what is the diffrance between Uruk hai and the Black Uruks of mordor
Uruk-hai lifespan
This article states: "Lifespan: Possibly eternal" Is there any evidence for this? Or is this purely speculation? Ilúvatar 09:14, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- speculation. -- Ederchil (Talk/Contribs/Edits) 09:56, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
- Well, more an assumption. -- KingAragorn talk contribs edits email 22:56, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Bolg, son of Azog was the general that lead the orcs during the Battle of the Five Armies. His father Azog was slain by Dáin, son of Náin in the Battle of Azalnulbizar some 200 years earlier. This is at least an evidence that orcs were as long-lived as Dúnedain and Dwarves. If they are immortal is not clear though --Thalion 18:11, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
[carnsolus] orcs are not immortal, according to tolkien in morgoth's ring:
"They could be slain, and they were subject to disease; but apart from these ills they died and were not immortal, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain."
and if orcs are not, neither are the uruk hai --—Unsigned comment by 162.158.146.173 (talk).
- That passage by J.R.R. Tollien from Morgoth's Ring is only an unfinished piece of work that was not published during the lifetime of J.R.R. Tolkien. Tolkien had various theories about the origin of the orcs, which probably have an influence on whether they are immortal (if they were created from elves) or not. I recommend that you look at the Orcs/Origin page. --Akhorahil 08:24, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
Uruks and Uruk-hai
Is there anything to suggest that "Uruk-hai" is not simply the Black Speech plural of "uruk", while the Westron plural is rendered as "uruks"? So far as I can tell they are used pretty much interchangeably in the text of LotR. Only the Isengard Orcs consistently use "Uruk-hai". The Mordor Orcs and the Appendices use both terms (Appendix F, Other Races; Appendix A, Kings of the Mark, mentions "uruks" in service of Saruman; the tracker Orc in Mordor talks about "rebel Uruk-hai" (in the context of the Tower of Cirith Ungol fiasco).
"Uruk-hai" would simply mean "Orcs", but is used by the large fighting Orcs to refer to themselves (possibly because they consider themselves *real Orcs*, not like those sissy snaga). Many cultures IRL have names for themselves which translate as "people" or "real people". The term "uruk" would then have been borrowed into Westron from the Black Speech to refer to these breeds, often with the Westron plural (just as in English sometimes people will use the Latin plural of a Latin-origin word, and sometimes an Anglicized plural). --—Unsigned comment by 70.75.233.253 (talk).
Breeding
Looking around some related articles, I see the notion that the Uruks were bred in Minas Morgul during the Watchful Peace. Is it supported clearly somewhere? It seems to me an intepolation of the chronology: the Nazgul remain quiet in MM, then Sauron returns and soon after the Uruk-hai first appear out of Mordor. Filling the gaps we can deduce that they were bred in MM during the Peace, but this is not the only possible interpretation. The phrase "out of Mordor" could equally mean that they already existed, but known to be only in Mordor, and that it was their first sortie. Unless I am missing something of course. Sage 00:37, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
Exploring the ambiguity of the terms Orc, Uruk, Goblin, and Uruk-hai.
The Jackson films have left people with the impression that there is a clear line between Orcs, Uruks, Goblins, and Uruk-hai. Tolkien tended to use these terms interchangeably in the books, with the -hai suffix seeming to apply mostly to Saruman's orcs.
This article takes a stance that falls more in line with the Jackson portrayal of Uruk-hai, which are bigger, stronger, smarter, etc. I think that may need to be adjusted as that doesn't appear to have been the case in the books.
Perhaps there should be a separate article for the Jackson portrayal of Uruk-hai and how he made that distinction?
-MOON MOONBOLT (talk) 10:00, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- The article needs to be rewritten, needs to be based on statements in works written by J.R.R. Tolkien and needs to be backed up by references. Any speculative statements need to be transpartently phrased so that it is clear that they are just a possibility. A good start is to search for the word uruk in an e-book version of LOTR and to analyze the description there and the context where it is used. Gorbag mentions that they are Uruks and towards the end of the chapter The Tower of Cirith Ungol Sam says that "Gorbag's gear, was a better fit and better made", which indicates that Gorbag was not tall, but closer to the height of a Hobbit. Maybe Uruk is just a synonym for Orc and some Uruk or some of the Uruk-hai (which just means Orc folk) from some regions at some periods during the history were taller and others were smaller and we should provide the information from where which group of Uruks were at which point during the history of Gondor and should not speculate that this applies to other groups during other periods of the history of Gondor and Rohan. --Akhôrahil (talk) 12:29, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- Here are excerpts of all instances of Uruk-Hai in The Lord of the Rings and the Appendices:
- TTT: Uruk-hai
- "We are the fighting Uruk-hai! We slew the great warrior. We took the prisoners. We are the servants of Saruman the Wise (...) We came out of Isengard..."
- "I’ll look after it. Let the fighting Uruk-hai do the work, as usual..."''
- "But in the meantime the Uruk-hai of Isengard can do the dirty work, as usual..."
- TTT: Helm's Deep
- "Bring out your king! We are the fighting Uruk-hai (...) Do you wish to see the greatness of our army? We are the fighting Uruk-hai."
- "We are the Uruk-hai: we do not stop the fight for night or day, for fair weather or for storm. We cometo kill, by sun or moon. What of the dawn?"
- RotK: The Siege of Gondor
- "No hours so dark had Pippin known, not even in the clutches of the Uruk-hai."
- RotK: The Land of Shadow
- "...First they say it's a great Elf in bright armour, then it's a sort of small dwarf-man, then it must be a pack of rebel Uruk-hai; or maybe it's all the lot together."
- Appendix F
- "Orcs and the Black Speech. Orc is the form of the name that other races had for this foul people as it was in the language of Rohan. In Sindarin it was orch. Related, no doubt, was the word uruk of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kinds were called, especially by the Uruk-hai, snaga ‘slave’" (edited) MOONBOLT (talk) 19:46, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
Uruks/Uruk-hai
Ar-Zigûr (talk) 15:15, 19 October 2024 (UTC): I propose to rename the article to 'Uruks' and divide its 'History' section into four subsections: 'Origins', where it must be described how Uruks came into being in the first place (they were bred by Sauron) and populated Middle-earth before Saruman became the traitor to the White Councul; 'Uruks in Isengard', where it must be described how Saruman attracted, governed and bred his Uruks in Isengard; 'War of the Ring', where it must be described the prelude to the War, the breaking of the Fellowship, Merry and Pippin's captivity, the Battle of Helm's Deep simultaneously with the events in Mordor during Frodo's and Sam's sojourn there; and 'After the Third Age', where it must be described briefly what fate became with Uruks after the downfall of both Saruman and Sauron.
Or we can create a separate article named 'Uruks' and note in its 'Etymology' section that 'Uruks' is anglicised version of B.S. 'Uruk-hai' and pretend the fact that 'Uruks' and 'Uruk-hai' are indeed the same kind of creatures to be somehow irrelevant.
- I disagree with renaming the article (i.e. the page) Uruks. The term Uruk-hai is used more ofen in The Lord of the Rings and readers are more likley to know the term Uruk-hai than Uruks and more likely to search for the term Uruk-hai. If Uruk-hai are the same as Uruks and if the page is already called Uruk-hai, then there is not compelling reason for renaming the article. Apart from that, I agree with your proposals on what to present in the history section of the page. --Akhôrahil (talk) 15:45, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
- I agree.Dour1234 (talk) 16:19, 19 October 2024 (UTC)