I'm not a programmer of any sort, so I understand my suggestions here might be wildly unworkable or otherwise silly.
(Mostly suggestions to make, I'm too afraid and inexperienced to try to make any changes myself so far.)
Mention the redlinks in the chapters given in the Silmarillion Cite DTP references.Some Cite DTP refs give redlinks.S QS.05.001Digital Tolkien Project Citation Systems, The Silmarillion, "Quenta Silmarillion", "Of Eldamar", Paragraph 1But the page exists: Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië.- Seems this one has been repaired.
S QS.07.001Digital Tolkien Project Citation Systems, The Silmarillion, "Quenta Silmarillion", "Of the Silmarils", Paragraph 1Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor.- Bet they're taking care of all of it.
- They also always end with commas even if no redlinks, not sure if that's intentional or not.
See if I can make Cite DTP give a partial or generic reference.- S QS.01Digital Tolkien Project Citation Systems, The Silmarillion, "Quenta Silmarillion", "Of the Beginning of Days"
- S QSDigital Tolkien Project Citation Systems, The Silmarillion, "Quenta Silmarillion"
- SDigital Tolkien Project Citation Systems, The Silmarillion
- Works. And this might tell us what's up with the commas. Maybe it's intended to be followed by the paragraph, perhaps with the "First three words ... last" method DTP uses. Probably just a work in progress.
- Could Template:AA, Template:GA, and other templates in which you can include paragraphs or commentary notes on paragraphs, be used for ranges instead of single instances?
- So that instead of
{{GA|1}}giving J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The War of the Jewels, "Part One. The Grey Annals": §1 and then you add–§5for J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The War of the Jewels, "Part One. The Grey Annals": §1–§5, you can put in{{GA|1-5}}or{{GA|1|to=5}}or whatever makes the most sense and get J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The War of the Jewels, "Part One. The Grey Annals": §§1–5.- (This would also be good for preventing editors from putting in hyphens where en-dashes should go.)
- Wikipedia uses something called "hyphen2dash".[1]
- (More complex code could perhaps automatically turn strings in format 123–124 to 123–4.)
- (This would also be good for preventing editors from putting in hyphens where en-dashes should go.)
- And likewise with something like
{{GA|n|1-5}}or{{GA|n|1|to=5}}to get, instead of J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The War of the Jewels, "Part One. The Grey Annals": Note on §1, you get J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The War of the Jewels, "Part One. The Grey Annals": Notes on §§1–5.- (By the way, should it perhaps be "Commentary on §[etc.]" instead of "Note on §[etc.]"? Since that's how HoMe describes it and it helps distinguish Commentary section notes from the Notes sections?
- But Wikipedia doesn't split the beginning and end of a range into two different parameters,[2] so I probably shouldn't suggest the above. It should just remain a string, p=###, pp=###–###. At most maybe there could be some code that automatically converts a hyphen or an em-dash to an en-dash? And then you wouldn't want that to work outside of purely numerical information.
- Actually, Wikipedia does do something like this, with |year= and |last= parameters in the
{{Sfn}}template.[3]
- Actually, Wikipedia does do something like this, with |year= and |last= parameters in the
- I should check this:
{{GA|1–5}}: J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The War of the Jewels, "Part One. The Grey Annals": §1–5{{GA|1, 5}}: J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The War of the Jewels, "Part One. The Grey Annals": §1, 5- It doesn't double the § though.
{{GA|1|5}}: J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The War of the Jewels, "Part One. The Grey Annals": Note on §1{{GA|1|5|7}}: J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The War of the Jewels, "Part One. The Grey Annals": Note on §1
- So that instead of
- Consider replacing the colons in the citation templates that give : §# or : Note on §# with commas. See User:Yaulendil/Timeline ideas#General (formatting) at "Decide whether I can use colons twice in one full reference" and onwards.
- Could
{{AA|#|note}}give ":Commentary on §#" instead of ":Note on §#"? Or, it gives ":Note #", and{{AA|#|commentary}}gives ":Commentary on §#". But then all the former would be switched to the wrong thing.- Likewise I don't know if all the chapters that have commentary sections have a way of specifying paragraph or commentary on paragraphs.
- Also, should the paragraph a proper Note is for include the paragraph it's found at along with the Note # and the page the Note is on?
- Also remember my skepticism of colons and preference for commas everywhere.
- Consider making NBs their own template, rather than an ad hoc intra-page link each time.
Mention the usefulness of a quote parameter in the {{rp}} template.Mention possibly thinking about how to use {{rp}} template with many Cite DTP refs.
Possibilies for Template:Rp
- Give Template:Rp MouseOver functionality.
- Compare to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Reference_page
- On Wikipedia, the reference page template has parameters of "|quote=" and "|q=", which if used will cause a quote to appear if a reader hovers their cursor over the superscripted page number. The MouseOver box will show the quote and the page number(s) where the quote is found. I think this would be useful on TG for a couple purposes.
- First, I could supply quotes without making a separate References section entry for each quote. See Timeline/Second Age, where I felt the need to supply quotes to source the entries for years 730, 733, 735, 739, 824, 843, 850, 861, and 880, because those years aren't found in Arabic numerals that stick out to a reader combing through "The Mariner's Wife", you have to deduce them from the text, which would be tedious. (I could have used page numbers with Template:Rp, but I don't have a pre-1992 edition to cite from.) This means that where I could've put one entry in the References section for "The Mariner's Wife" minus "The Further Course of the Narrative" and "Notes", I now have at least six, which could be collapsed into one if the "|quote=" parameter worked.
- Second, even in the absence of quoting a passage, it might be helpful to allow the reader to see the type of location the Template:Rp tag is referring to; page, pages, paragraph, paragraphs, or otherwise. For example, in Timeline/Second Age, I felt it was worth it to use the Template:Rp tags to specify the headers in The Line of Elros in Roman numerals, because it's not always obvious which king's entry will contain the relevant information. For instance, a reader might not know to look for Gimilkhad's birth and death years under the entry for Ar-Gimilzor, XXIII. But a casual reader might not know what these Roman numerals are referring to, the way we might expect them to figure that ### refer to pages and §§### refer to paragraphs. Parameters that give MouseOver windows can help with that.
- (Maybe TG's Template:Rp already has parameters like these, but I haven't been able to make them work when trying.)
- Also, see "Decide how much to simplify long {{rp}} tags" (at User:Yaulendil/Timeline ideas). A MouseOver box could contain such info (paragraph #, Note #, commentary paragraph #) where otherwise only the page # is given.
- What are all the types of parameters TG could have?
- the default parameter, that it currently has
- |p= or |page=
- |pp= or |pages=
- I don't quite get the necessity of distinguishing everything by whether plural or singular since it's a string either way, but that's how Wikipedia does it.
- |para= or |paragraph=
- Maybe this could be used to automatically put § symbols in without having to select it from the Special characters menu, use keyboard shortcuts, or HTML codes. But by now I'm okay with using keyboard shortcuts whenever I do it. Still, maybe if you use |para= or |paras=, and you don't start it with § and §§, this parameter can automatically fill those in?
- Also, I overlooked that there's another special character menu below the editing window. Oh, never mind, there's no § symbol down there.
- Maybe this could be used to automatically put § symbols in without having to select it from the Special characters menu, use keyboard shortcuts, or HTML codes. But by now I'm okay with using keyboard shortcuts whenever I do it. Still, maybe if you use |para= or |paras=, and you don't start it with § and §§, this parameter can automatically fill those in?
- |paras= or |paragraphs=
- |dtp= or |cite-dtp=
- For the trailing-end DTP addresses (.###, .##.###, XX.##.###) detailed
abovebelow.
- For the trailing-end DTP addresses (.###, .##.###, XX.##.###) detailed
- |dtp-full= or |dtp-link=
- If the trailing end of a DTP address is going to be clickable as a link, then it would need the full DTP address to make a link to the DTP website's entry for that full address. (Since I doubt you would want to try to make the page reference template somehow get info from the preceding ref.)
- |line=
- For citing from the Lays, maybe some poems.
- But would there ever be a reason to quote by lines when you could quote by page and would need to cite the book the poem or lay is in anyway? I guess a little more specificity and time saved in finding the lines on the page.
- As long as you can specify what lay or poem within the text these lines are for. You couldn't do a general citation to HoMe III and then cite some lines, you'd have to specify whether it's Lay of the Children I, Lay of the Children II, Lay of Leithian, Lay of Leithian Recommenced, however many different works there are that count lines fresh from 1.
- For citing from the Lays, maybe some poems.
- |lines=
- |location= or |loc= or |at=
- Would I use this for the Roman numerals in The Line of Elros? Might be a moot question since someone could just use the pre-1992 pages or DTP once it's ready and there might be no other cases like this.
- |quote= or |quotation= or |q=
- |quote-page= or |quotation-page= or |qp=
- |quote-pages= or |quotation-pages= or |qpp
- |quote-para= or |quotation-paragraph= etc.
- |quote-paras= or |quotation-paragraphs= etc.
- |quote-line=
- |quote-lines=
- |quote-dtp=
- Too redundant since they could just click a link to DTP?
- |quotation-location= or |quote-loc= or |quote-at= etc.
- |language= or |quote-language= etc.
- Could be helpful if in Elvish, Anglo-Saxon, etc.
- |translation= or |translation-quote= etc.
- |non-quote=
- I forgot, this would probably be the most useful thing, and something that the Wikipedia template doesn't have. For things other than quotes to be seen on a MouseOver window, like if the tag is just :456, the MouseOver could say "p. 456 [<br>] Note 8" or "p. 456 [<br>] Commentary on §55".
- Wait, does |at= already do that?
- I don't think so, I think it puts strings on the main superscripted part.
- Wait, does |at= already do that?
- Maybe this sort of MouseOver could be generated automatically if there are multiple parameters, like if you do |p=456 and |lines=1003–12 it will automatically generate :456 with a MouseOver giving "p. 456 [<br>] Lines 1000–12".
- This might be possible using
#ifeqor#ifsomehow.
- This might be possible using
- I forgot, this would probably be the most useful thing, and something that the Wikipedia template doesn't have. For things other than quotes to be seen on a MouseOver window, like if the tag is just :456, the MouseOver could say "p. 456 [<br>] Note 8" or "p. 456 [<br>] Commentary on §55".
- |note=
- When combined with |p= parameter, you could get "Note #" under the p. ### in a MouseOver.
- |comment-para=
- When combined with |p= parameter, you could get "Commentary on §#" under the p. ### in a MouseOver.
- |comment-paras=
- Should I use a dashed underline, like Wikipedia does? Or a dotted underline, like I've seen elsewhere?
- Let's see if this works: I hope this is a dotted underline. Yep, that works. Now :789. Now another test. Oh hey, didn't even need to change the px size. Superscript.:789
- I guess that worked, the reference page label is probably a specifically smaller size of superscript though I bet.
- Let's see if this works: I hope this is a dotted underline. Yep, that works. Now :789. Now another test. Oh hey, didn't even need to change the px size. Superscript.:789
- I can't find any info about how to get hover/MouseOver boxes/text from scratch on MediaWiki.
- Note that some things I read might imply that some browsers won't be able to use these? Because of CSS or something?
- Maybe that's why I can't find examples of making a MouseOver box, maybe it's rolled up in some CSS module somewhere else on the sites.
- I see
a:hoverpop up in something called "Monobook". - Let's see: Testing. Nope, that does nothing.
- Looks like these are called "tooltips". Maybe even the utilitarian-looking black boxes on Wikipedia's reference page template is a tooltip.
- Testing: <tooltip text="This should appear when you hover the cursor.">This should appear on the page and be hovered over.</tooltip>
- Nope!
- Testing: This should appear on the page and be hovered over.This should appear when you hover the cursor.
It acts like a recognized template but the second parameter just disappears, not a MouseOver.- Oh no, it worked!
- How about
- Hm, I guess it doesn't work when you put superscript and font stuff within the parameters?
- :789"All that glitters is not gold."
- Does not spit out the second parameter. (Or maybe it just doesn't load on the preview? Maybe that's why I thought it didn't work the first time.)
- But I don't like that it changes my cursor to a pointing hand instead of leaving it an over-text cursor like Wikipedia does. And I don't know if it will take a
<br>in it. Testing.:789p. 789
"All that glitters is not gold." - Okay, so you can't put those code things in the first parameter, but you can in the second parameter. But honestly, at this point I should have all the tools to make my own crude template.
- But I don't like that it changes my cursor to a pointing hand instead of leaving it an over-text cursor like Wikipedia does. And I don't know if it will take a
- Does not spit out the second parameter. (Or maybe it just doesn't load on the preview? Maybe that's why I thought it didn't work the first time.)
- :789"All that glitters is not gold."
- Hm, I guess it doesn't work when you put superscript and font stuff within the parameters?
- How about
- Oh no, it worked!
- Testing: <tooltip text="This should appear when you hover the cursor.">This should appear on the page and be hovered over.</tooltip>
- I see
- Maybe that's why I can't find examples of making a MouseOver box, maybe it's rolled up in some CSS module somewhere else on the sites.
- Establish a way for Template:Rp, or a parallel template, to prevent too many Cite DTP refs for the same text from making the References section overlong.
- The problem: Template:Cite DTP is currently the preferred template for citing from Lord of the Rings aside from the Appendix and The Silmarillion. Eventually it will likely be usable for Unfinished Tales. And it is (or will be) especially useful for The Silmarillion where citing page numbers is discouraged due to there being no agreed-on edition, and for UT where you need a pre-1992 edition to cite page numbers. But what if you end up citing a hundred different paragraphs from the same book? That would create a hundred individual references in the References section, which can be avoided with other citation methods by using Template:Rp, but can't be avoided with Cite DTP.
- Possible solution: Give Template:Rp a parameter, or make another version of Template:Rp, so that a trailing part of a DTP citation can be appended to a ref tag that links to a leading part of the DTP citation in the References section.
- For example, it could look something like:
- Example where only the paragraph differs: One.[1].001 Two.[1].002 Three.[1].003
- In the References section, [1] would look like: 1. ↑ 1.0 1.1 1.2 S QS.01Digital Tolkien Project Citation Systems, The Silmarillion, "Quenta Silmarillion", "Of the Beginning of Days"
- Example where chapter and paragraphs differ: One.[1].01.001 Two.[1].02.002 Three.[1].03.003
- In the References section, [1] would look like: 1. ↑ 1.0 1.1 1.2 S QSDigital Tolkien Project Citation Systems, The Silmarillion, "Quenta Silmarillion"
- Example where part, chapter and paragraphs differ: One.[1]QS.03.003 Two.[1]AK.004 Three.[1]RP.005
- In the References section, [1] would look like: 1. ↑ 1.0 1.1 1.2 SDigital Tolkien Project Citation Systems, The Silmarillion
- Example where only the paragraph differs: One.[1].001 Two.[1].002 Three.[1].003
- The [1] could link to the entry in the References section, while the trailing part of each specific citation in the {{rp}} tag could link to the specific entry on the Digital Tolkien Project. A .10.015 alone within a [4].10.015 could link to https://cite.digitaltolkien.com/S/QS.10.015.
- Possible reason not to: Is including a link, especially to off-site, discouraged outside of a References section?
- For example, it could look something like:
- Another possible solution: Group many specific Cite DTP references together in bulleted lists under an umbrella reference for that book, part, or chapter.
Subpages to experiment in
User:Yaulendil/Template/Rp expanded
References
- ↑ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Module:String2#hyphen2dash
- ↑ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Reference_page
- ↑ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources/Further_considerations#Using_the_shortened_footnote_template_when_the_author_is_not_known
- ↑ S QSDigital Tolkien Project Citation Systems, The Silmarillion, "Quenta Silmarillion"