Talk:Dale

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When the three Hobbit movies have come out the "Portrayal in Adaptations" will need to be updated. --Gamling 22:50, 18 March 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I would like this to be used as featured article any suggestions on what to do to article to help it conform to a higher standards Throrin Longbeard 11:01, 21 May 2014 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This isn't really the place to discuss this, but I think Portrayal in Adaptations and Etymology sections need sources. I think the History section could be better fleshed out (and sub-divided). Could be a bit of a better mention of the peoples and rulers, as well. --Mith (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 15:02, 21 May 2014 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Merge?

Latest comment: 17 November 20246 comments6 people in discussion

Should the two articles for Dale be merged?--Kulid123 19:38, 2 May 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I agree that the Dale page and the Dale (Kingdom) page should be merged so that only a page called Dale remains. In my opinion, there is no extra value in having a separate Dale (Kingdom) page, because the content of both pages will be virtually identical. The only information about the realm of Dale we have that does not cover the town or the area of the later town is that the realm of Dale extended south and east of Lake-town at the end of the Third Age at the time of King Brand and that the enemies that threatened the borders later crossed the Carnen and drove back the forces of Dale. --Akhôrahil (talk) 09:10, 15 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I also think that the two pages should be merged into one.Dour1234 (talk) 11:23, 15 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I agree with merging them as well. MOONBOLT (talk) 21:13, 15 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I also agree. --Mord 03:55, 16 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

To copy/paste my comment from Discord (again):

"I fail to see much reason why 'Dale' and 'Kingdom of Dale' should be separate articles. Best reason I can think of is that 'Dale' should only refer to the city, while 'Kingdom of Dale' should refer to Dale in the broader sense of a wider region (think 'Venice the city' vs 'Venice the republic').

Even so, for practical reasons I'm 100% for the merge." - IvarTheBoneless (talk) 19:36, 17 November 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

date for building of the town "Dale"

Latest comment: 12 December 20243 comments2 people in discussion

The article says that Dale (the town) has been built under Thror's presence in Erebor and before, the population was in the valley where Dale would be built. I suppose that you do this to solve what seems to be (or is ?) a contradiction between 2 texts :

In the Hobbit chap 1 : Thorin says "my grandfather [=Thror] was King under the Mountain again and treated with great reverence by the mortal men, who lived to the South, and were gradually spreading up the Running River as far as the valley overshadowed by the Mountain. They built the merry town of Dale there in those days." dated between 2590 and 2770 TA

And in Unfinished Tales 2nd Age 3rd chap : "As for the Northmen, a few, it is said, fled over the Celduin (River Running) and were merged with the folk of Dale under Erebor (with whom they were akin)" dated 1856 TA

But in this last text, I can't imagine that "Dale" will not point to the town, in particular because of the majuscule. It seems to me that if Dale wasn’t built in Tolkien’s mind when he wrote this, he would have writtent “with the folk of the dale under Erebor”, don’t you think ?

Yet, another kind of solution may be suggested :

1) people live around Erebor ; Dale is a already village

2) 1856 TA : Northmen from the south fly and some stay around Erebor

2) 1999 TA : Thrain I become King of Erebor ; Dale become tradingly more attractive and its population increases so that more buildings are set

3) 2210 TA : Dwarves leave Erebor ; trade decrease so that a urban way of life is no more bearable ; Lots of people has to leave, lots of building are not occupied anymore and become ruins

4) 2590 TA : Dwarves come back ; Dale become attractive again ; Dale is “rebuilt”

5) 2746 TA : Thorin II's birth

Thorin II, who’s speaking about Dale in the Hobbit, may have a shortened vision of History or just doesn’t want to give to much detail in his conversation, so he says “built” and not “rebuilt”

All this to suggest to be less confident in a “Dale” region (or even a “Dale realm” : I haven’t found such words in the text) in this article. Maybe just tell the fact and let people imagine what may combine both ?

By the way, this is what is written in Erebor”s article : “During Thráin's rule many riches were mined from the depths of the mountain, including the Arkenstone. The increased prosperity of the region led to the establishment of the town of Dale, which was built by Men between Erebor's slopes.”

Tolkien Gateway is a Dwarf mine full of jewels ! thanks so much for it <3

The best point is : sourcing the facts ! Erendis (talk) 12:48, 10 December 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I am against inserting a speculation that Dale was the name of a village in or before T.A. 1856. I am also against insertating a speculation that Thorin II misstated history of meant "rebuilt" instead of "built". If you look at the existing references and at the sources, you will see that J.R.R. Tolkien did not make a statement that Dale was the name of a village in 1856. If you look at the existing references and at the existing sources you will see that Dale is also used as the name of something else than the town, more specifically the area where the later town is located. That area is between two arms of the Lonely Mountain. An area between two arms of a mountain typically is a valley. In addition, the word dale means valley in english. So Dale can be the name of a valley (J.R.R. Tolkien used "valley of Dale", "rebuilt the town in Dale" (not "rebuilt the town of Dale" or "rebuilt Dale"), "The river loops suddenly east across Dale in front of the ruined town" (not "The river loops suddendly east across the valley in front of the ruined town of Dale" or ""The river loops suddenly east across the valley in front of the ruins of the town of Dale")). I Tolkien uses "Dale" with a capitalized D he uses it as a name. People can have lived there in individual houses, groups of houses, a village or several villages. There is no need to speculate in the article in what kind of community and how close to each other people lived in this area in T.A. 1856. --Akhôrahil (talk) 14:09, 11 December 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"rebuilt the town in Dale" => This escaped my researches and mind ! Thank you so much and I'm terribly sorry to have wasted your time. Erendis (talk) 14:20, 12 December 2024 (UTC)Reply[reply]