hurry, even during the night and Christopher Tolkien wrote that his map has deficiencies. The map lacks a lot of detail and other places that are wooded in the narrative do not show symbols for trees or a wood on the map. --Akhôrahil (talk) 11:52, 7 March 2026 (UTC)