User:Yaulendil/sandbox

There's no project I'll list below that you can't work on in my stead, if you want to. Most of this I'll probably never get around to.

Article to-do lists

Page to-do list

Timeline articles

• See User:Yaulendil/Timeline ideas

Valinor

• Include a description of the two or three different geographical definitions of "Valinor"; synonymous with Aman, the central region of Aman on both sides of the Pelori, and the central region of Aman strictly west of the Pelori (though I don't recall specifically seeing a source for that third definition), and when these two or three different definitions have been used.

Chronology of Tolkien's writings

• Resources to use for this:
  • The J.R.R. Tolkien Companion and Guide (the book, not the TG page)
    • Namely Part 1: Chronology, which is about Tolkien's biography but apparently includes all his datable writings in detail.
  • The HoMe-texts in chronological order, by Ninni M. Pettersson, on the Forodrim website
  • Index:Writings by J.R.R. Tolkien, looks like a good page in its own right.
• About the claim that Tolkien had given up hope of seeing the Silmarillion published in his lifetime by the '60s, I never put much weight into that unsourced claim in the first place, but now I have Letter 284 (1966) as a specific example against it.

Poisoned Meads

• Mention the burning of them if the others haven't. Also, maybe somewhere out there there's a better close-up image of the flowers themselves. Those mod screenshots are close-up, but I don't think cut it.

Fonts

More thorough history of Tolkien fonts (anything used for Tolkien stuff, not only official ones), with examples of fonts in the form of images rather than text that your browser needs to have the fonts for to display. Also, more about the history: Where did that standard Tolkien font come from? That Jacksonverse stuff uses, but existed pre-Jacksonverse (Mithril Miniatures)? "Aniron" and "Tolkien Regular" are I think two instances of it.

(Amalcarin directed me to this site and PE20 for things that cover Tolkien's own fonts.)

Lost Road and Notion Club Papers

More references to the more obscure features of these works; the name Narkil, for example, I think connected to the sketched Irish episode of Lost Road. I was going to mention Agaldor, but he has his own page. A complete summary of the versions of each, and their connected Numenorean history writings (Fall of Numenor and Drowning of Anadune). And actually, maybe separate articles for the planned works themselves, rather than the corresponding chapters and parts in HoMe V and HoMe IX.

Tolkien Gateway

Could use many different updates across many different sections. There are a few "to this day" statements that are outdated. It would be nice if screenshots of old versions of the site specified what skin was present each time. I don't see any mention of the pre-Cavendish skin I saw on the Wayback Machine, the light gray brick pattern. Should also note what "Gateway to Mithilien" was made out of, First Sight of Ithilien by Ted Nasmith and "The Map of Tolkien's Middle-Earth - decorative border" by John Howe. And it doesn't record the recent changes of the last few years, 2023 onwards, the Main Page updates, the default dark mode. (Also, when was TG's 10-year anniversary, or when was the "celebrating ten years" banner up?)

Also, Tolkien Gateway:Updates has a gap from 2012 to 2022. Not sure if the site was really not updated in that decade (the "Mithilien" skin was there unchanged for a very long time) or if the updates just weren't recorded.

22 March 2025, the Discord reached its 1000th member.

Small changes

• Add a note to the birthyear in the Idril page like I did in the Timeline/First Age page.
• Fix a weird ref (ref 10) in the Nargothrond page.
• I have issues with Erendis's edit about Thingol and Elendil's heights in Thingol#Characteristics.
• Investigate the discrepancy between sentence and image about the bust on the Faith Faulconbridge page. Did she sculpt a bust before Tolkien's retirement, or after his death, in 1977, or both? And if both the link should link to a different file than it does?
• Include Vernor Vinge's short story "The Accomplice" in some popular culture article such as Tolkien's works in popular media.
• Does anywhere on TG mention the pre-Cirth Dwarvish pictograms that HoMe XII's Of Dwarves and Men mentions? Can't remember what term Of Dwarves and Men used, maybe something like complex characters.
• If you look at Poisoned Meads, it looks to me like there's a whitespace between the last letter of the blockquote and the end quotation mark, but it's not there in the wikitext. Not sure what that's about.
• For Letter 284, or whichever it was where Tolkien refers to Peter H. Salus's wrong statement on the shape of Middle-earth, it'd be nice to get access to that 15 January 1966 edition of the New Yorker to see what Salus got wrong.
• Note 1 on the page for Taliska perhaps isn't strong enough on its own to dissuade casual readers from coming off with the perception that Taliska is the ancestral language of Hadorian and Beorian in the late versions of the legendarium. Especially since my impression is that Taliskan is tied specifically to a more Gothic grammar or phonology that might not have survived to the Edainic words we know.
• On Encyclopedia of Arda, perhaps add something about how he once sold physical interactive versions on CD, you can see on the Wayback Machine.
• Apparently Tolkien's The Fall of Arthur and The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrún name-drop Tol Eressea, it might be worth mentioning that with a citation to the page location.
  • Also, Tol Eressëa and Almaren should reflect that in one version (can't remember which), the island the Valar dwelt on before the fall of the Two Lamps became Tol Eressëa. I think by the time Tolkien gave it the name Almaren that connection was dropped, but still.
• Family tree in the Bolger family article has white backgrounds, which is unusual and hard to read on dark mode.
  • Does Template:Familytree show a way to override the default colors of the Citizen themes? boxstyle-white-space:background-color:#FFFFFF, "may contain arbitrary wiki markup within the boxes"?
• Align terminology for language names on TG with those used by Tolkien linguists. For example Common Telerin does not mention that another name for it is Ancient Telerin, which is what sites like Eldamo and Elfdict will tend to use. Do this only so long as the term is one Tolkien used and not an original coining by a Tolkien linguist (for example Salo's Middle Sindarin). Even if there's a good argument to keep the page name something different than what the linguists tend to use, the other names should at least be listed.
  • More here.
• In Latin, cover the "insular Latin" of Farmer Giles. Wikipedia connects it to "Anglo-Latin literature", written in a Medieval Latin. Would be interesting to know if the Latin Tolkien uses in Farmer Giles is unique and associated with a uniquely British form.
• In Pengolodh, change the section "Possible erasure from the legendarium" to be more specific about what was erased (it can't have been him entirely, but could have been his relation to the Silmarillion); see Oberiko's comment in its Talk page.
• Gondorian Military Forces could use a name change, the capitalization implies a formal name used in-universe.
• Make sure the information mentioned by Oberiko here is in Gondorians; not sure if makes sense to include it in Gondor like Oberiko suggested, though.
• Tengwar mentions that the Tengwar were assigned numeric values, but doesn't make it explicit what those are. And what "alphabetic order" would be, presumably the same as those numeric values. Also, I've stumbled across Tengwar numerals (unique from the letters, so more like Arabic numerals to Latin letters than Roman numerals to Latin letters), which probably should be on the page as well.
  • The numeric values are probably those in the main image. Tinco is #1. But still, that could be made more explicit.

Pages to consider creating

Beastlike hroa

• An article about the unnamed beastlike hroa that can be created by daunting a fea out of its hroa without destroying the hroa or by daunting a fea into retreating within its hroa, or by a mortal surviving in Aman. (If not worthy of their own article, could be a section of Incarnate.) Sources: NoMe Part 2, Chapter XVII, "Death", II. Death of Incarnate Bodies; also HoMe X, "Myths Transformed", text XI, Aman and Mortal Men.
  • Might someone have already made an article about these?

Morgoth's "puppets"

• An article (or section in a preexisting article) about Morgoth's ability to reduce creatures including Men to "puppets". Source: Myths Transformed X, Orcs. It's interesting, because we never see this in action in any story, a lot like the "beastlike hroa" above. We might see a partial version of it, I think, when Glaurung taunts Mablung; isn't his voice or laugh described like Morgoth's?

Extraterrestrials in Tolkien's writings

• From Discord:

  • It could include the En-keladim on Ellor Eshurizel, the life on Green Emberu, and those crystal lifeforms on Tekel-Mirim in Notion Club Papers, as well as legendarium-proper considerations in Tolkien's writings like the Valar/Ainur who entered Ea but never entered Arda, and I think there were also legendarium-proper writings about extraterrestrial Incarnates or kelvar and olvar.
    (But I can't remember where the considerations of the latter were, either MR, WJ or NoMe, or I made it up. Maybe even notes Christopher included with the Athrabeth? I think the Athrabeth even included some considerations about what we would call a multiverse, but concluding that any such "other universes" would still be considered part of Ea.)

    (20 February 2025)
• Rough organization ideas:
  • Context, perhaps.
    • Why Tolkien was fixated on exploring the issue. (Might require finding something published in Tolkien studies.) Metaphysical implications of extraterrestrial life (or extraterrestrial spirits!), an overlooked aspect of Flat vs. Round dilemma, what it means for Arda to be the "main stage". "Dialogue" between Tolkien and C.S. Lewis's Space Trilogy, and the sci-fi stories mentioned in NCP.
      • I personally can't help but connect this to some intra-Catholic writings about extraterrestrial life, but I don't know if those discussions were happening prior to Athrabeth and NCP. I could easily imagine them happening between the Inklings. In more recent history I recall both an official Vatican statement about extraterrestrial life being an acceptable hypothesis to have while being Catholic, and the implications of it if it were discovered, and maybe also non-Vatican Catholic scholars writing about the subject, maybe there was also something about an official Vatican observatory. But it would be original research or misleading implication to cover those if there's not (1) such writings preceding the writing of Athrabeth or NCP and (2) good reason to think Tolkien was familiar with them. (And [3] academics or journalists have written about this connection.) The commonality is the idea of, "even if there is alien life, that doesn't mean humanity doesn't have a special place in God's plan", which goes with Tolkien's statement about Arda being the "central stage" or whatever, Melkor being the prime being of evil rather than just one evil being among many throughout the cosmos, and also the idea that alien sentient life may not require Salvation if they never Fell, though that's more a C.S. Lewis thing, not sure Tolkien mentioned that aspect ever.
  • Extraterrestrial spirits
    • Ainur and other spirits who come to Arda later than most
      • Tulkas, Ungoliant, spirits Melkor brings with him when he returns after the feast on Almaren
    • Ainur and other spirits who go from Arda to space for long periods of time
      • Melkor himself since he spends so much time in space; between Manwe kicking him off Arda and returning at start of First War, between First War and feast on Almaren
      • Spirits of Manwe and Varda; manir, sulimo or whatever?
      • Arien, Tilion, earlier such figures (Ilsinor?), Man-in-the-Moon, Earendil (sometimes with Elwing and Voronwe) (last are not spirits)
    • Ainur and other spirits who never come to Arda
      • This is where the interesting passages come in. They may have their own "Tales".
    • Spirits Ramer interacts with when exploring space.
      • But it's not entirely explicit these spirits are "of" outer space.
      • En-keladim?
    • Maybe also mention spirits that never entered Ea in the first place?
  • Extraterrestrial embodied beings
    • Extraterrestrial Incarnates
      • The possibility of this was mentioned in a passage; Athrabeth? Maybe also in NCP?
    • Extraterrestrial non-Incarnate living beings
      • Life on Green Emberu
  • Extraterrestrial things that seem alive but may not be
    • Growing crystals on Tekel-miram
    • Maybe Ramer's meteorite should also be considered this way? And by implication all non-living life? I wonder if these are spiritual beings, like Maiar, in pretty much everything, but that's highly speculative and connection-making.
  • If there's any material of Tolkien writing about books with aliens in them, outside the context of Notion Club Papers or other works of fiction, they could go here. Hence I titled this "Extraterrestrials in Tolkien's writings", rather than "in Tolkien's legendarium" or "in Tolkien's fiction". I guess "Tolkien and extraterrestrials" could include anything Tolkien's said about the subject on audio or in conversation...

Poisoned Mead

• Dour on Discord pointed out that this was named in The Chronology of The Lord of the Rings. The field of flowers in the Morgul Vale, the page of which should have a hyperlink to it. Created.

Language capabilities of animals

Speech capabilities of kelvar:

• Rumil knowing the language(s) of birds in BOLT
• Celegorm knowing the language(s) of birds or all animals
• Talking ravens around Erebor
• Crebain? Must they have something language-like to deliver news to Saruman? or no?
• Radagast and Gandalf's ability to speak to animals?
• Legolas talking to horses in draft of Book Three
• Idea that Eagles are animals with “pre-programmed” language-like ability
• Idea that Huor is a mere animal?
• Should distinguish normal animals speaking from things like Eagles, Huor, and Mirkwood Spiders, all of which could conceivably be Maiar, Maiar-offspring, or just not mere animals
  • And the talking ravens could also be something different, or in a middle place. Likewise with crebain.
• Probably should avoid mentioning the fox, since that could just be a description of a fox's wordless thoughts translated into language.
• Also a note on how language is what distinguishes spirits and Incarnates from kelvar and olvar, so it’s weird that you have all these examples of speaking kelvar
• …Maybe also mention the speaking stones in Hollin?

Cursory ideas

• "Tolkien's works in 1960s counterculture". Sort of "in popular culture" with a focus on that. "1960s counterculture" seems like an anodyne way of saying "hippies" that would otherwise irk many readers.
• A list of horses, both named and unnamed but easily distinguishable as specific instances of a horse (like Curufin's horse who Beren takes), maybe in the Index namespace (and maybe someone's already done this)
• Is there a page for Brian Bornmueller's The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring: Trick-Taking Game?
• An Index of cover art by language, publisher, region and year? I'm at least curious if there's a page like this on some collector's site.
  • See if www.tolkienbooks.us doesn't cover this.
• Does TG have a page all about anachronisms like Wikipedia's Anachronism in Middle-earth?
• A page about Tolkien's writing instruments. Typewriters, pens (nib-pens and ballpoint), pencils, chalk, (markers?) and what colors of those he tended to use. Brands, when known. Art supplies too.
• Category:Images of gateways, for meta purposes.

Artists to suggest or reach out to

• Should look into moving files for Tengwar, Cirth and Sarati from Wikimedia Commons to TG. Especially Sarati.
• Make a Category page for Barbara Remington, possibly upload Barbara Remington images, her map, depending on fair use.
• ttrtru/tataratarou/Sauron-centric
  • Depending on TG's stance on comic/parodic images on articles about actual legendarium subjects (as opposed to fan-stuff or parodies), I'd like to see if they'd give permission to upload his Mordor Special Mission Flying Corps art to TG.
  • However, his social media is very connected to NSFW erotica stuff, not sure how TG feels about degrees of separation with that.
• I don't think TG has Matej Cadil's Expedition to Erebor. It would be good to show the colors of the Dwarves' hair and clothes. Maybe there are other such faithful and easy-to-make out depictions of that.
• Artwork of Tolkien cats
  • I wish there was more art of Tolkien cats, and on TG. I'm not happy with the images of Tevildo that we have, in terms of images of cats I personally like. Is there an image of Tinker, the cat from Roverandom?
• Artwork of Tolkien sandcastles (or other sand art)
  • There's gotta be some fan art somewhere of a Tolkien character playing with sand at a beach, right?
    • alasse_mirimiel's "The Sandcastle", 2010. However, she hasn't updated her LiveJournal since 2020, so it would be difficult to get permission.
    • Some of Tolkien's:
      • Untitled (Two Boys at the Seaside)
        • Not uploaded.
        • This might be the most appropriate.
      • Water, Wind & Sand, 1915
        • Not uploaded.
      • The Shores of Faery, 1915
        • Uploaded.
    • Would also have expected to find people writing Tengwar in sand, but so far no.
    • Would expect some Roverandom art set on a beach, but I haven't seen any, not official, or not fan art that I appreciate.
    • There are a lot of sandcastles based on Jackson film stuff, but I'm not interested in those, at least for this purpose.
• Fan art of the unmade Lord of the Rings films.
  • It would be cool if someone drew things from the unmade movies. Like Orcs with feathers from the Zimmerman treatment, Orcs with reptilian and birdlike features from the Boorman script. The Boorman Council of Elrond. Saruman fused with the Mouth of Sauron, with a pet snake. Mole-like Dwarves. The characters in the likenesses of the actors Boorman wanted to cast.
• Check if pixel art from War in Middle-earth is on TG; ought have the War in Middle-earth balrog.
• Moe anthropomorphism of Tolkien Gateway
  • I suggest no attempt unless confident the result will be a 10/10 masterpiece.
  • A Tolkien Gateway answer to Nanami Madobe or Wikipe-tan.
  • A moe Dwarf-woman. Probably the world's only bearded female moe anthropomorphism.
  • Most OS-tan have the OS's logo as a hairclip or ribbon. The TG red wax stamp logo would work well as a hairclip. Another option might be at the neck or chest, perhaps fastening the cloak or hood together.
  • Two outfit color schemes, based on dark mode and light mode. Main outfit (based off what Dwarves wear in The Hobbit, cloak, detachable hood, belt, tassel, probably boots) is mostly navy blue, with lighter navy blues, then accents in gold (hyperlink color) and white. Light outfit is mostly white, with off-white tan, then accents in green (hyperlink) and black.
    • Forgot about "pure black mode".
  • Hair either matches the main color of the outfit, or is black, brown, yellow, or red or orange. Red or orange might not contrast well with the red wax stamp logo hairclip though. If her hair is the main color of the outfit, the gold and white or green and black can be woven through her hair as ties. (Think Jenny Dolfen's depiction of Fingon's hair tied in gold bands.)
    • "Pure black mode" gives precedent for the gold hyperlink color and white woven through black hair.
  • Often depicted holding a hammer and chisel for carving runes.
    • Maybe her favorite food could be earth-bread.
    • Smithing, with a hammer, anvil, and a dwarf-mask, could symbolize under construction.
    • Wielding an axe or hammer for battle could symbolize security issues, spam prevention.
    • The link-colored gold or green highlights (see TG colors table below) could become redlink-colored red when there's a problem for her.
      • Likewise, the gold or green highlights could change from tg-color-progressive to tg-color-progressive--hover when hovered over as an interactable image. (Or, "in-universe", when she gets an idea.)
      • The gold or green highlights can change to Discord blurple when she's doing something in relation to the Discord.
    • Does she need a "profession"? Like how Wikipe-tan is (I guess?) a maid, sweeping and stuff? If so, perhaps a doorward (a gatekeeper), stationed on the inside of the Doors of Durin. Or she could be a chiseler of Cirth into stone or calligrapher (unlike Narvi). Or maybe she could be a door-maker, like Narvi.
  • Unsure if the John Howe landscape could be factored into the design somehow, abstractly. Maybe a circlet or diadem with green, white, and dark red jewels or stones.
  • Design references:
    • logos:
      • red wax stamp logo with TG monogram
        • current
        • previous
          • Actually, it's hard to notice, but I think this is still the Home icon at the top right of Citizen. The more photo-realistic version is the Discord icon. This glossy one is more obviously also on the Vector and Timeless skins.
        • old, retro, like 2006 or something
      • gold TG monogram (seen in image when linking on Discord)
        • This could serve as a hairclip if the red wax stamp logo ought to be used elsewhere, or if she has red hair.
        • This is also used in place of the red wax stamp (alongside the yellow-orange gradient logo) on the Vector legacy and Monobook skins.
      • Tolkien Gateway cursive logo [can't find a good image file of it, but it's at the bottom of the page]
      • Tolkien Gateway yellow-to-orange gradient logo (seen in image when linking on Discord)
    • Image at top of background is "Panorama" by John Howe, originally used for the 2000 Lord of the Rings boardgame by Reiner Knizia
    • Some skins use an unlabeled version of the map, while other (more retro?) skins use a labeled version of the map.
      • Could imagine the outlines of the map being a design on her cloak or cape.
      • Not sure if these are based on General Map or West of Middle-earth.
    • Doors of Durin illustration, used at least for the Discord card.
    • Ring verse, vertically along sidebar, and rotating on Main Page.
    • Fellowship marching silhoutte, at least evokes some shots from the Jackson film, but it's hard to say where exactly this particular image and silhouette come from.
    • Kontu uses a logo for TG, the upper half of a fan-made Tree of Gondor symbol, whose ultimate origin I can't track down but goes back at least to 2013. I don't know if TG ever used it for itself.
    • Not unique to TG:
      • Double square bracket symbol ([[ ]]).
        • Could imagine incorporating into a Dwarven design or damascening.
    • site colors:

TG colors

feature	dark mode	pure black mode	light mode
tg-color-surface-0	#1A1A1F	#000	#F9F4EE
tg-color-surface-1	#1F1F24	#111	#FFFBF6
tg-color-surface-2	#23232E	#222	#F6EDE0
tg-color-surface-3	#282833	#333	#F0E3CF
tg-color-surface-4	#2C2C3C	#444	#E6D9C5
tg-color-surface-5	#313142	#555	#E3D2B8
tg-color-emphasized (use unknown)	#FBF8F1	#FBF8F1	#1A1F15
title/header	#FCF6E8	#F2F2F2	#0F1802
tg-color-base	#E4DDCF	#E4DDCF?	#2A3025
tg-color-subtle (use unknown)	#E3D2B0	#E3D2B0?	#4E5A42
colon/quote text	#C5B287	#A6A6A6	#607D36
tg-color-emphasized (use unknown) (as background)	#FBF8F1	#FBF8F1	#1A1F15
title/header (as background)	#FCF6E8	#F2F2F2	#0F1802
tg-color-base (as background)	#E4DDCF	#E4DDCF	#2A3025
tg-color-subtle (use unknown) (as background)	#E3D2B0	#E3D2B0	#4E5A42
colon/quote text (as background)	#C5B287	#A6A6A6	#607D36
tg-color-progressive	#F1C45E	#F1C45E	#507B07
tg-color-progressive--hover	#FFD16B	#FFD16B	#588418
tg-color-progressive--active	#E4B750	#E4B750	#4A710A
tg-color-inverted-progressive	#000	#000	#FFF
tg-color-progressive (as background)	#F1C45E	#F1C45E	#507B07
tg-color-progressive--hover (as background)	#FFD16B	#FFD16B	#588418
tg-color-progressive--active (as background)	#E4B750	#E4B750	#4A710A
tg-color-inverted-progressive (as background)	#000	#000	#FFF
redlink?	#FF0055	#FF0055	#CC0044
redlink (hover)?	#FF1463	#FF1463	#E0004B
redlink (as background)?	#FF0055	#FF0055	#CC0044
redlink (hover) (as background)?	#FF1463	#FF1463	#E0004B
Discord?	#5865F2	#5865F2	#5865F2
Discord (hover)?	#8891F2	#8891F2	#8891F2
sidebar icons?	#A3A3A5	#999	#64625F
sidebar icons (hover)?	#D3D3D4	#CECECE	#2E2D2C
notes	For sidebar icon black mode, I also got #989898 once, probably just a fluke. For the font colors of nonstandard namespace titles on dark mode, I got #FCF6E8, #C5B287, #E4DDCF, only the last matches anything. Likewise with dark mode, I got #0F1802, #607D36, #2A3025, only the last matches (base). Part of the title before the colon. Weird that there'd be a random HTML color I'd only find in those specific spots.

• Moe anthropomorphism continued:
  • Design references continued:
    • site colors continued:
      • Some colors I might not be able to get from inspecting the source code:
        • The grey colors of the sidebar menu icons and when you hover over them.
        • The Tolkien Gateway cursive logo might have a purer white and black than the base-emphasized-subtle colors contain?
  • A retro version whose design and outfit uses older versions of TG's design. (Like the old stamp logo.)
  • Possible wiki-sisters:
    • An Elf representing the Wiktionary-style pages.
    • A Man or Hobbit representing the File pages (that act kind of like a TG Commons).
  • Alternatively, if moe anthropomorphism is too much, a cartoon mascot version of Narvi. (Going with a Dwarf either way because of the Gateway–Doors of Durin connection, "Speak friend and edit".)
    • Could also attempt an Elvish heraldic device (circular, square or lozenge) to represent TG. Perhaps red and resembling the wax stamp logo somehow, but perhaps also/instead somehow evoking a doorway. Could imagine a doorway evoking the Door of Night or Doors of Durin with lines of some sort radiating to the edges, like the device of Beren.
  • Other alternatives:
    • based on (much less popular) Wikipedia mascots:
      • Miwiki, an ant with cartoon eyes
        • I've got nothing.
      • Wikipede, a centipede
        • I doubt you can get a similar pun. Closest I can think of is "Tolkien Gator".
        • For a multi-armed creature, maybe a Watcher in the Water, a Watcher in the Wiki. Lore-accurately, his body is never seen, only his tentacles (and maybe googly eyes from in the water). His fingered tentacles are multi-tasking, grabbing a book, typing at a computer. (By the way, check this out.)
      • Puzzly
        • ...Stampy? A stick figure with a red wax stamp head?
      • Wikimedia beetle
        • ...Those flies in the Morgai, but instead with a splotchy Red Eye on their backs, they have a splotchy red wax stamp logo.
      • Wiky
        • The red wax stamp with a face and hands.
      • Wikiou
        • The red wax stamp with Emoji-like faces.
    • not based on Wikipedia stuff:
      • That little dragon sculpture on the pillar in the "Gateway to Ithilien" background. (It also might evoke those carved dragons around the Door of Night in BOLT, a chibi version of those, as well as the sculpture presumably not based on anything in the legendarium drawn by Merri as drawn by John Howe and used by Merri in "Gateway to Ithilien".)

        • During the reign of King Elessar, a mason of Gondor built a small stone shelter in Ithilien, for those traveling into the wilderness now freed from the Shadow and its memory. Along the north of the shelter the mason constructed a gateway, looking off unto the forested horizon and western face of the Ephel Duath marching into the distance.
          
          From early childhood, the mason had dreamt of a colossal basalt Door at the edge of the World, looking out into a limitless unknown Dark beyond. Along the edges of the Door were carved great black dragons, endlessly belching black clouds. Each time, just before the dream ended, the mason saw a star pass through the Door into the void, and knew it was the Evening Star.
          
          The gateway to Ithilien was formed by two pillars, and near the top the mason carved a small winged dragon perched, its tail against the pillar. Long after the mason had left the circles of the World there the dragon remained, hailing all who passed beneath, off there or back again.

          • Was going to allude to it getting possessed by some benevolent Maia and being animate, but it doesn't really fit with how that vignette turned out. Could imagine Maiar inhabiting the dragons of the Door of Night and a "child" of them migrating into this one through the mason's dreams. I imagined it becoming a cartoon dragon made of stone. Mason could also be a Dwarf or Elf, like the ones led to Minas Tirith and Ithilien respectively by Gimli and Legolas.
          • "Gateway to Ithilien" was composed of "The Map of Tolkien's Middle-Earth - decorative border" by John Howe (maybe with some color alteration) and a mirrored section of "First Sight of Ithilien" by Ted Nasmith. The dragon grotesque was not drawn by Merri so the dragon grotesque described above would probably look different from Howe's. Originally the decorative border surrounded a Howe illustration "Descent into Rivendell". In the Nasmith illustration, we're presumably looking at the Ephel Duath from the north or northwest of them. But they're flipped so the gateway in this vignette could be looking to the "frontier".

Other

Periodization of OVOTL

• A way to categorize different periods of an "Other versions of the legendarium" sections besides just "Previous" and "Later".
  • Preferably this would be based on something already used academically, rather than something arbitrarily come up with by TG editors.
    • Mord said Christopher had one in HoMe.
  • My own cursory periodization:
    • Lost Tales... and maybe the Lays period too?
      • Lays could be in Lost Tales, or could get lumped in with Sketch to 1937 QS? Or there own thing?
    • from Sketch of the Mythology to 1937 Quenta Silmarillion
      • Sketch could go to Lost Tales or Lays?
    • during the writing of Lord of the Rings
      • but to the end of major writing, or to publication?
    • after the writing of Lord of the Rings (whichever that means), before final committment to Round World (c. 1958, 1959)
    • any divider between 1958/1959 and 1973? around 1965, 1968 maybe?
• Alternative: Categorize by work.
  • Con: You have to group different works into a similar milieu, especially very small ones that can't be treated as a world unto themselves, like the prose fragments or lays early abandoned in HoMe IV and HoMe III.
• Alternative: Categorize by decades.
  • Con: Different trends and eras of Tolkien's writings don't fit cleanly into decades.

Shared universes in adaptations

• Categorize adaptations by their shared universes? Like how Shadow of Mordor is explicitly set within the Peter Jackson films' world.
  • It might not always be clear what adaptations share a universe, or even if the creators of each adaptation had a clear intent of such. And what's going on with Rings of Power and its relation to the Jackson films?
  • Design a navbox based on this principle, and/or just a "Peter Jackson films" navbox including spinoffs with this in mind.

Questions about what shared universes adaptations belong to

Questions

The Lord of the Rings: Middle-earth Defense (app)	Is this in the "Jacksonverse"? Yes, Jacksonverse.
Guardians of Middle-earth	Is this in the Jacksonverse? Yes, Jacksonverse, noted to feature characters from The Hobbit, with the Jackson film title font.
Tales of the Shire	Is this in the Jacksonverse? It's from Weta Digital, so I'd expect it to be. Art style is different, but so is Aragorn's Quest, which I'd expect to be Jacksonverse. (Wikipedia seems to assume it's Jacksonverse, but I don't see anything in the Talk page or anything saying why. The "The Lord of the Rings" in the subtitle might be that "Ringbearer" font the Jackson material uses, but I'm not sure.)
Aragorn's Quest	Is it though? Yeah, "Aragorn's Quest" title font looks funky, but Jackson film title font is there for "Lord of the Rings".
Riot-E games	(Forces of Light and Darkness, Journeys of the Fellowship, Battle of Middle-earth, cancelled Mines of Moria) Related to Jacksonverse, maybe? Very obscure. Yes, as long as the images on this IGN list of Middle-earth games are right. A mobile text-based game released a month or so before FOTR. Hard to find any info on these at all, I wonder if they're archived in any way.
Lord of the Rings musical (2006)	Is this Jacksonverse? I'd expect no. But it's ME Enterprises, Paul Zaentz?
Rings of Power (Amazon)	I'm sure there's a lot of discussion over whether or not it's Jacksonverse, if it's trying to be Jacksonverse despite legally having not to, probably a lot of possibilities.
Amazon MMORPG	Are they planning this to tie into Rings of Power? Logo used on that IGN list doesn't tell me much, other than "maybe no". Doubt they'd want to pin things into the Second Age anyway, if there were connections it would just be Easter eggs... like you could find that Harfoot star-chart book in a Shire mathom-house, or something.
Older cancelled Amazon MMORPG	Do we know if this was connected to anything else? (Also, was this for sure a separate project than the current one?)
Cancelled Middle-earth Online game	Was it intended to be Jacksonverse? Looks like this was by Sierra, and then by Turbine, and under Turbine became LOTRO. Who knows though if any version was ever intended to be different IP-/milieu-wise than LOTRO ended up being.
The Lord of the Rings: War of the Ring	Was this supposed to share a universe with the Jacksonverse? Or the Hobbit game? Or the Fellowship of the Ring game? Or LOTRO later? Probably none of those. Apparently it evokes Ralph Bakshi films in a few places, also goes for a Warcraft-like visual style. Title font vaguely reminds me of the FOTR game but that's probably a coincidence.
The Hobbit videogame	Was this supposed to share a universe with the Fellowship of the Ring game? Or War of the Ring? Or LOTRO later? (I see no evidence for any of that.)
LOTRO	Was this supposed to share a universe with anything else?
Daedelic's Gollum game	Seems to have a similar have-cake-and-eat-it-too that Amazon's Rings of Power has?
Heroes of Middle-earth	Jacksonverse at all? Any other works? Or does it exist all unto itself, just with the Tolkien source material? (Also, if not already noted, should cite a review or something to establish that it was made in the vein of Star Wars: Galaxy of Heroes. This and that were made by EA Capital Games.)
Return to Moria	Connected to anything? Probably not. Seems in the same straight-from-the-books,-but-evokes-Jackson-because-you-have-to-marketing-wise mode as Gollum, Tales from the Shire.
Iron Crown Enterprise stuff	Is there an official connection between their Hobbit boardgame and adventure stuff and the later MERP? What about Play-by-Mail, ME Games? And the Adventure Game or whatever, and the two Quest things.
J.R.R. Tolkien's Riders of Rohan	Is this connected to J.R.R. Tolkien's War in Middle Earth? Or the Software Adventures/Beam Software games? No similarity to War in Middle-earth. It is Beam Software, but all the other Beam Software games are text adventures like Zork. The four text adventures (1 Hobbit, 3 LOTR) all seem to go together though.
The Lord of the Rings: Journey to Rivendell, Parker Brothers	?
The Hobbit: A 3-D Pop-Up Adventure Book	Connected to anything? Rankin-Bass films? This is John Howe art, actually, and lists J.R.R. Tolkien as the author; I don't know how much of the novel is in the pop-up adventure book?
Mithril Miniatures	Is this based off Jacksonverse, or anything in particular besides Tolkien directly? Seems to have been (at least mostly?) MERP.
'55-'56 LOTR and '68 Hobbit BBC radio plays	Were these considered part of a continuous "project" at least? (I see no evidence for that.)
'81 BBC radio play and '92 Perilous Realm radio play	Was Perilous Realm meant to exist in the same world as the '81 version, to be a "sequel" or "interquel"? Both are Brian Sibley productions, and the Adventures of Tom Bombadil parts of the latter pick up for having skipped Tom Bombadil in the '81 production. (I'm also curious if the 1987 "Adventures of Frodo" might connect to either.)
'79 Mind's Eye radio plays	Are these two part of the same project?
Rod Inglis stuff

Without going through everything myself, a few indicators are:

• Does the title of the work use the same font unique to the Peter Jackson film titles? I could kind of see a non-Jacksonverse work getting away with using it, but I'd be surprised.
• Does it use something unique to the Jacksonverse, like Barad-dur being topped by a tuning fork with a giant red electric plasma eye within it?
  • Again, a non-Jacksonverse thing could maybe get away with that; Rings of Power used extremely similar armor for Sauron, didn't it? (But that armor comes from John Howe art, preexisting the Jackson films, doesn't it?) Or the design of the balrog?
  • With Daedelic's Gollum case, Gollum is clearly supposed to look like Serkis's Gollum, but different enough, and on the other hand their Mouth of Sauron looks like he can't quite exist in the same universe as Jackson's does. There's a Jacksonesque Eye of Sauron on the cover, but what I think is their Barad-dur looks very different, maybe just red without a literal eye.
• Lastly, is the same company or a common individual behind it? But that might be least helpful, see the Zaentz case with the Toronto musical.
• What would be most clear is if something specifically says it's based on the films, but I don't know if that's ever happened for any of the questionable cases that need such clarification in the first place.

Wikipedia's article List of Middle-earth video games divides all the games into "based on the novels" and "based on the films", but I don't know if they've conclusively cited a reason to include Tales of the Shire as based on the films. And the mobile, browser, and cancelled games are not sorted that way. And I don't know what they would do if a game were based on a non-Jackson adaptation, like if a Rings of Power game were announced.

Comprehensive guide to Tolkien's languages, with all names used for each of them

• Find (or... make?) a comprehensive, "standardized" list of names for Tolkien's languages and dialects.
  • From the Discord:

    • There are so many names for languages and dialects, and it's hard to know when two names represent unique languages or dialects, or unique phases of languages or dialects across Tolkien's development of them, or are just synonyms for the same language. Are Old Q(u)enya and Archaic Quenya the same thing? Is Primitive Eldarin the same as Primitive Quendian or something between Primitive Quendian and Common Eldarin? Is Doriathrin (say specifically at the time of writing The Etymologies of HoMe V) a dialect of Ilkorin, or an (in-universe) archaic/preserved form of Ilkorin, or a separate cousin-language to Ilkorin? If I see a root symbol, or an asterisk in The Etymologies, is that always referring to a Primitive Quendian reconstruction, or could it be referring to say Common Eldarin or Old Telerin depending on context? Is what elfdict labels "Ancient quenya" distinct from Common Eldarin? Are all these labels from Tolkien or have Tolkien linguists made their own labels in some cases?
      Not asking anyone to answer each of these questions, just illustrating how confusing it is, thinking about how it would be nice to find a comprehensive guide on every name that's been used for each language and dialect by Tolkien and across the history of scholarship. Maybe that already exists.

      (15 February 2025)
  • I've made some progress on this with the language navbox ideas above.
  • Note also overlapping acronyms, like PQ for both Primitive Quendi/Quenderin and Parmaquesta. (Though not sure if Tolkien used the acronym for both.)

Mapping real world locations

• Some project with a real map of the world, Google Maps/Earth maybe.
  • Real locations in Tolkien's fiction turned into pins. (Like in Roverandom, Lost Road, NCP, Aelfwine locations, also locations of non-fictional events used in his fiction, like Maldon.) Also locations in Tolkien's biography, South Africa, places he's lived and vacationed in British Isles, placed he's traveled in Europe, WWI. Then maybe locations related to adaptations, filming locations, where film or game studios are related, locations of fan clubs and stuff. You can toggle these different categories of locations on and off.
  • Hyarion has started a project like this, see 20 Northmoor Road.
    • Is there a place on TG where you can look at all the Google Maps pins placed by TG? And could you then toggle on and off different sets of pins by their classification?

Locations that could be pins on Google Maps

Real-world locations

Notion Club Papers
Oxford	also a Lost Tales location via Taruithorn
Turl	was this a street?
High	was this a street?
Radcliffe Square
Radcliffe Camera
St. Mary's	?
Pembroke College
Jesus College
Wadham College
Lincoln College
Queen's College
All Souls College
Corpus Christi College
Trinity College
St. John's College
New College
University College
Exeter College
Magdalen College
Examination college	maybe not a geographical location, just an administrative body?
East School
Penian	was this something fictional? can't find anything searching online
Penbrokeshire
Severn River
Bristol Channel	Severn Sea (Severn-mouth)
Somerset
Porlock
Porlock Weir
Isle of Athelney	?
Culbone
Flatholme	or Flat Home; probably "Broad Relic" in NCP
Wessex
Archenfield	in Herefordshire
Devon	"Devenish land"
North Devon
Watchet
Gunthorpe Park	where there's a (fictional) meteorite
Land's End	in Cornwall
Bideford
South Wales	?
Arundel	in Sussex, maybe just a false etymology of Arundel, "harhun-dell"
London
Buckingham
Glastonbury
Tamworth	something to do with Mercian kings? also according to Tom Shippey the Middle Kingdom's capital "20 miles distant from Ham" in Farmer Giles
Mercia	is this also West Midlands? also the Middle Kingdom in Farmer Giles
Mull	in Scotland
Galway
Aran Isles
Clonfert	related to St. Brendan
Lough Derg	in Shannon
Loughrea
Brandon Hill
Slieve League
Iceland
Papey or Vestmannaeyjar	no; there's no specific place where we know Christian monks settled within Iceland, but if there was one you could've marked it to supplement what Christopher writes in NCP (or was it Lost Road?)
Azores	some relation to the Straight Road? also in (or only in) Lost Road? (could also maybe cite Airyyn on Numenore being near modern-day Azores, or rather Didier Willis who he cited, and maybe also Fonstad)
Hungary
Finland
Norway	because of mention of Northmen?
Jutland	also the kingdom of Niðung (associated with Melko by Tolkien) in the Þiðreks saga, but I know of no indication that the same connection was made in Tolkien's version of the story with Velindo
Denmark
Angeln/Angol/Anglia	because of Angles (also in Lost Tales, Eriol's home (Eoh's castle) is in Anglia?)
Sweden
Frisia
Saxony
Swabia
Black Forest? Dnieper River? Carpathian Mountains? elsewhere?	can Mirkwood/Mircwudu/Myrkvidr this be tied to a particular real-world region? Tolkien wrote that Mirkwood was based on Myrkvidr, which probably corresponded to the southern boundaries of Germanic lands, but I don't know where he would've placed those southern boundaries, whether or not it aligns with the Ukrainian location Wikipedia says is Myrkvidr's most likely origin; a map there includes a Black Forest and a Blue Forest along the Dnieper, though I wouldn't be surprised if Tolkien imagined Myrkvidr to be around the present-day Black Forest in Germany?
United States	Atomic Reservation stuff
Spain	was Spanish or Spain mentioned? was there a Spanish NC member?
Italy	Italian language mentioned? was there an Italian NC member?
Table Mountain, South Africa	why was this mentioned?
China	I think just referred to a few times as an example of foreignness, or to compare Chinese and Japanese to Numenorean languages
Madagascar	a joke about Ramer being Magyar
Tamil region	Tamil language was mentioned in discussion, about a false cognate in Tamil between "popol" and words for people (could he have got Tamil mixed up with Quiché? and did Tolkien compare this Tamil or Quiché word with English or with Italian?)
New Hebrides (Vanuatu)	a language from there mentioned in discussion, about a false cognate in a New Hebrides language between "mare" and English "male" (was never able to get a lead on what New Hebridean language this would have been; it was New Hebrides, right? not Papuan? I did wonder about Bislama, but it's a creole, and so a correspondence shouldn't have been surprising and probably wouldn't be a false cognate)
Lost Road locations not repeated in Notion Club Papers
not sure if there are any (real ones)
Cornwall (generally)	wasn't Alboin's seaside childhood home in Cornwall? also vaguely remembering some similarity between Alboin's mother and Aelfwine's mother, being Cornish or Welsh? NCP has Land's End but worth mapping Cornwall generally
Vinland	I think this was mentioned for a Viking story; would have to be Vinland generally, if that can be pinned, instead of anything more specific like L'Anse aux Meadows
any specific locations mentioned in talk of Alboin and Audoin of the Lombards?
real-world locations in Aelfwine stories not repeated in Lost Road or Notion Club Papers
not sure; was Aelfwine's hometown a real place? (Warwick, Kortirion again.)	in the version where his father was Deor?
Heligoland?
real-world locations in Lost Tales
Babylon (archaeological)	Bablon mentioned by Littleheart
Nineveh (archaeological)	Ninwi mentioned by Littleheart
Troy (archaeological)	Trui mentioned by Littleheart
Rome (archaeological)	"Rumhoth"
Germany	"Kalimban"
Mediterranean Sea	Inland Sea (The Book of Lost Tales)
Africa?	"Salkinore"; redundant to pin a continent on Google Maps, probably, but you can do this; the coordinates it placed the pin on seemed pretty random for me, though
Scandinavia	"Ponorir"
Warwick	Kortirion
Warwickshire	Alalminore
Great Haywood	Tavrobel
Sow	Afros?
Trent	Gruir?
Essex Bridge?	Tram Nybol?
Gipsy Green?	Fladweth Amrod?
Cheltenham	Celbaros
Exeter	Estirin
can "Lionesse" be given a specific location on Google Maps?	see Evadrien
Roos?	can the Ros of Lost Tales be related to the Roos where Tolkien saw Edith dance? (and there are two, one is a promontory on the Great Lands, another is a location on or synonymous with Eressea)
Withernsea?	Tol Withernon
Brittany?	someone suggested this was the Ros of Lost Tales? also wasn't "Broceliand" a name for Brittany in real-life? "Broseliand" is later than Lost Tales, though. Broceliande.
Connected to Lord of the Rings locations in Tolkien's writings
Ravenna	Minas Tirith
Venice	Pelargir
Assisi	Lossarnach
Cyprus	Tolfalas; not noted by Tolkien, but in that essay of Airyyn's the resemblance in an early map to Cyprus is noted
Cambrian Mountains	Blue Mountains; not noted by Tolkien as far as I'm aware, but it seems likely that Forlindon is modeled after Wales, Blue Mountains after Cambrian Mountains, Gulf of Lhun after Bristol Channel, River Lhun after Severn, and Harlindon South West England
Wales	Forlindon?
Bristol Channel	Gulf of Lhun?
Severn River	River Lhun?
South West England	Harlindon?
Dumnonia?	A Tolkien Society article "A Walk Along the River Lhun" insists it was important to Tolkien (Devon, Cornwall and Somerset, centered in Devon), and u/Alfgar232 says a Geraint, King of Dumnonia would have been familiar to Tolkien, a possible inspiration of "Gerontius"
Other Tolkien fictional
real locations mentioned in Father Christmas Letters
...north magnetic pole and/or north geomagnetic pole?	probably not conclusive that this is where the FCL North Pole is?
East Anglia	earliest version of The Man in the Moon Came Down Too Soon was "an East Anglian Phantasy"
Norwich?	rhymes with "porridge", in the nursery rhyme, I'm not sure if it's in Tolkien's "East Anglian Phantasy" version
Brittany	Lay of Aotrou and Itroun
Isle of Dogs, London	a punning reference to it in Roverandom
Snowdon	Arthurian reference in Roverandom
Cowley, Oxford?	connected to The End of Bovadium via William Norris, 1st Viscount Nuffield's motor-works and the Daemon of Vaccipratum
River Thames	in Farmer Giles
River Thame	in Farmer Giles
River Cherwell	in Farmer Giles
River Glyme	in Farmer Giles
River Windrush	in Farmer Giles
Thame, Oxfordshire	Tame, in Farmer Giles; not sure if it's also Ham, that seems to be the case in Pauline Baynes's map, but in the Wikipedia map by Chiswick Chap Ham is on the other side of the Windrush
Oakley, Buckinghamshire	Quercetum in Farmer Giles; but the Baynes map and Wikipedia map disagree on where it is, Baynes has it on the north side of the River Thame, Wikipedia has it south of the village of Thame; real Oakley is north of the River Thame
Worminghall, Buckinghamshire	Aula Draconaria and Worminghall in Farmer Giles
Kingdom of Gwynedd (historical)	Venedotia in Farmer Giles
Frithuwald's Surrey	can't find on Google Maps, not sure if this is in that Oxfordshire region or inspired the Little Kingdom in some other way; there are some locations associated with Frithwald
Oxfordshire	general setting of Farmer Giles (Little Kingdom), along with Buckinghamshire
Buckinghamshire	general setting of Farmer Giles (Little Kingdom), along with Oxfordshire
Thames Valley	general setting of Farmer Giles
Farthinghoe, West Northamptonshire	Farthingho in Farmer Giles
Otmoor	in Farmer Giles
?	Wild Hills in Farmer Giles? is there a particular location those are based on?
Rollright Stones	Standing Stones in Farmer Giles
Islip, Oxfordshire	in Farmer Giles
Wootton, Vale of White Horse	Vale of White Horse in Farmer Giles; there are like 21 Woottons in England, so avoid any temptation to connect this to Woottons Major or Minor
Historical-fictional (or translations, which maybe should be their own category)
Maldon	in Essex, by River Blackwater, maybe the particular battlefield has a location
Finnsburg?	Finn and Hengest; I don't know if Finnsburg is an exactly-known location
real locations mentioned in Beowulf?
real locations mentioned in Tale of Kullervo?	might be worth noting somewhere that at different times people have associated the land of Kalevala with Southern Finland and Pohjola with Lapland or later Kalevala with Estonia and Pohjola with Finland and Karelia
real locations mentioned in King Arthur stuff Tolkien wrote?
real locations mentioned in Sigurd and Gudrun stuff?
what was the location of Sir Orfeo? did a real location replace Thrace or was it a fictional Celtic location? (Winchester.)	Winchester, in Wessex, called Traciens (Thrace) in the story, according to Wikipedia
Närke	featured in the Völundarkviða, the kingdom of Níðuðr, Niðad in a Velindo story from Tolkien, a version of Melko connected to real-world myth, though the Tolkien story probably doesn't allude to Närke
Zealand	I think this might be the island of Sævarstöð in the Völundarkviða? that's my own best guess; similarly I'm not aware of any indication this showed up in Tolkien's Lost Tales era version of the story
Tolkien biographical
Bank House/Bank of Africa, Maitland Street, Bloemfontein	one and the same with where the Tolkiens lived?
Cathedral of St. Andrew and St. Michael
President Brand graveyard	Arthur Tolkien's grave
Birmingham
Sarehole (Mill), Hall Green/Worcestershire, Birmingham	childhood home
King Edward's School
Moseley (Bog)
Buckingham Palace	as a child for a parade and as an adult receiving awards or titles
St Philip's Grammar School
Rednal	something about Lickeys? Lickey Hills? and not to be confused with Bednall in Staffordshire, near Gipsy Green
Birmingham Oratory
37 Duchess Road, Edgbaston
London
Switzerland	1911 trip
Interlaken
Lauterbrunnen
morained beyond Murren
Jungfrau
Silberhorn
Kleine Scheidegg
Grindelwald
Grosse Scheidegg
Meiringen
Grimsel Pass
upper Valais
Brig
Aletsch Glacier
Zermatt
Barnt Green, Worcestershire
Paris	1913, trip guiding Mexican family
Dinard, Brittany	1913, same trip
Oxford
Exeter College
Lichfield	something military related
Rugeley Camp, Staffordshire	military related
St Mary's Catholic Church, Warwick	something to do with Edith?
Somme?	where he was in the Battle of the Somme?
Cheltenham
Great Haywood, Staffordshire
Gipsy Green, near Penkridge in Staffordshire
Stonyhurst	associated with a drawing of Tolkien's
Swanwick's?	associated with Tolkien's drawing of a fish someone caught?
Roos
Thirtle Bridge, East Yorkshire
University of Leeds
5 Holly Bank
11 St. Mark's Terrace
2 Darnley Road
Pembroke College, Oxford
22 Northmoor Road, Oxford
Magdalen College, Oxford	C.S. Lewis rather than Tolkien
The Eagle and Child, Oxford	Inklings meetingplace
20 Northmoor Road
Lamorna Cove, Cornwall	1932 vacation, Tolkien came up with the name "Gaffer Gamgee"
Filey in Yorkshire	vacation inspiring Roverandom
British Academy	where he delivered Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics
Cherwell Edge girl's hostel	early readers of The Hobbit
Merton College, Oxford
Payables Farm, Woodcote
University of St. Andrews	where he delivered "On Fairy-stories"
Holywell Street
76 Sandfield Road, Headington
University of Glasgow	Sir Gawain and the Green Knight lecture
National University of Ireland	maybe he never visited, but they gave him an honorary something
University of Liege	maybe he never visited
Stoke-on-Tent
Bournemouth	Tolkien and Edith spent holidays there before moving there, or near there
Woodridings in Branksome, Poole near Bournemouth
modern bungalow in Poole, Dorset?	might be the above or below entry?
21 Merton Street, Merton College
Wolvervote Cemetery	grave site
any particular place in Ireland Tolkien traveled to?
same question about Wales?
same question about Cornwall?
same question about Scotland?
same question about Belgium?
same question about Netherlands?
same question about Italy?
Venice?
Assisi?
Bodleian Library	location of his notes
Marquette University	location of his notes; specifically Raynor Memorial Library? or just Marquette University Libraries?

For the larger regions it might be misleading to pin modern locations. Pinning West Midlands specifically for Mercia, or the modern region of Scandinavia for Ponorir, or the modern nation of Germany for the historical notion of Germany that Kalimban would reflect, or even more recently Hall Green or Worcestershire for whatever the district of Sarehole was when Tolkien grew up there, may not accurately reflect what the medieval or classical definitions of that region were. Maybe in some cases Google Maps will be able to reflect that.

Examples of the Maps extension used for fictional Middle-earth maps?

I should find one.

Map of where landmarks can be seen from where

• Brought this up to DTP. If you had all occurrences where a character can see a distant landmark, you with a few assumptions (like which distances of Thangorodrim to Menegroth apply, whether the world is flat or not) could place pins on maps of Beleriand or the Westlands or Ambarkanta, with arrows reaching to other pins. Character doing the seeing, direction, distance, landmark being seen. For example, Turin on Amon Rudh, looking and seeing Amon Obel, maybe the Narog, can't remember all of it. Character pins and arrows can be color-coded by whether or not the seer is mortal, and whether or not there might be a spiritual enhancement at play. This way of viewing it is inspired by the American Meteor Society's Report a Fireball website.
• The goal would be to get a general idea of what can be seen from where, roleplayers at least could get a use out of that, might also tell you things about heights of things if you made some assumptions. Also to figure out if Tolkien wound up with a realistic depiction of human sight limits.

Fan-made maps of older versions of the legendarium

An attempt to map settings from periods that Tolkien and Christopher did not map. For example, the Great Lands of the Book of Lost Tales Tale of Tinuviel. Where is Angamandi, Tevildo's castle, and the Withered Dale in relation to Hisilome, the Bitter Hills, the Forest of Night, and Artanor? Are the Iron Mountains/Bitter Hills on both sides of Hisilome, north and south? Or, a map that depicts earlier locations of the Stony Ford, in the Book of Lost Tales Nauglafring tale. I think those stories precede the stories that The First 'Silmarillion' Map (map) depicts. These could bridge the missing links in the changing shapes of the world, help people understand the flow from early to mature visions.

Possible maps:

• A map of Earendel's voyages in the prose notes to one of the early Earendel poems; it mentioned the Red Sea, I think.
• A version of The earliest map with added labels and details that can be confidently inferred.
  • The things from the original map and the additions could differ by color. Likewise for these other maps, where they're based on existing ones.
• Early Lost Tales map, like described above with Tevildo's castle, Hisilome perhaps extending across the whole north rather than only the northwest and the Forest of Night outside of it to the east, if I'm remembering Lost Tales correctly.
• Expansion of The First 'Silmarillion' Map (map).
• Tolkien's final Silmarillion map, with educated additions.
  • Stuff from the Maeglin maps, but also stuff Tolkien described that was never drawn anywhere.
• Something incorporating the shape of northern Aman in that map sketch found in The Tales Never End.
• Ambarkanta-style maps depicting the whole of Ambar/Imbar, but versions of it described before and after the Ambarkanta III, IV and V maps were drawn.
  • Things like a region of Eruman in the east, Murmenalda, the Last Desert, Mesopotamia being mentioined (I think in Drowning of Anadune?), Man on an island during heavy rains in Myths Transformed.
  • Also a "full" Ambarkanta map with detailed locations "grandfathered in" to the map in NoMe Part Three I think Ch. 1. The one with the canal separating west and east poles from a circular Middle-earth.
• A "variorum" of Beleriand and the lands to its north, layering much of the above on top of each other.

A bunch of questions about style and formatting when it comes to references

• See User:Yaulendil/Timeline ideas#General (formatting)

Thoughts on and preparations for sub-referencing

• From Discord:

  • For a while I was editing the Timeline pages, making corrections and adding references. To prevent too many duplicate refs from making the References section overlong, I used Template:Rp. Then I stopped, disappointed that my use of {{rp}} made things less readable, because I wanted to include both page numbers and the number of the note or commentary on that page. The simple solution would've been to just stick with page or paragraph numbers, but I wanted the {{rp}} to have as much specificity as a full ref in the References section would've.
    
    I searched around and found out about sub-referencing: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WMDE_Technical_Wishes/Sub-referencing. It was recommended by the guy who wrote Template:Reference page on Wikipedia. Wikimedia has been beta-testing this for a while, planned to have it ready by the end of 2024, said they were going ahead with it at the start of this February (https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:WMDE_Technical_Wishes/Sub-referencing#Moving_forward_with_sub-referencing), but I can't tell if there's a known update date for it. Apparently in the meantime it can be enabled as an experimental feature (https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Cite#Configuration). If TG wanted to enable that, I could test it out on the Timeline pages. However, I don't know if that will require changes once the final version is released, and sub-referencing had "mixed reactions".
    
    I also made my own expanded version of Template:Rp, User:Yaulendil/Template/Rp expanded. The gist is that mine uses a tooltip like Wikipedia's Template:Reference page does, but where that only uses a tooltip for quotations, mine uses for extra specifics beyond page or paragraph number. There's a lot more to it. I can see it being objectionable, just because I've never seen other wikis use anything similar. And I'm sure the code (entirely in parser functions) is a mess. I could turn it into a proper template in the template namespace and use it in the Timeline articles, but only if someone looked it over to make sure it won't crash the wiki, or cause browser compatibility issues or something. The subpage explains the uses and rationale of it.
    
    If nobody wants to use sub-referencing, I could use my template, maybe naming it Template:Rpex. If it isn't hazardous, I could use it for the limited cases I think the Timeline pages call for, as a makeshift, and improve the template later. But don't hesitate to veto all these ideas if you think you should.

    (4 March 2025)

  • I tested sub-references out on just the Annals of Aman refs in Timeline/First Age. A little report:
    
    The Cite extension (assuming that was how sub-refs were enabled) allows me to use the method described at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WMDE_Technical_Wishes/Sub-referencing#How_it_works, which describes itself as "the *old wikitext syntax*, and uses an extends attribute. It was replaced by what's described at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:WMDE_Technical_Wishes/Sub-referencing#Request_for_feedback, which uses a details attribute. I can't immediately tell if the latter is available to use. Unless they change their minds I'm guessing the latter will look closer to the final version, so I'll have to change the current wikitext if I use the sub-refs we have now.
    
    As far as I can tell, the sub-refs require one main reference to be present. They expect you to put this main ref in the References section with <references> ... </references> syntax, and I don't know how to make that work with the {{references}} template. For now I placed the main ref before the first sub-ref. The newer version with the details attribute seems not to need main refs.
    
    I like the look of the footnote links ([2.1], [2.2] ... [2.73]), but I wish the tooltips would show the main ref material *combined with* the appended sub-ref material. As it is a reader will have to click the footnote link, scroll up to the main reference to see which work a given "§123" is in, instead of knowing just from the tooltip. I can't tell if the newer details version does what I want, they only show how it works with a screenshot.
    
    To prevent sub-refs from duplicating, I need to name a sub-ref and reuse the name. It sounds like the details version bunches repeat sub-refs automatically.
    
    Wikimedia's examples bunch repeat sub-refs with letters (a b c), while TG bunches with further decimals (2.25.0 2.25.1 2.25.2).
    
    A longer and uglier References section will be a price of better readability in the article itself. The sub-refs of the Annals of Aman form a tall thin tower of mostly paragraph numbers. Wish it would form itself into two columns but oh well.
    
    A link to the version of the article at the time I wrote the above notes, in case someone reads them after I make further edits: https://tolkiengateway.net/w/index.php?title=Timeline/First_Age&oldid=419350

    (5 March 2025)

  • Finishing up observations from [Discord message link] and [other Discord message link]:
    
    The newer version that uses the details attribute instead of extends has the editor put wikitext within the details attribute, including parts of a template. Using a TG example (comparing to https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:WMDE_Technical_Wishes/Sub-referencing#Request_for_feedback), I think this might look like <ref name="AA" details="{{AA details |1=131}}">{{AA}}</ref> and then later <ref name="AA" details={{AA details |1=131 |2=n}}" /> or <ref name="AA" details={{AA details |1=132}}" />. I don't know if something like <ref name="AA" details="{{|1=131}}">{{AA}}</ref> would work, or <ref name="AA" details="{{AA |1=131}}">{{AA}}</ref>, and I don't yet understand if this requires setting up a new {{AA details}} template or if the attribute just always knows that {{X details}} is an instruction to work with the {{X}} template.
    
    I'm also not yet sure if including parameters in the main reference like <ref name=AA" details="{{AA details |1=131 |2=n}}">{{AA|1=131}}</ref> would work, and if it did, if you could drop the |1=131 from the details. Seems impossible to work if you don't identify unnamed parameters by number (|1=, |2=).
    
    Putting template wikitext into an attribute was apparently one of the things that got sub-references mixed reviews. So (according to https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:WMDE_Technical_Wishes/Sub-referencing#Moving_forward_with_sub-referencing) when sub-referencing is implemented, at first we won't be able to use templates in the details attribute as in the above paragraph, and that will only be allowed in test cases. I kind of wish we could, because as in the above paragraph's example I could rely on the {{AA}} template's first parameter to include the ยง symbol instead of writing it each time, or carry out more complicated or time-saving things.
    
    Another difference with the details-version is that you can't name sub-refs, as I did with the extends-version. You have to write out the details each time, even though they're the same. But that inconvenience is outweighed by how these duplicates will automatically be grouped together in the References section as re-uses.
    
    The changes from the extends-version to the details-version seem to be for the sake of using sub-refs on the VisualEditor. Something to do with extends-version relying on placing refs in <references> tags, when most wikis use {{reflist}} (or in our case I guess {{references}}), which you can't edit in VisualEditor. Hopefully that means that if I can work with the details-version, I don't have to worry about where to put the main ref. (I had to resort to putting a [2] before [2.1], a [4] before [4.1].)
    
    Using {{Cite DTP}} with sub-references is a little awkward. Normally the sub-refs will cut off the leading parts of the refs that are common between the main ref and all the sub-refs. I don't see how that's possible with {{Cite DTP}}. If the main ref is (S QS) J.R.R. Tolkien, The Silmarillion, "Quenta Silmarillion", you can't have a sub-ref with a hyperlink "button" of (.03) instead of (S QS.03), or even if you always wanted to include the full hyperlink "button" you can't have a sub-ref with just "Of the Coming of the Elves" after it. All sub-refs do for {{Cite DTP}} refs is bunch them together, which is a benefit, but still needlessly repeats information. A solution might be to add an optional parameter like |end=, similar to some ideas I had in User:Yaulendil/Template/Rp expanded (search for "dtp-end"). But that wouldn't work until they figure out templates within the details attribute anyway.
    
    A weird quirk with the current extends-version is two separate refs have the same label. For reference 23, there are two refs 23.1, one is a re-use of the main ref, the other is the first and only sub-ref of 23. Not sure if the details-version will have that problem.
    
    To specify what's ugly about the References section with sub-refs, I wish the Grey Annals sub-refs would wrap vertically onto the righthand column, to make the lefthand and righthand columns even. I don't know if that's determined by the Cite extension, or how TG's formatting of Notes and References sections is set up.
    
    Likewise I don't know if the tooltip window issue (the tooltip window of an inline sub-ref showing only the unique details, and not the main ref plus the unique details) is a matter of the Cite extension or how TG automatically handles it. That's probably the thing that disappointed me the most. I don't know if the details-version will do the same, but if it does maybe it can be "improved" on TG's end.
    
    Sorry if these posts are too long, I won't be surprised if no one else sees sub-refs as potentially useful. But just in case, I wanted them somewhere public.

    (16 March 2025)

Other ideas

• Does TG have a specific policy on whether to use American or British English? Do any editors or pages use British English routinely? I would expect that just most editors are American, or at least non-British, and so it would be more work to "correct" American English to British English than to just let the standard be American. But I could see arguments from consistency with the source material and a sort of sentimentalism to use British English. (What does Hostetter use in NoMe?)
  • Akhorahil's edits changing "defense" to "defence" point out the Manual of Style does recommend British spelling. I must've looked for that before, yet somehow missed it.

Infographic ideas

Timeline evolution infographics

• Generate bar-shaped timelines from the years of various iterations of the timeline. Important years show up as lines along the bars, and/or inverted triangles at the tops of those lines. Lines, probably diagonal unless they occur at the same time as in a previous timeline bar, connect the events where they occurred in a previous timeline bar to where they occur in the next. The steepness of the diagonal lines can give an intuitive sense of how much the timeline "stretches" as Tolkien works through them, and diagonal lines will cross where the order of events changes (for example, if Tolkien switches from having the Great March begin after the Chaining of Melkor to before).
  • The bars could all be aligned at YT 1.
  • Could do this just for the various timelines in Part 1 of NoMe.
  • Could do it just for the various timelines YS 490 onwards from Scheme A of Tale of Years to Scheme D and Wanderings of Hurin.
  • Could include a Lost Tales timeline in an across-the-whole-history view, but the length of the bar would have to be arbitrary since there are no "Annals of the Lost Tales"; still worth it to show the reordering of things like Melko being Unchained before the Finding of the Elves.
    • When choosing an arbitrary size for an undated timeline bar, just use the next or previous dated bar’s size. Next in case of BOLT timelines, previous in case of… The Fall of Numenor, for example. Oh, but Fall of Numenor might be pre-Earliest Annals of Beleriand, right? And it’s an extension of a previous bar, so…
• This has some general design overlap with a project Hyarion already had going, see Template:Timeline, it looks nice.

Annals evolution infographics

• Each annal in each of the Annals is represented as a "card", and you can see which annals became which in subsequent versions, organized either by the annals so you can see how they changed regardless of where they moved to by year, or organized by years and you'd use arrows to track the course of the text and ideas. Might work better as an interactive thing than an infographic.
  • A complete infographic might have too much info to be worth making.
  • I wonder if Arda Reconstructed has done most of the work in determining which chunks of which annals led to each other.

Languages evolution (in- and out-of-universe) infographics

• Multiple trees of tongues, both the three charts made by Tolkien in the Lhammas and ones based on his descriptions of languages' relations, arrayed left to right, left being the oldest (Early Period, Lost Tales), right being the latest (Last Writings, whatever changes were introduced then). Languages that have known words can be unitalicized, languages that don't (and might not even have names) can be italicized. Some difference to show whether the charts/trees are directly lifted from Tolkien's charts, or constructed by what his writings say the relations are. The charts/trees have oldest languages at the top and newest at the bottom.
• Lines of other colors connected languages across out-of-universe time. A line connecting Gnomish to Early Noldorin (which might not need to be on two separate trees of tongues?), then Early Noldorin to Noldorin in the Lhammas versions, then Noldorin to Sindarin.
• Not every depicted version needs a full tree of tongues, you could have just a few languages floating in the void, connected by the out-of-universe lines. Perhaps the names from Lost Road, Eressean and Beleriandic, can pop up there between a before-Lost-Road tree and an after-Lost-Road one, for example, rather than list the names as synonyms next to other names all on the same leaf of one tree. Also Arctic Quenya/Arktik, if that was a linguistic difference and not just a scriptural one.
• Could have "grandfathered-in" languages from previous trees present in later trees in transparent gray, if it's not obvious that those parts of previous trees have been abandoned.
• Can also imagine this as an animated graphic.
  • Names fading into other names when the same language gets a new name (including when it gets a new name at the same time as it gets a different history), the branches fading out and names moving before new branches fade in (or branches could morph instead). Noldorin becoming Sindarin might look like: branches holding Noldorin and Ilkorin (and some Danian?) disappear, Noldorin moves into the space once occupied by Ilkorin while fading into Sindarin, Ilkorin moves either to North Sindarin or Danian morphing into either North Sindarin or Silvan depending on whether the focus is linguistic (probably) or what happens to the language (Silvan is replaced by Sindarin after the First Age as in earlier versions Ilkorin is replaced by Noldorin in the times after Morgoth is defeated).

Template ideas

Moved to: User:Yaulendil/Template ideas

• Changes to Template:AA and Template:GA
  • Mainly related to changing paragraph notes to paragraph commentary, so "Notes" refers specifically to Notes sections between Tolkien's annals and Christopher's commentaries, and using named rather than numbered parameters.
• Seeing where the changes in the above bullet could be appropriate for other referencing templates.
• Is there a general book citation template, for when it isn't a particular Tolkien book with its own reference template? Like if I were citing Flora of Middle-Earth, it might be nice to use a template filling out parameters rather than writing it all out, deciding whether to use an MLA style or try to follow the way TG generally cites proper Tolkien books.
• Changes to Template:User infobox and its parent template:
  • "User Boxes" should be "Userboxes".

Templates, but the visible kind, like navboxes

Languages navbox

(based on elfdict/Eldamo)

Languages

	Q(u)enya (Q.)	Ancient Quenya (AQ.)	Vanyarin (Van.)	Sindarin (S.)	North Sindarin (North S.)	Old Sindarin (OS.)	Telerin (T.)	Ancient Telerin (AT.)	Ilkorin (Ilk.)	Danian/Ossiriandic (Nan.)	Avarin (Av.)	Primitive Elvish (✱)
Early Period	Early Q(u)enya(?) (EQ.)			Gnomish (G.) Early Noldorin (EN)			Solosimpi (Sol.)/Early Telerin (ET)		Early Ilkorin (EIlk.)			Early Primitive Elvish (E✱)
Middle Period	Qenya (MQ.)		Lindarin (Lin.)	Noldorin (N.)		Old Noldorin (ON.)	Middle Telerin (MT.)		Beleriandic (Bel.): Ilkorin (Ilk.)/Doriathrin (Dor.)/Falathrin (Fal.)	Danian/Ossiriandic (Dan.)	Lemberin (Lem.)	Middle Primitive Elvish (M✱)
Late Period	Later Quenya (Q.)	Ancient Quenya (AQ.)	Vanyarin (Van.)	Sindarin (S.)	North Sindarin (North S.)	Old Sindarin (OS.)	Telerin (T.)	Ancient Telerin (AT.)	North Sindarin (North S.)?	Nandorin (Nan.)	Avarin (Av.)	Primitive Elvish (✱)
Fan-made	Neo-Quenya (NQ.)			Neo-Sindarin (NS.)								Neo-Primite Elvish (N✱)

Again, just symbols:

Languages

	(Q.)	(AQ.)	(Van.)	(S.)	(North S.)	(OS.)	(T.)	(AT.)	(Ilk.)	(Nan.)	(Av.)	(✱)
Early Period	(EQ.)			(G.) (EN.)			(Sol.)/(ET)		(EIlk.)			(E✱)
Middle Period	(MQ.)		(Lin.)	(N.)		(ON.)	(MT.)		(Bel.): (Ilk.)/(Dor.)/(Fal.)	(Dan.)	(Lem.)	(M✱)
Late Period	(Q.)	(AQ.)	(Van.)	(S.)	(North S.)	(OS.)	(T.)	(AT.)	(North S.)?	(Nan.)	(Av.)	(✱)
Fan-made	(NQ.)			(NS.)								(N✱)

Languages
Elvish languages
	Q.	AQ.	Van.	S.	North S.	OS.	T.	AT.	Ilk.	Nan.	Av.	✱
Early Period	EQ.			G. EN.			Sol./ET		EIlk.			E✱
Middle Period	MQ.		Lin.	N.		ON.	MT.		Bel.: Ilk./Dor./Fal.	Dan.	Lem.	M✱
Late Period	Q.	AQ.	Van.	S.	North S.	OS.	T.	AT.	North S.?	Nan.	Av.	✱
Neo-languages	NQ.			NS.								N✱
Mannish languages
Middle Period				Tal.
Late Period	Wes.	Ad.	✱Ad.	Ed.: Had./Beor./Hal.	Roh.	Dun.	Eas.	Wos.
Dwarvish languages
Late Period	Kh.	Khx.
Other languages
Late Period	BS.	Val.	Ent.	Unk.	Keladian
Writing systems
Unpublished	Gnomic Letters · Gondolinic Runes · Valmaric script
Published	Sarati	Cirth	Tengwar
Published		Certhas Daeron
Published		Angerthas Daeron Angerthas Moria Angerthas Erebor
Sign languages
?	Mátengwië · Iglishmêk

Other tables below an Elvish language table could include other races' languages. Perhaps italicized links could go to pages for languages which are known to have existed but we don't have any particular words for them?

Also, this probably shouldn't be a table. See the Wikipedia navboxes, but also find one that's arranged in aligned columns and stuff.

Is it ever ^LQ. instead of just Q.?

I think Lin. is just L. in The Etymologies.

Any distinction between Ilkorin and Doriathrin in that Middle Period context? And outside that context? Yes, see the corresponding Eldamo page.

Note also that Beleriandic has been used for both Ilkorin/Doriathrin/Falathrin (where the latter two are related to Ilkorin), and to Gnomish/Noldorin/Sindarin (in Lost Road).

Use brackets [X.] instead of parentheses (X.)?

Where do Primitive Eldarin (if it's distinct from Primitive Quendi) and Common Eldarin fit among all those above?

Are there abbreviations (in scholarship etc.) for Hadorian (Had.?), Halethian (Hal.?), and Beorian (Beor.? Beo.?)?

I wonder if you could get non-attested languages (meaning, languages without any known words from them) to fit onto this navbox. Such languages could be italicized. Problem is, a lot of languages might not even have known names.

Also could break languages into unattested dialects (like the obscure dialects of Sindarin, like West-North Sindarin or whatever), and break up languages that scholarly sites lump together (like separate Eas. words of the Second or Third Ages from Eas. words of the First Age, since they probably have no known relation, and likewise with any Khand or Haradrin words if any exist, and separate Agar words from Tal-Elmar from any Dunlending words of the Third Age Dunlendings).

I would prefer all writing systems to be in their own section divided by out-of-universe era, rather than have the writing systems lumped together with racial spoken languages.

Non-legendarium languages could be in their own section, divided by out-of-universe eras, but maybe the eras would have to be different, since you've got pre-Lost Tales eras like Animalic, maybe Magol.

Imagine something halfway between what I put in the collapsible table above and what TG has for languages now.

Other navbox ideas

Some of these might already exist, I haven't checked.

Navboxes by medium:

• Film adaptations of Tolkien's works
• Television adaptations of Tolkien's works
  • Include in same navbox as films? (exists: Template:Screen; I guess all those foreign TV show adaptations were unauthorized)
• Radio adaptations of Tolkien's works
  • Or just "Audio adaptations"?
• Stage adaptations of Tolkien's works
• Illustrated adaptations of Tolkien's works
  • The Hobbit graphic novel (and its 2024 edition?), maybe the Fleetway serialization... not sure if something like the Pop-Up Book would go here
• Video game adaptations of Tolkien's works
• Roleplaying games adapting Tolkien's works
  • One of these exists, I'm sure.
• Boardgames based on Tolkien's works
  • Would puzzles also be included under this?
• Card games based on Tolkien's works
  • Or just "cards"? To include things like the tarot?
• Pinball machines based on Tolkien's works
  • Or should pinball machines and pinball video games be on the same navbox?
• Recordings of Tolkien's works?
  • Argo Recordings, Library of Congress? Maybe audiobooks?
• Music adaptations of Tolkien's works?
  • Like sanctioned musical works, not musical theater like in 2006, and not music merely inspired by or referencing Tolkien. Stuff like the Godfrey operas (well, that's kind of musical theater), or Johan de Meij's album. But I don't actually know what's "authorized" or "sanctioned" and what's not.
• Cancelled adaptations
• Fan things
  • Fan games
  • Fan mods (exists: Template:Modifications, though it describes some as original games instead of mods, though it's a recreation of Conquest from the ground-up)
    • Fan mods of non-Tolkien games
    • Fan mods of Tolkien games
  • Published fan novels? Not sure what the notability requirements would be.
    • Unauthorized fan novels/fan stories.
    • Authorized fan novels/fan stories? Wasn't there fan fiction in the Mallorn publication, which I think would count as authorized or at least, what's a word for condoning through silence.
    • Fan films. I'm sure there's a navbox for this already.
    • ...Would Neo-languages be considered a fan work in the same category as fan films, fan fiction, fan games...?

Navboxes by... continuity? production company?:

• Peter Jackson series
  • See #Shared universes in adaptations.
• Brian Sibley productions
  • Just two BBC radio shows?
• Rings of Power series
• Bakshi film
  • There are some adaptations like a "film book" and "fotonovel".
• 2006 musical
  • There's also an "Official Stage Companion".
• Rankin-Bass series
  • I think it can be considered a series with shared stuff, since the working title was Frodo: The Hobbit II?
• Mind's Eye NPR productions
  • A Hobbit adaptation and a Lord of the Rings adaptation in the same year.
• Godfrey operas navbox
  • Ops. 8, 46, 47, 48, 49, 71, 73.
• Iron Crown Enterprises
  • Specifically like the shared mythology and designs between MERP and the card game (MECCG). Not sure about the other ICE works; MEP (ME Puzzles), LOTR Adventure Game, Tolkien Quest, ME Quest, ME PBM (Play-by-Mail), '83, '84, '84, '85, '94 boardgames. A bunch of things share the Middle-earth ICE logo with the eye.
  • Include Other Hands here too.
  • Were all the Mithril Miniatures miniatures intended for MERP?
• Fantasy Flight Games
• The One Ring TTRPG
• Rod Inglis things
• Beam Studios games
  • Hard to say if Riders of Rohan is intended to be in the same "series" or interpretation of the world as the text-adventure games. Likewise between the Hobbit text-adventure and the Lord of the Rings text-adventure trilogy.
• Interplay games
• Surreal games
  • Just the Fellowship game and its handheld version. And maybe articles on the cancelled games if there's enough info for them.
• Inevitable games
  • The Hobbit game and its handheld version.
• LOTRO stuff
  • I'm sure this exists already.
• Bo Hanssen stuff
  • The album and the TV show that went with it.

More surely just by production company:

• BBC-produced adaptations of Tolkien's works
• Cubicle 7

User infobox

Could use some updates. Particularly with "Other Profiles", not much reason to have four empty slots when each isn't used, and since Discord is so important now should have a slot for Discord accounts, or a userbox for "this user uses Discord to communicate". Maybe add parameters for BlueSky and YouTube, since those are some social media TG uses. Usernames on the righthand should be labeled with the platform on the lefthand, and platforms without a designated parameter could be defined by the user with a "extra site" parameters. Oh, and switch "User Boxes" to "Userboxes"?

Also, do BG1, BG2, BG3 still work with the new design? I was a little disappointed I couldn't change the colors of my infobox, I haven't seen other accounts that do have different colors.

One solution might be to have three different background color parameters, one for when TG is in dark mode, one for when in pure black mode, one for when in light mode. If pure black mode parameter isn't filled in, it resorts to dark mode. If light mode parameter isn't filled in, maybe it resorts to dark mode, or maybe it resorts to the standard infobox color for light mode, and vice versa for if light mode is filled in and dark mode and pure black mode aren't. Hm, but then the user would probably be expected to make two or three different colors for the text and maybe other stuff, too. Well, this is just an idea for userboxes, for fun, not for character navboxes or something.

Userboxes

Quick userbox ideas

Factions
supports the Shire
supports Rivendell
supports Lothlorien
supports the Grey Havens	or Lindon
supports the Elves of Mirkwood	or Silvan Elves? or Mirkwood?
supports Doriath	or Thingol, or the Iathrim
supports Nargothrond
supports Gondolin
supports Hithlum	or Fingolfin, Fingon, and the Noldor and North Sindar under them
supports Himring	or the Feanorians and Sindar under them
sides with Feanor
sides with Fingolfin
just wants the fighting between Feanor and Fingolfin to stop	images of Manwe and Nerdanel?
supports the Falas	or Cirdan and the Falathrim
supports Ossiriand	or Denethor and the Laiquendi
supports the Havens of Sirion
supports the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains
supports Nogrod
supports Belegost
supports Khazad-dum
supports Erebor
supports the Iron Hills
supports the Longbeards
supports the Broadbeams
supports the Firebeards
supports the Eastern Dwarves
supports the Ironfists
supports the Stiffbeards
supports the Stonefoots
supports the Blacklocks
supports the Petty-dwarves
supports Bree
supports the Bardings	redundant with Dale?
supports the Beornings
supports Umbar
supports the Black Numenoreans
sides with Aldarion
sides with Erendis
recognizes that Aldarion and Erendis both have good points
supports the House of Hador	or "loves"
supports the House of Beor	or "loves"
supports the House of Haleth	or "loves"
supports the house of Bor
supports the house of Ulfang
supports Arnor
supports the Reunited Kingdom
supports Arthedain
supports Cardolann
supports Rhudaur
supports the Easterlings
supports the Wainriders
supports the Balchoth
supports the Variags of Khand
supports the Dunlendings
supports the Haradrim	instead of Harad?
supports the Men of Near Harad
supports the Men of Far Harad
supports the Dead Men of Dunharrow
supports the Rangers of Ithilien	or likes? parallel to the Dunedain of the North, maybe
supports the Dunedain of the North	rename "the Rangers"?
supports the Woodmen of Mirkwood
supports the Lossoth
supports the Forodwaith
supports Galadriel
supports Gil-galad
supports Cirdan
supports Elrond
supports the Blue Wizards
supports Gandalf
supports Elessar
supports Denethor	the Steward
supports the Witch-king
supports Khamul
supports Castamir, the rightful heir of Gondor during the Kin-strife
supports Herumor	from The New Shadow
supports Ungoliant
supports Manwe
supports Ulmo
supports Aule
supports Yavanna
supports Nienna
supports Tulkas
supports the trees	kind of a "neutral" to Good and Evil?
over any other race	it might be worth saying "I support Orcs" even if I don't support them over all other races...
supports Men over any other race	change image from device of Beorians to Mannish-related device
supports the Druedain over any other race
supports the Orcs over any other race
supports the Ents over any other race
supports the Trolls over any other race	or "likes Trolls"
supports the Eagles over any other race	or "likes Eagles"
supports the Wargs over any other race	or "likes Warges"
supports the Ainur over any other race
supports the Half-elves over any other race	or "loves the Half-elves"
supports the Badger-folk over any other race
supports the Otter-folk over any other race	or "supports the Otter-folk over the Badger-folk"
likes dragons	or supports the Dragons over any other race
likes Wolves
likes balrogs
likes Nazgul-birds
likes Nameless Things
likes pearls
likes gems
likes silver
likes gold
likes mithril
is devoted to the precious
will do anything to lay hands on a Silmaril
likes food
likes song and poetry
likes books
likes adventure
loves the bright sword for its sharpness, the arrow for its swiftness, and the warrior for his glory
loves not the bright sword for its sharpness, the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory, only that which they defend
likes friendship
loves the Teleri
loves the Sindar
loves the Nandor
loves the Laiquendi
loves the Silvan Elves
loves the Avari
loves the Feanorians
loves the House of Fingolfin
loves the House of Finarfin
likes the Stoors.
likes the Harfoots.
likes the Fallohides.
supports the Tooks	or Tookland or the Westfarthing? I think there was some factionalism between the west and east?
supports the Brandybucks	or Buckland, or the Marish, or Eastfarthing?
supports Lotho Sacksville-Baggins	and the industry his enterprising friends have brought to the Shire
likes Beren and Luthien
likes Turin
likes Tuor
likes Dior
likes Earendil
Loremasters
This user has a particular understanding of Tolkien's languages.
This user has a particular understanding of Tolkien's fictional histories.
This user has a particular understanding of Tolkien's poetry.
This user has a particular understanding of other versions of Tolkien's legendarium.
This user has a particular understanding of Tolkien's biography.
Interests
This user is interested in characters.
This user is interested in languages.
This user is interested in lore.
This user is interested in maps.
This user is interested in creatures.
Opinions
believes the published Silmarillion contains the true version of the Ruin of Doriath.
believes "Concerning ... The Hoard" contains the true version of the Ruin of Doriath.
believes The Tale of Years contains the true version of the Ruin of Doriath.
believes "The Nauglafring" contains the true version of the Ruin of Doriath.
believes Orcs and Men are the same race.
believes Orcs are descended from Maiar in Orc-form.
believes Orcs are kelvar taught speech.
believes Orcs are automatons animated by Melkor's will.
believes the stone giants are literal giants
believes the stone giants are trolls
believes the stone giants are a metaphor	too much of a misconception to include?
believes snow trolls exist in Middle-earth
believes snow trolls are Mannish myths in Middle-earth
believes "snow troll" is a metaphor made by a writer in Middle-earth
believes "snow troll" is a metaphor made by Tolkien
believes the Silmarillion was brought to us by Aelfwine
believes the Silmarillion is in the last three volumes of the Red Book of Westmarch, transcribed by Bilbo
believes the Silmarillion is a Numenorean writing	or Gondorian?
believes Celeborn was a Prince of Doriath
believes Teleporno was a Teleri of Alqualonde
believes Celeborn was a Silvan Elf
believes Amroth was the son of Galadriel and Celeborn
believes Amroth was the son of Celeborn, but not Galadriel
believes Amroth was the son of Amdir
believes Amrod and Amras both died in the Third Kinslaying
believes Amrod died in the burning of the ships at Losgar
believes Gil-galad was the son of Fingon
believes Gil-galad was the son of Orodreth
believes Gil-galad was the son of Finrod
believes Gil-galad was a descendant of Feanor
the Exile and the Kinslayings were justified	the Exile was against the Feanorians and Noldor, though?
believes Elves can both reembody and be reborn
believes Elves can only reembody, and cannot be reborn
believes the later Durins are descendants of Durin the Deathless
believes the later Durins are Durin the Deathless returned from death
believes Werewolves and Wargs are two different things
believes Werewolves and Wargs are the same thing
believes the Blue Wizards failed in their purpose
believes the Blue Wizards effectively weakened Sauron
believes Radagast failed in his purpose
believes Radagast succeeded in helping the fight against Sauron, even though he seems to have disappeared
believes the Feanorians will never be redeemed
believes Feanor did nothing wrong
believes Feanor did a lot wrong
round world-no	should have a different image than round world-yes?
This user believes both the Flat World and Round World versions of the Silmarillion are true.
This user believes the Boat World version is canonical	with an image of I Vene Kenem. or maybe just "This user believes Arda is shaped like a boat."
This user believes the latest writings of Tolkien should be given priority.
This user believes the writings most consistent with the published works should be given priority.
This user believes all versions of the legendarium are equal.
This user likes to harmonize all versions of the legendarium into one, often using a metatextual reading.
This user likes to see adaptations thoroughly covered on Tolkien Gateway.
This user would prefer coverage of adaptations be kept to a minimum on Tolkien Gateway.
This user prefers many small pages to one large page about related subjects.
This user prefers one large page to many small pages about related subjects.
This user pronounces her name "Miriel Serinde".
This user pronounces her name "Miriel Therinde".	or "This uther pronountheth her name "Miriel Therinde"...? or "Let them sa/si" or whatever it is.
This user would like to have Manthor as legal representation if he ever needs it.
This user likes wildly speculative theories.
This user dislikes wildly speculative theories.
This user thinks the actions of Pelendur and Mardil Voronwe are suspicious	maybe just Mardil Voronwe
This user thinks Hobbits really had waistcoats, umbrellas, clocks and barometers
This user thinks Hobbit waistcoats, umbrellas, clocks and barometers are only flourishes by the "translator" of the Red Book
This user thinks the Nameless Things were not literally older than Sauron
This user thinks the Nameless Things were literally older than Sauron, from before he entered Ea
This user thinks the Nameless Things were literally older than Sauron, and therefore older than Ea
This user thinks the Nameless Things were not a single type of creature, but a general term for many different kinds
This user thinks this is a wooded island in the Sea of Rhun	with a photo of the mysterious "island"
This user thinks this is not a wooded island in the Sea of Rhun, and is probably shoals or sandbanks	with a photo of the mysterious "island"
Language ability
Quenya language ability (qya-0 to qya-5)	or should maybe specify aspects of it; someone might know Elvish words but not Elvish pronunciation...? perhaps "grammar", "pronunciation", "vocabulary", "Tengwar" (spelling), "Cirth" (spelling), "Sarati" (spelling), and maybe as optional parameters rather than their own userboxes. then "Khuzdul", "neo-languages", though "Khuzdul" doesn't fit into Quenya or Sindarin. (probably no one in the world can claim greater than qya-2 or -3, based on Roandil's comments on r/Quenya)
Sindarin language ability (sjn-0 to sjn-5)	even though probably no one in the world can claim greater than sjn-2 or -3, based on Roandil's comments on r/Quenya
This user makes Tengwar calligraphy.
This user writes Tengwar from right to left.
This user writes Tengwar from left to right.
Old English language ability (ang-0 to ang-5)	seems ISO 639-3 code for Old English is "ang"
Old Norse language ability (non-0 to non-5)
Welsh language ability (cy-0 to cy-5)	since it's relevant to Tolkien linguistics, particularly Sindarin and its predecessors
Finnish language ability (fi-0 to fi-5)
Latin language ability (la-0 to la-5)
Miscellaneous
This user often used TG's IRC chat, when it was still active
This user is often present in TG's Discord, and goes by the name User Discord
This user recognizes the importance of using the appropriate copyright template when uploading images.
This user uses the Digital Tolkien Project.
This user likes Tolkien collectibles.
This user likes Tolkien's non-legendarium fiction.
This user likes Christopher Tolkien's writings.
This user likes the Ralph Bakshi film
This user likes the BBC radio series
This user likes the Rankin-Bass films
This user likes the Peter Jackson films
This user likes Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy
This user likes Peter Jackson's The Hobbit trilogy
This user likes the Rings of Power TV series
This user likes stage adaptations of Tolkien's works
This user plays MERP
This user plays The One Ring RPG
This user enjoys Tolkien-inspired music.
This user enjoys Tolkien-inspired folk music.
This user enjoys Tolkien-inspired classical music.
This user enjoys Tolkien-inspired rock music.
This user enjoys Tolkien-inspired metal music.
This user enjoys the artwork of Ted Nasmith.
This user enjoys the artwork of Alan Lee.
This user enjoys the artwork of John Howe.
This user enjoys the artwork of Jenny Dolfen.
This user is also a fan of the Inklings
This user is also a fan of C. S. Lewis
This user is also a fan of Charles Williams
This user is also a fan of Ursula K. Le Guin
This user is also a fan of Frank Herbert
This user is also a fan of George R. R. Martin
This user is also a fan of Brandon Sanderson
This user enjoys the inspirations behind Tolkien's legendarium.
This user enjoys reading Tolkien scholarship.
This user is actually not a huge Tolkien fan.
This user enjoys Tolkien fan fiction.
This user enjoys Tolkien fan films.

There should be a decent mix of righthanded images, lefthanded images, and userboxes with images on both right and left.

Tolkien names in translation template

(I wouldn't be surprised if TG already had something like this.)

Something like Template:Nomenclature on Zelda Wiki, {{nomenclature}}.

Not for in-universe names across different Tolkien conlangs, which I figure TG already has a system for (though perhaps an {{in-universe-nomenclature}}, {{tolk-nomenclature}}, {{legend-nomenclature}} or {{legendarium-nomen}} would be useful in tidying up "Other names" sections?), but instead for names as they've appeared in translations of Tolkien into real non-English languages.

Sauron becomes 索倫 Suǒ lún (although Google Translating it in a whole page gave me the cute Zoro and Zoron) in Chinese, サウロン Sauron in Japanese, Са́урон (Sáuron rather than Sauron?) in Russian.

Or you could see that Broadbeams become Nalgudos in Spanish and Широкозады Shirokozady in Russian. In such cases a literal translation of the names could be helpful to show if the translator shifted the meaning at all. I'm told the translation of "Baggins" into Bolsón is more like "Bag" than "Bag-ins".

There could also be multiple entries for the same language, if different authorized translators came up with different translations. Like Åke Ohlmarks versus Erik Andersson.

Other template ideas

• Is there a way (especially just using plain wikitext, and not having to engage with CSS stuff each time) for an element on a page to figure out what skin and mode is being used at the moment, and change its background-color and color accordingly? Imagine a card which has three pairs of color values, one for dark mode, one for pure black mode, one for light mode. If Citizen isn't being used then it reverts to a default, and if these pairs aren't filled it reverts to the default for Citizen. Would only be useful for things that you only have to set up once. I thought about it just to experiment on my User pages. Like a custom user infobox that's white in dark mode, grey on black mode (except it's already like that), and black in light mode, and likewise with a user signature.
• The pages for individual years: It would be nice if there was a way to get from these pages to the Age-specific Timeline pages, and maybe Template:Ardayearheader could be where you do this. Maybe clicking on the year's Age, the only non-clickable Age?
  • Also, rather tedious to manually add the years to the headers on each page three below and three above of a year you add. By now it's probably not worth changing, since very few years can possibly be added at this point. But I wonder if you could make it so the template searches if there are any page titles numbering below it, stopping once three are added, and likewise with years numbering above it. Then how you'd deal with the Years of the Trees and so on.
• I like Template:App on Wookieepedia, {{appearances}}. 95% sure they wouldn't be at home on TG for various reasons. A way of keeping track of each creature, item, character, et cetera that appears in a given chapter, book, story, poem, adaptation episode.

Guides

Ruin of Doriath differences

Perhaps I'll make a section or a sandbox page listing aspect of the Ruin of Doriath story unique to Christopher and Guy Kavriel Kay's version. (Things like, I think, Melian leaving before the Dwarvish attack on the Thousand Caves, Mablung dying before or during the Second Kinslaying [I think Aelfwine and Dirhaval implies Mablung survived to the Havens of Sirion], the Nauglamir existing before Hurin entered Nargothrond, Hurin entering Nargothrond alone rather than with an outlaw posse, Hurin realizing he was mistaken about Thingol and Morwen's culpability, the Nauglamir being cursed by the Lord of Nogrod.)

Ruin of Doriath, Christopher & GGK vs. Tolkien

Versions of the Nauglamir story

• sketches of the Nauglafring story in the Lost Tales II chapter "Turambar and the Foaloke"
• Lost Tales II, "The Nauglafring"
• implications from Lost Tales II chapter "The Tale of Earendel"
• Sketch of the Mythology §14
• Quenta §14
• Earliest Annals, annals 199 to 206
• Later Annals, annals 299 [499] to 306 [506]
• The Wanderings of Hurin (including intimations of Hurin in Nargothrond)
• Tale of Years Scheme A
• Tale of Years Scheme B
• Tale of Years Scheme C
• Tale of Years Scheme D
• Letter 247
• Concerning ... 'The Hoard'
• The History of Galadriel and Celeborn (last paragraph before Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn begins, third paragraph of Tolkien's Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn)
• Maeglin (concerning which of the two fords over Gelion the Dwarves took)

Things I think are Christopher and GKK's original ideas

• The Nauglamir having been forged for and worn by Felagund, or even preexisting the delivery of anything by Hurin to Thingol.
• Hurin arriving at Nargothrond alone, rather than with numerous outlaws.
• Hurin realizing he was wrong about Thingol and Melian's culpability, and his scorn and fury leaving him.
• The Nauglamir being forged within Menegroth, rather than in the Blue Mountains from Glaurung's gold and delivered back to Thingol in Menegroth?
• Thingol being killed by the Dwarven smiths who fashioned the Nauglamir, or within Menegroth at all.
  • I only recall him being killed while on a hunt that took him beyond the Girdle.
• Melian leaving Doriath before the battle at the Thousand Caves?
  • The earliest I can remember her leaving is after giving the Nauglamir to Beren and before the Battle of Sarn Athrad occurs.
• The proper name "Battle of the Thousand Caves"?
• Mablung dies during the battle of the Thousand Caves, or at any point in the story.
  • Since Mablung is a source for Dirhaval's composing the Narn, I suspect he was alive in the Havens before the Third Kinslaying.
• An unnamed messenger from Doriath tells Beren of what happened to Thingol?
  • In all versions where this is specified, I think it's Melian? Or even a still-alive Huan? Maybe Huan had something to do with finding the Elves?
• The Lord of Nogrod puts the curse on the treasure.
  • I'm only aware of Mim ever putting a curse on it, in very early versions sort of working with Glorund's underlying curse.
• Dior is killed within Menegroth specifically?
  • It might happen so in some earlier versions, but in Tale of Years Scheme D 2 arguably he dies on the east-marches of Doriath.
• Nimloth/Lindis/Elulin dies during the Second Kinslaying, or at any point.
  • The Tale of Years at least has her journey to Ossiriand, and then the Havens, with Elwing.

Things I think are Tolkien's ideas, and where they can be found in the texts

To be added

Characters with changing family members

It'd be nice to have a lot of this information all in one place, even if just in the OVOTLs for each character.

Obviously this is not complete.

Noleme/Golfinweg/Gelmir?/Finwe

• • as Noleme?
    • sons
      • older brothers?
      • Finrun (Old English name)
        • On Finrun's TG page, it seems like Finrun was never used in the Noleme-layer?
  • as Golfinweg
    • sons
      • Gelmir
    • grandsons
      • Fingolfin
    • great-grandsons
      • Turgon
  • as Gelmir
    • sons
      • Golfin
      • Delin
      • Luthien
  • as Finwe
    • wives
      • Indis (mother of Feanor)
      • Miriel
      • Indis (mother of Fingolfin)
    • sons and daughters
      • Feanor
      • Findis
      • Fingolfin
      • Faniel
      • Finvain/Irime/Lalwen
      • Finrod/Finarfin
      • Finrun Felageomor (OE Quenta Noldorinwa; alliteration and length reminds me a lot of Finrod Felagund?)

Feanor

• fathers
  • Bruithwir
  • Finwe
• grandfathers
  • Maidros

Fingolfin

• fathers
  • Gelmir
  • Finwe
• wives
  • Anaire (is this the only version of a wife of Fingolfin ever mentioned; briefly, as a note when Turgon's Anaire is renamed Elenwe and said to perish in Ice instead of stay in Tirion? and is she a Noldo there or did Christopher add that?)
• sons and daughters
  • Finrod
  • Turgon
  • Isfin/Aredhel
  • other daughters of Fingolfin besides Isfin/Aredhel
  • Argon

Finrod/Finarfin

• sons and daughters
  • Inglor/Finrod
  • Orodreth
  • Angrod
  • Aegnor
  • Galadriel
• grandchildren
  • Orodreth (son of Angrod)
    • See Orodreth's family to add to grandchildren and great-grandchildren via them, depending on what relation Orodreth had to Finarfin in the layers in which he had them.
  • Gil-galad (son of Inglor/Finrod)
• great-grandchildren
  • Gil-galad (son of Orodreth)
  • Finduilas (daughter of Orodreth)
• descendants
  • Gildor Inglorion (via Inglor)?

Finweg/Fingweg/Finbrand/Fingon/Findor?

• wives
  • wife (did she ever have a name?)
  • explicitly no wife (final Shibboleth)
• sons or daughters
  • Fingar (OE Quenta Noldorinwa)
    • This is a rare one! I guess not connected by links to Fingon's OVOTL?
  • Gil-galad
  • Ernis/Erien (pre- or early-Shibboleth)
  • Finbor (pre- or early-Shibboleth)
  • explicitly no sons or daughters (final Shibboleth)

Turgon

• wives
  • Alaire/Anaire the Vanya (who only ever stayed in Aman...? and did she actually have the name of Anaire or is Christopher or a TG editor applying that to the pre-1970, pre-1959-Elenwe name retroactively?)
  • Elenwe/Alaire?/Anaire? (who only ever died in the Ice...? did she continue to only die in the Ice when she was Alaire and Anaire in 1970?)
• daughters
  • Idril
• sisters
  • Isfin/Aredhel
• sister-sons
  • Maeglin
• unknown?
  • Glorfindel?

Inglor/Finrod Felagund

• wives and girlfriends (or whatever term they would use)
  • Meril, wife of Finrod
  • Amarie, girlfriend of Finrod
• sons or daughters
  • Gildor Inglorion?
  • explicitly no sons or daughters (both before and after next two ideas were considered and discarded?)
  • Orodreth (in what layers?)
  • Gil-galad, son of Finrod (in what layers?)

Orodreth

• fathers
  • no named father (Lost Tales and Lay of Children of Hurin both?)
  • Finrod/Finarfin
  • Ingor/Finrod Felagund
  • Angrod
• wives
  • unnamed wife, kindred unknown?, not mother of Gil-galad
  • unnamed wife, Sindar, mother of Gil-galad (North Sindar or just Sindar generally?)
• sons or daughters
  • Halmir/Haldir (back to Lay of Children of Hurin, before Ordhelm and Ordlaf in Old English Quenta Noldorinwa, but I don't think Orodlin shows up until after those two names, and maybe Halmir/Haldir = Ordhelm and Orodlin = Ordlaf or the other way around; this guy seems to be a hunter, and gets killed, hardening Orodreth's heart)
  • Finduilas (Lay of Children of Hurin onwards?)
  • Ordhelm (OE Quenta Noldorinwa)
  • Ordlaf (OE Quenta Noldorinwa)
  • Orodlin (Genealogies, pre-1937)
  • Gil-galad (1965 onwards)

Gil-galad

• ancestors
  • Feanor (Fall of Numenor? what layer was this?)
• fathers
  • (see above)

Celebrimbor

Celeborn

Elulin/Lindis/Nimloth

Amroth

• fathers
  • Celeborn
  • Amdir
• mothers
  • Galadriel
  • Celeborn's previous wife/lover before they separated and he married Galadriel
  • unnamed mother, wife of Amdir

Olwe

Earwen

Sometimes she's the daughter of Olwe, sometimes she's the sister of Olwe, Elwe, et cetera.

Indis

Ingwe

Finduilas

• fathers
  • Galweg
  • Orodreth

Isfin/Aredhel

The version where she was born before the Elves reached Aman?

Beren

• fathers
  • Egnor
  • Barahir
• sisters
  • no sister?
  • Hiril

Random messing around

Testing a signature

Yaulendil ^{(Talk/Contribs/Edits)}

Testing it now:

Yaulendil ^{(Talk/Contribs/Edits)}

Yaulendil ^{(Talk/Contribs/Edits)} 08:13, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

08:13, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

Seems to work.

Testing to see if ǒ works

Since it failed at Suǒ lún.

Suǒ lún Suǒlún Suǒlún

ǒ

ǒ

from the special characters menu: ǒ Ǒ ô Ô ǒ Ǒ ô Ô Suǒ lún Suǒ lún Suǒlún Suǒlún

Suô lún Suô lún Suôlún Suôlún

Suǒ lún Suǒ lún ǒ

Suǒ lún Suǒ lún ǒ

Suǒ lún Suǒ lún ǒ

Works with Vector, Vector legacy, and Monobook, does not work with Timeless or of course Citizen. Works all the time with all headers.

Testing if unnamed parameters can be used like named ones

{{AA|131}}, {{AA|131|n}}

J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), Morgoth's Ring, "Part Two. The Annals of Aman": §131, J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), Morgoth's Ring, "Part Two. The Annals of Aman": Note on §131

{{AA|1=131}}, {{AA|1=131|2=n}}

J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), Morgoth's Ring, "Part Two. The Annals of Aman": §131, J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), Morgoth's Ring, "Part Two. The Annals of Aman": Note on §131

Yep, that works. It's relevant for when the details version of sub-references becomes available.

Experiments in sub-referencing

Can I sub-reference a sub-reference?

Thus begins the Halaquenta.

The Halaquenta reaches a climax.

Well, no, that doesn't work. "Extending <ref> tags more than one level deep is not allowed."

Checking to see if Cite DTP works with Unfinished Tales yet

• Aldarion and Erendis, p. 193, 2021 illustrated edition; possibly 730 voyage, but technically it says "Within three years".
  • Hm, it ends in a comma.
  • It would be silly to imagine this voyage happening in 727 to 729, but technically possible? Then the return would be anytime 730 to 732.
• Aldarion and Erendis, p. 193, one sentence later, he was 3 years abroad so arguably 733, his return. Actually this is still the same reference as last, because it's the same paragraph.
• Aldarion and Erendis, p. 193, same sentence, establishes that it was four years on his third voyage, when the sentence after establishes is when he was 39, so 739... so technically you'd need both of these sentences? Actually you'd need both paragraphs, the first beginning on 192 and this on 193.
  • I wonder if there's an easier way to do a range of passages? Besides just replacing the "and" in this first reference with a "through". But even then that doesn't spit out the range of sentences in a readable format, only in terms of the links.
    • Same but for two paragraphs or a range of paragraphs.
• Aldarion and Erendis, p. 197, Meneldur rescinds Aldarion's authority, 824.
• Aldarion and Erendis, p. 198, Meneldur restores Aldarion's authority, 843.
  • Oops, so these are paragraphs, not sentences within paragraphs?
• Aldarion and Erendis, p. 199, voyage to Andunie in 850.
• Aldarion and Erendis, p. 203; is 846 the year Aldarion sees Erendis riding through the forest? Says it's "now fifteen years gone", and presumably the same year as the forswearing of the wedding, 18 years since he returned to Numenor in 843, which is 861 and already on the timeline.
• Aldarion and Erendis, p. 205; should this be the citation for "The first shadow appears"?
• Aldarion and Erendis, pp. 211-2. Establishes year Ancalime learns Aldarion is her father. Second year after Aldarion's sailing, that year passed, so third year after Aldarion's sailing, in the autumn, then the next year, fourth year after Aldarion's sailing, Ancalime is seven, summer of that year she learns the truth. Just need two paragraphs, one on each page.
• Citing The Silmarillion just to compare.

Playing with the § symbol

• Method 1: §
• Method 2: §
• Method 3: §
  • works.
• In a page reference: The entire universe was created long before VY 1.^:§1:§§1-2
  • works too.

Playing with quote parameters in the reference page template

• Aldarion left on his second voyage in 730 or something.^{:whichever page it was, MouseOver for the quote hopefully}
  • Hm, I can't get it to work yet. Text turns red between a | and an = though.